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We have very different experiences of the global banking system, it seems. To me, US banks are archaic, slow, and backward—and the UK has to be in for close sec

We have very different experiences of the global banking system, it seems. To me, US banks are archaic, slow, and backward—and the UK has to be in for close second so it isn't a fair comparison at all. I have lived/banked in New Zealand, Canada and The Netherlands, all of which are delightfully eons ahead of the US banks almost across the board. For example: - P2P or bill payments in Canada can be made to any email address and received within 60 minutes for free. - Splitting a bill or requesting payment in Netherlands is trivial, because the banks all allow you to generate a URL and send it to anyone for instant payment. - Transfers in NZ are realtime, instant, and validated before you send to ensure its the right person. You can also create accounts online with your government login. Touch to pay exists everywhere since at least 2010. Meanwhile in the US, checks exist and people go crazy when Apple Pay is accepted at a single chain store. I've never touched a check, and I hope I never need to—and the examples of hoops to jump through are likely because you're new! KYC regulations tend to relax over time, and it can be painful at first almost everywhere. The fintech revolution in Europe between N26, Revolut and the dizzying array of others is evidence we don't need, or want, US banks to do anything. It won't help.

flexie 7y ago
I second that. Most Europeans who have been exposed to American banks find them years if not decades behind. But investment banks and consumer banks are two different beasts entirely.
kolbe 7y ago
I don't deny that these other systems may be better than the US's, but you do a disservice to your own argument when you intentionally leave out parts of the US money transfer system that don't help your argument. We all know about debit cards, credit cards, venmo, zelle, the fed wire, &c. No need to pretend that the US is just a bunch of people handing paper checks over to one-another.
- fnord123 7y ago
  The US doesn't use IBAN. WTF, America. Sort it out.
- mcv 7y ago
  I'm not familiar with venmo and zelle, but from what I've heard about them, debit cards in the US sound like they're not much better than credit cards.
  - kolbe 7y ago
    > debit cards in the US sound like they're not much better than credit cards the are all better than paper checks
    - mcv 7y ago
      I don't doubt it, but in many countries, paper checks already died out a long time ago, and credit cards aren't really catching on for anything other than online purchases abroad, because we already have better solutions for most of the things they do.
      - jandrese 7y ago
        As an American I write exactly 4 checks per year. Two for county taxes and two for town taxes. Both have a credit card option I can use, but it's through a third party that charges extra for it.
  - bin0 7y ago
    Venmo and zelle are two apps that allow instant p2p payments. Venmo was first; zelle is the banking sector's answer (a whole bunch of them got together and agreed to support it). Both are widely compatible; zelle has no transfer fees. That sounds just about as good as anything else I've heard of in NZ, and it has the added advantage of having an external competitor (venmo) pushing the banks. In other words, not everything is under one roof, and I believe this will actually drive innovation in the long run.
    - wyre 7y ago
      I'm not familiar with zelle, but I know venmo (and competitors like Cash app) take a business day to transfer the money into your account. Or they can do it faster for a fee.
FabHK 7y ago
Indeed. I had bank accounts in 6 or 7 jurisdictions, and used mobile payments (mPesa, GoJek, etc.) in many more, and the US banks were by far the worst, most primitive, archaic, least convenient, most punitively expensive (in a mean-spirited way) of the bunch. It is no wonder that the (terrible, and expensive) PayPal originated in the US, because the extant alternatives were so primitive (sending checks by mail? seriously?) - other countries had simple, fast, cheap domestic payment systems for ever. UK and related systems (Ireland, Hong Kong, Channel Islands) second worst. European continent - what a pleasure by comparison. Everyone has their account number on their website or stationery, and if you want to transfer money, you transfer money. Of course, I understand that US banking has been catching up to Europe and Africa and Asia. Enjoy. EDIT to add: As many point out, that's obviously retail. Can't beat US banks in investment banking - Swiss banks and Deutsche and HSBC etc. have been trying.
- xioxox 7y ago
  In my experience UK banks are quite a bit better than German, though that's changing. UK has had almost instant payments for several years. In addition most of the German banks think 5 character passwords are sufficient.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  Big difference is that US banks usually charge no fees. Not for a monthly account, not for a credit card, not for a debit card. Probably not even teller services. And if you go to a US teller, they won’t direct you to an ATM. From what I’ve seen in France, bank branches are increasingly cashless. Need $5k? Go to the teller and ask them to open a window on your account, and then make 5x transactions at the ATM (with its 1k limits).
  - wozniacki 7y ago
    I've seen UK banks (to be fair not just banks even wireless service providers) charge for a phone call to their customer service number! (the equivalent of a U.S. toll-free service).
    - 7y ago
AmericanChopper 7y ago
> Transfers in NZ are realtime, instant, and validated before you send to ensure its the right person. You can also create accounts online with your government login. Touch to pay exists everywhere since at least 2010. I know that this is an outright fiction, so I’m leaning towards doubting the rest of your post too. Transfers in NZ are only instant if you’re transferring to somebody in the same bank. I don’t know what identity validation you’re talking about, NZ banks just take an account number for transfers. I’ve never seen a bank use government login in place of AML. Touch pay is not widely adopted at all in NZ, most merchants hate it because of the extra fees, in recent time it’s become somewhat common at larger merchants. Literally everything you said about banking in NZ is either outright false or a major exaggeration.
- ajdlinux 7y ago
  As an Australian who travels to NZ reasonably regularly the lack of touch payments, and even credit card acceptance (vs NZ EFTPOS acceptance) is noticeable. Australia has now launched real time payments though, so I hope NZ catches up before too long...
- toomanybeersies 7y ago
  Last I checked, inter-bank transfers in NZ were hourly now. They're instant with Osko payments in Australia though, which is nice, and they include identity validation too. Paywave/paypass is also almost universal in Australia too, when I went back to NZ a couple of weeks ago it was noticeable how many shops didn't accept contactless payment.
  - AmericanChopper 7y ago
    > Last I checked, inter-bank transfers in NZ were hourly now Depends on the bank, I think most of the big ones do. Some still do overnight. But remember, that’s on each side of the transaction, so a transfer between banks that settle hourly can still take a few hours.
- davchana 7y ago
  Any bank to any bank transfers in India are literally instant now, via UPI or Unified Payment Interface. A central office gets all incoming requests, & settles the txns. Users & Merchants get id like user@bank, merchants can send a collect request; users can send money, protected through 4-8 char long pin.
bin0 7y ago
It seems that while banks themselves do fewer things around p2p payments (which seems to be the over-arching issue you have with American banks), other private companies are greatly improving on this. The banks also banded together and launched their own knock-off, zelle (no fees even across banks, and most banks work with it). Not perfect, but not as bad as others have made it sound. Venmo, the competitor which prompted banks to make zelle, is also alive and kicking. Importantly, it's not owned by the banks, so it's an external competitor which will help drive innovation. I believe that having a non-bank as a market leader will help push American banking ahead better than the NZ banks deciding to implement something out of benevolence. Certainly not as bad as having to get a physical machine to do online banking; my Lord but that's byzantine. I wonder if some one could emulate the hardware device.
- privateSFacct 7y ago
  With Zelle you are at big risk with misdirect funds, proving who got funds, almost no resolution if an issue comes up. I'd be careful with it until things settle down.
- MrRadar 7y ago
  The Federal Reserve is finally taking notice too. In addition to modernizing ACH over the past few years (so that payments can be settled on the same business day instead of over 3 business days) it has finally decided to create its own instant payments system called FedNow. Unfortunately that won't be ready until 2023 but Zelle and Venmo should fill the gaps until then.
wozniacki 7y ago
Why do European vendors have such a hard time accepting credit / debit cards and still insist on cash? I know of instances where a credit card from Amsterdam, the Netherlands is not even accepted at a shop in the Swabia region of Germany. I also know of instances where they outright refuse to accept Visa and only deal with Mastercard and such - that too issued in Germany!!. What's the point of a credit card if you cannot travel with it? Why are cash transactions so much more prevalent in Europe? I've seen the same in Japan but that's entirely a different case. [1] For Many Germans, Cash Is Still King https://www.npr.org/2019/06/09/728323278/for-many-germans-cash-is-still-king https://www.npr.org/2019/06/09/728323278/for-many-germans-ca...
- iagovar 7y ago
  In my experience that's mainly in Germany. I've paid with my spanish debit card in many countries without any problem.
- MrRadar 7y ago
  I think that's more a Germany thing than a European thing. In Sweden cash has almost been completely eliminated from their economy to the point that some retail banks no longer deal in cash.
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    More fool them - wait until they have a major banking computer crash / cyber attack.
    - asciident 7y ago
      And then what? They have to close for a few hours? A few excited local reporters coming by?
      - C1sc0cat 7y ago
        Seeing a Bank run with lines of citizens queuing at banks does tend to concentrate politicians minds.
lacker 7y ago
- P2P or bill payments in Canada can be made to any email address and received within 60 minutes for free. - Splitting a bill or requesting payment in Netherlands is trivial, because the banks all allow you to generate a URL and send it to anyone for instant payment. These are instant in the U.S., use the Zelle app.
- havetocharge 7y ago
  Is a Zelle account required to receive a payment?
  - apaprocki 7y ago
    You just have to use a bank connected to Zelle and it’s done through the bank’s mobile app. There’s 400+ now apparently so it’s hard to be banked and not be connected somehow. The alphabetic list is on their site.
tlb 7y ago
I agree, for small transactions. For large transactions (above $10k), US and UK banks are great. Fedwire can move any amount in an hour for $30, and it’s very safe. Try moving $50k through Revolut and they shut you down. Even though small transactions are the huge majority, most of the money is in large transactions.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
dmix 7y ago
Have to agree re: Canada. Our banks are top notch technology wise and customer service. They are also conservative and don't gamble with our economy. The banks are also spreading globally. I've been able to use different Canadian debit cards in quite a few Caribbean and Mexican cities. More branches are even in the US.

flexie 7y ago

I second that. Most Europeans who have been exposed to American banks find them years if not decades behind. But investment banks and consumer banks are two different beasts entirely.

kolbe 7y ago

I don't deny that these other systems may be better than the US's, but you do a disservice to your own argument when you intentionally leave out parts of the US money transfer system that don't help your argument. We all know about debit cards, credit cards, venmo, zelle, the fed wire, &c. No need to pretend that the US is just a bunch of people handing paper checks over to one-another.

fnord123 7y ago
The US doesn't use IBAN. WTF, America. Sort it out.
mcv 7y ago
I'm not familiar with venmo and zelle, but from what I've heard about them, debit cards in the US sound like they're not much better than credit cards.
- kolbe 7y ago
  > debit cards in the US sound like they're not much better than credit cards the are all better than paper checks
  - mcv 7y ago
    I don't doubt it, but in many countries, paper checks already died out a long time ago, and credit cards aren't really catching on for anything other than online purchases abroad, because we already have better solutions for most of the things they do.
    - jandrese 7y ago
      As an American I write exactly 4 checks per year. Two for county taxes and two for town taxes. Both have a credit card option I can use, but it's through a third party that charges extra for it.
- bin0 7y ago
  Venmo and zelle are two apps that allow instant p2p payments. Venmo was first; zelle is the banking sector's answer (a whole bunch of them got together and agreed to support it). Both are widely compatible; zelle has no transfer fees. That sounds just about as good as anything else I've heard of in NZ, and it has the added advantage of having an external competitor (venmo) pushing the banks. In other words, not everything is under one roof, and I believe this will actually drive innovation in the long run.
  - wyre 7y ago
    I'm not familiar with zelle, but I know venmo (and competitors like Cash app) take a business day to transfer the money into your account. Or they can do it faster for a fee.

FabHK 7y ago

Indeed. I had bank accounts in 6 or 7 jurisdictions, and used mobile payments (mPesa, GoJek, etc.) in many more, and the US banks were by far the worst, most primitive, archaic, least convenient, most punitively expensive (in a mean-spirited way) of the bunch. It is no wonder that the (terrible, and expensive) PayPal originated in the US, because the extant alternatives were so primitive (sending checks by mail? seriously?) - other countries had simple, fast, cheap domestic payment systems for ever. UK and related systems (Ireland, Hong Kong, Channel Islands) second worst. European continent - what a pleasure by comparison. Everyone has their account number on their website or stationery, and if you want to transfer money, you transfer money. Of course, I understand that US banking has been catching up to Europe and Africa and Asia. Enjoy. EDIT to add: As many point out, that's obviously retail. Can't beat US banks in investment banking - Swiss banks and Deutsche and HSBC etc. have been trying.

xioxox 7y ago
In my experience UK banks are quite a bit better than German, though that's changing. UK has had almost instant payments for several years. In addition most of the German banks think 5 character passwords are sufficient.
Scoundreller 7y ago
Big difference is that US banks usually charge no fees. Not for a monthly account, not for a credit card, not for a debit card. Probably not even teller services. And if you go to a US teller, they won’t direct you to an ATM. From what I’ve seen in France, bank branches are increasingly cashless. Need $5k? Go to the teller and ask them to open a window on your account, and then make 5x transactions at the ATM (with its 1k limits).
- wozniacki 7y ago
  I've seen UK banks (to be fair not just banks even wireless service providers) charge for a phone call to their customer service number! (the equivalent of a U.S. toll-free service).
  - 7y ago

AmericanChopper 7y ago

> Transfers in NZ are realtime, instant, and validated before you send to ensure its the right person. You can also create accounts online with your government login. Touch to pay exists everywhere since at least 2010. I know that this is an outright fiction, so I’m leaning towards doubting the rest of your post too. Transfers in NZ are only instant if you’re transferring to somebody in the same bank. I don’t know what identity validation you’re talking about, NZ banks just take an account number for transfers. I’ve never seen a bank use government login in place of AML. Touch pay is not widely adopted at all in NZ, most merchants hate it because of the extra fees, in recent time it’s become somewhat common at larger merchants. Literally everything you said about banking in NZ is either outright false or a major exaggeration.

ajdlinux 7y ago
As an Australian who travels to NZ reasonably regularly the lack of touch payments, and even credit card acceptance (vs NZ EFTPOS acceptance) is noticeable. Australia has now launched real time payments though, so I hope NZ catches up before too long...
toomanybeersies 7y ago
Last I checked, inter-bank transfers in NZ were hourly now. They're instant with Osko payments in Australia though, which is nice, and they include identity validation too. Paywave/paypass is also almost universal in Australia too, when I went back to NZ a couple of weeks ago it was noticeable how many shops didn't accept contactless payment.
- AmericanChopper 7y ago
  > Last I checked, inter-bank transfers in NZ were hourly now Depends on the bank, I think most of the big ones do. Some still do overnight. But remember, that’s on each side of the transaction, so a transfer between banks that settle hourly can still take a few hours.
davchana 7y ago
Any bank to any bank transfers in India are literally instant now, via UPI or Unified Payment Interface. A central office gets all incoming requests, & settles the txns. Users & Merchants get id like user@bank, merchants can send a collect request; users can send money, protected through 4-8 char long pin.

bin0 7y ago

It seems that while banks themselves do fewer things around p2p payments (which seems to be the over-arching issue you have with American banks), other private companies are greatly improving on this. The banks also banded together and launched their own knock-off, zelle (no fees even across banks, and most banks work with it). Not perfect, but not as bad as others have made it sound. Venmo, the competitor which prompted banks to make zelle, is also alive and kicking. Importantly, it's not owned by the banks, so it's an external competitor which will help drive innovation. I believe that having a non-bank as a market leader will help push American banking ahead better than the NZ banks deciding to implement something out of benevolence. Certainly not as bad as having to get a physical machine to do online banking; my Lord but that's byzantine. I wonder if some one could emulate the hardware device.

privateSFacct 7y ago
With Zelle you are at big risk with misdirect funds, proving who got funds, almost no resolution if an issue comes up. I'd be careful with it until things settle down.
MrRadar 7y ago
The Federal Reserve is finally taking notice too. In addition to modernizing ACH over the past few years (so that payments can be settled on the same business day instead of over 3 business days) it has finally decided to create its own instant payments system called FedNow. Unfortunately that won't be ready until 2023 but Zelle and Venmo should fill the gaps until then.

wozniacki 7y ago

Why do European vendors have such a hard time accepting credit / debit cards and still insist on cash? I know of instances where a credit card from Amsterdam, the Netherlands is not even accepted at a shop in the Swabia region of Germany. I also know of instances where they outright refuse to accept Visa and only deal with Mastercard and such - that too issued in Germany!!. What's the point of a credit card if you cannot travel with it? Why are cash transactions so much more prevalent in Europe? I've seen the same in Japan but that's entirely a different case. [1] For Many Germans, Cash Is Still King https://www.npr.org/2019/06/09/728323278/for-many-germans-cash-is-still-king https://www.npr.org/2019/06/09/728323278/for-many-germans-ca...

iagovar 7y ago
In my experience that's mainly in Germany. I've paid with my spanish debit card in many countries without any problem.
MrRadar 7y ago
I think that's more a Germany thing than a European thing. In Sweden cash has almost been completely eliminated from their economy to the point that some retail banks no longer deal in cash.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  More fool them - wait until they have a major banking computer crash / cyber attack.
  - asciident 7y ago
    And then what? They have to close for a few hours? A few excited local reporters coming by?
    - C1sc0cat 7y ago
      Seeing a Bank run with lines of citizens queuing at banks does tend to concentrate politicians minds.

lacker 7y ago

- P2P or bill payments in Canada can be made to any email address and received within 60 minutes for free. - Splitting a bill or requesting payment in Netherlands is trivial, because the banks all allow you to generate a URL and send it to anyone for instant payment. These are instant in the U.S., use the Zelle app.

havetocharge 7y ago
Is a Zelle account required to receive a payment?
- apaprocki 7y ago
  You just have to use a bank connected to Zelle and it’s done through the bank’s mobile app. There’s 400+ now apparently so it’s hard to be banked and not be connected somehow. The alphabetic list is on their site.

tlb 7y ago

I agree, for small transactions. For large transactions (above $10k), US and UK banks are great. Fedwire can move any amount in an hour for $30, and it’s very safe. Try moving $50k through Revolut and they shut you down. Even though small transactions are the huge majority, most of the money is in large transactions.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

dmix 7y ago

Have to agree re: Canada. Our banks are top notch technology wise and customer service. They are also conservative and don't gamble with our economy. The banks are also spreading globally. I've been able to use different Canadian debit cards in quite a few Caribbean and Mexican cities. More branches are even in the US.