9 ms·

They are pushing production and engineering to anywhere not the USA, so this trend of having fewer workers isn't going to stop until all that's left of GM is th

by AmVess 7y ago

They are pushing production and engineering to anywhere not the USA, so this trend of having fewer workers isn't going to stop until all that's left of GM is the headquarters. I'm not Chicken-Littling either. This trend has been many decades in the making, and it only has one logical endpoint. I was looking at their trucks, and left the showroom when I saw one that had 45% domestic content. I bought a truck that had the most USA content...a Honda Ridgeline.

pkaye 7y ago
> They are pushing production and engineering to anywhere not the USA... How much is outside of Detroit vs outside of US?
sharkweek 7y ago
As someone in the market for a truck, why specifically USA and not somewhere else? I’m looking at the Toyota Tacoma as my number one choice, but this is not a strongly held desire if there is something better.
- track_me_now 7y ago
  Well first a Tacoma is actually a truck; even Honda states the ridgeline is not intended to compete with traditional trucks, is not built for towing and uses a unibody construction. Tacomas are expensive, the dealers don't deal and they hold their resale value. The new (2019) Tacoma trades heavily on it's reputation IMO, without really adding much new over the past 3-4 years. It's a real off-road vehicle though, if that's important to you. In this format/size I'd suggest you take a look at the new Ranger. It's nothing fancy but much more affordable. It's pretty much the polar opposite of the Ridgeline.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    I like that Toyota hasn’t touched Tacoma/4Runner. It’s already perfect as is, no additional bells and whistles were needed other than CarPlay.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- bitexploder 7y ago
  I’m a fan of Ford trucks myself, drive a F150 for off-roading. Tacoma and Jeep Wrangler out here in CO are extremely popular and have great reputations. The build quality on Ford stuff is fine. I think the recommendation for Ranger is solid, but I am not sure if it is better. If you are really serious about off-roading full sized trucks are not ideal (too wide/long).
  - cr0sh 7y ago
    From what I can gather - and this is mere speculation on my part - the new Ranger is merely a version of the 1990s F150 dressed up. Compare the size of an early 90s F150 with that of today's new Ranger, and you'll see what I mean (while you're at it, compare the sizes of an early 90s F250 with today's F150). I honestly think (I have no proof) that what Ford did was kill off the Ranger (ie - stop rebadging them from Mazda), because of CAFE rule changes, but then they found that even the F150 was too small, too. So they moved the F250 down a notch (it became the 150), and maybe the 350 too (it became the 250). I'm not sure about higher numbers; most people never bought anything bigger than the 350, at least on the consumer end (I have seen some "consumer" 450s and 750s on the road - but they are very rare). Then people clamor for the Ranger (have you ever tried to find an original Ford Ranger that is in normal condition, in good repair, and hasn't been "pre-runnered"? Not easy - and when you do, it ain't cheap, either - wish I never gave up my 94) - so they dig out the old F150 - which is smaller than today's F150, dress it up and tada: "new Ranger!" Again - this is just my impression; I'm not sure of the truth or facts or anything. I'll tell you where Ford also made a mistake: They announced a "mini-Raptor" - but afaik, it was only released in Australia (and I think it had a diesel engine option to boot!). Gah!
- sh-run 7y ago
  I absolutely love my Tacoma. It's a 2009 4dr TRD Sport with 164,000 miles. I have no desire to 'upgrade' to something newer. My only regret is getting the short bed, I sleep in the back a few times a year and it'd be nice to not need to sleep in the diagonal. The people I know who own the 3rd gen Tacomas seem to like them just as much as I like mine.
  - sharkweek 7y ago
    I’ve got a 2000 4Runner that is still running great, but looking to switch to a truck in the next couple of years. My thought, years ago, was to wait for the 4Runner to break down then upgrade, but I’m now starting to wonder if that’s still a few years (decades?!) off.
    - frankharv 7y ago
      Wow I have the 2000 RAV4 and the same opinion. 5 years ago I started thinking of buying something new but the RAV4 keeps purring. 240,xxx miles and you would never know it.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      I’m in the same boat, so I installed a Sony CarPlay unit in, and accepted that I won’t be able to get a new car for a while. I don’t think you can go wrong with Tacoma/4Runner/Landcruiser 70 series.
  - cr0sh 7y ago
    > My only regret is getting the short bed This is exactly opposite for me - I want a pickup that is "short bed, standard cab" - I want a small pickup - like the original Ranger/Mazda B3000. Sadly, due to CAFE rules I can't get that any more. Now - what I (and many others) lusted after was something Jeep showed off as a concept vehicle: It was a short-bed version of their new Gladiator pickup. Probably the only way that I might - might - give up my TJ. Damn, that thing looked so sweet. But again, they probably couldn't build it because of CAFE rules. So if you want the Gladiator, you have to get the 4-door. I don't like 4-door vehicles, I have no need for one. I want a 2-door pickup, standard cab, short bed - nothing less. Either that, or give me one of these - another vehicle I can't own: http://oxgvt.com/ http://oxgvt.com/
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  As someone in the market for a truck, why specifically USA and not somewhere else? I'm always a bit bemused by this. We were urged to buy British in the late seventies and early eighties. My dad lapped it up and the reward for his loyalty was a string of really crap cars.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  >I’m looking at the Toyota Tacoma as my number one choice, but this is not a strongly held desire if there is something better. Something better for what? A Dodge Dakota or an old Ranger (the ones not based on the global platform) are far superior if your goal is to overload the piss out of them without hurting the truck. You'd probably enjoy your time in a new truck far more though.
jfim 7y ago
Out of curiosity, how does one find out the domestic content of vehicles (or other goods)?
- track_me_now 7y ago
  This is a good question because all the manufacturers are totally integrated; It's really hard to determine "where a car is made" because of parts and sub-assembly. That said, several of the car sites tally up the origin of the parts and assembly and calculate the percentage (likely on a value-added basis) to determine "domestic content": https://www.cars.com/american-made-index/ https://www.cars.com/american-made-index/
  - castratikron 7y ago
    Maybe I don't understand what this is measuring but wouldn't Teslas be close to all-American? They even make the battery cells in the same site as the rest of the car I think. They don't show up anywhere on that list.
    - dagw 7y ago
      From the page describing the report: "Tesla declined to furnish enough information to be included in the 2019 American-Made Index."
- masonic 7y ago
  In the USA, it's on the (Monroni) window sticker.
wcunning 7y ago
Oooph, as someone in the automotive industry, I would avoid that thing like the plague. Have you checked the recall for going through the car wash causing that truck to light on fire[0]? One burned down at my neighborhood convenience store a couple of weeks ago... I would much much much more readily trust the engineering of GM on trucks, but that's probably only meaningful if you actually intend to tow something. I have a Ford truck, but that's mostly due to rust concerns in the Southeast Michigan area. All of this is to say that I would trust the domestic manufacturers on anything truck related before I would trust one of the foreign companies, Toyota definitely included. It's simply a matter of core competency, regardless of percentage of US content. [0] https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/honda-ridgeline-recalled-over-fuel-pump-issue/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/honda-ri...
- perl4ever 7y ago
  Number 1 hit for "F-150 recalls": "Ford Motor Company (Ford) is recalling certain 2018 Ford Expedition, F-150, and Lincoln Navigator vehicles equipped with 3.5L GTDI V6 engines. These vehicles have high pressure fuel pump assemblies with welds that can fracture, which may cause an oil or fuel leak." That said, I don't own a pickup from any manufacturer.
  - joecool1029 7y ago
    The cruise control recalls were great. Basically, the engineers figured it would be a great idea to route power through a cruise control switch at all times (even when parked). Then to really make the design awesome, they put the switch next to hydraulic brake lines. Over the years corrosion does its thing and would cause cause the switch to arc into the brake fluid. A neighbor of mine had a Ford Explorer affected by it, he ignored the recall notice. It eventually burst into flames one day while parked in his driveway and the fire department had a great time smashing his windows while putting it out. Anyways Ford knew about the problem in the mid-90's but was in love with this design so much that they kept it in place until 2004. Check out the list! https://www.autosafety.org/ford-cruise-control-deactivation-switch-recalls-and-history/ https://www.autosafety.org/ford-cruise-control-deactivation-...
  - 7y ago
dreamcompiler 7y ago
When Henry Ford built cars, he knew that the people making his cars were also buying his cars. That mantra was thrown out in the 80s. The new mantra was "make sure the people making the stuff are poorer than the people buying the stuff, and you [shareholders and executives] can pocket the extra profit margin." The flaw in this theory is obvious: Eventually you run out of poor people willing to build things they themselves cannot afford to buy, and since the buyers of your stuff no longer have jobs, they're no longer buyers either. And that's where we are today. It sucks, but a lot of wealthy people made a lot of money on the float while it lasted.
- fordworker234 7y ago
  This is ridiculous. Ford pays very high salaries compared to the rest of Detroit and most of America. The interns are paid $23 per hour for instance. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Ford-Motor-Company-Detroit-Salaries-EI_IE263.0,18_IL.19,26_IM236.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Ford-Motor-Company-Detroit-...
  - dreamcompiler 7y ago
    I should have made clear I was describing how all (or at least most) American industry threw out Henry Ford's mantra. Ford Inc might still be living Henry's values.
  - ModsCtrlideas 7y ago
    Ford offered me 83k as a 5 year engineer, 2 years contract. GM offered me 110k. And after 8 years, Nissan at 120k. Ford pays the worst for engineering
- devoply 7y ago
  Just goes to show that the poor need their own power structure, Trump or Fascism (not saying Trump is fascism, just saying Fascism is another option which appealed to poor people in WWII) is not a replacement for that.
- manfredo 7y ago
  Were that the case, we'd see a prevalence of people unable to afford cars. This is not the case. The cost of an automobile is an even smaller fraction of an average person's disposable income than it was during Henry Ford's day. And this isn't considering the fact that a modern car is far safer, more comfortable, more fuel efficient, and just broadly way better than a model T. American workers are too highly paid to make many manufacturing jobs viable in the US. If GM et al. were to pay American workers more they would either not be making enough money to stay afloat, or the cost of their cars would rise considerably (and likely lose sales and not be profitable anyway).
TorKlingberg 7y ago
Do people in other countries care about the percentage domestic content in this way?
- Maarten88 7y ago
  As someone from an EU country with no domestic caranufacturers: we don't care at all. We buy German. French, Japanese, Korean, Italian and even some US cars. Not many, see the Top Gear review of the F-150 to understand why. My country does not have car manufacturers, but still supplies a lot of parts to car manufacturers around the world. My BMW was assembled in the US. Not in our neighboring Germany. The car manufacturing industry is much more geographically integrated than most people assume.
- pjc50 7y ago
  There have been occasional limp "Buy British" campaigns, but the UK car industry's reputation for poor quality kind of sank it in the 80s. I'm not sure how many buyers could tell you which Nissan/Ford/Vauxhall (Opel) models are made in the UK any more.
- ido 7y ago
  Not cars in particular but the Swiss and Austrians are obsessed with "Made In Switzerland/Austria" respectively. Especially for foodstuff (cheese, meat, etc). I see this a lot less in Germany, maybe because nationalism in general is seen as somewhat in bad-taste here.
cr0sh 7y ago
> I bought a truck that had the most USA content...a Honda Ridgeline. Hate to break it to you - but you didn't buy a truck. You bought something shaped like a truck. I personally don't know if I could trust it doing actual truck jobs, if I needed it for that. I don't know how well it would fare if I took it off-road on some of the trails I've been on that can easily break regular pickups and jeeps. Just something about it being a unibody car-like construction that makes me cringe. Then again, I know there've been other pickups built like this in the past (I know that various manufacturers have experimented with this); plus, the Jeep Cherokee has (almost?) always been of a similar construction (not sure if unibody - but it doesn't have a ladder-frame chassis, but rather front and rear subframes) - and it's known for it's off-road prowess. Part of my concern on the Ridgeline, also, is that Honda isn't exactly known for its pickup trucks (at least here in the USA), unlike other Japanese brands still on the market - but that's just bias on my part. That said, I think we're likely to see more unibody pickups along the way, and maybe the engineering of the Ridgeline will help lead that direction. There are advantages to it; I'm just biased toward ladder-frame as that's what I've always considered a real truck to use...
- xeromal 7y ago
  hahaha. I hate both the ridgeline and the avalanche. It's a car with a truck body. Body on frame construction is a dying art and it makes me pretty sad. I love that my 4runner is still built strong.

by AmVess 7y ago

pkaye 7y ago

> They are pushing production and engineering to anywhere not the USA... How much is outside of Detroit vs outside of US?

sharkweek 7y ago

As someone in the market for a truck, why specifically USA and not somewhere else? I’m looking at the Toyota Tacoma as my number one choice, but this is not a strongly held desire if there is something better.

track_me_now 7y ago
Well first a Tacoma is actually a truck; even Honda states the ridgeline is not intended to compete with traditional trucks, is not built for towing and uses a unibody construction. Tacomas are expensive, the dealers don't deal and they hold their resale value. The new (2019) Tacoma trades heavily on it's reputation IMO, without really adding much new over the past 3-4 years. It's a real off-road vehicle though, if that's important to you. In this format/size I'd suggest you take a look at the new Ranger. It's nothing fancy but much more affordable. It's pretty much the polar opposite of the Ridgeline.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  I like that Toyota hasn’t touched Tacoma/4Runner. It’s already perfect as is, no additional bells and whistles were needed other than CarPlay.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
bitexploder 7y ago
I’m a fan of Ford trucks myself, drive a F150 for off-roading. Tacoma and Jeep Wrangler out here in CO are extremely popular and have great reputations. The build quality on Ford stuff is fine. I think the recommendation for Ranger is solid, but I am not sure if it is better. If you are really serious about off-roading full sized trucks are not ideal (too wide/long).
- cr0sh 7y ago
  From what I can gather - and this is mere speculation on my part - the new Ranger is merely a version of the 1990s F150 dressed up. Compare the size of an early 90s F150 with that of today's new Ranger, and you'll see what I mean (while you're at it, compare the sizes of an early 90s F250 with today's F150). I honestly think (I have no proof) that what Ford did was kill off the Ranger (ie - stop rebadging them from Mazda), because of CAFE rule changes, but then they found that even the F150 was too small, too. So they moved the F250 down a notch (it became the 150), and maybe the 350 too (it became the 250). I'm not sure about higher numbers; most people never bought anything bigger than the 350, at least on the consumer end (I have seen some "consumer" 450s and 750s on the road - but they are very rare). Then people clamor for the Ranger (have you ever tried to find an original Ford Ranger that is in normal condition, in good repair, and hasn't been "pre-runnered"? Not easy - and when you do, it ain't cheap, either - wish I never gave up my 94) - so they dig out the old F150 - which is smaller than today's F150, dress it up and tada: "new Ranger!" Again - this is just my impression; I'm not sure of the truth or facts or anything. I'll tell you where Ford also made a mistake: They announced a "mini-Raptor" - but afaik, it was only released in Australia (and I think it had a diesel engine option to boot!). Gah!
sh-run 7y ago
I absolutely love my Tacoma. It's a 2009 4dr TRD Sport with 164,000 miles. I have no desire to 'upgrade' to something newer. My only regret is getting the short bed, I sleep in the back a few times a year and it'd be nice to not need to sleep in the diagonal. The people I know who own the 3rd gen Tacomas seem to like them just as much as I like mine.
- sharkweek 7y ago
  I’ve got a 2000 4Runner that is still running great, but looking to switch to a truck in the next couple of years. My thought, years ago, was to wait for the 4Runner to break down then upgrade, but I’m now starting to wonder if that’s still a few years (decades?!) off.
  - frankharv 7y ago
    Wow I have the 2000 RAV4 and the same opinion. 5 years ago I started thinking of buying something new but the RAV4 keeps purring. 240,xxx miles and you would never know it.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    I’m in the same boat, so I installed a Sony CarPlay unit in, and accepted that I won’t be able to get a new car for a while. I don’t think you can go wrong with Tacoma/4Runner/Landcruiser 70 series.
- cr0sh 7y ago
  > My only regret is getting the short bed This is exactly opposite for me - I want a pickup that is "short bed, standard cab" - I want a small pickup - like the original Ranger/Mazda B3000. Sadly, due to CAFE rules I can't get that any more. Now - what I (and many others) lusted after was something Jeep showed off as a concept vehicle: It was a short-bed version of their new Gladiator pickup. Probably the only way that I might - might - give up my TJ. Damn, that thing looked so sweet. But again, they probably couldn't build it because of CAFE rules. So if you want the Gladiator, you have to get the 4-door. I don't like 4-door vehicles, I have no need for one. I want a 2-door pickup, standard cab, short bed - nothing less. Either that, or give me one of these - another vehicle I can't own: http://oxgvt.com/ http://oxgvt.com/
tonyedgecombe 7y ago
As someone in the market for a truck, why specifically USA and not somewhere else? I'm always a bit bemused by this. We were urged to buy British in the late seventies and early eighties. My dad lapped it up and the reward for his loyalty was a string of really crap cars.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
>I’m looking at the Toyota Tacoma as my number one choice, but this is not a strongly held desire if there is something better. Something better for what? A Dodge Dakota or an old Ranger (the ones not based on the global platform) are far superior if your goal is to overload the piss out of them without hurting the truck. You'd probably enjoy your time in a new truck far more though.

jfim 7y ago

Out of curiosity, how does one find out the domestic content of vehicles (or other goods)?

track_me_now 7y ago
This is a good question because all the manufacturers are totally integrated; It's really hard to determine "where a car is made" because of parts and sub-assembly. That said, several of the car sites tally up the origin of the parts and assembly and calculate the percentage (likely on a value-added basis) to determine "domestic content": https://www.cars.com/american-made-index/ https://www.cars.com/american-made-index/
- castratikron 7y ago
  Maybe I don't understand what this is measuring but wouldn't Teslas be close to all-American? They even make the battery cells in the same site as the rest of the car I think. They don't show up anywhere on that list.
  - dagw 7y ago
    From the page describing the report: "Tesla declined to furnish enough information to be included in the 2019 American-Made Index."
masonic 7y ago
In the USA, it's on the (Monroni) window sticker.

wcunning 7y ago

Oooph, as someone in the automotive industry, I would avoid that thing like the plague. Have you checked the recall for going through the car wash causing that truck to light on fire[0]? One burned down at my neighborhood convenience store a couple of weeks ago... I would much much much more readily trust the engineering of GM on trucks, but that's probably only meaningful if you actually intend to tow something. I have a Ford truck, but that's mostly due to rust concerns in the Southeast Michigan area. All of this is to say that I would trust the domestic manufacturers on anything truck related before I would trust one of the foreign companies, Toyota definitely included. It's simply a matter of core competency, regardless of percentage of US content. [0] https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/honda-ridgeline-recalled-over-fuel-pump-issue/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/honda-ri...

perl4ever 7y ago
Number 1 hit for "F-150 recalls": "Ford Motor Company (Ford) is recalling certain 2018 Ford Expedition, F-150, and Lincoln Navigator vehicles equipped with 3.5L GTDI V6 engines. These vehicles have high pressure fuel pump assemblies with welds that can fracture, which may cause an oil or fuel leak." That said, I don't own a pickup from any manufacturer.
- joecool1029 7y ago
  The cruise control recalls were great. Basically, the engineers figured it would be a great idea to route power through a cruise control switch at all times (even when parked). Then to really make the design awesome, they put the switch next to hydraulic brake lines. Over the years corrosion does its thing and would cause cause the switch to arc into the brake fluid. A neighbor of mine had a Ford Explorer affected by it, he ignored the recall notice. It eventually burst into flames one day while parked in his driveway and the fire department had a great time smashing his windows while putting it out. Anyways Ford knew about the problem in the mid-90's but was in love with this design so much that they kept it in place until 2004. Check out the list! https://www.autosafety.org/ford-cruise-control-deactivation-switch-recalls-and-history/ https://www.autosafety.org/ford-cruise-control-deactivation-...
- 7y ago

dreamcompiler 7y ago

When Henry Ford built cars, he knew that the people making his cars were also buying his cars. That mantra was thrown out in the 80s. The new mantra was "make sure the people making the stuff are poorer than the people buying the stuff, and you [shareholders and executives] can pocket the extra profit margin." The flaw in this theory is obvious: Eventually you run out of poor people willing to build things they themselves cannot afford to buy, and since the buyers of your stuff no longer have jobs, they're no longer buyers either. And that's where we are today. It sucks, but a lot of wealthy people made a lot of money on the float while it lasted.

fordworker234 7y ago
This is ridiculous. Ford pays very high salaries compared to the rest of Detroit and most of America. The interns are paid $23 per hour for instance. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Ford-Motor-Company-Detroit-Salaries-EI_IE263.0,18_IL.19,26_IM236.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Ford-Motor-Company-Detroit-...
- dreamcompiler 7y ago
  I should have made clear I was describing how all (or at least most) American industry threw out Henry Ford's mantra. Ford Inc might still be living Henry's values.
- ModsCtrlideas 7y ago
  Ford offered me 83k as a 5 year engineer, 2 years contract. GM offered me 110k. And after 8 years, Nissan at 120k. Ford pays the worst for engineering
devoply 7y ago
Just goes to show that the poor need their own power structure, Trump or Fascism (not saying Trump is fascism, just saying Fascism is another option which appealed to poor people in WWII) is not a replacement for that.
manfredo 7y ago
Were that the case, we'd see a prevalence of people unable to afford cars. This is not the case. The cost of an automobile is an even smaller fraction of an average person's disposable income than it was during Henry Ford's day. And this isn't considering the fact that a modern car is far safer, more comfortable, more fuel efficient, and just broadly way better than a model T. American workers are too highly paid to make many manufacturing jobs viable in the US. If GM et al. were to pay American workers more they would either not be making enough money to stay afloat, or the cost of their cars would rise considerably (and likely lose sales and not be profitable anyway).

TorKlingberg 7y ago

Do people in other countries care about the percentage domestic content in this way?

Maarten88 7y ago
As someone from an EU country with no domestic caranufacturers: we don't care at all. We buy German. French, Japanese, Korean, Italian and even some US cars. Not many, see the Top Gear review of the F-150 to understand why. My country does not have car manufacturers, but still supplies a lot of parts to car manufacturers around the world. My BMW was assembled in the US. Not in our neighboring Germany. The car manufacturing industry is much more geographically integrated than most people assume.
pjc50 7y ago
There have been occasional limp "Buy British" campaigns, but the UK car industry's reputation for poor quality kind of sank it in the 80s. I'm not sure how many buyers could tell you which Nissan/Ford/Vauxhall (Opel) models are made in the UK any more.
ido 7y ago
Not cars in particular but the Swiss and Austrians are obsessed with "Made In Switzerland/Austria" respectively. Especially for foodstuff (cheese, meat, etc). I see this a lot less in Germany, maybe because nationalism in general is seen as somewhat in bad-taste here.

cr0sh 7y ago

> I bought a truck that had the most USA content...a Honda Ridgeline. Hate to break it to you - but you didn't buy a truck. You bought something shaped like a truck. I personally don't know if I could trust it doing actual truck jobs, if I needed it for that. I don't know how well it would fare if I took it off-road on some of the trails I've been on that can easily break regular pickups and jeeps. Just something about it being a unibody car-like construction that makes me cringe. Then again, I know there've been other pickups built like this in the past (I know that various manufacturers have experimented with this); plus, the Jeep Cherokee has (almost?) always been of a similar construction (not sure if unibody - but it doesn't have a ladder-frame chassis, but rather front and rear subframes) - and it's known for it's off-road prowess. Part of my concern on the Ridgeline, also, is that Honda isn't exactly known for its pickup trucks (at least here in the USA), unlike other Japanese brands still on the market - but that's just bias on my part. That said, I think we're likely to see more unibody pickups along the way, and maybe the engineering of the Ridgeline will help lead that direction. There are advantages to it; I'm just biased toward ladder-frame as that's what I've always considered a real truck to use...

xeromal 7y ago
hahaha. I hate both the ridgeline and the avalanche. It's a car with a truck body. Body on frame construction is a dying art and it makes me pretty sad. I love that my 4runner is still built strong.