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U.S. Surgeon General’s Advisory: Marijuana Use and the Developing Brain

• 40acres 7y ago
  My brother smoked heavily during his teens and as a result developed schizophrenia / substance induced psychosis. It was generally terrifying to see him unable to complete thoughts and lose his train of thought. He's fine now but I definitely wouldn't be surprised if you told me those years knocked a couple of points off his IQ. I'm for decriminalization and legalization but at the core we need funding for long term studies to better understand marijuana's effects. Unfortunately the politicization of marijuana has led it, similar to guns, to be woefully understudied as a topic of public health in the US.
  • djsumdog 7y ago
    > as a result developed schizophrenia I'm sorry about your brother, but I want to point out this is anecdotal. Can cannibals lead to psychosis in people who are prone to it genetically, or are people who start experiencing delusions, bipolar and schizo-effective conditions just likely to escape using alcohol and marijuana? The exact cause/effect conditions here are a big unknown.
    • hartator 7y ago
      Not the OP, but this is not anecdotal. Weed can develop schizophrenia in 4-5% of the population that carries a specific gene. Ref: https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/marijuana/there-link-between-marijuana-use-psychiatric-disorders https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/mari...
      • rosser 7y ago
        drugabuse.gov should probably not be considered an un-biased source on the topic of drugs of abuse. Some of their material will be propaganda and FUD.
        • losteric 7y ago
          So that's as far as you got? Didn't like the domain, therefore the study results are bunk? 75% of the authors are affiliated with other institutions, only 3 are with the National Institute on Drug Abuse. NIDA itself is well-grounded. There have been some instances where they take a more conservative stance given uncertainty in results, but this is still a national scientific institute - not DARE or the DoJ. Finally, the paper is on PMC: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5426185/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5426185/ - why do you disagree with their conclusion?
          • rosser 7y ago
            Would you care to speculate again about how much time I've spent reading their literature before this discussion? I promise you, it's non-zero. Please try not to dismiss people's positions that shallowly; it's a disservice to the conversation we're trying to have, and it's rude. I am involved in a number of communities that engage intentionally, even sacramentally, with psychedelics. The amount of sheer bullshit they continue to promulgate on that matter, about which I consider myself advanced-lay to burgeoning-expert, is staggering, and is sufficient for me to be default skeptical of anything else they might have to say. When you lie to me about things I know something about, I'm obligated to trust the rest of your oeuvre somewhat less, aren't I? Finally, I said nothing whatsoever about the conclusion of the paper under general discussion. In point of fact, I generally agree with it.
            • monktastic1 7y ago
              Not OP, but FWIW your italicizing of drugabuse.gov also gave me the impression that you were dismissing it purely by domain. I did not ready any rudeness in your parent.
              • rosser 7y ago
                Thanks for your perspective, I appreciate it. I can see that being a legitimate read of the comment, if one punts on the guideline to assume good faith, and interpret people's arguments in the strongest light, rather than, e.g., dismiss them on the basis of formatting. It's just disappointing when that happens, because I try to engage that way, and assume my comments will be treated the same. EDIT: That said, I didn't exactly offer much in the way of argument there, did I?
      • x86_64Ubuntu 7y ago
        And how much of the general population carries that specific gene? The 4-5 is a conditional probability.
      • bregma 7y ago
        Do you really think a publication from a place with a URL 'drugabuse.gov' is going to be a reliable source of unbiased information?
        • bduerst 7y ago
          Which of their cited sources are wrong? https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/marijuana/references https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/mari... Specifically, these peer reviewed science articles: * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22831980 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22831980 * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26886046 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26886046 * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15866551 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15866551
          • mudcrab 7y ago
            All of them are either wrong or irrelevant because none of them factor in weed helping.
          • bregma 7y ago
            Citing a source doesn't make your message unbiased. There is a saying "even the devil can quote scripture."
            • bduerst 7y ago
              And then even the devil gets pointed out how they used the scripture wrong. The point being that the data itself is addressed, rather than just ad hom'ing the devil.
        • DanBC 7y ago
          They're not self-published.
        • wysifnwyg 7y ago
          Have you checked the math on the statistical analysis?
      • dmix 7y ago
        > The strongest evidence to date concerns links between marijuana use and substance use disorders and between marijuana use and psychiatric disorders in those with a preexisting genetic or other vulnerability. > After adjusting for various confounding factors, no association between marijuana use and mood and anxiety disorders was found. The only significant associations were increased risk of alcohol use disorders, nicotine dependence, marijuana use disorder, and other drug use disorders. It's pretty well established even in hardcore drug communities that drugs aren't for everybody and it's rarely ever the drug itself that caused it. Even without scientific evidence.
      • imhelpingu 7y ago
        Wow what a paragon of truth and levelheaded reason, posting some propaganda article that any dumbass can poke holes in and which every dumbass has poked holes in. I love society now, and all of its earnest regard for public discourse and truth instead of just commies, who think they know whats best for everyone, marketing their worldview at any cost.
    • ssully 7y ago
      The person you are replying too understands that it is anecdotal, which is why they mentioned that it's a woefully understudied topic and needs more funding for long term studies.
      • wannabcodr 7y ago
        It’s going to be difficult to draw any meaningful conclusions as you would need to construct identical environments with and without access to marijuana combined with cloned DNA or twin studies. Even then, will that be enough to predict if someone will have an adverse reaction to marijuana based on their DNA? A simple test to determine if a teenager who tries marijuana should be forced to stay away from it is whether they have an extreme reaction to it.
      • Circuits 7y ago
        "My brother smoked heavily during his teens and as a result developed schizophrenia / substance induced psychosis." - that is a statement of fact so.. apparently not.
    • 40acres 7y ago
      I can't say what truly caused it or what factor cannabis played, all I know is that the diagnosis was 'substance induced psychosis' and 'schizophrenia' -- the doctors were pretty stumped and that leads to my point that a lot more research is needed.
      • mabbo 7y ago
        I have a similar situation with my own brother- skipping over many details for brevity. What I've always wondered was whether the marijuana caused the mental illness or whether the mental issues developing lead to a dependence on the marijuana to cope with the stress, anxiety, etc. Sure, there is a correlation there, but how certain are we which causes which? Then again, psychotropic drugs when you're already dealing with problematic brain chemistry probably isn't a great idea for anyone.
      • jansan 7y ago
        It has been known for a while that certain drugs (also LSD) can induce psychosis' in certain people. The problem is that you cannot know if you are one of these people until you tried for a while. So it's a bit like playing Russian roulette. If you don't develop a psychosis when doing LSD, marihuana or shrooms, chances are that you will be fine. But if you do, you have a problem, possibly destroying your whole life.
      • AngryData 7y ago
        A number of studies ive read seem to point towards marijuana and hallucinogens as merely aggravating symptoms of mental disorders that were already present, but hadn't yet easily or fully expressed themselves. Things like bi-polar, schizophrenia, and other disorders are commonly known to grow in intensity going into adulthood, so even if the first time a breakdown or episode happens is actually triggered by something like marijuana, does that mean they could have never been diagnosed if they never used that drug? Or does it just mean they would have had a breakdown in the near future regardless? Maybe they just set the trigger of slightly earlier.
        • bigfudge 7y ago
          My experience is that many of the negative side effects of recreational drugs come from the culture in which they are taken, and the habits associated with them. Taking ecstacy, for example, often involves staying up all night and dancing. I also feel terrible if I deprive myself of sleep without taking drugs, but I tend not to do that so often. So are the drugs dangerous, or are we just failing to construct heathy social norms around them?
    • Pimpus 7y ago
      Marijuana is well known for causing psychosis, paranoia, panic, and other disturbed mental states. There's a reason they tell you not to eat the whole brownie - once the bad trip comes on, you're stuck with it and just have to ride it out. It can be quite harrowing. I also don't think marijuana is at all safe to take regularly, just looking at people who do so. It seems to incur actual neurological changes - you even stop having dreams. I understand that it can be fun, but all things must be taken with moderation, and people's increasing obsession with this psychoactive drug is worrisome.
      • dragonwriter 7y ago
        > I also don't think marijuana is at all safe to take regularly, just looking at people who do so I suspect lots of people around you do so without you knowing it; as it remains a federal crime and not protected from employment and other discrimination, many people are discreet about it and the non-discreet are not a representative subset of the using population.
        • bigfudge 7y ago
          It's worth noting that this is even more true of 'hard' drugs than cannabis. There are a surprising number of fine upstanding citizens with a heroin addiction...
      • sv123 7y ago
        *citations needed
    • DanBC 7y ago
      Currently we strongly think that cannabis use can cause psychotic illness in some people, and that some of those would not have gone on to develop psychotic illness if they had not used cannabis. But it's really complex. People with schizophrenia smoke. They start smoking early, they smoke more frequently, and when they smoke they inhale deeper. EG, this, but there are lots of similar: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25991762/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25991762/ It's hard to unpick the causal directions. But the precautionary principle is sound: there's not many benefits to children of smoking cannabis, so they should probably avoid it.
    • hestefisk 7y ago
      This is not anecdotal. It’s called Cannabis Induced Psychosis (CIP). https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/substance-use-disorder/cannabis-induced-psychosis-review https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/substance-use-disorder/cann...
    • umvi 7y ago
      Can we stop with the downplaying when it comes to drugs? Drugs should be guilty until proven innocent. Comments like these attempt to make them innocent until proven guilty. History has shown that there are very few "safe" recreational drugs. This attitude is one of the reasons it was so hard for public opinion to change on tobacco usage. "My mom died of cancer from smoking tobacco" "Sorry about your mom, but I want to point out this is anecdotal. Can tobacco lead to cancer in people who are prone to it genetically? Or are people that are genetically prone to cancer drawn to tobacco? Or does it affect everyone? Lots of big unknowns here, so let's play it safe and not jump to any conclusions about the harm tobacco potentially may cause."
      • mrosett 7y ago
        I'm looking forward to people talking about "Big Weed" in 20 years with the contempt currently reserved for "Big Tobacco."
        • LocalH 7y ago
          It won't be weed's fault when that's the case. Weed is a lot different from tobacco in every way.
      • 693471 7y ago
        Meanwhile we all keep ignoring that the booze industry has worked tirelessly to make sure we use the phrase "drugs and alcohol" so alcohol isn't recognized as a drug by most of the population
        • umvi 7y ago
          Is the booze industry doing that? Or do people do that as a form of rationalization to convince themselves that they aren't regular drug users?
          • 693471 7y ago
            Yes, and even more damning is the language used by DARE: > D.A.R.E. America's Commitment to Prevention In its 35 year history, D.A.R.E. America has constantly improved its science and evidence based education programs to provide students with the knowledge and tools they need to resist drugs, alcohol, and other high risk behaviors. Alcohol gets classified as separate from drugs. Wouldn't want kids telling their parents to not do drugs, right? And if their parents drink, that would just signal drugs are OK... etc etc
    • yhoneycomb 7y ago
      It’s not anecdotal. The relative risk for developing schizophrenia for cannabis smokers vs non cannabis smokers is 2.3. This means that you are 2.3 times more likely to develop schizophrenia if you smoke cannabis. Your post annoys me because it might actually lead people astray. Please try not to talk about things you know little to nothing about. Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4988731/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4988731/
    • nullc 7y ago
      > Can cannibals lead to psychosis in people There are many diseases known to propagate via cannibalism, including ones with psychological symptoms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_(disease) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_(disease)
  • hartator 7y ago
    This. I am all for legalization but it’s not a safe drug. Induced schizophrenia by weed can be a thing if you carry a specific gene.
    • rosser 7y ago
      The association between cannabis and schizophrenia remains, as far as I'm aware, primarily statistical, and other factors like familial history are significantly more predictive. EDIT: That is, I don't think we have sufficient understanding to say whether pot abuse causes schizophrenia, or schizophrenics are more likely to abuse pot. Given what I know of how awful a ride that is, self-medicating that devolves into abuse seems far more plausible to me. Further, there's research that takes into account family history of these mental illnesses out to 3rd — and further — degrees, and which suggests a much stronger link between that and the illness, than the drug use.
      • tdb7893 7y ago
        The thing for me is the fact that it might lead to schizophrenia is still scary. I've met a lot of people on the "it's not proven so I'm going to assume it's safe" side and I never understood it but then again I'm fairly risk averse.
        • rosser 7y ago
          It's broken thinking to assume something is safe on the basis of a lack of proof otherwise. We have a pretty substantial body of research exonerating cannabis of a lot of the harms other drugs of abuse can bring. Literally no-one ever has died of a cannabis overdose, that we know of. We know it's safe that way. There is of course a risk with any mind-altering substance that it might trigger a latent or occult mental illness. Those odds go up, sometimes significantly, with more powerful substances, and even more so when the user has any genetic predisposition towards those conditions. There's also a risk of having a difficult or traumatic experience, which can likewise increase with dose or different substances. That said, those of us who work with these substances intentionally often find that those experiences can be where the really transformative stuff happens.
  • t0mbstone 7y ago
    How much of that was due to smoking pesticides on the product, and how much of it (if any) was due to the product itself? Until we have proper studies on this (which is hard, because of the current federal drug classification), it is impossible to tell.
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    • pthomas551 7y ago
      Yeah, illegal cannabis growers are known for using incredibly toxic pesticides. Another reason to stick with licensed dispensaries.
  • aritmo 7y ago
    Cannabis is meant for adults only. When the brain is developed in the teens, cannabis use may affect the development. Just like with alcohol.
    • enragedcacti 7y ago
      Cannabis is not "meant" for anyone. It is a naturally occurring substance. Whether it has a negative impact on teens or adults is a completely separate question. Just like with alcohol.
      • deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    • house9-2 7y ago
      I smoked weed from the age of 14 to 24; also dropped LSD about 100 times between 14 and 19 years of age. I'm in my late 40's now and totally normal. I think I smoked weed like 3 times in the last 20 years and it is not my thing anymore. Smoking weed was definitely more fun in my youth. Did it affect my brain development? maybe
  • bregma 7y ago
    Unfortunately the fallacy of correlation-is-causation muddies the water here. Does self-medication cause incipient psychoses to fully manifest, or do those with incipient psychoses resort to self-medication in early stages in seeking to treat their symptoms? Fortunately, it's still illegal to even study these things in America so we can comfortably resort to what we have faith in without the scourge of proof. This goes just as much for the miracle of CBD oil (CBD rhymes with 'znake').
    • buttcoinslol 7y ago
      I personally think it's the latter. There are estimates that 60-90% of schizophrenics smoke cigarettes, which is 2-3x the normal smoking rate. I think schizophrenics are more likely to smoke marijuana around the time the disease begins to manifest. It's a lot easier to look at your child/brother/uncle/whatever and say "weed did this to him, it's all weed's fault" vs "the disease presented concurrent with a time period where person used cannabis". I'm not even slightly convinced that weed induced schizophrenia is real.
      • AnthonBerg 7y ago
        Cannabis gives me manic and schizophrenic symptoms. I feel emotions I don’t have names for. I don’t get these symptoms without. This is a strong psychedelic with a very long binding time deep inside our neurobiology.
        • lawnchair_larry 7y ago
          If you only have those symptoms while under the influence, this doesn’t really mean anything.
          • AnthonBerg 7y ago
            That’s true; I had them long, long after too. All I really mean by the comment is that I ask the possibility be considered to be real.
      • 7y ago
  • dlphn___xyz 7y ago
    i wonder how psychiatric drugs effect the developing minds of children - pediatricians prescribe them to children as young as 10 and most stay on them throughout their teens
  • high_derivative 7y ago
    It totally weirds me out how defensive people are about your anecdote here. Talking to any clinical psychotherapist dealing with young adults, you will hear lots of stories about weed-induced psychosis and anxiety. What I wonder is why it matters to people that it's not as safe as they may believe? Cognitive dissonance? We do lots of unsafe things.
    • sergiotapia 7y ago
      People want to hear what they're doing is OK. To go against the choices you've consciously made is anathema.
    • leetcrew 7y ago
      there's a fairly deep schism between the "I should be free to harm myself however I want" crowd and the "we need to protect people from themselves" crowd. the first group doesn't necessarily believe drugs are as safe as they publicly claim, but they fear that discussions about harm are the first step towards issuing or doubling down on bans. they don't think it becomes safe by winning a debate; they just don't want to let the second group win the debate on the record. the second group, for their part, tend to come off as sanctimonious busybodies.
    • yhoneycomb 7y ago
      It’s not even anecdotal. The relative risk for developing schizophrenia for cannabis smokers vs non cannabis smokers is 2.3. This means that you are 2.3 times more likely to develop schizophrenia if you smoke cannabis. Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4988731/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4988731/ With that said, I think it should be legal. I just think people shouldn’t downplay the risks.
      • bigfudge 7y ago
        Reporting relative odds or risks without a baseline is very misleading. The absolute risk in either case is still very low. People aren't downplaying risks.. they are setting them in a proper context (where other legal recreational drugs cause substantially more harm).
  • kazinator 7y ago
    You can also nuke points off your IQ by drinking acetone or inhaling the fumes. I'm all for solvents to continue being legally offered for sale in hardware or paint stores, as they have for a hundred umpteen years, but we need funding for longer term studies ...
    • dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      Weed, in its consumption form, (i.e. not hemp) doesn't have practical uses except maybe covering odors. Acetone does. That said, hardware stores should be able to sell weed right beside the hand grenades and hard drugs should be available over the counter at any pharmacy that feels like stocking them.
      • kazinator 7y ago
        No; weed could be self-serve, whereas hand grenades should definitely be in a locked glass display case.
      • kazinator 7y ago
        Hemp is a traditional crop with practical uses, and can be used for getting high. Organic solvents have practical uses, and can be inhaled from a rag to get high. I don't see the difference, other than some fucking politics.
  • weberc2 7y ago
    > I'm for decriminalization and legalization but at the core we need funding for long term studies to better understand marijuana's effects. This is sort of the inverse of the anti-GMO position: "we should ban GMOs until we understand them". I wonder if there are many legalize-weed / ban-GMO folks, and how they would defend their position?
    • 40acres 7y ago
      Ha, call it the libertarian / data-driven approach. Frenzy over drugs like marijuana and cocaine fueled the "war on drugs" which devastated communities -- so I'm a proponent of throwing out simple possession convictions and decriminalization, legalization in my mind will help keep it out of the hands of minor (I have no data). I'm for everyone knowing what they're getting into.
      • weberc2 7y ago
        My question was about squaring the "legalize-weed" position with the "ban-GMOs" position. You only addressed the first part of my question as far as I can tell.
    • sohex 7y ago
      That combination of positions is incredibly common. Their argument generally stems from a belief that natural things are inherently good and artificial things are inherently bad.
      • deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    • mpalczewski 7y ago
      GMO's are potentially dangerous to introduce into the environment. Lot's of shoddy science by Monsanto around them. They don't stand the test of time and aren't necessary. When introducing new potentially dangerous things into the world, the burden of proof is to prove them safe. This is hard to do. Weed has been around forever. Your use doesn't affect me(unless you are driving).
  • mudcrab 7y ago
    Disappointed in the comments here. There are NO studies involving psychosis and schizophrenia that factor in weed actually helping (hint: it contains an antipsychotic). Schizophrenia involves a defect in the gene responsible for producing the protein FABP5[1] which delivers our bodies naturally produced cannabinoids (eg, Anandamide and 2AG) to where they're needed[2]. Therefore it is not surprising there is a 'link' between those using cannabis and mental illness: flooding the bloodstream with cannabinoids somewhat makes up for the deficit in endocannabinoid delivery. 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4240203 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4240203 2. https://www.wnypapers.com/news/article/current/2018/03/15/131890/study-ria-scientist-shares-breakthrough-discovery-in-neurotransmission https://www.wnypapers.com/news/article/current/2018/03/15/13...
  • MiroF 7y ago
    There is currently no causal link between pot and schizophrenia. I'm sorry your brother developed it, but there's no saying that it was caused by weed
• Kenji 7y ago
  Fearmongering.
• superkuh 7y ago
  These are all reasonable things. Legalizing it will drastically mitigate the ability for minors to get a hold of any just as was done with the much more dangerous and deadly drug, alcohol.
  • HNcantBtrustd 7y ago
    I remember being 20, trying to throw a party. We had to call someone 1 hour away to deliver alcohol. There was so much marijuana that it seemed both popular and unpopular.
  • dexterdog 7y ago
    I never had a problem getting it in the 80s. Sometimes it was easier to get than booze.
    • rco8786 7y ago
      I think that's what OP is saying...it's easier for kids to get than alcohol
      • dexterdog 7y ago
        I assumed he was being sarcastic
    • acchow 7y ago
      Exactly. Illicit drugs are easier to acquire than legal drugs when you're underage.
      • Swenrekcah 7y ago
        Although by the same logic one could say it’s good to have cannabis rather than something worse as the fallback drug for kids that can’t buy alcohol.
      • mpalczewski 7y ago
        Where I went to highschool this had more to do with packaging and volume. Much easier to hide an eight than a fifth.
• numakerg 7y ago
  > Edible marijuana takes time to absorb and to produce its effects, increasing the risk of unintentional overdose No citation for this. Do they mean a larger than intended dose or a dose that results in a serious toxic reaction or death? Better source: Median lethal THC dose for a 70kg human estimated to be 4g [0], which is slightly over 1300 full joints (at 3mg per joint) [0]. I won't link them here, but a cursory web search showed me stores claiming to sell edibles with up to 1000mg of THC. Also a good read [1] [2] 0. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00952999309001618 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/0095299930900161... 1. https://www.nature.com/articles/srep08126 https://www.nature.com/articles/srep08126 3. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/cannabis-overdose-toxicity-marijuana-1.4816654 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/cannabis-overdose-tox...
  • BubRoss 7y ago
    There are no known deaths purely from marijuana overdose.
  • djsumdog 7y ago
    Is there a listed Median Lethal Dose (LD50) for THC or CBD? It is possible to overdose on nicotine if it's ingested (50mg ~60mg for a 150lbs adult, according to the CDC's website), but I'm not sure if there is such an amount defined for THC ingestion.
    • SimbaOnSteroids 7y ago
      It's a comically large amount of THC to reach the LD50. 192mg/kg.
      • bigfudge 7y ago
        How do they calculate the LD50 given there are basically no THC caused deaths?
      • bigguy0720 7y ago
        192mg/kg is on the higher end of estimates, which do range widely because they are based on animal studies. However, it's not comically large. Do the math, and it comes to just over 14 grams for a 75 kg (165 lb) adult. That's more than most people would ever consume in a day, but it's far less than the 600 gram lethal dose of alcohol for that same person. Alcohol kills far more people because it takes 100 - 250 grams of alcohol for a 75 kg adult to get drunk, so the lethal dose of alcohol is only about 5X the intoxicating dose vs. 100X the intoxicating dose for THC.
• HillaryBriss 7y ago
  another risk factor for cannabis users is contamination by pesticides. many of the illegal grow sites in California national forests have been contaminated by Carbofuran, a banned pesticide. this chemical is applied to the plants. these operations still supply a large fraction of consumer marijuana demand. if you're gonna toke, know your weed supply chain.
• hprotagonist 7y ago
  The national academy has a very nice writeup on "The Health Effects of Cannabis and Cannabinoids: The Current State of Evidence and Recommendations for Research (2017)" which is by far the most comprehensive guide I'm aware of. http://nationalacademies.org/hmd/reports/2017/health-effects-of-cannabis-and-cannabinoids.aspx http://nationalacademies.org/hmd/reports/2017/health-effects... The conclusions summary PDF has the highlights: http://nationalacademies.org/hmd/~/media/Files/Report%20Files/2017/Cannabis-Health-Effects/Cannabis-conclusions.pdf http://nationalacademies.org/hmd/~/media/Files/Report%20File... Personally, i first used weed when i was 22 and figure that's about right. I continue to use it in moderation. I would not be comfortable with its use by a minor child or a pregnant mother.
  • djsumdog 7y ago
    In ever US state where it is legal (Washington, Oregon, California, Colorado, Alaska, Mass., and 2020 Illinois and Michigan) I think the minimum age is 21. Sure people underage can get it, but there is an attempt being made to limit it to people at least 21. I knew parents who let their teenagers know they used it, but also told them they didn't want their kids using it until they were at least 18 (but if they wanted to try it; to ask them and not do it at a party or anything). I generally agree.
    • hprotagonist 7y ago
      I've stuck electrodes in enough brains to be very, very conservative about what i'm comfortable allowing to cross the BBB in rapidly developing tissues :)
      • stochastic_monk 7y ago
        Can you provide a little more detail for those of us who don’t work in your field? As an outsider, it’s not obvious to me what commentary placing the electrodes has to offer.
    • emsy 7y ago
      >Sure people underage can get it, but there is an attempt being made to limit it to people at least 21. This is actually an argument for legalization. Who would you rather snitch on if you got caught with weed as an underage teen: your dispensary employee/friend or your street dealer?
• errantspark 7y ago
  In general it seems like a great idea not to use drugs when your brain is developing. I wish this signal was louder in the zeitgeist. Drugs are just as much fun at age 25.
• VeninVidiaVicii 7y ago
  One of the implications of this report is absurd. Why does the Surgeon General feel the need to clarify that one particular aspect of cannabis is deleterious, when their stance is that the substance is Schedule 1?
  • seandhi 7y ago
    The Drug Enforcement Agency and Food and Drug Administration set the drug schedules, and the Surgeon General is under the United States Public Health Service Commissioned Corps.
  • SargeZT 7y ago
    Ultimately because of the CSA the attorney general is responsible for all decisions on scheduling substances. By the letter of the law, they're supposed to consult with HHS and by extension the surgeon general, but in reality, it's a rubberstamped process largely controlled by the DEA.
• philip1209 7y ago
  > Marijuana is also commonly used by adolescents, second only to alcohol I wonder if nicotine has exceeded this since the cited study (due to e-cigarettes)
  • hsk823 7y ago
    Nicotine has never been considered an intoxicant, thus not relatable here. This advisory isn't about telling people drugs are bad, it's about our society still frowning upon recreational intoxication and trying to scare people out of even seeing if cannabis or other substances can be beneficial to them.
• nenadg 7y ago
  I smoked weed heavily from my ~16 to ~18. And I stopped because it was so overwhelming experience that I could not stand any more. I couldn't function normally and had really tough trips, thinking about so many end results in the same time. Minutes took hours and basically it was an agony, while everybody had pretty joyful time laughing. Now, I'm 38. I'm functional (so far), I have family with kids. I haven't developed schizophrenia, but I have (had ever since my 18) the problem focusing on (for example) - dates, lists (for when I have to go to buy something), simple calculations etc. similar trivials, but I have no problems working on abstract stuff - I work as software engineer. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, based on my experiences, but it seems that majority of others had quite the opposite experiences than me.
  • graphememes 7y ago
    Being in the bay area, I have witnessed what you expressed happen to many engineers since the legalization. They burn out quickly as well. They swear it's not weed since everyone else tells them that's all tinfoil hat stuff. It's very unfortunate.
    • mrlala 7y ago
      Are the engineers you are referring to in developing brain stages? You are replying to OP who said from 16-18.. that is still fairly prime development.. your bay area engineers are probably mid 20's? That is quite different when we are talking about brain development.
      • qzx_pierri 7y ago
        They're probably referring to someone who starts getting high everyday, and quickly becomes "smoked out" - We all know someone like this. I used to get high a lot (when I was 21-23), and I stopped because I noticed myself becoming a shell of who I once was. When I wasn't high, nothing was fun anymore. It started off as saying things like "Bro this would be so much more fun if I was stoned", or "Dude, imagine getting high and then doing X' - This soon turned into "I'm so bored. This would be more interesting if I was high". Soon, I wasn't happy until I picked up an eighth and rolled up a blunt or packed my bowl. When I would stop, I would feel so numb. I soon got depressed, but luckily found a counselor and worked through that dark time with exercise and meditation. People really downplay how damaging getting high all the time can be. It's strange though, because this doesn't happen to everyone. Some people can get stoned all day everyday and live a very happy, productive life. I wish I was in this category, but nothing good lasts forever.
• mrpigeonpants 7y ago
  For me, teenage recreational cannabis use helped to cure another severe disease I was struggling with. Unfortunately, since I've gotten older I've had to slow down a bit. Since then, there's been a gradual progression to the point where my Dorkinson's has almost fully returned.
  • peteradio 7y ago
    Unfortunately Dorkinson's comes for us all.
• deleted 7y ago
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• stevev 7y ago
  I’m curious, has there been any related deaths to cannabis usage? Why is this plant illegal when Alcohol has killed millions?
  • umvi 7y ago
    Alcohol is legal because it's impossible to ban it seeing as you can make it from anything that has sugar in it, which is basically all foods. If cannibis were used as much as alcohol in driving settings, I'm certain there would be thousands of annual DUI deaths.
    • lawlessquestion 7y ago
      I'd be willing to bet there's overall more miles of people driving stoned then drunk.
    • bigfudge 7y ago
      The evidence from simulators suggest people are impaired, but also more cuatious, so risk of incident stays flat.
  • jfk13 7y ago
    Yes. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30925348 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30925348
    • jsutton 7y ago
      No. The subject of your link is synthetic cannabis which is definitely NOT cannabis.
  • yodsanklai 7y ago
    > has there been any related deaths to cannabis usage It's a common meme that cannabis has never killed anyone. Of course it did. People fall asleep while driving, they fall, they develop lung disease. But it doesn't matter. People kill themselves doing all kinds of activities who are perfectly legal. Conversely, many things who don't kill anyone are illegal.
• habosa 7y ago
  Reading the comments here is a bit disappointing. There are a lot of legalization advocates seeming to take the position that because weed is mostly fine for most people it's always fine for everyone. It's not. Anyone here who has a friend who smoked too much when they were young (and we all have that friend) knows that weed, like so many things in life, can be dangerous when you use it too much or when you shouldn't be using it. Yes it should be legal. Yes adults should be able to buy it. We should also watch, very carefully, how our children use it.
  • luckylion 7y ago
    > We should also watch, very carefully, how our children use it. Is anyone even arguing for "children should use it" at all?
  • root_axis 7y ago
    Can you point to an example of someone arguing "weed is fine for everyone" in this thread?
  • lawnchair_larry 7y ago
    That friend was already a deadbeat, with or without the weed. The weed didn’t make them that way. Deadbeats are often attracted to weed, as are many others who want to self-medicate. The deadbeat examples are just more readily available, because the upstanding successful folks are aware of this misconception and the stigma. They tend to keep quiet about it, except among their own. As I get older, I keep discovering “addicts” in my social circle that I’ve known for years, or in some cases decades, who I’d have never guessed have a habit. I don’t have any deadbeats in my social circle. These people all range from moderately successful to wildly successful. A lot of the daily users I can think of are far more productive than I am. At least two of them have founded and sold companies and no longer need to work. But they loathe feeling unproductive, so they still do, and they’re the first ones in the office every morning. Personally, I have tried working under the influence, but it doesn’t work that way for me. It’s not addictive though, so I simply stopped using it. Just like owning a bed doesn’t make you lazy and tired, and it doesn’t cause you to develop an excessive sleeping habit. Just because some people choose to remain in bed to avoid responsibility, doesn’t mean there is a causal relationship.
• sarcasmatwork 7y ago
  Been around for thousands of years for 1. No one has died from an OD of it. Also, Patent No. 6,630,507
  • deleted 7y ago
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• teslaberry 7y ago
  Abuse of any intoxicant can be recognized by a pattern of doing that intoxicant everyday in quantites strong enough to provoke habituatiom and tolerance. People will say alcohol does stand up to this. Perhaps functional alcoholism is better tolerated by society at large, but there is absolutely no one who will not build a tolerance to alcohol if they drink everyday. And a rampant epidemic of anxiety can be attributed to habitual and aggresive overuse of daily caffiene. All stimulants cause anxiety at a point as surely as all depressants cause depression. One can mamage a non problematic relationship with these substances in moderation. But daily habitual use lends itself to tomerance and immoderation. While withdrawal is not always highly problematic and sometimes barely even recognizeable, its exists. One might consider that refraining from daily use of any substance is highly adviseable. The jury now seems to be in that skipping food altogether a day here and there is very healthy. The mind gut liver and immune system are all connected with our intake and processing of substances , psychoactive and otherwise. Ita good to give them a break from any routine useage of anything. Self titrating a substance to the point that you have control over daily doesage administration is medicalizing your use. Even some people develop problems with 'legal' medication. And its not often medicines are reccomended for an every other day use...but why is that? The idea of do no harm is, if you dont need something persistently in your system than perhaps you dont need it on a medically necessary basis, side Effects be damned. Thus, try not to do pot two days in a row and never three days and you should avoid the worst of its side effects assuming you dont binge on days your partake.
• DaniloDias 7y ago
  As a teenager- I decided I would wait till I was 22 before I tried Marijuana. All of my friends were heavy users- and while that made me feel like a bit of an outsider, I had come to the conclusion that it was better to wait and see how using turned out for them before I joined in. That decision was profoundly informative. My high school friends personal and professional trajectories have been severely hobbled. I don’t believe that weed is the sole factor, but it certainly didn’t help them become more ambitious or contribute to their fortitude.
  • wannabcodr 7y ago
    Indeed, I succumbed to the habit as a teenager, when I was indoctrinated by full time users who were also my peers who abused my physically in pre teen years. Upon starting marijuana usage with these peers, they saw that I reacted to the substance and proceeded to abuse me psychologically. This planted the seeds necessary to catalyze a lifetime of delusion and exploration of waste and dipping my toes into counter culture. Now almost entirely alone and disconnected from any meaningful social roots, and suicidal much of the way, I’ve long since disconnected from such malicious people. The group of friends from high school who didn’t use marijuana ostracized me by 18 and I stopped being alive since then. Now I’m in my 40’s and have been preparing for suicide with increasing inevitability since starting weed. I “gave up” on a fulfilled life as a teenager and have coasted my way to an inevitable suicide as a “stoner”.
    • DaniloDias 7y ago
      Hang in there. The flow state you can get from both coding and math are very nourishing.
    • vangelio 7y ago
      You'd feel a kinship with the author of Psalm 13. For every time I've been caught in the place described in the first four verses, Christ has gifted me to see the other side in the last ones. There's only one way to be sure you'll never have a chance to rejoice like that, and I pray both that you'll seek help before it comes to that, and that you'll be granted the same joy it describes.
• telaelit 7y ago
  When I was 16 I started smoking weed almost everyday until I was 20, I took a break until I was 22, and now I live in a legal state and I enjoy a joint or two on the weekends. I haven't had any problems whatsoever. I work as a software engineer and I got all As throughout school. I realize this might not be the case for everyone, but that has been my experience.
  • jimbokun 7y ago
    So sounds like its Russian Roulette, some adolescents may not suffer many ill effects, and for others it will be really bad. So probably better not to take that chance.
    • ozzmotik 7y ago
      well i mean you can frame any question of probability as russian roulette if you were determined to. the difference is, you go into russian roulette where absolutely dying is a guaranteed possible outcome, whereas what you were responding to exists more on a spectrum of possibilities, all subject to different risk factors external to this metaphorical game of russian roulette. im js that in terms of the game parameters, i think it's difficult to map something with so few to something with so many effectively.
• yodsanklai 7y ago
  I have a very close friends who has been smoking cannabis daily since he was 15 years old. We are both in our 40s now. I have the feeling he is quite fast thinking and that he has better memory than me. That being said, he isn't a happy person, his whole life revolves around cannabis and it seems he missed so many things in his life because of that. It's pretty sad actually. He's aware of it, but it's such a central part of his life that he just can't stop. It's always difficult to say if the substance ruined his life, or if he uses it because he has other problems. Probably both. I'm all for legalization, as long as people are well informed of the negative effects of chronic use.
  • anon9001 7y ago
    It's a subculture. Being a pothead is culturally very similar to being a gun nut. If you take a restricted or poorly understood item that provides enjoyment but is a bit taboo, and give people space to modify/grow/experiment/etc with it, it's spawns a subculture and people associate their identity with it. It happens with hackers too, and porn, and weird nicotine vape culture, and I'm sure many other things.
    • chillwaves 7y ago
      People identify with their hobbies and their consumption habits (music, movie tastes), or the things they own (car, house, electronics). I'm not seeing how the pot culture is especially destructive compared to say, binge watching Netflix.
  • chillwaves 7y ago
    > his whole life revolves around cannabis and it seems he missed so many things in his life because of that Any examples? Just imagine if you made the same statement about someone smoking cigarettes. And with vaping now, both bad habits are pretty discreet.
• apl002 7y ago
  Ive smoked for about 15 years now. Started heavy through highschool and college and after college usually just a rip before bedtime. I cant say I've experienced anything negative. No issues focusing or memory problems, or dealing with stress/anxiety. I've quit for months at a time cold turkey with no issues. I'll probably never fully quit but I am doing it less just cause I worry about the effects on my lungs more than anything.
  • mdorazio 7y ago
    Anecdote like this is bad for two reasons: 1) How do you know you wouldn't have done better had you not smoked starting in high school? You can't go back in time and A/B test yourself 2) Your personal physiology may be fine with marijuana use, but that's not a guarantee that the same applies to everyone else. I'm sure plenty of HN readers (myself included) knew people in high school who did suffer from marijuana-related focus, effort, and studying problems
    • apl002 7y ago
      I totally agree with you. In my comment I wasn't trying to say the article was false, just my own experiences weren't negative. Some of my closest friends that I smoked all day with in HS never went to college and work in lower wage/service industry jobs. Also to be fair, I was an awful student. However i was always the type that if I didn't want to do something, nothing could get me to do it. Yet when I want to do something, I tend to have pretty positive results. I still think I would have been a terrible student even if I didn't smoke weed. Who knows!
    • sterileopinions 7y ago
      >but that's not a guarantee that the same applies to everyone else It's a pretty well supported statement though. This comment is better applied elsewhere in the thread however.
    • whateveracct 7y ago
      > 1) How do you know you wouldn't have done better had you not smoked starting in high school? You can't go back in time and A/B test yourself It's just high school :) if GP passed and moved on, who cares? High school success becomes more and more of a boolean outcome as you get further away from it imo. And tbh even boolean is generous. "I wish in the past I had tried more things 'cause now I know that being in trouble is a fake idea."
• 0000011111 7y ago
  If we compare the effects of Marijuana on people to those of alcohol and or Oxycodone, I think it is clear to most that the latter two are more destructive. I agree more research is needed on the effects of Marijuana use on people in general. And we need to keep the risk factors in perspective. Many more people will die, hurt others and become addicted to alcohol and or Oxycodone than marijuana. So put that beer down before the bong.
  • wannabcodr 7y ago
    You would think this to be universally good advice based on the risks related to alcohol intoxication and alcoholism, but it’s not. Some people would do better to not smoke weed and instead drink moderately and socially.
    • MiroF 7y ago
      Sure - but policymaking is ultimately a game of averages.
    • LocalH 7y ago
      It's almost like instead of outright banning all of these substances, there needs to be heavy research into them, with a goal of harm reduction.
  • dijksterhuis 7y ago
    As someone who is in recovery for drug and alcohol abuse, my own experience disagrees. Given any choice of substances, I’ll run wild with them. I can successfully self destruct no matter what the substance. Harming not just myself, but everyone around me as I go. From a risk assessment standpoint, yes, marijuana has lower physical impacts (you’re not going to seize from withdrawals afaik). However, the psychological impacts are different to alcohol. Alcohol encourages “release” of emotions. Marijuana closes everything off. Furthermore, the impact I have on society can be damaging with both, but in different ways. So, in my own experience, put down both. It’s a hop, skip and a jump from one heavy night to picking up the beer/spliffs again.
• meiraleal 7y ago
  I smoke heavily for 10 years and if I could say something about the cognitive changes, it was for better. I learnt two foreign languages, more programming languages that I can count with one hand and got out of depression by means of self-awareness and meditation after a joint. Weed+Youtube surely is harmful, but so it is only Youtube (with less fun).
  • ksaj 7y ago
    You didn't say anything about your age, which would be important given that the article is about the developing brain. It's already pretty understood that the negative impact is significantly less in the adult brain. The majority of people I went to HS with that were potheads are in exactly the types of jobs and whatnot that the Surgeon General suggests is most likely. Of course there are a lot of outliers. Nobody said this was 100%. The musicians are still pumping out great music. The artists are still doing artistic things.
    • meiraleal 7y ago
      Fair enough. I started at age of 22 and I'm currently 32. Lots of friends started when they were teenagers and most of them have some issues that can be related to that phase. But also a lot of friends that didn't smoke but watched the same amount of TV have issues that are related to laziness, lack of focus, depression, ADHD, Game addiction.
    • qes 7y ago
      I'm 38 and started smoking daily when I was 13. There's been some periods of break in my life, but mostly I've been a daily smoker for 25 years. I'm the lead developer at my company, who I've been with for 10 years. In my late teenage years I ran my small own software company for a couple years and then a small custom pc builder company for a couple years. I've done manual labor at times. I built furniture for a while. I'm a bit of a homebody, and feel lazy at times, but thinking also of the list of personal hobbies and projects I've done in the last 20 years, I can't really say I'm very lazy at all. I'm also an active father, and polyamorous and in two long-term relationships.
    • 7y ago
• Medicalidiot 7y ago
  THC (Tetrahydrocannabinol) activates cannabinol receptors in one's brain whenever they smoke cannabis. These receptors are responsible to stimulating hunger (why you get munchies) but they also stimulate something called long term depression, which is the process by which your brain forgets memories. The effects take years to decades for anything significant enough to precipitate. Now, I'm not against smoking cannabis just like I'm not against drinking alcohol. I'm for people understanding the risk factors and being fully informed before they make a decision.
  • rewgs 7y ago
    > The effects take years to decades for anything significant enough to precipitate. This sentence is weird to me. Can you rephrase?
    • craftyguy 7y ago
      They are trying to say that THC can cause depression, but it can take many years. I'm just clarifying (and not downvoting, like the rest of 'hacker' 'news'.. lol) and do not necessarily agree/disagree with OP
      • will123195 7y ago
        long-term "depression" (LTD) is an activity-dependent reduction in the efficacy of neuronal synapses
      • deelowe 7y ago
        That doesn't sound like what they were trying to say.
        • craftyguy 7y ago
          .. then please do elaborate/explain away.... FFS your comment is not at all helpful.
          • 7y ago
• pubgforme 7y ago
  Smoking weed for me, at least in my early years (16-18, I'm 29 now) yielded a ton of anxiety. At the time I didn't know, but I would get full-blown anxiety attacks when I'd smoke weed. I've since heard that it depends on the strain, sativa vs indica. Indica == 'in da couch'; anxiety attacks. Sativa is supposed to be a more mellow high. While I don't smoke often now, I do on occasion. I've found that I tend to get anxiety in the beginning, but I've learned to sort of brush it off/ignore it and enjoy my trip. Food for thought.
• bobinaz 7y ago
  These results are, for better or for worse, almost right in line with the stereotypes. I smoked occasionally when I was younger, but many of those friends of mine I’d classify as stoners are noticeably unmotivated and have short attention spans.
• momow 7y ago
  I'm surprised nobody caught that the Surgeon General's advisory text mentions "physical dependence", a term that is not used once in the referenced source. I'm no doctor, but physical and psychological difference seem quite different.
  • cgb223 7y ago
    When you quit smoking weed users will frequently experience insomnia, depression, anxiety, etc It’s not a death sentence, but it’s definitely incentive for people to keep smoking to avoid those effects
  • MiroF 7y ago
    I dabble with occasional heavy bouts of consumption and there is definitely a physical component to the addiction, but it's pretty mild
• tempsolution 7y ago
  This sounds weird. It is linked with suicides and decreased life satisfaction... I wonder how all the other drugs fare, even alcohol and smoking. How did they factor in the bias that is obviously at play here? If I am super happy with my life, I will likely not take an excessive amount of drugs. I would say I am reasonably happy with my life and I like taking drugs every now and then just for fun and because it feels nice. The story goes totally different for people with shit lives (which is the majority of the population unfortunately). If I am already in some sort of depression, drugs will aggravate these problems. They will show how nice you can actually feel, just to go back into your sucking life afterwards. Who wouldn't want to take drugs all day in this scenario? But that doesn't mean that drugs themselves cause these problems. Same as meat itself is not unhealthy. The link by statistics is very much against "Correlation does not imply Causation".
• true_tuna 7y ago
  I’m glad this came out. It’s easy to forget that weed causes harm. Just from my own experience, when I’m on it I can’t think straight, can’t track a sentence from beginning to end. I can’t imagine where I’d be if those effects had applied long term as my brain was developing. Actually I can imagine. I’d be incapable of doing the high-paid, satisfying work I do now. I’d be stuck doing toilsome work with nowhere to go and a feeling that there’s more but I can’t quite grasp it.
  • zzddffgg 7y ago
    I sometimes I have a feeling this is the case, as a regular user. But to clarify, I'm struggling with understanding differential geometry, and work as an se. Not trying to humblebrag but just trying to establish context. Should I be worried? I ask because I experience some of the same symptoms you do.
• wolco 7y ago
  Talking about Marijuana as this singular substance is demeaning the details. Different types, strains, turpen profiles, cbd levels, cbn levels all change the effects. Does a higher cbd amount change the data? What about changing the levels of thc. Does hindu kush provide less anxiety vs purple haze over time? It feels like it's way to early to draw grand conclusions.
• anon234345566 7y ago
  I decided to share a bit. Some of you already shared about differents effects of THC in different people. This is an example. We need this drug intensively tested, without any political or cultural bias. Well, I'm the mother of a 5+ years old kid, and we are using THC oil with him, under medical control. My kid had been early diagnosed with a case of extreme anxiety at the age of 2-3 years old (you can't precisely diagnose this), imagine it as a case of autism without several syntoms; he was already well into the second year being medicated with risperidone + carbamazepine which allowed him to have a more or less standard life. But, starting at 4 years old the stress related to extra requirements in school began to be highly crippling for him again. Then we asked our neurologist about THC. We were advised by him, and then contacted a parent of an autistic adult who regularly use THC to be able to function (preventing extremely violent reactions). So we tried it, precisely dosifying the oil, without leaving the other drugs. THC works in my kid allowing him to remain calm under extreme stress. It is really a process but the main - under the table, because is illegal here to use THC, not talking about giving it to kids - medical advise is to use THC like ibuprofen. If you see the kid is having a bad time trying to control himself, you give him a dose of oil. If the kid is going to have a stressful day in school, you give him a stronger dose. I have personally never consumed drugs previous to THC. That was because when I buyed the oil, I tried it to know exactly what effects would be going through my kid. With new batches of oil we use to test it in minimal doses (this is a requirement from the neurologist: we buy oil specifically made for medical purposes - more expensive - but the process is handmade, and different batches could be slightly more soft or stronger in its effects). If you have a medical issue with a kid, and you're out of solutions, then you usually get to this point. That was my case, and the cases of several parents with I have contacted since we started this path. THC as you could probably read in many sites in the internet could have a lot more effects in people than causing anxiety and delusional states of mind. What the article says could be just true, but as with many legal drugs, for example diazepam, the effects are REALLY different if "standard" person consumes it, than when a person with extreme anxiety uses it.
• imvetri 7y ago
  People complain about the bad sides of it. - memory dysfunction is the root of all effects. If you loose memory why do you care. Did you worry about memory when you were kid? Practice learning by self experience not by reading other researchers work. It works only for them.so discard it. It's a holy herb and cleans your mind. If you had memory issues it probably removed things that you don't like. Now start looking what else you are. You can't. Because you wasted your time with social influences. Instead practice meditation. Worship your mind. Keep it disciplined. One man's took another man's weapons. If you are a fool, you will remain a fool. Stay cool, and think what you can do. It changes perspection. If you don't embrace it, you will see it's a loose shoe lace. Be original, learn to be good and right. Expand your knowledge from there. Memory is killed because it kills unhealthy influence you had and you forced yourself to be that. Be grateful that it gave you memory issue. Rebuild yourself from cleaned mind. Being Grateful comes from meditation. Once weed kills bad memories, being grateful helps you grow knowledge from the pure memory.
  • deleted 7y ago
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