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I hate to be _that_ person, but $21 / hr minimum is more than EMTs, and even most surgical Residents make (at least in the US). I don't know how to interpret t
by s3r3nity 7y ago
I hate to be _that_ person, but $21 / hr minimum is more than EMTs, and even most surgical Residents make (at least in the US).
I don't know how to interpret this in that context: is this proposal absurd, or is the medical / labor system in the US absurd? (or both??)
- docker_up 7y agoYeah I don't know how much more people expect to be paid. It's a completely unskilled job that almost anyone can do. Complaining that $21/hr isn't enough would be insane at this point.
- behringer 7y agoWell the CEO of walmart pulls in 22 million a year. I can tell you right now that 21/hr is doable for every unskilled laborer in the US today.
- pequalsnp 7y agoThe problem that arises is that if you artificially inflate someone's wages to an arbitrary number like 21/hr, they might not provide enough value to economically justify the wage level they're set at. It's not, and shouldn't be, an emotional argument. It's an economical one.
- behringer 7y agoThe CEO of walmart most certainly isn't worth 22 million/year. If you can't bring in 21/hour as a cab driver you probably shouldn't be driving cab, especially considering you should be pulling in, what, well over 100/hr gross?
- pequalsnp 7y agoWhat evidence do you have that the CEO doesn't bring that much in value to Walmart?
- behringer 7y ago"Bad managers cost just as much as good managers." https://investorplace.com/2018/07/are-ceos-really-worth-what-theyre-paid/ https://investorplace.com/2018/07/are-ceos-really-worth-what... See also: https://www.wsj.com/articles/big-companies-pay-ceos-for-good-performanceand-bad-11558085402 https://www.wsj.com/articles/big-companies-pay-ceos-for-good... https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/06/16/the-highest-paid-ceos-are-the-worst-performers-new-study-says/#6045b5607e32 https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/06/16/the-highe...
- pequalsnp 7y agoI CTRL+F'd for Walmart in each article but didn't find anything. I thought that was the topic of discussion?
- behringer 7y agoYou're mistaken
- tryptophan 7y agoThese articles present an incredibly naive analysis of the situation. The logic is "high pay should equal high stock performance" but this fails to recognize that in an effecient market the ability and salary of the ceo would already be priced into the stock, and thus would have "no effect" on its performance. You can't prove that the stock would've done less-worse if a different (lower paid) ceo was there, which is essentially what these articles try and argue.
- smileysteve 7y agoThe economic argument however, also includes taxes, the welfare state, etc; If a job pays less than the cost of living in an area, then the job is somewhere between subsidized by the government or not economically viable.
- morvita 7y agoFrankly, I don't care about any economic argument that says people shouldn't have the ability to put food on their table, a roof over their head, and have decent healthcare. Any company that cannot be profitable and pay their employees enough to cover basic needs shouldn't exist as a company.
- dymk 7y agoThey can go find a different job that pays more. Uber driving is not skilled labor. How it’s justified as a 21/hr job I don’t understand.
- morvita 7y agoI genuinely don't know how to explain that the fact it requires an income of more than 21/hr to meet basic needs is all the justification that should be required. Maybe if we stopped thinking of employees/contractors as "labor" and thought of them as people it would be easier to empathize with their needs. Do you think that your friends, family, and loved ones deserve a wage that meets their basic needs? Why shouldn't all humans deserve the same?
- dymk 7y agoIt only requires that amount if you’re intent on living in the most expensive cities in the entire country.
- my_username_is_ 7y ago>$21 isn’t a living wage for any category of worker in the San Francisco metro area except a single adult or two adults living together Is it really insane that people should get paid a living wage, regardless of whether it's a 'skilled job' or not?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- ben509 7y agoA "living wage" bundles the assumption that a single wage must pay for all your expenses in maintaining a predetermined standard of living and that there's no other possible arrangement that should be considered. And that is, in fact, insane, as it's contrary to the experience of anyone who has worked two jobs, shared a flat, budgeted, or otherwise been creative in making ends meet.
- fwip 7y ago"People deserve to be able to live comfortably on a single job at 40 hours a week." "Nuh uh, some people have been creative and survived under the current system!"
- jtcruthers 7y agoYes, it is. Is it really that insane that doing a job a monkey could do shouldn't be paid the same as jobs that require actual skill? Why can't that be a job you do on the side for a little extra cash on the weekends? Why does every job need to provide a "living wage"?
- abugheratwork 7y ago$21.00 x 40 hours x 52 weeks = 43,680 in pay, for roughly one year. $3,706 x 12 months = $44,472 in rent. That's the first number I found on google for "san francisco average rent price" (without quotes). I agree that those numbers are insane. Accusing someone who makes less than he needs to rent decent housing of complaining seems quite wrong. I understand that San Francisco is at the high end of cost of living. It's also where Uber and Lyft are centered. The point of the article seems to be that Uber and Lyft support this idea because they're hoping to undermine more meaningful protective legislation, specifically California Assembly Bill 5. Claiming that this low-ball offer from large corporations would be too hurtful to those corporations, and far too generous to their workers, would be ... insane, right?
- jefftk 7y agoWhile SF rents are nuts, just paying people more doesn't fix it: we need to allow more housing to be built.
- acchow 7y agoThis is about a California policy. San Francisco makes up 2.3% of California's population. It's not even relevant to this discussion.
- sokoloff 7y agoShould someone necessarily be able to afford an apartment on their own in one of the most expensive housing markets from an activity that nearly every American adult does?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- ghobs91 7y agoHere's a thought experiment I like to use whenever this comes up. If someone were to approach you on the street and ask you to do something for them that will take an hour of your time, what amount of money do you think would be a fair compensation for just the time expense? Now add to that the fact that it's not just an hour of someones time, it's also an hour of use of an expensive machine they own and maintain. I've found that when minimum wage is thought of in this way, anything less than $20-25/hour sounds absurd.
- skybrian 7y agoIt's not as high as it seems because they have to pay for the car.
- t-writescode 7y agoAnd they’re probably only paid when they’re in transit to their next pick up and while driving their current pickup, or else when people are double-dipping on Uber and Lyft, they would theoretically be being paid $42/hr
- paconbork 7y agoI assume they would need to accept whatever rides come their way under such a scheme, as otherwise they could just idle and collect money Edit: From the proposal: "drivers would earn a minimum of approximately $21 per hour while on a trip, including the costs of their average expenses" So yeah, it looks like it would only apply to time spent on a drive. I hope it at least includes the time it takes to get to a customer as well. I had an interesting conversation with a Lyft driver a while back who explained that if you're mainly moving people short distances in the suburbs, you're hardly breaking even. It would be neat if a pay structure could incentivise being available in lower-demand areas but I guess we're not there yet
- strig 7y agoI would argue that EMTs and surgical residents are ludicrously underpaid if that's the current reality.
- SkyPuncher 7y agoMost residents are ridiculously underpaid given the circumstances. Salaries are pretty solidly in the $50k range, but the number of hours (up to 80/week) equates to abysmal hourly pay.
- t-writescode 7y agoCorrect. The right response here is not ‘pay Uber employees less’, it’s ‘pay EMTs’ more. Improving society and equalizing society can mean lifting everyone up, not keeping others down.
- ssully 7y agoUnfortunately that is not the approach most people take. Oddly enough I have two friends, one an EMT and the other an RNA, both of which are paid terribly (well below $21hr), but love to share the ever popular memes that make fun of fast food workers asking for higher minimum wage. It's crazy to me that they feel taken advantage of, but decide the best option is to try and push down those who are even or below their pay grade, instead of focusing their sights higher at those at the top.
- minikites 7y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality >While any one crab could easily escape, its efforts will be undermined by others, ensuring the group's collective demise.
- primroot 7y agoThe Principle of Least Action applied to human collective instincts.
- SN76477 7y ago
- wahlrus 7y agoSincere question: is this true in the SF Bay and/or California? $21/hr might not make sense in Cincinnati (edit: Cincinnati is just an example)--local context is important.
- draw_down 7y agoThen maybe people in those roles should be paid more. Or maybe they should quit to drive Ubers.
- xamuel 7y agoPrediction: If this goes through, there will be such an oversupply of drivers, that in order to beat the competition, drivers will de facto have to adopt unofficial practices like "Ok, you wanted to go 20 miles, we've gone 10 miles, now change the destination to where we are now, and pay me for the 10 miles, I'll drive you the other 10 miles off-the-record."
- snarf21 7y agoI think that is the missing piece in all the minimum wage law proposals. It greatly devalues everyone making a similar amount to what the new wage would be. If someone went to two years of a trade school, their investment in increased earning power has been eroded. Eventually, these industries will have to raise their wages in order to continue to attract talent. This does mean that these industries will all have to raise prices to cover the higher costs. In the end, everything will settle down and the people with the higher minimum wage may actually have lost actual buying power. Rich people don't tend to frequent places where people make minimum wage. So raising prices in those locations mostly hurts poor people. I think we need to just be smarter about helping the poor. How about we get rid of income tax for people under the poverty level (or multiple there of)? How about we give them some basic income to make up the difference? We can tax more on the high side to make up the difference. Also, giving poor people more fluid income will likely increase the velocity of money which should make rich people richer negating any increased taxation.
- kerkeslager 7y agoEMTs and surgical residents typically have very good health insurance.
- hinkley 7y agoAnd they don't pay for their ambulance or the maintenance on that ambulance. Work out the cost per mile, and the average miles per hour, that number comes down quite a bit. Especially in places where car insurance is higher.
- s3r3nity 7y agoWell, I mean they should - they're highly skilled and paid a lot of time and $ in education and training. And these things are relative: they're specialized and require more training that many other positions - more so than drivers. If they're going to be paid less, they need to be compensated elsewhere.
- Fogest 7y agoI would not consider a basic "EMT" highly skilled. Maybe a paramedic, then yes, but not an EMT. However if you're referring to residents than yes they would be considered a lot more skilled. It doesn't take much schooling to become an "EMT". However with what they have to deal with and how essential the services are, they definitely should get paid more fairly.
- FireBeyond 7y agoI guarantee you that EMTs definitely do NOT typically have very good health insurance, speaking as someone who has worked as one for multiple companies and as an educator in EMS in this region. If you're talking fire department-based EMTs, then yes, but these make up a significant minority of EMTs who are often running on minimum wage and often given the bare minimum of health insurance.
- kerkeslager 7y agoWell, I suppose "good health insurance" is subjective, but keep in mind we're comparing this to no health insurance.
- GhostVII 7y agoThere is a fair bit of overhead that comes with being an Uber driver (gas, maintenance, the cost of the car, additional taxes). So if you are being paid $21 an hour your take home will still be a lot lower than someone being paid $21 an hour in a normal job.
- SN76477 7y agoCorrect. When I was driving, I could make abut $1000 a week when working 60 hours. $150 of that would be gas 35 would be insurance 15 would be oil changes $50 per week should be set aside for savings to reinvest into the vehicle in the form of proper maintenance. the final number, $750 for working 60 hours 12.5/hr
- GhostVII 7y agoDid you factor in depreciation as well? I would imagine that the additional miles on the vehicle would cause pretty significant depreciation, and would shorten the life of the vehicle, requiring you to buy a new one sooner if you are planning on keeping it until it dies.
- rzimmerman 7y agoTo make it a fair comparison to full-time or even part-time work as an employee, I think you'd need to take into account the cost of car insurance, health insurance, having a car, car maintenance, gas, a smart phone + plan, time spent getting inspected, and other overhead. It's probably closer to ~$15/hr after all of that. I wouldn't be surprised if they derived $21 as California minimum wage + costs of driving.
- tmh79 7y agoI mean, its also essentially tax free money as you get a ~.50$ tax relief/mile driven, so IMO with all the costs you probably are equivalent or possibly better than a 21/hour job.
- papreclip 7y agoBelow ~$45k/yr, the actual income tax rate paid is zero or negative after filing for a return. These are the 47% of Americans that Mitt Romney correctly described as paying no income tax. A $21/hr tax-free job minus driving costs is still equivalent to a $15/hr job. It's definitely not equivalent to a $21/hr job riding around in someone else's ambulance burning someone else's gas. And from what I'm seeing, residents make ~$60k/yr. That job is also a stepping stone to a much more lucrative profession.
- locust101 7y agoI have made $20k/year when I was in grad school and I definitely paid income tax. 18-20% overall IIRC.
- jcranberry 7y agoTaxi drivers don't work 100+ hour work weeks with 24 hour shifts or have to pay malpractice insurance.
- cheriot 7y agoMitt Romney talking about only income tax is intentionally myopic. What's their total tax burden including payroll taxes?
- WhompingWindows 7y agoDo you have data to support your claim on the EMTs and surgical residents? That sounds surprising to me on the EMT front, though surgical residents presumably are paid quite low because their earnings will exponentially grow in the coming years.
- fucking_tragedy 7y agoIf you Google "EMT average salary" or "EMT average hourly rate" you'll see that EMTs are notoriously underpaid. In my high CoL state, EMTs make roughly $15-$18.75/hr, work multiple back-to-back shifts and often nights.
- WhompingWindows 7y agoYikes, just looked on Glassdoor, $30k yearly for EMTs in the Providence, RI area. These are professionally certified people with numerous skills, first-contact for emergent health issues, and they get paid barely more than very low-skilled service workers, many of whom are now receiving $15/h (that's great for them, but damn EMTs deserve more).
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- dragonwriter 7y ago> I hate to be _that_ person If that was true, you could just not be that person.
- k26dr 7y agoThis is a completely reasonable take. You don't have a right to live in a city that requires $50/hr to live comfortably. $21/hr is an amazing pay rate for what is essentially unskilled labor
- perpetualpatzer 7y agoI understood the article to say the policy is specifically $21/hr while on a trip. Is their any publically available data about how much time Uber drivers spend waiting to be assigned a ride? The fully loaded rate is potentially much lower.
- kart23 7y agoYeah, this isnt a minimum wage because they're not even getting paid a wage. They're getting a slice of each customers payment, and if uber really cares about their drivers, they would call for a minimum percentage that drivers receive.
- sdinsn 7y ago$21/hr is the minimum wage for when they have a passenger in the car. EMTs still get paid even if they don't have a passenger
- ilaksh 7y agoIt's not $21/hr at all. It's 21/hr "while driving". If there are a lot of Uber drivers and low demand, they could spend half of their time sitting around earning 0. So this wording is essentially fraudulent.
- toephu2 7y agoHow much do EMTs make in San Francisco?
- lysp 7y agoDo EMTs only get paid when they're transporting a patient or during their downtime too?