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Apple expands parts access to more independent repair businesses

586 points by ehPReth 7y ago

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
cfitz 7y ago
How convenient this is, as negative PR grows surrounding their 2016- MBP product line.
- bdcravens 7y ago
  I don't think it's really growing. There was an article on HN yesterday, but in general, the sentiment hasn't really changed that much.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
reustle 7y ago
Look forward to Louis Rossmann's response to this news Keeping an eye out: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2mFZoRqjw_ELax4Yisf6w https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2mFZoRqjw_ELax4Yisf6w
- jrodthree24 7y ago
  Looking forward to Clinton the cat's responce
- rzzzt 7y ago
  Your wish has been granted: https://youtu.be/3tRq5niOM7Q https://youtu.be/3tRq5niOM7Q
  - judge2020 7y ago
    At the end he talks about being able to source some parts from Apple and continue ordering aftermarket parts otherwise, but that wouldn't make sense for Apple. Chances are they will require you follow the same procedures as AASPs in terms of not using any aftermarket parts if you can't get them from Apple and having to send some repairs in if Apple tells you to.
    - rzzzt 7y ago
      Didn't he say that he'll be most likely not eligible for this program precisely because he doesn't want to give up on alternative sources where no officially supplied items are available (individual ICs were cited as an example)?
voidwtf 7y ago
I feel like this is an end-run attempt to avoid right-to-repair legislation. While I hope for the best from this program, it seems to little to late and in direct opposition of prior arguments they’ve made concerning third-party repairs and parts distribution. I feel like this will just end up being used in court to support their side of the right-to-repair debate.
- snazz 7y ago
  It could be, but it also seems to be a satisfactory compromise from all sides. Customers get independent repair services with genuine parts, repair services don't need to jump through as many hoops to be considered first-class, and Apple avoids getting attacked as much over right-to-repair laws.
  - magashna 7y ago
    Yet to be proven, and right-to-repair isn't only concerned with Apple. I'm sure farmers with John Deere tractors are also on board for these laws. They should continue demanding these laws despite any attempts at compromise.
  - jorvi 7y ago
    And if I am capable enough to service my own device, how would I get the parts? At least I'm assuming Apple will not allow those independent repair shops to sell parts to individuals.
    - ben509 7y ago
      It's hard to see how they'd enforce that. You get a bill with $0 for labor and $x for materials, you just bought parts.
      - jakobegger 7y ago
        The parts alone are probably not enough. A lot of repairs require expensive tools (there was a video circling the net of an iPhone display calibration device -- if you want a proper repair, you need to calibrate the display after replacing it) Also, increasingly there's authentication chips on parts like batteries and you need to somehow match them to make your phone not complain about 3rd party parts. So I assume you need some way to authorize each repair...
zackkatz 7y ago
Title should be updated to say what is happening: Apple launches Independent Repair Provider program
- verst 7y ago
  I don't think your description is accurate. There must be other nuances. Once upon a time (2011-2013) I was an Apple Certified Macintosh technician. We were technically considered a third party Apple-certified repair shop. I was even able to service machines under Apple Care and had access to the same parts the Apple Geniuses received through Apple GSX (Global Service Exchange). My main job was actually software support and custom integrations / deployments of our software. The owner of the company wanted to service our Macs in-house and so I volunteered to learn.
  - r00fus 7y ago
    But that's exactly what Apple is calling it [1]. Maybe we just say they're "rebooting" the program. [1] https://support.apple.com/irp-program https://support.apple.com/irp-program
cosmojg 7y ago
Wow, this is up there with that hilariously tone-deaf Google blog post about cookies and privacy [1]. People want full control over their devices, both software and hardware. This thinly veiled propaganda isn't fooling anyone. [1] https://www.blog.google/products/chrome/building-a-more-private-web/ https://www.blog.google/products/chrome/building-a-more-priv...
- gruez 7y ago
  >People want full control over their devices, both software and hardware. Maybe HN readers, but not most of the population. How does allowing sideloaded apps or unlocked bootloaders help the average soccer mom? If I'm a lawyer/politician/activist, I want a locked down device so someone can't install a backdoor if I lose sight of it for a few minutes.
  - rahuldottech 7y ago
    > If I'm a lawyer/politician/activist, I want a locked down device so someone can't install a backdoor if I lose sight of it for a few minutes. Open devices which you have full control over can be made more secure. With a locked down device, you rely on the manufacturers' implementations, which may not get audited or regularly patched.
    - dymk 7y ago
      Nobody is doing hardware and software security better than Apple right now. Certainly not the open source community. Apple supports devices for 5+ years, you’re throwing up strawmen.
  - la_barba 7y ago
    Given that argument, Microsoft, Apple and other OS makers will pretty soon ship you operating systems without admin privileges, because those sneaky hackerZ might install backdoors...
    - gruez 7y ago
arkades 7y ago
So... they were expecting to end up on the wrong side of congress.
YeahSureWhyNot 7y ago
Just another gimmick bullshit to show when opposing right the repair. Few weeks ago Apple started blocking battery replacements in iPhones, even original ones swapped from another original iphone.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- sascha_sl 7y ago
  No they didn't. The batteries still work. They just wouldn't show health percentages. Because, you know, at that point the gauge could be lying to the user, which is a problem with buying used phones. As an end user you will not have to care. It just (rightfully) takes a chunk off the resell value.
  - Nextgrid 7y ago
    They took an original, new, battery from an Apple phone and put it in the same model phone. Why would the gauge suddenly become unreliable?
    - sascha_sl 7y ago
      Because the device has been tampered with, period. Nothing prevents you from using it as usual. It's essentially just Apple writing "battery has been replaced by not-us, please don't blame us if this doesn't perform as expected or like, explode" in more obscure wording in their system settings. It doesn't work with the original battery because... the company selling that IC to Apple didn't design PKI into them? The critique video literally proves this. This authentication scheme is designed by TI.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
Someone1234 7y ago
By logical extension they should have no objection to right to repair now, correct? Since this undermines the very arguments they've been making for years ("batteries are too dangerous for small repair shops," "they will perform sub-optimal repairs even with the manuals/correct tools!"). I'm glad this is here, legitimately. It is good for users and repair vendors alike. The questions I have is: What next? Have they "seen the light" and fully support R2R, will remain silent/stay out, or still oppose and this is meant to placate.
- danaris 7y ago
  As I understand it, another important part of (at least some proposed) right-to-repair laws involves changing the manufacture of items to be more easily accessible to repair, in ways that make them thicker, more expensive to manufacture, or both. Whether or not you or I believe those are good tradeoffs to make, they are also reasons Apple would oppose such legislation.
- dpkonofa 7y ago
  >"they will perform sub-optimal repairs even with the manuals/correct tools!" This is exactly what the required certification aims to address. It's exactly what they've always said with regard to their authorized repair programs. The only difference is that the program is now more accessible because the certification is free. Businesses that want to run the full authorized repair program still have to pay for the rest of the certifications.
  - labawi 7y ago
    I believe it (should be) my right to have my neighbor Joe do a shoddy repair/replacement with genuine parts on a mass-market device, in exchange for parts cost and a piece of pie.
    - dpkonofa 7y ago
      And I believe that it should be your right also but I also believe that it's Apple's right to not sell you parts, if they don't want to. I also believe that if they're willing to sell your neighbor Joe the parts to do the repair under the condition that he does the repair according to their standards, then that's fair for all parties involved. Your option is unfair to Apple because their brand is damaged by Joe's shitty repair. I don't think it's unfair to Joe for Apple to refuse to sell him a part without certification.
JaimeThompson 7y ago
I don't see any mention of how long they are willing to keep the program up an running. If they are just using this to keep Right to Repair laws from passing this program might not be around all that long.
Fickry 7y ago
Just another new gimmicks from apple
kesor 7y ago
And yet somehow I doubt that these repairs will be covered by Apple Care. Even though most probably people don't care all that much.
- somebadguy 7y ago
  Read the fucking article you ignorant moron
- bdcravens 7y ago
  Apple Care isn't cheap. It's getting more accessible, with the ability to pay monthly instead of up front, but I think there's a significant number of consumers who never buy Apple Care.
dev_dull 7y ago
One of my favorite youtubers is a channel named STS telecom[1]. He uses various tools to repair logic boards on iPhones. It’s incredibly satisfying to watch him hunt down a shorted capacitor the size of the end of a toothpick. Then like magic the phone works perfectly. What it also taught me is that even the the phones are becoming more complicated, they’re also still repairable. Apples move is laudable here, and important at reducing e-waste. 1. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC39yMXOL0ubFxLWwF1RwelA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC39yMXOL0ubFxLWwF1RwelA
- a012 7y ago
  Also Louis Rossmann channel where he repairs Macbooks while ranting about Apple.
  - philjohn 7y ago
    Pity this is for iPhones only ... Louis would be a happier man if he could get access to genuine Apple parts instead of having to scavenge for them from other dead machines. He'd also need the same software they have access to though to provision a new T2 chip ...
    - Scoundreller 7y ago
      Donors boards can be very inexpensive. There’s a very small market for broken boards that are otherwise only good for scrap. The only problem is when a particular component is really prone to failure and becomes rate limiting, while having no 3rd party supply. (Ie: a burned out resistor is easier to swap than carry a full part count of every combination. While a custom chip that fails is really bad news).
      - philjohn 7y ago
        The big problem Rossman has is that if the T2 chip goes the entire logic board is dead UNLESS you have the internal Apple tool to pair a new T2 chip to it.
  - 7y ago
mistrial9 7y ago
its not Machiavellian, no, we as an economic age are past mere psychology .. Producing the kinds of non-repairable consumer electronics that are produced for the last thirty years is ruthlessly usury of people, materials inputs, trade law, credit, investment vehicles, tax shelters, the list is endless .. A "right to repair" in 2019 is a pathetic joke. A product designed to be repaired is a completely different physical device, a different business ecosystem, a different mental model on the part of the consumer, and of course the architects of the buying, the providing corporation. Make no mistake, this world is choking on hundreds of billions of tons of non-degradable, poisonous remnants of consumer goods, with much more in the pipeline every day. Putting lipstick on these tiny moves should be called out for what it is...
- ackfoo 7y ago
  You are a beacon of truth in the wilderness of stupidity and selfishness that is unfettered capitalism. We need draconian laws to limit this behaviour now, before we have no more air to breathe and no more water to drink. Having the latest consumer gadget is useless in a time of total ecological collapse. Laws: (1) Building codes to mandate net-zero buildings. Most of this can be accomplished with decent insulation. (2) Enforced warranties on appliances of 25 years, and on consumer electronics a minimum of 5 years. (3) Completely prohibit lockdown of devices by the manufacturer using strong encryption. (4) Mandate availability of schematics and repair manuals. (5) Mandate sale of OEM parts to individuals and business outside of the vertically-integrated service system. and, most importantly, (6) A one-child policy until lifestyle * numbers reaches sustainable levels, along with a complete moratorium on immigration, except for emergency refugee cases, such as gay people fleeing death in Islamic countries. We must regulate our numbers until the coral reefs revive, until there is no more plastic in the oceans, until CO2 levels return to normal, until biodiversity recovers and the great extinction is stopped. And we must not act as a relief valve for economic refugees from the rest of the world seeking to achieve the wasteful and deplorable lifestyle that we have established.
ericabiz 7y ago
We run 7 independent repair shops, so on its face this is great news for us. I did sign us up for this program, and we are beginning the process today of getting at least 1-2 people at all of our locations to be certified. There is lots of good news here for us; the biggest being that we can get official parts...finally! Although aftermarket parts have come a long way. We now stock iPhone batteries that have larger capacity than the original. (Yes, truly a larger capacity. We do 30,000+ repairs a year...we are not messing around with batteries that just say they have a larger capacity.) The biggest problem I potentially see is profit margins. AASP's have long struggled because Apple wants to squeeze all of the profit out of their business. If you pay $149 to get your iPhone 8 screen replaced, but Apple charges us $135 for the screen, we can't realistically make any money off of that. We charge $69 to replace an iPhone 8 screen currently, so there's also a potential negative on the consumer side of having to pay more to get screens replaced. It does, however, appear that Apple will let providers in this program also offer third-party screens, which is a big change from the current AASP program. All in all, as someone whose business is directly affected by this, I'm mildly optimistic. As long as Apple understands that repair shops need to be profitable too, this can be a really good thing for both sides.
- ProAm 7y ago
  Can't you just charge different prices for Official Apple Certified parts vs aftermarket. Should keep your profit margins the same.
  - ericabiz 7y ago
    No one knows for sure at this point...by reading this press release, you have as much information as we do. It's our hope that we can do that, but if people come in and pick the Apple screen, we'd like to make as much margin as we currently do on the aftermarket screens.
    - Despegar 7y ago
      I don't think that's realistic. You're getting genuine parts from Apple, not parts that fell off a truck in China. If you want the same margin, raise your prices.
cushychicken 7y ago
I'm curious if this move is impacted by the tariff situation at all. Could Apple be thinking that selling authorized components for repair could be a decent backstop for declining iPhone sales to their most price-sensitive customers? I could see how someone with reduced means would pay to have their iPhone repaired instead of buying a new one, if tariffs spiked the new iPhone prices up by, I dunno, say 20% for the sake of discussion. I hear the Right to Repair end run argument, but that doesn't seem like it's necessarily the whole explanation to me.
- esturk 7y ago
  Totally. Apple even says that their services make more money than their hardware. But without the hardware, the services will also go down. Apple need to keep people in their wall garden. There's a threshold they need to keep at or else their influence will wane considerably like the Mac vs PC fight.
exabrial 7y ago
Wise move. If I were them, I'd do this on my own terms before regulation comes down the pipe.
cfitz 7y ago
Glad to see this, being that my 2018 MBP unit has been serviced 6x cumulatively (3x keyboard, 2x logic board, 1x display) and replaced entirely 1x. I am not a fan of the time it takes to drive to the store 2x, talk with several levels of tech support, and ultimately spend $4.5k on a “loaner” since Apple doesn’t have a loaner laptop program.
- ericabiz 7y ago
  Unfortunately, this particular program only includes iPhone parts.
- delfinom 7y ago
  What? Are people so fucking nuts they spend that kind of money vs. just buying a cheap laptop running Windows or ChromeOS?
  - jbverschoor 7y ago
    It takes 1 hour to transfer everything from one mac to another.
reaperducer 7y ago
After reading all the griping on HN about Apple's supposedly draconian independent repair policies, I was very surprised with my recent experience. I phoned Apple last week to get the battery replaced in my 2011 MacBook Air, and the nice lady said that Apple won't fix it because it's classified as obsolete. I wasn't mad or anything; I kind of figured that would happen since the computer is eight years old. What I didn't expect is that she had a list of independent, authorized Apple repair places at her fingertips, and e-mailed me the information for a few. Even in the craptastic low-end town I live in, there were three options. I was very surprised. Brought my computer in, and the price is $180 — $130 for the battery, and $50 for the labor. Seems about right. When I priced the battery replacement last year (before it was "obsolete"), it was $130. I guess Apple doesn't charge for labor. There was an interesting sign in the store. It was an Apple sign, and it asked to be sure to provide the store with an e-mail address, because Apple may follow up to find out if the store's service was up to Apple standards. I thought that was very interesting. I haven't picked up my computer yet (the store had to order the battery). But I'm curious to find out if I'll get picked for my feedback.
- devilmoon 7y ago
  I suggest you watch some videos by Louis Rossmann on youtube to understand the problems with Apple's repair policies. The problem isn't with Apple certified repair shops, but with independent repair shops
  - danaris 7y ago
    Every time Apple's repair policies come up on HN, someone mentions Louis Rossmann, and every time they do, someone replies (and it seems like a different person each time) pointing out that he has a significant bias against Apple, and to take what he says about them with a grain of salt. All I personally know about it is what I've seen on here, but it does seem like it's worth being a little skeptical about what Rossmann has to say about Apple.
    - devilmoon 7y ago
      I mean, he makes a living out of repairing Apple products even though he's not certified. He might have an innate bias against them for whatever reason, but as someone who is interested in tech but not an Apple user the stuff he says about Apple makes sense to me and doesn't seem biased in order to make them look bad.
derefr 7y ago
Seeing that this is coming just on the heels of increased costs of by-mail shipping from China, I wonder if Apple has been waiting to supply parts until they could be sure that paying for their authentic parts is the only economical option for these shops. Apple wouldn't want to get into a situation where they're supplying parts to these shops and deigning them an "Apple-Authorized Repair Center", but the shops are also buying grey-market parts and certifying those as being under Apply warranty as well. But if it's too expensive to buy the grey-market parts...
ryanmarsh 7y ago
My conspiracy theory hunch is that with the upgradeability (read modest modularization of a few internal components) of the forthcoming Mac Pro more independent repair businesses are going to be necessary to handle the longer service life and component swaps.
- pier25 7y ago
  But end users could be able to replace/upgrade components in a tower, no?
body_lump 7y ago
There is no cost to join Apple’s independent repair program. To qualify for the new program, businesses need to have an Apple-certified technician who can perform the repairs. I have a new goal now.
ropiwqefjnpoa 7y ago
Right-to-repair is working!
radicaldreamer 7y ago
Pretty straightforward attempt to stave off right-to-repair laws... and coming after years of attempts to destroy independent repair businesses. Very hard to see this as a good faith effort by Apple.
- notTyler 7y ago
  This and the Uber 'proposal' coming on the same day! Does the 2019 corporate playbook say cover your ass because regulations are coming or something like that?
- esmi 7y ago
  Apple != entire electronics industry, one would hope the right to repair debate was larger than just Apple. Frankly, I hope it extends past consumer electronics as well.
busterarm 7y ago
Doesn't this just extend the ability to purchase $700 motherboards to independent repair shops? Even if just replacing a cap would do? Will Apple exclude stores that do this type of repair from this program?
adrr 7y ago
Tim Cook realized to grow revenue, services is the future for Apple. More working devices in the market should mean better market share which would mean a larger audience to sell services.
dreamcompiler 7y ago
It's amazing how the threat of attention from antitrust authorities can focus the mind of a corporation on customer service.
alliao 7y ago
I hope they design for devices to be repairable as well. I've learnt that apple watch just aren't repairable, smashed screen is 85% of the original cost.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
Not entirely on topic, but if anyone can suggest a really good, non-Apple iPhone repair place in NYC, I'd appreciate it. I have a Jailbroken iPhone. I want a place that can replace my battery but will not under any circumstances update my phone.
- buildbuildbuild 7y ago
  I’ve had great luck getting screen repairs at iPhone Repair Cafe, above H-Mart on 32nd St. - but I would still categorize it as luck. Nothing beats the scratch/crack resistance of an official Apple part.
SmileyRedBall 7y ago
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/08/apple-offers-customers-even-more-options-for-safe-reliable-repairs/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/08/apple-offers-customer... “There is no cost to join Apple’s independent repair program. To qualify for the new program, businesses need to have an Apple-certified technician who can perform the repairs. The process for certification is simple and free of charge. To learn more and apply, visit support.apple.com/irp-program.” https://support.apple.com/irp-progra https://support.apple.com/irp-progra “Becoming certified to repair Apple products requires passing exams through an online Authorized Testing Center. Certifications are updated on a per product basis annually. The certification exam fees are waived for businesses that have been approved to be an Independent Repair Provider. Detailed information about Apple Certifications preparatory courses and exams can be found here.” https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205332 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205332 “To pass these exams, you need to have access to the training in ATLAS.” “How do I pay for the exams? When you register for the certification exams, you can pay with Visa, MasterCard, or American Express.” https://support.apple.com/kb/HT206048 https://support.apple.com/kb/HT206048 “To access ATLAS, you need to have an active Global Service Exchange (GSX) account or buy AppleCare Technician Training.”
- rasz 7y ago
  >Apple’s repair tools, training, service guides, and diagnostics must be kept confidential.
no_wizard 7y ago
Seems like an indirect response to right to repair, which is gaining some momentum as of late: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/proposed-laws-could-change-how-consumers-get-smartphones-repaired/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/proposed-laws-could-change-how-... FTC is even asking for comments on right to repair until September 16th 2019 https://www.regulations.gov/comment?D=FTC-2019-0013-0001 https://www.regulations.gov/comment?D=FTC-2019-0013-0001 Whether you're for or against, you should comment if this issue is meaningful to you! https://repair.org/policy https://repair.org/policy https://money.howstuffworks.com/right-to-repair.htm https://money.howstuffworks.com/right-to-repair.htm

586 points by ehPReth 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

cfitz 7y ago

How convenient this is, as negative PR grows surrounding their 2016- MBP product line.

bdcravens 7y ago
I don't think it's really growing. There was an article on HN yesterday, but in general, the sentiment hasn't really changed that much.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

reustle 7y ago

Look forward to Louis Rossmann's response to this news Keeping an eye out: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2mFZoRqjw_ELax4Yisf6w https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2mFZoRqjw_ELax4Yisf6w

jrodthree24 7y ago
Looking forward to Clinton the cat's responce
rzzzt 7y ago
Your wish has been granted: https://youtu.be/3tRq5niOM7Q https://youtu.be/3tRq5niOM7Q
- judge2020 7y ago
  At the end he talks about being able to source some parts from Apple and continue ordering aftermarket parts otherwise, but that wouldn't make sense for Apple. Chances are they will require you follow the same procedures as AASPs in terms of not using any aftermarket parts if you can't get them from Apple and having to send some repairs in if Apple tells you to.
  - rzzzt 7y ago
    Didn't he say that he'll be most likely not eligible for this program precisely because he doesn't want to give up on alternative sources where no officially supplied items are available (individual ICs were cited as an example)?

voidwtf 7y ago

I feel like this is an end-run attempt to avoid right-to-repair legislation. While I hope for the best from this program, it seems to little to late and in direct opposition of prior arguments they’ve made concerning third-party repairs and parts distribution. I feel like this will just end up being used in court to support their side of the right-to-repair debate.

snazz 7y ago
It could be, but it also seems to be a satisfactory compromise from all sides. Customers get independent repair services with genuine parts, repair services don't need to jump through as many hoops to be considered first-class, and Apple avoids getting attacked as much over right-to-repair laws.
- magashna 7y ago
  Yet to be proven, and right-to-repair isn't only concerned with Apple. I'm sure farmers with John Deere tractors are also on board for these laws. They should continue demanding these laws despite any attempts at compromise.
- jorvi 7y ago
  And if I am capable enough to service my own device, how would I get the parts? At least I'm assuming Apple will not allow those independent repair shops to sell parts to individuals.
  - ben509 7y ago
    It's hard to see how they'd enforce that. You get a bill with $0 for labor and $x for materials, you just bought parts.
    - jakobegger 7y ago
      The parts alone are probably not enough. A lot of repairs require expensive tools (there was a video circling the net of an iPhone display calibration device -- if you want a proper repair, you need to calibrate the display after replacing it) Also, increasingly there's authentication chips on parts like batteries and you need to somehow match them to make your phone not complain about 3rd party parts. So I assume you need some way to authorize each repair...

zackkatz 7y ago

Title should be updated to say what is happening: Apple launches Independent Repair Provider program

verst 7y ago
I don't think your description is accurate. There must be other nuances. Once upon a time (2011-2013) I was an Apple Certified Macintosh technician. We were technically considered a third party Apple-certified repair shop. I was even able to service machines under Apple Care and had access to the same parts the Apple Geniuses received through Apple GSX (Global Service Exchange). My main job was actually software support and custom integrations / deployments of our software. The owner of the company wanted to service our Macs in-house and so I volunteered to learn.
- r00fus 7y ago
  But that's exactly what Apple is calling it [1]. Maybe we just say they're "rebooting" the program. [1] https://support.apple.com/irp-program https://support.apple.com/irp-program

cosmojg 7y ago

Wow, this is up there with that hilariously tone-deaf Google blog post about cookies and privacy [1]. People want full control over their devices, both software and hardware. This thinly veiled propaganda isn't fooling anyone. [1] https://www.blog.google/products/chrome/building-a-more-private-web/ https://www.blog.google/products/chrome/building-a-more-priv...

gruez 7y ago
>People want full control over their devices, both software and hardware. Maybe HN readers, but not most of the population. How does allowing sideloaded apps or unlocked bootloaders help the average soccer mom? If I'm a lawyer/politician/activist, I want a locked down device so someone can't install a backdoor if I lose sight of it for a few minutes.
- rahuldottech 7y ago
  > If I'm a lawyer/politician/activist, I want a locked down device so someone can't install a backdoor if I lose sight of it for a few minutes. Open devices which you have full control over can be made more secure. With a locked down device, you rely on the manufacturers' implementations, which may not get audited or regularly patched.
  - dymk 7y ago
    Nobody is doing hardware and software security better than Apple right now. Certainly not the open source community. Apple supports devices for 5+ years, you’re throwing up strawmen.
- la_barba 7y ago
  Given that argument, Microsoft, Apple and other OS makers will pretty soon ship you operating systems without admin privileges, because those sneaky hackerZ might install backdoors...
  - gruez 7y ago

arkades 7y ago

So... they were expecting to end up on the wrong side of congress.

YeahSureWhyNot 7y ago

Just another gimmick bullshit to show when opposing right the repair. Few weeks ago Apple started blocking battery replacements in iPhones, even original ones swapped from another original iphone.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
sascha_sl 7y ago
No they didn't. The batteries still work. They just wouldn't show health percentages. Because, you know, at that point the gauge could be lying to the user, which is a problem with buying used phones. As an end user you will not have to care. It just (rightfully) takes a chunk off the resell value.
- Nextgrid 7y ago
  They took an original, new, battery from an Apple phone and put it in the same model phone. Why would the gauge suddenly become unreliable?
  - sascha_sl 7y ago
    Because the device has been tampered with, period. Nothing prevents you from using it as usual. It's essentially just Apple writing "battery has been replaced by not-us, please don't blame us if this doesn't perform as expected or like, explode" in more obscure wording in their system settings. It doesn't work with the original battery because... the company selling that IC to Apple didn't design PKI into them? The critique video literally proves this. This authentication scheme is designed by TI.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

Someone1234 7y ago

By logical extension they should have no objection to right to repair now, correct? Since this undermines the very arguments they've been making for years ("batteries are too dangerous for small repair shops," "they will perform sub-optimal repairs even with the manuals/correct tools!"). I'm glad this is here, legitimately. It is good for users and repair vendors alike. The questions I have is: What next? Have they "seen the light" and fully support R2R, will remain silent/stay out, or still oppose and this is meant to placate.

danaris 7y ago
As I understand it, another important part of (at least some proposed) right-to-repair laws involves changing the manufacture of items to be more easily accessible to repair, in ways that make them thicker, more expensive to manufacture, or both. Whether or not you or I believe those are good tradeoffs to make, they are also reasons Apple would oppose such legislation.
dpkonofa 7y ago
>"they will perform sub-optimal repairs even with the manuals/correct tools!" This is exactly what the required certification aims to address. It's exactly what they've always said with regard to their authorized repair programs. The only difference is that the program is now more accessible because the certification is free. Businesses that want to run the full authorized repair program still have to pay for the rest of the certifications.
- labawi 7y ago
  I believe it (should be) my right to have my neighbor Joe do a shoddy repair/replacement with genuine parts on a mass-market device, in exchange for parts cost and a piece of pie.
  - dpkonofa 7y ago
    And I believe that it should be your right also but I also believe that it's Apple's right to not sell you parts, if they don't want to. I also believe that if they're willing to sell your neighbor Joe the parts to do the repair under the condition that he does the repair according to their standards, then that's fair for all parties involved. Your option is unfair to Apple because their brand is damaged by Joe's shitty repair. I don't think it's unfair to Joe for Apple to refuse to sell him a part without certification.

JaimeThompson 7y ago

I don't see any mention of how long they are willing to keep the program up an running. If they are just using this to keep Right to Repair laws from passing this program might not be around all that long.

Fickry 7y ago

Just another new gimmicks from apple

kesor 7y ago

And yet somehow I doubt that these repairs will be covered by Apple Care. Even though most probably people don't care all that much.

somebadguy 7y ago
Read the fucking article you ignorant moron
bdcravens 7y ago
Apple Care isn't cheap. It's getting more accessible, with the ability to pay monthly instead of up front, but I think there's a significant number of consumers who never buy Apple Care.

dev_dull 7y ago

One of my favorite youtubers is a channel named STS telecom[1]. He uses various tools to repair logic boards on iPhones. It’s incredibly satisfying to watch him hunt down a shorted capacitor the size of the end of a toothpick. Then like magic the phone works perfectly. What it also taught me is that even the the phones are becoming more complicated, they’re also still repairable. Apples move is laudable here, and important at reducing e-waste. 1. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC39yMXOL0ubFxLWwF1RwelA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC39yMXOL0ubFxLWwF1RwelA

a012 7y ago
Also Louis Rossmann channel where he repairs Macbooks while ranting about Apple.
- philjohn 7y ago
  Pity this is for iPhones only ... Louis would be a happier man if he could get access to genuine Apple parts instead of having to scavenge for them from other dead machines. He'd also need the same software they have access to though to provision a new T2 chip ...
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    Donors boards can be very inexpensive. There’s a very small market for broken boards that are otherwise only good for scrap. The only problem is when a particular component is really prone to failure and becomes rate limiting, while having no 3rd party supply. (Ie: a burned out resistor is easier to swap than carry a full part count of every combination. While a custom chip that fails is really bad news).
    - philjohn 7y ago
      The big problem Rossman has is that if the T2 chip goes the entire logic board is dead UNLESS you have the internal Apple tool to pair a new T2 chip to it.
- 7y ago

mistrial9 7y ago

its not Machiavellian, no, we as an economic age are past mere psychology .. Producing the kinds of non-repairable consumer electronics that are produced for the last thirty years is ruthlessly usury of people, materials inputs, trade law, credit, investment vehicles, tax shelters, the list is endless .. A "right to repair" in 2019 is a pathetic joke. A product designed to be repaired is a completely different physical device, a different business ecosystem, a different mental model on the part of the consumer, and of course the architects of the buying, the providing corporation. Make no mistake, this world is choking on hundreds of billions of tons of non-degradable, poisonous remnants of consumer goods, with much more in the pipeline every day. Putting lipstick on these tiny moves should be called out for what it is...

ackfoo 7y ago
You are a beacon of truth in the wilderness of stupidity and selfishness that is unfettered capitalism. We need draconian laws to limit this behaviour now, before we have no more air to breathe and no more water to drink. Having the latest consumer gadget is useless in a time of total ecological collapse. Laws: (1) Building codes to mandate net-zero buildings. Most of this can be accomplished with decent insulation. (2) Enforced warranties on appliances of 25 years, and on consumer electronics a minimum of 5 years. (3) Completely prohibit lockdown of devices by the manufacturer using strong encryption. (4) Mandate availability of schematics and repair manuals. (5) Mandate sale of OEM parts to individuals and business outside of the vertically-integrated service system. and, most importantly, (6) A one-child policy until lifestyle * numbers reaches sustainable levels, along with a complete moratorium on immigration, except for emergency refugee cases, such as gay people fleeing death in Islamic countries. We must regulate our numbers until the coral reefs revive, until there is no more plastic in the oceans, until CO2 levels return to normal, until biodiversity recovers and the great extinction is stopped. And we must not act as a relief valve for economic refugees from the rest of the world seeking to achieve the wasteful and deplorable lifestyle that we have established.

ericabiz 7y ago

We run 7 independent repair shops, so on its face this is great news for us. I did sign us up for this program, and we are beginning the process today of getting at least 1-2 people at all of our locations to be certified. There is lots of good news here for us; the biggest being that we can get official parts...finally! Although aftermarket parts have come a long way. We now stock iPhone batteries that have larger capacity than the original. (Yes, truly a larger capacity. We do 30,000+ repairs a year...we are not messing around with batteries that just say they have a larger capacity.) The biggest problem I potentially see is profit margins. AASP's have long struggled because Apple wants to squeeze all of the profit out of their business. If you pay $149 to get your iPhone 8 screen replaced, but Apple charges us $135 for the screen, we can't realistically make any money off of that. We charge $69 to replace an iPhone 8 screen currently, so there's also a potential negative on the consumer side of having to pay more to get screens replaced. It does, however, appear that Apple will let providers in this program also offer third-party screens, which is a big change from the current AASP program. All in all, as someone whose business is directly affected by this, I'm mildly optimistic. As long as Apple understands that repair shops need to be profitable too, this can be a really good thing for both sides.

ProAm 7y ago
Can't you just charge different prices for Official Apple Certified parts vs aftermarket. Should keep your profit margins the same.
- ericabiz 7y ago
  No one knows for sure at this point...by reading this press release, you have as much information as we do. It's our hope that we can do that, but if people come in and pick the Apple screen, we'd like to make as much margin as we currently do on the aftermarket screens.
  - Despegar 7y ago
    I don't think that's realistic. You're getting genuine parts from Apple, not parts that fell off a truck in China. If you want the same margin, raise your prices.

cushychicken 7y ago

I'm curious if this move is impacted by the tariff situation at all. Could Apple be thinking that selling authorized components for repair could be a decent backstop for declining iPhone sales to their most price-sensitive customers? I could see how someone with reduced means would pay to have their iPhone repaired instead of buying a new one, if tariffs spiked the new iPhone prices up by, I dunno, say 20% for the sake of discussion. I hear the Right to Repair end run argument, but that doesn't seem like it's necessarily the whole explanation to me.

esturk 7y ago
Totally. Apple even says that their services make more money than their hardware. But without the hardware, the services will also go down. Apple need to keep people in their wall garden. There's a threshold they need to keep at or else their influence will wane considerably like the Mac vs PC fight.

exabrial 7y ago

Wise move. If I were them, I'd do this on my own terms before regulation comes down the pipe.

cfitz 7y ago

Glad to see this, being that my 2018 MBP unit has been serviced 6x cumulatively (3x keyboard, 2x logic board, 1x display) and replaced entirely 1x. I am not a fan of the time it takes to drive to the store 2x, talk with several levels of tech support, and ultimately spend $4.5k on a “loaner” since Apple doesn’t have a loaner laptop program.

ericabiz 7y ago
Unfortunately, this particular program only includes iPhone parts.
delfinom 7y ago
What? Are people so fucking nuts they spend that kind of money vs. just buying a cheap laptop running Windows or ChromeOS?
- jbverschoor 7y ago
  It takes 1 hour to transfer everything from one mac to another.

reaperducer 7y ago

After reading all the griping on HN about Apple's supposedly draconian independent repair policies, I was very surprised with my recent experience. I phoned Apple last week to get the battery replaced in my 2011 MacBook Air, and the nice lady said that Apple won't fix it because it's classified as obsolete. I wasn't mad or anything; I kind of figured that would happen since the computer is eight years old. What I didn't expect is that she had a list of independent, authorized Apple repair places at her fingertips, and e-mailed me the information for a few. Even in the craptastic low-end town I live in, there were three options. I was very surprised. Brought my computer in, and the price is $180 — $130 for the battery, and $50 for the labor. Seems about right. When I priced the battery replacement last year (before it was "obsolete"), it was $130. I guess Apple doesn't charge for labor. There was an interesting sign in the store. It was an Apple sign, and it asked to be sure to provide the store with an e-mail address, because Apple may follow up to find out if the store's service was up to Apple standards. I thought that was very interesting. I haven't picked up my computer yet (the store had to order the battery). But I'm curious to find out if I'll get picked for my feedback.

devilmoon 7y ago
I suggest you watch some videos by Louis Rossmann on youtube to understand the problems with Apple's repair policies. The problem isn't with Apple certified repair shops, but with independent repair shops
- danaris 7y ago
  Every time Apple's repair policies come up on HN, someone mentions Louis Rossmann, and every time they do, someone replies (and it seems like a different person each time) pointing out that he has a significant bias against Apple, and to take what he says about them with a grain of salt. All I personally know about it is what I've seen on here, but it does seem like it's worth being a little skeptical about what Rossmann has to say about Apple.
  - devilmoon 7y ago
    I mean, he makes a living out of repairing Apple products even though he's not certified. He might have an innate bias against them for whatever reason, but as someone who is interested in tech but not an Apple user the stuff he says about Apple makes sense to me and doesn't seem biased in order to make them look bad.

derefr 7y ago

Seeing that this is coming just on the heels of increased costs of by-mail shipping from China, I wonder if Apple has been waiting to supply parts until they could be sure that paying for their authentic parts is the only economical option for these shops. Apple wouldn't want to get into a situation where they're supplying parts to these shops and deigning them an "Apple-Authorized Repair Center", but the shops are also buying grey-market parts and certifying those as being under Apply warranty as well. But if it's too expensive to buy the grey-market parts...

ryanmarsh 7y ago

My conspiracy theory hunch is that with the upgradeability (read modest modularization of a few internal components) of the forthcoming Mac Pro more independent repair businesses are going to be necessary to handle the longer service life and component swaps.

pier25 7y ago
But end users could be able to replace/upgrade components in a tower, no?

body_lump 7y ago

There is no cost to join Apple’s independent repair program. To qualify for the new program, businesses need to have an Apple-certified technician who can perform the repairs. I have a new goal now.

ropiwqefjnpoa 7y ago

Right-to-repair is working!

radicaldreamer 7y ago

Pretty straightforward attempt to stave off right-to-repair laws... and coming after years of attempts to destroy independent repair businesses. Very hard to see this as a good faith effort by Apple.

notTyler 7y ago
This and the Uber 'proposal' coming on the same day! Does the 2019 corporate playbook say cover your ass because regulations are coming or something like that?
esmi 7y ago
Apple != entire electronics industry, one would hope the right to repair debate was larger than just Apple. Frankly, I hope it extends past consumer electronics as well.

busterarm 7y ago

Doesn't this just extend the ability to purchase $700 motherboards to independent repair shops? Even if just replacing a cap would do? Will Apple exclude stores that do this type of repair from this program?

adrr 7y ago

Tim Cook realized to grow revenue, services is the future for Apple. More working devices in the market should mean better market share which would mean a larger audience to sell services.

dreamcompiler 7y ago

It's amazing how the threat of attention from antitrust authorities can focus the mind of a corporation on customer service.

alliao 7y ago

I hope they design for devices to be repairable as well. I've learnt that apple watch just aren't repairable, smashed screen is 85% of the original cost.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago

Not entirely on topic, but if anyone can suggest a really good, non-Apple iPhone repair place in NYC, I'd appreciate it. I have a Jailbroken iPhone. I want a place that can replace my battery but will not under any circumstances update my phone.

buildbuildbuild 7y ago
I’ve had great luck getting screen repairs at iPhone Repair Cafe, above H-Mart on 32nd St. - but I would still categorize it as luck. Nothing beats the scratch/crack resistance of an official Apple part.

SmileyRedBall 7y ago

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/08/apple-offers-customers-even-more-options-for-safe-reliable-repairs/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/08/apple-offers-customer... “There is no cost to join Apple’s independent repair program. To qualify for the new program, businesses need to have an Apple-certified technician who can perform the repairs. The process for certification is simple and free of charge. To learn more and apply, visit support.apple.com/irp-program.” https://support.apple.com/irp-progra https://support.apple.com/irp-progra “Becoming certified to repair Apple products requires passing exams through an online Authorized Testing Center. Certifications are updated on a per product basis annually. The certification exam fees are waived for businesses that have been approved to be an Independent Repair Provider. Detailed information about Apple Certifications preparatory courses and exams can be found here.” https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205332 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205332 “To pass these exams, you need to have access to the training in ATLAS.” “How do I pay for the exams? When you register for the certification exams, you can pay with Visa, MasterCard, or American Express.” https://support.apple.com/kb/HT206048 https://support.apple.com/kb/HT206048 “To access ATLAS, you need to have an active Global Service Exchange (GSX) account or buy AppleCare Technician Training.”

rasz 7y ago
>Apple’s repair tools, training, service guides, and diagnostics must be kept confidential.

no_wizard 7y ago

Seems like an indirect response to right to repair, which is gaining some momentum as of late: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/proposed-laws-could-change-how-consumers-get-smartphones-repaired/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/proposed-laws-could-change-how-... FTC is even asking for comments on right to repair until September 16th 2019 https://www.regulations.gov/comment?D=FTC-2019-0013-0001 https://www.regulations.gov/comment?D=FTC-2019-0013-0001 Whether you're for or against, you should comment if this issue is meaningful to you! https://repair.org/policy https://repair.org/policy https://money.howstuffworks.com/right-to-repair.htm https://money.howstuffworks.com/right-to-repair.htm