5 ms·

I really wish this was the top comment. I feel like HN is turning a little too much into an echo chamber dunk fest sometimes.

akkartik 7y ago
Cut us some slack, we're all spending _all_ our time on shit keyboards.
- lugg 7y ago
  Speak for yourself..
- gerbilly 7y ago
  Speak for yourself. (Typed on an IBM Model-M keyboard)
  - ben-schaaf 7y ago
    Not quite on that level (Cherry mx), but I have to concur. If you're not always on the go a proper keyboard is worth the investment.
    - rhinoceraptor 7y ago
      Especially because working with just a laptop is horrible ergonomically.
    - atomwaffel 7y ago
      Yup, it baffles me how many people who earn their money writing code seem to either be content with crappy laptop keyboards or shy away from investing a few hours’ salary in a decent keyboard that they’ll be using for tens of thousands of hours.
    - tannhaeuser 7y ago
      The Cherry G80 with blue switches (I believe) I shortly used at a startup gig last year actually was at Model M level, sans the typing noise/headache. Saying this as someone who actually used Model M keyboards in 1991-3 on PS/2 50 and 80 PCs.
- kabdib 7y ago
  I used an Apple "ergo" keyboard in the early 90s. Had several of them, they all failed with dead keys and unintended multiple keystrokes within six months. The more things change . . . The Microsoft Ergo Keyboard, the first one released in 1995 or so, was well nigh perfect (well, once you remapped capslock to something useful, which you could do in software, or in hardware with a little gumption and some conductive paint). Probably saved my career. Then the quality of Microsoft keyboards went to hell as they cost-reduced their way to mediocrity. The more things change . . . I use a Kinesis Gaming Keyboard now, and I think it's one of the best ergo keyboards on the market. It's programmable to a reasonable degree, has decent key feel, and I've been pounding on a couple of them pretty hard since they were released 2+ years ago without experiencing any issues. I think Kinesis has a clue, but that doesn't mean they won't change . . . The Keyboardio keyboard has an interesting design and great build quality, but I'm too damned old to retrain, and it requires significant effort to reach a decent typing rate. I'm not up to it. I'd be very interested in buying a more traditional split keyboard from the Keyboardio team if they ever decide to build one. There are probably 10 people at my smallish company who would buy them, too. Kaia and Jesse, if you're reading this, take my money :-) The Ultimate Hacking Keyboard is just not quite there. The build quality is excellent and the team put an incredible amount of work into the thing, but the lack of an ESC key just kills me. "Hacking" keyboard . . . but no escape key. I just don't understand. Yes, you can remap keys, but you're going to lose something important to a shift sequence that your fingers are going to stumble on for weeks. (Yes control-[ is ESC but this is not the 1970s and I'm not typing on an ADM3A terminal any more). One thing I'd love to see is an ergo keyboard that includes pressure and velocity information along with keystrokes. I'd like a warning from the system that I'm typing too hard, for one thing, and I'm sure the information would be useful for other purposes.
- zhte415 7y ago
  Still using a 2011 ThinkPad precisely because of the keyboard.
  - F-0X 7y ago
    Me too. The laptop is an inch thick, and _I love it_. We need a revival of bauhaus design - no distinction between form and function. If it falls short at its function, it fails as a form, and should not be accepted.
- wlll 7y ago
  I am using an Apple wireless keyboard (~2014? model, before they changed to thin keys) and I love it. I've used a load of keyboards in my time including some very good mechanical ones, and it's my favourite. "Shit" is in a lot of ways subjective.
- jplayer01 7y ago
  Dunno. The keyboard on my T420 still works 9 years later. None of my desktop keyboards have broken in 5+ years of use, and they were incredibly cheap (10-20€). Keyboards are a solved problem. Apple just keeps inventing new ones.
asdff 7y ago
>I really wish this was the top comment. It is now at least
shredprez 7y ago
Also, just to throw another opinion into this dumpster fire: I had to get a new laptop, knew I was getting a 2019 MBP, and was terrified the keyboard experience would be horrendous due to the coverage I see on the topic here. And it isn't at all. It feels different than my 2015 model, but... definitely not worse. I may even be just slightly better because it's noticeably quieter. Just one perspective, but yeah. The keyboard rage on here should not be taken as anything approaching absolute truth.
- yodsanklai 7y ago
  I agree, the keyboard is fine, until it stops working properly. Apparently, the problems described in the article are not rare occurrences. That, and also the keys which start to fade out (see some other comments). I have both problems on my 2018 MBP. I think the keyboard rage comes from the fact that they changed a perfectly fine keyboard with a bogus one, just to have a slightly slimmer laptop (along with many other gimmicks such as the touchbar, or the oversized trackpad).
  - unicornfinder 7y ago
    Indeed. I switched to a 2017 MBP and thought the keyboard was honestly fine, until after a while the keys gradually started chattering and eventually just outright not working.
- Aeolun 7y ago
  I don’t think I agree that it’s better than the old keyboard, and it certainly feels a bit icky to type on, but... There are much worse keyboards.
- jtc331 7y ago
  Quieter? You must have softest typing finger touch imaginable. Every person I see use it is dramatically louder than the old style.
- mortenjorck 7y ago
  When it works, it’s fine. I’ve had a 2018 MBP for a year and apparently didn’t draw the short stick. The travel distance ceased to be a problem after the first week, and I don’t think about the keyboard day to day. That said, even in my ideal, happy-path case, there’s one minor flaw I do occasionally run up against, which I rarely see mentioned: the keys are too close together. It’s easier – not greatly so, but perceptibly – to hit adjacent keys. There’s no question in my mind that going back to the old keyboard will be an improvement across the board, even for those who haven’t had any of the marquee issues.
t34543 7y ago
I personally have reduced my participation due to said echo chamber. If you want to have comments voted there is a pretty easy formula to follow.

akkartik 7y ago

Cut us some slack, we're all spending _all_ our time on shit keyboards.

lugg 7y ago
Speak for yourself..
gerbilly 7y ago
Speak for yourself. (Typed on an IBM Model-M keyboard)
- ben-schaaf 7y ago
  Not quite on that level (Cherry mx), but I have to concur. If you're not always on the go a proper keyboard is worth the investment.
  - rhinoceraptor 7y ago
    Especially because working with just a laptop is horrible ergonomically.
  - atomwaffel 7y ago
    Yup, it baffles me how many people who earn their money writing code seem to either be content with crappy laptop keyboards or shy away from investing a few hours’ salary in a decent keyboard that they’ll be using for tens of thousands of hours.
  - tannhaeuser 7y ago
    The Cherry G80 with blue switches (I believe) I shortly used at a startup gig last year actually was at Model M level, sans the typing noise/headache. Saying this as someone who actually used Model M keyboards in 1991-3 on PS/2 50 and 80 PCs.
kabdib 7y ago
I used an Apple "ergo" keyboard in the early 90s. Had several of them, they all failed with dead keys and unintended multiple keystrokes within six months. The more things change . . . The Microsoft Ergo Keyboard, the first one released in 1995 or so, was well nigh perfect (well, once you remapped capslock to something useful, which you could do in software, or in hardware with a little gumption and some conductive paint). Probably saved my career. Then the quality of Microsoft keyboards went to hell as they cost-reduced their way to mediocrity. The more things change . . . I use a Kinesis Gaming Keyboard now, and I think it's one of the best ergo keyboards on the market. It's programmable to a reasonable degree, has decent key feel, and I've been pounding on a couple of them pretty hard since they were released 2+ years ago without experiencing any issues. I think Kinesis has a clue, but that doesn't mean they won't change . . . The Keyboardio keyboard has an interesting design and great build quality, but I'm too damned old to retrain, and it requires significant effort to reach a decent typing rate. I'm not up to it. I'd be very interested in buying a more traditional split keyboard from the Keyboardio team if they ever decide to build one. There are probably 10 people at my smallish company who would buy them, too. Kaia and Jesse, if you're reading this, take my money :-) The Ultimate Hacking Keyboard is just not quite there. The build quality is excellent and the team put an incredible amount of work into the thing, but the lack of an ESC key just kills me. "Hacking" keyboard . . . but no escape key. I just don't understand. Yes, you can remap keys, but you're going to lose something important to a shift sequence that your fingers are going to stumble on for weeks. (Yes control-[ is ESC but this is not the 1970s and I'm not typing on an ADM3A terminal any more). One thing I'd love to see is an ergo keyboard that includes pressure and velocity information along with keystrokes. I'd like a warning from the system that I'm typing too hard, for one thing, and I'm sure the information would be useful for other purposes.
zhte415 7y ago
Still using a 2011 ThinkPad precisely because of the keyboard.
- F-0X 7y ago
  Me too. The laptop is an inch thick, and _I love it_. We need a revival of bauhaus design - no distinction between form and function. If it falls short at its function, it fails as a form, and should not be accepted.
wlll 7y ago
I am using an Apple wireless keyboard (~2014? model, before they changed to thin keys) and I love it. I've used a load of keyboards in my time including some very good mechanical ones, and it's my favourite. "Shit" is in a lot of ways subjective.
jplayer01 7y ago
Dunno. The keyboard on my T420 still works 9 years later. None of my desktop keyboards have broken in 5+ years of use, and they were incredibly cheap (10-20€). Keyboards are a solved problem. Apple just keeps inventing new ones.

asdff 7y ago

>I really wish this was the top comment. It is now at least

shredprez 7y ago

Also, just to throw another opinion into this dumpster fire: I had to get a new laptop, knew I was getting a 2019 MBP, and was terrified the keyboard experience would be horrendous due to the coverage I see on the topic here. And it isn't at all. It feels different than my 2015 model, but... definitely not worse. I may even be just slightly better because it's noticeably quieter. Just one perspective, but yeah. The keyboard rage on here should not be taken as anything approaching absolute truth.

yodsanklai 7y ago
I agree, the keyboard is fine, until it stops working properly. Apparently, the problems described in the article are not rare occurrences. That, and also the keys which start to fade out (see some other comments). I have both problems on my 2018 MBP. I think the keyboard rage comes from the fact that they changed a perfectly fine keyboard with a bogus one, just to have a slightly slimmer laptop (along with many other gimmicks such as the touchbar, or the oversized trackpad).
- unicornfinder 7y ago
  Indeed. I switched to a 2017 MBP and thought the keyboard was honestly fine, until after a while the keys gradually started chattering and eventually just outright not working.
Aeolun 7y ago
I don’t think I agree that it’s better than the old keyboard, and it certainly feels a bit icky to type on, but... There are much worse keyboards.
jtc331 7y ago
Quieter? You must have softest typing finger touch imaginable. Every person I see use it is dramatically louder than the old style.
mortenjorck 7y ago
When it works, it’s fine. I’ve had a 2018 MBP for a year and apparently didn’t draw the short stick. The travel distance ceased to be a problem after the first week, and I don’t think about the keyboard day to day. That said, even in my ideal, happy-path case, there’s one minor flaw I do occasionally run up against, which I rarely see mentioned: the keys are too close together. It’s easier – not greatly so, but perceptibly – to hit adjacent keys. There’s no question in my mind that going back to the old keyboard will be an improvement across the board, even for those who haven’t had any of the marquee issues.

t34543 7y ago

I personally have reduced my participation due to said echo chamber. If you want to have comments voted there is a pretty easy formula to follow.