9 ms·

For everyone that hasn't seen it, reports are they've already decided to change the keyboard on forthcoming models. Discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.

For everyone that hasn't seen it, reports are they've already decided to change the keyboard on forthcoming models. Discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20353148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20353148 Edit: added "reports are"

timfrietas 7y ago
I really wish this was the top comment. I feel like HN is turning a little too much into an echo chamber dunk fest sometimes.
- akkartik 7y ago
  Cut us some slack, we're all spending _all_ our time on shit keyboards.
  - lugg 7y ago
    Speak for yourself..
  - gerbilly 7y ago
    Speak for yourself. (Typed on an IBM Model-M keyboard)
    - ben-schaaf 7y ago
      Not quite on that level (Cherry mx), but I have to concur. If you're not always on the go a proper keyboard is worth the investment.
      - rhinoceraptor 7y ago
        Especially because working with just a laptop is horrible ergonomically.
      - atomwaffel 7y ago
        Yup, it baffles me how many people who earn their money writing code seem to either be content with crappy laptop keyboards or shy away from investing a few hours’ salary in a decent keyboard that they’ll be using for tens of thousands of hours.
      - tannhaeuser 7y ago
        The Cherry G80 with blue switches (I believe) I shortly used at a startup gig last year actually was at Model M level, sans the typing noise/headache. Saying this as someone who actually used Model M keyboards in 1991-3 on PS/2 50 and 80 PCs.
  - kabdib 7y ago
    I used an Apple "ergo" keyboard in the early 90s. Had several of them, they all failed with dead keys and unintended multiple keystrokes within six months. The more things change . . . The Microsoft Ergo Keyboard, the first one released in 1995 or so, was well nigh perfect (well, once you remapped capslock to something useful, which you could do in software, or in hardware with a little gumption and some conductive paint). Probably saved my career. Then the quality of Microsoft keyboards went to hell as they cost-reduced their way to mediocrity. The more things change . . . I use a Kinesis Gaming Keyboard now, and I think it's one of the best ergo keyboards on the market. It's programmable to a reasonable degree, has decent key feel, and I've been pounding on a couple of them pretty hard since they were released 2+ years ago without experiencing any issues. I think Kinesis has a clue, but that doesn't mean they won't change . . . The Keyboardio keyboard has an interesting design and great build quality, but I'm too damned old to retrain, and it requires significant effort to reach a decent typing rate. I'm not up to it. I'd be very interested in buying a more traditional split keyboard from the Keyboardio team if they ever decide to build one. There are probably 10 people at my smallish company who would buy them, too. Kaia and Jesse, if you're reading this, take my money :-) The Ultimate Hacking Keyboard is just not quite there. The build quality is excellent and the team put an incredible amount of work into the thing, but the lack of an ESC key just kills me. "Hacking" keyboard . . . but no escape key. I just don't understand. Yes, you can remap keys, but you're going to lose something important to a shift sequence that your fingers are going to stumble on for weeks. (Yes control-[ is ESC but this is not the 1970s and I'm not typing on an ADM3A terminal any more). One thing I'd love to see is an ergo keyboard that includes pressure and velocity information along with keystrokes. I'd like a warning from the system that I'm typing too hard, for one thing, and I'm sure the information would be useful for other purposes.
  - zhte415 7y ago
    Still using a 2011 ThinkPad precisely because of the keyboard.
    - F-0X 7y ago
      Me too. The laptop is an inch thick, and _I love it_. We need a revival of bauhaus design - no distinction between form and function. If it falls short at its function, it fails as a form, and should not be accepted.
  - wlll 7y ago
    I am using an Apple wireless keyboard (~2014? model, before they changed to thin keys) and I love it. I've used a load of keyboards in my time including some very good mechanical ones, and it's my favourite. "Shit" is in a lot of ways subjective.
  - jplayer01 7y ago
    Dunno. The keyboard on my T420 still works 9 years later. None of my desktop keyboards have broken in 5+ years of use, and they were incredibly cheap (10-20€). Keyboards are a solved problem. Apple just keeps inventing new ones.
- asdff 7y ago
  >I really wish this was the top comment. It is now at least
- shredprez 7y ago
  Also, just to throw another opinion into this dumpster fire: I had to get a new laptop, knew I was getting a 2019 MBP, and was terrified the keyboard experience would be horrendous due to the coverage I see on the topic here. And it isn't at all. It feels different than my 2015 model, but... definitely not worse. I may even be just slightly better because it's noticeably quieter. Just one perspective, but yeah. The keyboard rage on here should not be taken as anything approaching absolute truth.
  - yodsanklai 7y ago
    I agree, the keyboard is fine, until it stops working properly. Apparently, the problems described in the article are not rare occurrences. That, and also the keys which start to fade out (see some other comments). I have both problems on my 2018 MBP. I think the keyboard rage comes from the fact that they changed a perfectly fine keyboard with a bogus one, just to have a slightly slimmer laptop (along with many other gimmicks such as the touchbar, or the oversized trackpad).
    - unicornfinder 7y ago
      Indeed. I switched to a 2017 MBP and thought the keyboard was honestly fine, until after a while the keys gradually started chattering and eventually just outright not working.
  - Aeolun 7y ago
    I don’t think I agree that it’s better than the old keyboard, and it certainly feels a bit icky to type on, but... There are much worse keyboards.
  - jtc331 7y ago
    Quieter? You must have softest typing finger touch imaginable. Every person I see use it is dramatically louder than the old style.
  - mortenjorck 7y ago
    When it works, it’s fine. I’ve had a 2018 MBP for a year and apparently didn’t draw the short stick. The travel distance ceased to be a problem after the first week, and I don’t think about the keyboard day to day. That said, even in my ideal, happy-path case, there’s one minor flaw I do occasionally run up against, which I rarely see mentioned: the keys are too close together. It’s easier – not greatly so, but perceptibly – to hit adjacent keys. There’s no question in my mind that going back to the old keyboard will be an improvement across the board, even for those who haven’t had any of the marquee issues.
- t34543 7y ago
  I personally have reduced my participation due to said echo chamber. If you want to have comments voted there is a pretty easy formula to follow.
abtinf 7y ago
Is that anything more than a rumor yet?
- phinnaeus 7y ago
  This is Apple, there's nothing more than rumors until the announcement.
- hannibalhorn 7y ago
  Good point - but with Apple, you're never going to have any concrete information until the day a product is officially released. Rumors are as good as we can get, and 9to5mac is pretty reputable, as far as those sites go.
- asdff 7y ago
  According to macrumors the source of this rumor has been reliable.
tolmasky 7y ago
Great, will they be offering free trade-ins? These are $2000 computers that have a major broken component. Not to mention, the second a computer comes on sale that doesn't have this issue, the resale value of the current MacBooks will be disproportionately affected compared to previous revisions. So a nice double whammy: a miserable experience during its use, and an unusually small resale value afterwards.
- Wingman4l7 7y ago
  This is a company that renders many of its perfectly working phones and tablets virtually worthless via centralized cloud account locking that is easily forgotten and left on. I doubt they care about resale value.
  - rangibaby 7y ago
    That’s a great anti-theft feature actually
  - briandear 7y ago
    “Virtually worthless [to thieves but not the rightful owner.]”
  - robohoe 7y ago
    Doesn’t Google do the same?
    - wingworks 7y ago
      yes they do
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - bdcravens 7y ago
    When you reset an iPhone or iPad it always prompts you for the iCloud password to remove the lock. eBay also gives you the same reminder. The only way you're selling iCloud locked devices is if you're usually too lazy to reset or it's a stolen device. (Though other situations happen - I recently sold some iPhones for my wife's family, which belonged to someone who died of Alzheimers)
caioariede 7y ago
To me the, the worst thing with MacBook keyboards is when keys start to fade out[1]. I really hope they could do something about it [0] https://caio.ariede.life/macbook-blurred-keys/ https://caio.ariede.life/macbook-blurred-keys/
- ihuman 7y ago
  Isn't that an issue on all keyboards without doubleshot keycaps?
  - stevenjohns 7y ago
    These problems don't exist on doubleshot keycaps, precisely because of the doubleshot injection. In this case these aren't double shot, they are single shot that is painted/dyed and then has the lettering laser-etched out of the paint/dye.
    - ihuman 7y ago
      Oops, I meant to say non-double shot
- torstenvl 7y ago
  God, I hate this. 2018 MacBook Pro, had it less than a year, already getting patches like that on some keys.
- mises 7y ago
  I can't believe they aren't double-shot. Or just color the whole thing, like Nintendo did with its switch buttons. Lettering and all, so it never rubs off. That would be the kind of quality I'd expect to see for the price of an apple lap top computer.
- chadcmulligan 7y ago
  My command Key had this after a couple of years on my MBP took it in to the apple store while I was getting my phone fixed, they just stuck in a new key. I believe they have a key board replacement program if your keys are sticking - something I'll probably avail myself of, I have a few keys that don't work sometimes.
Raticide 7y ago
But they're still keeping the annoying touchbar. I suppose I'm stuck with Dell laptops now.
- slowmovintarget 7y ago
  The Touchbar and the kernel panics in BridgeOS that go with it. That's the hardest thing to swallow. Mine does this when I use video conferencing. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/2018-macbook-pros-crashing-with-bridge-os-error.2128976/page-145 https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/2018-macbook-pros-crash...
  - thelittleone 7y ago
    I found the touch bar a hindrance on my 2017 MBP. Then I read a HN comment [1] recommending Better Touch Tool [2] with GoldenChaos config [3]. I've found it quite useful since. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20229123 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20229123 [2] https://folivora.ai/ https://folivora.ai/ [3] https://goldenchaos.net/goldenchaos-btt.html https://goldenchaos.net/goldenchaos-btt.html
    - slowmovintarget 7y ago
      Do these fix the kernel panic "BAD MAGIC" error that causes the machine to crash and restart? These are kernel panics caused by the BridgeOS, a mini-operating system that drives the TouchBar. My problem isn't with the usability or usefulness of the TouchBar. My problem is that the mere presence of the TouchBar has created a point of failure that crashes the machine... when I'm not even using that feature!
      - thelittleone 7y ago
        No it does not my mistake, I replied to the wrong parent comment.
- djpowell 7y ago
  At least with Dell's on-site service, I have had two keyboards fixed for me at my desk in about about 5 minutes.
torgian 7y ago
that's good to hear. I've been wanting to upgrade from my 2013 model, but the keyboards are so shit that I decided to wait. Might still not buy one if they still have a Touch Bar though (and omg, touch bar was automatically made uppercase...) Apple, I love you, but I hate you too.
- chipotle_coyote 7y ago
  What about if they have a touch bar but also have a hardware escape key? That's really the only thing about the touch bar Mac keyboard layout that I hate. (I don't actually mind the feel of the butterfly keys -- I'm typing on them now -- but I don't love them, either. Although if they kept this key feel, maybe just doubled the travel, and brought the reliability back in line with the older scissor switches, I'd be totally on board.)
  - philwelch 7y ago
    Remap caps lock.
    - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
      I've gone back to remapping caps lock as a control key recently, so the two hacks conflict. :) (I know there are ways to remap the caps lock key to be both, depending on whether you tap it or hold it down with another key.)
      - philwelch 7y ago
        Remap control to escape!
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - SiVal 7y ago
      I wish I could remap my MBP arrowkeys to grow up and be full-sized keys...

timfrietas 7y ago

I really wish this was the top comment. I feel like HN is turning a little too much into an echo chamber dunk fest sometimes.

akkartik 7y ago
Cut us some slack, we're all spending _all_ our time on shit keyboards.
- lugg 7y ago
  Speak for yourself..
- gerbilly 7y ago
  Speak for yourself. (Typed on an IBM Model-M keyboard)
  - ben-schaaf 7y ago
    Not quite on that level (Cherry mx), but I have to concur. If you're not always on the go a proper keyboard is worth the investment.
    - rhinoceraptor 7y ago
      Especially because working with just a laptop is horrible ergonomically.
    - atomwaffel 7y ago
      Yup, it baffles me how many people who earn their money writing code seem to either be content with crappy laptop keyboards or shy away from investing a few hours’ salary in a decent keyboard that they’ll be using for tens of thousands of hours.
    - tannhaeuser 7y ago
      The Cherry G80 with blue switches (I believe) I shortly used at a startup gig last year actually was at Model M level, sans the typing noise/headache. Saying this as someone who actually used Model M keyboards in 1991-3 on PS/2 50 and 80 PCs.
- kabdib 7y ago
  I used an Apple "ergo" keyboard in the early 90s. Had several of them, they all failed with dead keys and unintended multiple keystrokes within six months. The more things change . . . The Microsoft Ergo Keyboard, the first one released in 1995 or so, was well nigh perfect (well, once you remapped capslock to something useful, which you could do in software, or in hardware with a little gumption and some conductive paint). Probably saved my career. Then the quality of Microsoft keyboards went to hell as they cost-reduced their way to mediocrity. The more things change . . . I use a Kinesis Gaming Keyboard now, and I think it's one of the best ergo keyboards on the market. It's programmable to a reasonable degree, has decent key feel, and I've been pounding on a couple of them pretty hard since they were released 2+ years ago without experiencing any issues. I think Kinesis has a clue, but that doesn't mean they won't change . . . The Keyboardio keyboard has an interesting design and great build quality, but I'm too damned old to retrain, and it requires significant effort to reach a decent typing rate. I'm not up to it. I'd be very interested in buying a more traditional split keyboard from the Keyboardio team if they ever decide to build one. There are probably 10 people at my smallish company who would buy them, too. Kaia and Jesse, if you're reading this, take my money :-) The Ultimate Hacking Keyboard is just not quite there. The build quality is excellent and the team put an incredible amount of work into the thing, but the lack of an ESC key just kills me. "Hacking" keyboard . . . but no escape key. I just don't understand. Yes, you can remap keys, but you're going to lose something important to a shift sequence that your fingers are going to stumble on for weeks. (Yes control-[ is ESC but this is not the 1970s and I'm not typing on an ADM3A terminal any more). One thing I'd love to see is an ergo keyboard that includes pressure and velocity information along with keystrokes. I'd like a warning from the system that I'm typing too hard, for one thing, and I'm sure the information would be useful for other purposes.
- zhte415 7y ago
  Still using a 2011 ThinkPad precisely because of the keyboard.
  - F-0X 7y ago
    Me too. The laptop is an inch thick, and _I love it_. We need a revival of bauhaus design - no distinction between form and function. If it falls short at its function, it fails as a form, and should not be accepted.
- wlll 7y ago
  I am using an Apple wireless keyboard (~2014? model, before they changed to thin keys) and I love it. I've used a load of keyboards in my time including some very good mechanical ones, and it's my favourite. "Shit" is in a lot of ways subjective.
- jplayer01 7y ago
  Dunno. The keyboard on my T420 still works 9 years later. None of my desktop keyboards have broken in 5+ years of use, and they were incredibly cheap (10-20€). Keyboards are a solved problem. Apple just keeps inventing new ones.
asdff 7y ago
>I really wish this was the top comment. It is now at least
shredprez 7y ago
Also, just to throw another opinion into this dumpster fire: I had to get a new laptop, knew I was getting a 2019 MBP, and was terrified the keyboard experience would be horrendous due to the coverage I see on the topic here. And it isn't at all. It feels different than my 2015 model, but... definitely not worse. I may even be just slightly better because it's noticeably quieter. Just one perspective, but yeah. The keyboard rage on here should not be taken as anything approaching absolute truth.
- yodsanklai 7y ago
  I agree, the keyboard is fine, until it stops working properly. Apparently, the problems described in the article are not rare occurrences. That, and also the keys which start to fade out (see some other comments). I have both problems on my 2018 MBP. I think the keyboard rage comes from the fact that they changed a perfectly fine keyboard with a bogus one, just to have a slightly slimmer laptop (along with many other gimmicks such as the touchbar, or the oversized trackpad).
  - unicornfinder 7y ago
    Indeed. I switched to a 2017 MBP and thought the keyboard was honestly fine, until after a while the keys gradually started chattering and eventually just outright not working.
- Aeolun 7y ago
  I don’t think I agree that it’s better than the old keyboard, and it certainly feels a bit icky to type on, but... There are much worse keyboards.
- jtc331 7y ago
  Quieter? You must have softest typing finger touch imaginable. Every person I see use it is dramatically louder than the old style.
- mortenjorck 7y ago
  When it works, it’s fine. I’ve had a 2018 MBP for a year and apparently didn’t draw the short stick. The travel distance ceased to be a problem after the first week, and I don’t think about the keyboard day to day. That said, even in my ideal, happy-path case, there’s one minor flaw I do occasionally run up against, which I rarely see mentioned: the keys are too close together. It’s easier – not greatly so, but perceptibly – to hit adjacent keys. There’s no question in my mind that going back to the old keyboard will be an improvement across the board, even for those who haven’t had any of the marquee issues.
t34543 7y ago
I personally have reduced my participation due to said echo chamber. If you want to have comments voted there is a pretty easy formula to follow.

abtinf 7y ago

Is that anything more than a rumor yet?

phinnaeus 7y ago
This is Apple, there's nothing more than rumors until the announcement.
hannibalhorn 7y ago
Good point - but with Apple, you're never going to have any concrete information until the day a product is officially released. Rumors are as good as we can get, and 9to5mac is pretty reputable, as far as those sites go.
asdff 7y ago
According to macrumors the source of this rumor has been reliable.

tolmasky 7y ago

Great, will they be offering free trade-ins? These are $2000 computers that have a major broken component. Not to mention, the second a computer comes on sale that doesn't have this issue, the resale value of the current MacBooks will be disproportionately affected compared to previous revisions. So a nice double whammy: a miserable experience during its use, and an unusually small resale value afterwards.

Wingman4l7 7y ago
This is a company that renders many of its perfectly working phones and tablets virtually worthless via centralized cloud account locking that is easily forgotten and left on. I doubt they care about resale value.
- rangibaby 7y ago
  That’s a great anti-theft feature actually
- briandear 7y ago
  “Virtually worthless [to thieves but not the rightful owner.]”
- robohoe 7y ago
  Doesn’t Google do the same?
  - wingworks 7y ago
    yes they do
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- bdcravens 7y ago
  When you reset an iPhone or iPad it always prompts you for the iCloud password to remove the lock. eBay also gives you the same reminder. The only way you're selling iCloud locked devices is if you're usually too lazy to reset or it's a stolen device. (Though other situations happen - I recently sold some iPhones for my wife's family, which belonged to someone who died of Alzheimers)

caioariede 7y ago

To me the, the worst thing with MacBook keyboards is when keys start to fade out[1]. I really hope they could do something about it [0] https://caio.ariede.life/macbook-blurred-keys/ https://caio.ariede.life/macbook-blurred-keys/

ihuman 7y ago
Isn't that an issue on all keyboards without doubleshot keycaps?
- stevenjohns 7y ago
  These problems don't exist on doubleshot keycaps, precisely because of the doubleshot injection. In this case these aren't double shot, they are single shot that is painted/dyed and then has the lettering laser-etched out of the paint/dye.
  - ihuman 7y ago
    Oops, I meant to say non-double shot
torstenvl 7y ago
God, I hate this. 2018 MacBook Pro, had it less than a year, already getting patches like that on some keys.
mises 7y ago
I can't believe they aren't double-shot. Or just color the whole thing, like Nintendo did with its switch buttons. Lettering and all, so it never rubs off. That would be the kind of quality I'd expect to see for the price of an apple lap top computer.
chadcmulligan 7y ago
My command Key had this after a couple of years on my MBP took it in to the apple store while I was getting my phone fixed, they just stuck in a new key. I believe they have a key board replacement program if your keys are sticking - something I'll probably avail myself of, I have a few keys that don't work sometimes.

Raticide 7y ago

But they're still keeping the annoying touchbar. I suppose I'm stuck with Dell laptops now.

slowmovintarget 7y ago
The Touchbar and the kernel panics in BridgeOS that go with it. That's the hardest thing to swallow. Mine does this when I use video conferencing. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/2018-macbook-pros-crashing-with-bridge-os-error.2128976/page-145 https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/2018-macbook-pros-crash...
- thelittleone 7y ago
  I found the touch bar a hindrance on my 2017 MBP. Then I read a HN comment [1] recommending Better Touch Tool [2] with GoldenChaos config [3]. I've found it quite useful since. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20229123 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20229123 [2] https://folivora.ai/ https://folivora.ai/ [3] https://goldenchaos.net/goldenchaos-btt.html https://goldenchaos.net/goldenchaos-btt.html
  - slowmovintarget 7y ago
    Do these fix the kernel panic "BAD MAGIC" error that causes the machine to crash and restart? These are kernel panics caused by the BridgeOS, a mini-operating system that drives the TouchBar. My problem isn't with the usability or usefulness of the TouchBar. My problem is that the mere presence of the TouchBar has created a point of failure that crashes the machine... when I'm not even using that feature!
    - thelittleone 7y ago
      No it does not my mistake, I replied to the wrong parent comment.
djpowell 7y ago
At least with Dell's on-site service, I have had two keyboards fixed for me at my desk in about about 5 minutes.

torgian 7y ago

that's good to hear. I've been wanting to upgrade from my 2013 model, but the keyboards are so shit that I decided to wait. Might still not buy one if they still have a Touch Bar though (and omg, touch bar was automatically made uppercase...) Apple, I love you, but I hate you too.

chipotle_coyote 7y ago
What about if they have a touch bar but also have a hardware escape key? That's really the only thing about the touch bar Mac keyboard layout that I hate. (I don't actually mind the feel of the butterfly keys -- I'm typing on them now -- but I don't love them, either. Although if they kept this key feel, maybe just doubled the travel, and brought the reliability back in line with the older scissor switches, I'd be totally on board.)
- philwelch 7y ago
  Remap caps lock.
  - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
    I've gone back to remapping caps lock as a control key recently, so the two hacks conflict. :) (I know there are ways to remap the caps lock key to be both, depending on whether you tap it or hold it down with another key.)
    - philwelch 7y ago
      Remap control to escape!
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - SiVal 7y ago
    I wish I could remap my MBP arrowkeys to grow up and be full-sized keys...