4 ms·

>But I can write well. I make good settings and stories, my spelling and grammar are ok, I make addicting game systems, and my systems and stories blend really

>But I can write well. I make good settings and stories, my spelling and grammar are ok, I make addicting game systems, and my systems and stories blend really well. THAT is the product I sell. If that's true and he's good at those things, then why doesn't the product sell well enough to hire people to make the next game not look like a game design student's homework assignment?

gameswithgo 7y ago
his game studio has made a very good living for decades. he has outperformed 99% of the industry AND still gets to actually make games instead of run a company and herd cats. he is the guy who actually has it figured out by many measures.
scarejunba 7y ago
Maybe he's saying that adding good art won't make his games sell better. In that case it would just be cost without gain.
- chii 7y ago
  That's probably true. Good art style/aesthetics is a foot in the door for a lot of gamers, unfortunately. A game needs to stand on a foundation of good game mechanics (and possibly good writing), but the mainstream players' choice to try your game is gated by the production value and direction/style of the art.
- effarig 7y ago
  I personally have not bought Vogel's games based solely on their amateur visual appearance, and given the fact that he's never put out a "good-looking" game, how does he even know how it would affect sales?
  - sangnoir 7y ago
    > how does he even know how it would affect sales? He doesn't know - but he feels he does not need to take the risk to find out because the stakes are too high for him (since he'll need to borrow from a bank or his retirement savings). I'm sure those who feel strongly about the potential on HN, reddit and elsewhere could band together and crowdfund/formally pitch Jeff on an investment in an artist for a subsequent game and capture the upside while shouldering the risk - he probably would be happy to take the money; he's not ready to put up his.
    - zapzupnz 7y ago
      > He doesn't know - but he feels he does not need to take the risk to find out because the stakes are too high for him (since he'll need to borrow from a bank or his retirement savings). Then that should have been the main crux of his argument, without the need to start making up questionable numbers and making comparisons with other titles; particularly when it's an open letter on a subject nobody really seemed to care about prior to the previous article. It seems his audience, his customerbase, is so extraordinarily specific that the letter would really have been better addressed to his fans and nobody else; instead, the two posts come off as unsolicited whining which I believe is what is rubbing people the wrong way.
      - sgift 7y ago
        > instead, the two posts come off as unsolicited whining which I believe is what is rubbing people the wrong way. They are sound business advice from someone who knows what he talks about (because he has had a successful business for a long time). Far better than the usual "hey, I'm a unicorn startup and obviously I will change the world" which will then implode a few weeks or month later, when their "revolutionary" idea and/or business opportunity turns out to be useless.
        zapzupnz 7y ago
        He's had a small successful business for a long time, though, with an extremely limited audience and no intent to widen it with a view to potentially much better profits. I'm not sure I'd call it "sound business advice" unless one's business intent is to barely float above water.
        CathedralBorrow 7y ago
        You speak as if you know his business a lot better than a couple of blog posts can convey. What's the basis for your business advice?
        7y ago
  - vidarh 7y ago
    He doesn't know, but he's tried and spent money on trying to lift the quality in the past and failed. Someone else might make it work better. If he'd be able to afford spending even more, it might work better. But he's made it clear he's not willing to take the economic risk inherent in that, and that's a valid choice.
- crooked-v 7y ago
  Vogel is conflating 'good art' and 'good aesthetics', though. Many games 'look good' with 'bad' art because they spend the effort to cultivate a certain aesthetic.
Pfhreak 7y ago
You are going to need artist(s) to do tilesets, objects in the world, character portraits, enemies/player models in multiple rotations, UI art, and various splash screens/loading screens/game state transitions. Conservatively, I'd be surprised if you could put that all together for less than $50,000 if you were paying a contractor to deliver them for you. The average steam game sells about 30,000 copies. That's the average, including the super big hits from AAA devs. I don't have the data for indie games, but I'd guess it's probably closer 3,000 copies. So, amortized, you are looking at raising your prices by $2 per copy. Except remember that your platform is gonna take 30%, so you need to raise your prices by $3/copy. Some of those 3,000 copies sold are going to come from discounted sales, which means if you want to break even on art, you need to push the full price up a bit more so you don't lose too much on sale prices. $4 is a lot of money to ask, relative to the price of the game. It's at least a 10% increase in cost, probably considerably more.

gameswithgo 7y ago

his game studio has made a very good living for decades. he has outperformed 99% of the industry AND still gets to actually make games instead of run a company and herd cats. he is the guy who actually has it figured out by many measures.

scarejunba 7y ago

Maybe he's saying that adding good art won't make his games sell better. In that case it would just be cost without gain.

chii 7y ago
That's probably true. Good art style/aesthetics is a foot in the door for a lot of gamers, unfortunately. A game needs to stand on a foundation of good game mechanics (and possibly good writing), but the mainstream players' choice to try your game is gated by the production value and direction/style of the art.
effarig 7y ago
I personally have not bought Vogel's games based solely on their amateur visual appearance, and given the fact that he's never put out a "good-looking" game, how does he even know how it would affect sales?
- sangnoir 7y ago
  > how does he even know how it would affect sales? He doesn't know - but he feels he does not need to take the risk to find out because the stakes are too high for him (since he'll need to borrow from a bank or his retirement savings). I'm sure those who feel strongly about the potential on HN, reddit and elsewhere could band together and crowdfund/formally pitch Jeff on an investment in an artist for a subsequent game and capture the upside while shouldering the risk - he probably would be happy to take the money; he's not ready to put up his.
  - zapzupnz 7y ago
    > He doesn't know - but he feels he does not need to take the risk to find out because the stakes are too high for him (since he'll need to borrow from a bank or his retirement savings). Then that should have been the main crux of his argument, without the need to start making up questionable numbers and making comparisons with other titles; particularly when it's an open letter on a subject nobody really seemed to care about prior to the previous article. It seems his audience, his customerbase, is so extraordinarily specific that the letter would really have been better addressed to his fans and nobody else; instead, the two posts come off as unsolicited whining which I believe is what is rubbing people the wrong way.
    - sgift 7y ago
      > instead, the two posts come off as unsolicited whining which I believe is what is rubbing people the wrong way. They are sound business advice from someone who knows what he talks about (because he has had a successful business for a long time). Far better than the usual "hey, I'm a unicorn startup and obviously I will change the world" which will then implode a few weeks or month later, when their "revolutionary" idea and/or business opportunity turns out to be useless.
      - zapzupnz 7y ago
        He's had a small successful business for a long time, though, with an extremely limited audience and no intent to widen it with a view to potentially much better profits. I'm not sure I'd call it "sound business advice" unless one's business intent is to barely float above water.
        CathedralBorrow 7y ago
        You speak as if you know his business a lot better than a couple of blog posts can convey. What's the basis for your business advice?
        7y ago
- vidarh 7y ago
  He doesn't know, but he's tried and spent money on trying to lift the quality in the past and failed. Someone else might make it work better. If he'd be able to afford spending even more, it might work better. But he's made it clear he's not willing to take the economic risk inherent in that, and that's a valid choice.
crooked-v 7y ago
Vogel is conflating 'good art' and 'good aesthetics', though. Many games 'look good' with 'bad' art because they spend the effort to cultivate a certain aesthetic.

Pfhreak 7y ago

You are going to need artist(s) to do tilesets, objects in the world, character portraits, enemies/player models in multiple rotations, UI art, and various splash screens/loading screens/game state transitions. Conservatively, I'd be surprised if you could put that all together for less than $50,000 if you were paying a contractor to deliver them for you. The average steam game sells about 30,000 copies. That's the average, including the super big hits from AAA devs. I don't have the data for indie games, but I'd guess it's probably closer 3,000 copies. So, amortized, you are looking at raising your prices by $2 per copy. Except remember that your platform is gonna take 30%, so you need to raise your prices by $3/copy. Some of those 3,000 copies sold are going to come from discounted sales, which means if you want to break even on art, you need to push the full price up a bit more so you don't lose too much on sale prices. $4 is a lot of money to ask, relative to the price of the game. It's at least a 10% increase in cost, probably considerably more.