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I Am the Cheapest Bastard in Indie Games

298 points by grawprog 7y ago

grawprog 7y ago
This is a response to the responses to this article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20765521 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20765521 Posted a few days ago.
- duskwuff 7y ago
  Is it really a response, though? It feels like a repeat of the same article -- down to many of the same filler images.
  - grawprog 7y ago
    Fair point honestly, it seemed worth posting for continuity though.
  - chii 7y ago
    it is a good response, and it does give logical, rational arguments as to why the criticisms given to him are invalid.
- bscphil 7y ago
  Reading it, it seems more of a response to people on Reddit who may have had different criticisms. I didn't see anything in the post suggesting he knew about the HN thread, although I could have missed something.
Causality1 7y ago
>But I can write well. I make good settings and stories, my spelling and grammar are ok, I make addicting game systems, and my systems and stories blend really well. THAT is the product I sell. If that's true and he's good at those things, then why doesn't the product sell well enough to hire people to make the next game not look like a game design student's homework assignment?
- gameswithgo 7y ago
  his game studio has made a very good living for decades. he has outperformed 99% of the industry AND still gets to actually make games instead of run a company and herd cats. he is the guy who actually has it figured out by many measures.
- scarejunba 7y ago
  Maybe he's saying that adding good art won't make his games sell better. In that case it would just be cost without gain.
  - chii 7y ago
    That's probably true. Good art style/aesthetics is a foot in the door for a lot of gamers, unfortunately. A game needs to stand on a foundation of good game mechanics (and possibly good writing), but the mainstream players' choice to try your game is gated by the production value and direction/style of the art.
  - effarig 7y ago
    I personally have not bought Vogel's games based solely on their amateur visual appearance, and given the fact that he's never put out a "good-looking" game, how does he even know how it would affect sales?
    - sangnoir 7y ago
      > how does he even know how it would affect sales? He doesn't know - but he feels he does not need to take the risk to find out because the stakes are too high for him (since he'll need to borrow from a bank or his retirement savings). I'm sure those who feel strongly about the potential on HN, reddit and elsewhere could band together and crowdfund/formally pitch Jeff on an investment in an artist for a subsequent game and capture the upside while shouldering the risk - he probably would be happy to take the money; he's not ready to put up his.
      - zapzupnz 7y ago
deogeo 7y ago
Reposting my comment from the duplicate thread at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20804401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20804401: In the previous thread, someone made a good point - his newer games, with more resources spent on them, look worse than the old ones. Someone else applied pixelization/palletization to the screenshot of his new game, and the degraded quality made it look better: https://i.imgur.com/oPH7paD.jpg https://i.imgur.com/oPH7paD.jpg Of course neither point is addressed, and he keeps pretending that the only way to improve is to expend more resources. As also pointed out in the previous discussion, that's because he simply doesn't have an eye for art. He compares his game to the consistent-and-pleasant-to-look-at Baba Is You, because he can't see the difference, and so he doesn't even see there's a problem to be solved. We might as well try to explain the difference between blue and red to a blind person. That's why he can show a picture of dwarf fortress without realizing it looks better than his game. Going for a Caves of Qud look would also probably save him money - but he simply can't see that it looks better.
- sha666sum 7y ago
  Those other versions don't look better, though.
- hitekker 7y ago
  Hopefully, your perspective dissuades others from alchemizing the author's rationalization.
- catern 7y ago
  Actually I think he engages with your point pretty well. You say: >he simply doesn't have an eye for art and >he keeps pretending that the only way to improve is to expend more resources. But he says: >By the way, for people who asked me why I don't just learn to do better art myself, this is why. To learn to do better art, I'd need to spend at least 6-12 months. (To think it takes less is insulting to artists.) I just don't have the time to not be writing games. It seems correct that for him to develop an eye for art, would require him to expend resources. How is he supposed to develop an eye for art? Listen to all the comments on his posts? I don't think so, random internet comments are rarely a good source of advice. Developing a taste for art that will actually improve his games will take time and study and possibly even trial and error. And applying that taste once it's developed will take even more time. And it seems totally plausible to me that he can't afford to spend those resources. His argument is very specific to his own situation. But it seems likely to be correct about his own situation.
codesushi42 7y ago
Here is what the critics don't get. You are game devs. You are Jeff's peers. You are not representative of his customer base. Did it ever occur to the critics that Jeff's customers may not actually value the quality of artwork in his games all that much? At least not as much as the storytelling. Even more importantly is staying consistent with what fans expect. It is called "branding", geniuses. If Jeff all of a sudden released a game with an artsy fartsy style, he'd be gambling his future. He might end up alienating his existing customer base by not giving them what they've come to expect, and his experiment may not work for acquiring new customers. I am sick of armchair critics. Jeff has been doing this for a long time, and longer than all of these know-it-alls. Your opinions mean nothing. His repeated success does.
- adnzzzzZ 7y ago
  If you go up to a bunch of people doing a craft and you show yourself displaying extremely poor technique and care for the craft itself, those craftsmen will disrespect you, and they will be right. As an indie developer it's kind of tiring to hear all these developers constantly praising mediocrity and showing no will to improve their craftsmanship as long as they're able to make a living. You can also make a living and be extremely skilled and care about constantly improving, it's not an either/or situation.
  - danbolt 7y ago
    I think Jeff is pretty invested in his craft in general, but it’s just that he focuses on making an ideal product with the resources and abilities he has available to him.
  - codesushi42 7y ago
    That is just your opinion. But does it matter? It is rare for any indie developer to be making any kind of "a living" from making games. The fact that Jeff does already makes him exceptional. As a gamer, I could care less about whatever rubbish being claimed about his "technique" and "craftsmanship". His games are entertaining, unique, and better than most indies in my eyes.
Sophistifunk 7y ago
You guys it's OK for some guy to make ugly games, and for other people you don't know to buy them, right? He's happy, his wife is happy, his customers are happy, his rent gets paid. So why is everybody trying to sprout off about how they have the solution to a "problem" he doesn't have?
- Pfhreak 7y ago
  I think because most people dramatically underestimate the complexity of making games and overestimate the sales of games. It's easy to say, "Just hire an artist" without understanding the complexities in finding that artist, negotiating a contract, ensuring they are delivering to your expectations, tracking their progress, ensuring they meet your creative vision, and recouping the money in sales to actually pay them.
  - thomasmeeks 7y ago
    Yep, for all it’s business know-how HN just doesn’t understand this one. He’s making games for people that value story and world building above all else. He’s making a relative pittance doing so — seemingly much less than a full time gig at a faang company. He’s presumably happy, his customers are presumably happy, yet we insist on giving him obvious advice about a 25 year old venture. It’s honestly hilarious to see the immense amount of time collectively wasted armchairing over it!
    - Tehdasi 7y ago
      "Yep, for all it’s business know-how HN just doesn’t understand this one." TBF his argument comes down to 'putting money into the company is too risky', which does go against the method of startups which is to pour huge amounts of into a company and take huge risks. Less poor know-how, more of failure to conceive of other ways of doing business.
      - JamesFM 7y ago
        I don't think there is a hockey stick to chase in game development. At least not the way Jeff is doing it.
umvi 7y ago
Ok, but Celeste isn't free except the prototype game jam version. I've spent well over $50 buying copies of Celeste for friends and family as gifts.
- egypturnash 7y ago
  It’s free on the Epic Game Store either right now or very soon.
- chii 7y ago
  it's a bit tongue in cheek - celeste being free is only due to Epic's drive to get more customers signed on. I don't think the Celeste devs are losing money. but his point stands - there are lots of great games that are free. Games whose graphical style and production value vastly out-weight his games.
- Pfhreak 7y ago
  Celeste is free this week (or maybe next week) on the Epic Games Store. From the customer's perspective, his point stands -- I can choose to play nothing but award winning, excellent games for between $0 and $10/month. How does a game developer compete when their audience already has a glut of excellent content to consume?
  - dkersten 7y ago
    I’ve got lots of AAA games for free on these deals too, does that mean that AAA are basically free and therefore shouldn’t bother with whatever they’re doing?
    - Pfhreak 7y ago
      Those AAA studios sell many, many more copies of their games (like, orders of magnitude more). The demand/sales curves are totally different when you are selling tens or hundreds of thousands of copies of a game. And yes, it does play into their budgeting/planning calculus as well. There's a reason there are so many franchise games these days...
  - 7y ago
forrestthewoods 7y ago
Jeff is a legend and a hero for staying in business as long as he has.
Lazare 7y ago
Meh. The most cogent criticism of the original post, I think, was that he was conflating cheap art with bad art. You can (and some indies do) have very cheap lo-fi art that still looks good in context. He does not, which is fine, because it is hard. His response to the critics was basically to double down on conflating cheap and bad. Which is a bit odd! How many times can you include a screenshot of a game with cheap, minimal (or even zero!) art that people still think looks good, and complain that people like how those games but not yours, and not realise that maybe there's something that sets them apart? Again, it's not the quality of the art, it's the overall aesthetic, and that does not require buying more art, buying better art, or learning to do better art personally. Angband and ADOM are lovely games that do not have a pixel of art (or didn't originally, at any rate; I guess there's tilesets now or something?), and I'd a dozen times rather stare at ADOM than at one of Vogel's games. That being said, he's still ultimately right. He is a one man shop, he has an established fan base, he's turning a profit, he's doing fine. He's quite right that hiring an artist (or maybe more relevantly, an art director) to try and fix the art problem is an unreasonable gamble. So...just stand up and own it. They're ugly games, the end. He's been very successful; he doesn't need to defend himself. Some devs make very pretty games with terrible story and gameplay, and that's fine. They don't need to post rambling defences about how their game is really just like Dwarf Fortress if you just squint hard enough. Not every game has to be good at everything!
- codesushi42 7y ago
  What guarantees that lo-fi art is cheap to make though? It can easily take more time to generate good, minimalist art in 2d than modeling something in Blender.
- jstummbillig 7y ago
  > he most cogent criticism of the original post, I think, was that he was conflating cheap art with bad art. You can (and some indies do) have very cheap lo-fi art that still looks good in context. He does not, which is fine, because it is hard. You are conflating lo-fi art with cheap and/or bad lo-fi art. "Cheap lo-fi art that looks good" is not a thing, because the talent that can make something lo-fi also look good and, more importantly, provide good art direction for an extensive project is not cheap. We are not talking a screen full of pixels or two. These games would require thousands upon thousands of art tiles, that all aim for a distinguishable, consistent and unique in overall style. As you said, it's hard. That makes it expensive, in either time or money, or both.
bluedino 7y ago
Does an artist really cost $150000? What about a contractor for 3-6 months?
- prawn 7y ago
  I'm not in the industry (well, we made one game!) but I bet there'd be loads of cheaper artists, especially through Asia. You'd get incredible artists much cheaper than that.
- deleted 7y ago
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- virgilone 7y ago
  Having been in this industry, I've seen it go that high and I've seen artists charge a lot less. It does operate more like a free market. I've hired many artists as contractors in the past, whether from the Eastern or Western hemisphere, sometimes the market is in your favor and you run into that perfect artist where the price is just right. Other times you'll pay through the teeth...
- austhrow743 7y ago
  You could easily spend that on any profession if you want to. You can get good artists for far cheaper if you want though. He even says so in his posts. He's always praising his contractors and he pays them $25/hr.
  - bscphil 7y ago
    He could hire that contractor to work for him full time for two years for only $100k, so I'm pretty skeptical that the price he gives truly reflects the cost of a minor art upgrade.
droithomme 7y ago
This guy's blog articles promoting his game company are appearing too often in HN. If it was one or two articles every few month's I'd understand but we are now seeing more than one article a month promoting his lo-Q games despite his releasing games on a less than annual basis and none of them containing interesting or new tech. edit: Also fascinating is the downvoting cabal for anyone that questions any of this. How many accounts does this guy have here? Oh and yes dang I am accusing him of fraud. I know you love to shit on anyone making comment about downvotes but this is genuinely a problem that you should look into between your interviews in major media you've set up promoting and stroking your ego and genius as a moderator that allows this site to be run as a astroturfing scam for sociopaths. The scammers play you and ride you and you let them. Wake up for goodness sake.
deleted 7y ago
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ac29 7y ago
> Many who are unfamiliar with this industry are surprised to find that artists are some of the highest paid people. Good, reliable artists are rare! Check out this site https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/games-artist/salary/ https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/games-artist/salary/, for salary estimates. > [snip] > If I'm lucky enough to find a good person, with bonuses and benefits and so on, I might be able to get this person for $150000-180000. His link seems to suggest that "top" (90th percentile) game artists make $62k/year. Lets round up the extra costs to the employer (payroll tax, health insurance, retirement benefits, etc) and call that $75k/year. If so, that suggests $150k would be nearly 2 full time years of a top-tier artist. I love Jeff's games and have bought and played many of them going back nearly 2 decades. But, I'm not convinced that the next step up from status quo is 2 fulltime years of a top tier artist. According to the same site, a median artist is $51k/year (with benefits/etc, lets say $65k/yr). Would hiring that person for a full year justify that extra $25k over his current $40k budget? I think so.
- overgard 7y ago
  I don't run a business, but my understanding is that a good rule of thumb for the cost of an employee is about double their salary when you start to factor in benefits, insurance, office space, equipment, quality of life things (snacks/coffee, etc), recruiting, etc. So an artist making 75k could cost 150k when all is said and done. (if youre american and youve ever had to pay for insurance out of pocket you probably know how expensive it is. When I lefta previous job it was 400/mo to continue my insurance, and some of my friends with families have to pay thousands)
- pfisch 7y ago
  I made Road Redemption, and honestly these insane figures that he lists only drive home for me how much he doesn't know what he is talking about here. He could get an acceptable 2d artist from another country for like 2-3k per month total. Then he could buy a bunch of existing tilesets from the unity asset store, or many other places, and have that person modify them. 1000 terrain icons is not even really very many. With 120k he could have an entire team of 2d artists if he wanted. He isn't some AAA studio that needs all custom top of the line handmade assets.
- 7y ago
manfredo 7y ago
I think the core issue is that people don't have a good grasp on the amount of money it takes to develop games, and the paltry amount of money that niche titles rake in. Take computer wargames and flight sims, for example. Hardcore wargames (e.g. Combat mission, Graviteam tactics, Grigsby's War in the *, etc.) are a very niche market. Even popular ones make a fraction of the sales that more popular titles bring in. Thus, it's not uncommon for the developers of these games to be 2-3 man shops, or even one-person companies. The consequence is that these games either have to cut down on quality or jack up prices. Why do modules in DCS often cost $60-$70 for just one plane? Because the small numbers of sales means that they will need to have a higher revenue per sale to break even. Why do so many wargames use 2d counters and hex grids? Because 3d art is expensive, and they need to keep costs low. Some people bring up color palette, and that this dev just doesn't have a good eye for art. Maybe that's the case, but the fundamental market principles still apply. He could spend money to hire an artist or spend time improving his art skills, but resources do not permit it.
- markus_zhang 7y ago
  Exactly. That's the reason I'm highly tolerant about high price for a wargame. Games like TOAW probably don't sell many because it's too tough to play for the ordinary people.
markus_zhang 7y ago
I pretty much agree with what he said in this post. Small business is tough and you have to purchase insurance and benefit for yourself, plus store some money to brace for winters. Many of my friends own small business due to their immigrant status, but few of them succeed. The bottom line is, he actually does not need to explain anything to outsiders if he wants. But his posts are very helpful for newbies in indie so I appreciate what he says. Plus I like his games and purchased each one of them except Queen's Wish. I'm also a cheap bastard and only buy on deep discount (66%+ off)...
phjesusthatguy3 7y ago
Wow, yeah, I read his previous blogpost, and I read the HN overmisunderstanding reaction to that, and I know I already agree with his followup. I'm not going to play one of his ugly games, because I'm not his target audience, but I might buy one just to support him.
- zimpenfish 7y ago
  > I'm not going to play one of his ugly games, because I'm not his target audience, but I might buy one just to support him. I've bought a whole bunch of them to support him - I don't mind the graphics but RPG just isn't my thing.
overgard 7y ago
So I understand what he's saying and it makes sense for him: he's got a style and an audience and there's a lot of risk to try to change up what he's doing. That being said.. What he's saying works for him. If you don't have an audience yet, and you don't really know what numbers your game is going to pull in, it makes sense to focus on having a more coherent art style. And the thing is, I think you could do the same style games he does with much better art without it costing much more, you just need an art style that isn't, for lack of better way of putting it, pseudo-photographic (I don't want to say "realistic" because it's obviously not going for that, but, there's no specific "style" to what he has other than "smaller versions of real things"). I think if you were to do a much simpler/more cartoony style, with an emphasis on choosing a nice color palette and nice lighting, you could actually make something nice looking without breaking out the bank. (Again not saying that's what he should do, he has something that works, just that I'm doubtful that "make games that look like they're from 1995 shareware" is a viable strategy to follow).
markus_zhang 7y ago
I think there are a few lessons that we can look into if we want to be indie developers: 1) Need to be "cheap", i.e. to save a lot for daily spending and others, and definitely try to get as many free stuffs as possible. Because whence we go indie, we have to pay our own insurances and benefits. 2) Try to find a niche market, best if it doesn't require expensive investment. E.g. flight simulation is also a niche market, but we definitely need a LOT of investment to make it work. For Jeff's games it is tile-map (easy to replicate and make new maps for), small size and interesting story and game system. 3) Stay WITHIN comfortable zone but evaluate our situation every year. If we can stay in comfortable zone and make easy money, why not? Players pick an easy table in poker if they are professional. They don't play for fame or excitement, but for monetary reasons ONLY. Indie gaming is one area that are pretty sticky and our users usually don't go away unless we make bad games, so evaluation once per year should be good enough. 4) Like any other business, better know something before diving into. Jeff is lucky. He started early and had the talent. Most people are not that lucky so some industry experience would be appreciated.
- rjf72 7y ago
  The easiest solution of all is simply to live in a place where the dollar goes a lot further, which is like 95% of the rest of the world. I don't really understand why more people don't go this route. It confuses me to see things like people living in places like Seattle/San Francisco when it's not strictly necessary. The amenities and interesting folks you find in these cities are not unique to these cities. The only things that seem very unique to them, in my experience, are the rather high salaries which, consequently, leads to an extremely high local cost of living as everything inflates in price in response to the salaries. Makes it a reasonable decision if you're drawing on these salaries, but if you're not...?
  - markus_zhang 7y ago
    Moving to other cities might be difficult if one has a family. But generally speaking I agree that there are other places that are cheaper and still have access to a lot of talents.
_the_inflator 7y ago
Bad news are good news, so kudos to Jeff to riding this wave. There are no ugly games, only markets. People should listen closely to him as he gives very sound advice. I read nobody in here stating: "Well I am also 25 years successfully in the business and here is my experience switching from ugly to artsy games." So why bother? Jeff is right when he says that he focusses only on the buyers and not on the haters. Haters drive the bad news, which is good news for Jeff. He will never be ignored nor forgotten. Rock on, Jeff!
- ptah 7y ago
  exactly, there is a difference between the "right" way and the "way that works"
  - dwild 7y ago
    > exactly, there is a difference between the "right" way and the "way that works" His post wasn't about the way that works, it was about the "only way that works". If that was a post about how he made games, I would have made an amazing comment on it, congratulating him on working so hard, most probably saying how I wouldn't have though there was so much works behind the scene, even more so on new engine on such an old looking games, etc... It wasn't that kind of post though... it was a post that said that art doesn't matter, that you just can't make it works (even though there so many games that does it). He just don't want to make it works. It's fine, it's not different than me that am a simple employee.
    - vidarh 7y ago
      You must have read different posts than me, because it didn't at all say that art doesn't matter. It says his customer base, in his niche isn't particularly sensitive to graphics, and that when he has tried improving it, he didn't get a return on investment.
Sniffnoy 7y ago
Non-mobile link: https://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2019/08/i-am-cheapest-bastard-in-indie-games.html https://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2019/08/i-am-cheapest-bastar...
thomasfromcdnjs 7y ago
He should brainstorm ideas around how is fan base could submit art suggestions for free.
zerr 7y ago
> I don't have that much cash on hand. Nowhere near. After watching his recent very interesting GDC talk* - he mentioned high six-figures income ($800K+). I guess he spends a lot :) EDIT: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs
- bscphil 7y ago
  Do you have a link? Assuming he is being honest in this article I have to assume he misspoke in the talk - surely "high five figures" is a more accurate summary of what's in the post.
  - zerr 7y ago
    Updated the comment. $8xxK was mentioned somewhere in the slides as well.
  - maccard 7y ago
    Link: https://youtu.be/stxVBJem3Rs?t=2594 https://youtu.be/stxVBJem3Rs?t=2594 Looks like a very specific number to misspeak in the talk. It's in the slides.
- zimpenfish 7y ago
  Do you have a timestamp? I downloaded the (auto-CC) transcript but can't find anything relevant in that text.
  - maccard 7y ago
    https://youtu.be/stxVBJem3Rs?t=2594 https://youtu.be/stxVBJem3Rs?t=2594
- vidarh 7y ago
  That's pre-inflation adjusted $750k gross, at a point with 3 employees. Take of cost of sales, marketing etc. and it will be ok but not massive per person (but also note he calls that $750k result "life changing"), and he also points out they have an ongoing cycle of peaks and troughs, and his 2011 numbers coincided with what he described as the "Indie bubble", and an initial burst from getting on Steam, and points out he sold more for a while, and then less again. He makes the point earlier in the video that the ~$200k/year mark inflation adjusted number is closer to the norm for them across his career.
turbinerneiter 7y ago
I wonder if it would be possible to "skin" the games. Allow for artists to reskin your game with "better" art. Let them put a price-tag on it and see how many of the people who dislike the art will be convinced that way. It seems to me that for indie game devs, you will always have games driven by what the developer is good at. Great artist, great looking game, great writer, well written game and so on.
- RGamma 7y ago
  I was gonna say this as well. The videogame community has several fantastically talented people in it, creating /tons/ of stuff as a hobby. Just look at all the mods and assets available on e.g. Steam marketplace or Mod DB, some of them entire games like Black Mesa: Source or Enderal. There already exist reskins of videogames (like the various Minecraft texture mods) and graphical improvement mods (like GTA V's "NaturalVision Remastered") some of which is done without any sort of official API. (One would probably call this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_labor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_labor, but I strongly dislike the term due to its association with big$ milking fans.) Given some thought about a general framework for this the ability to reskin might be a nice thing to have.
- vidarh 7y ago
  His site says he's constantly looking for freelance artists, and he has made a point of how he makes a lot of his money from reskinning and re-releasing his back catalog, so if one of the many people who seems to be so dead certain he'd do much better with better graphics and that it isn't such a big job wants to put their time/money where their mouth is, they could always contact him and propose a profit share.
jayd16 7y ago
These two blog posts have only shown that Jeff is unwilling to make a game with good art (and that's fine). The posts are more about convincing himself that that's ok. I don't think there's much general learning to be gained here other than maybe some budget numbers if you've never thought to price it out. As Jeff admits, the competition makes the art budget work. Its really just a production decision on what you're looking to make and what expertise you have access to.
- zimpenfish 7y ago
  > The posts are more about convincing himself that that's ok. I really don't think they are - people have ragged on the graphics for at least a decade and he's stuck by his guns (profitably, for 25 years!) These posts are about promoting the new game - he knows how to play the internet outrage machine for marketing.
StyloW 7y ago
This kinda reminds me of Howard Roark in The Fountainhead; people will hate but you keep doing your own thing because it's your passion, so as long as you can make a living off it, why change? Especially the idea that "he could be making a lot more money so why doesn't he?", sounds so freakishly greedy. I don't know any of his games, but I kinda feel like checking them out for the sole reason that this guy seems to have life figured out in his own way, so kudos to him.
chj 7y ago
I don't think his games look that bad as he claimed. Not eye candy, but functional enough. All the time and resources saved from polishing the graphics, he must have spent on improving the game playing. Sounds like a good trade off.
- wst_ 7y ago
  They are terrible in motion. My opinion, though, mind it.
kalado 7y ago
It makes me unreasonably mad that he includes a screenshot of the beautiful looking game undertale with the implication that his games look is even remotely in the same ballpark.
- radeklew 7y ago
  In the last post it was Baba is You, now Undertale, Celeste, Dwarf Fortress... I think this is a big reason why his posts are so polarizing, some people agree with his premise and are willing to overlook the insulting comparisons, while others take them as a sign that he doesn't know what he's talking about. It feels like there are two separate discussions happening, some people saying that there are beautiful games with next to no art budget and that the author should adopt some basic principles of design, with the other camp focussing on the fact that game devs shouldn't be expected to become artists. Obviously both camps are right and the author is right in basically saying "I'm fine with my games being ugly, they're still successful despite being ugly..." but then he goes and follows that up with "... just like all indie games,"
pvaldes 7y ago
Better walls than nethack, moria and slashem ascii ports
stuaxo 7y ago
The inconsistencies really stand out. Getting the first artist to lay down an art bible, with colours, sizes etc means the next one can work to the same style. Just setting some limitations, at the start of the game, like a colour palette etc would make it easier for him as worked.
- sha666sum 7y ago
  He also uses free assets, like those from OpenGameArt, which don't follow any specific palette.
polk 7y ago
Here's a mockup of the game with improved lighting. Top is edited, bottom is actual screenshot: https://twitter.com/RavenmoreArt/status/1164447066300588033 https://twitter.com/RavenmoreArt/status/1164447066300588033 The claim that changes like these take 12 months to learn and $11.0000 to implement, is incompetent at best or dishonest at worst.
- acd10j 7y ago
  I could be one of naive “art-blind”.But I cannot decide which ones are better, and for me both look same.
- whiddershins 7y ago
  That does not look better
- vidarh 7y ago
  I couldn't tell which was which.
bitwize 7y ago
I think I've found a secret -- One Weird Trick that will allow you to bring an artist aboard your game project for the bargain basement price of $0. The secret is this: Learn to draw. It's a lot of work, and it's not for everyone. But I taught myself the basics of art so that I could have art for my game projects. It may not be the greatest art in the world, but it will accurately reflect my vision. That said, I also find resources like OpenGameArt terrific -- as inspiration. If I want to create, say, a tile set for a particular scene, I might go look up someone else's tile set, and then create a similar one from scratch.

298 points by grawprog 7y ago

This is a response to the responses to this article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20765521 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20765521 Posted a few days ago.

duskwuff 7y ago
Is it really a response, though? It feels like a repeat of the same article -- down to many of the same filler images.
- grawprog 7y ago
  Fair point honestly, it seemed worth posting for continuity though.
- chii 7y ago
  it is a good response, and it does give logical, rational arguments as to why the criticisms given to him are invalid.
bscphil 7y ago
Reading it, it seems more of a response to people on Reddit who may have had different criticisms. I didn't see anything in the post suggesting he knew about the HN thread, although I could have missed something.

Causality1 7y ago

>But I can write well. I make good settings and stories, my spelling and grammar are ok, I make addicting game systems, and my systems and stories blend really well. THAT is the product I sell. If that's true and he's good at those things, then why doesn't the product sell well enough to hire people to make the next game not look like a game design student's homework assignment?

gameswithgo 7y ago
his game studio has made a very good living for decades. he has outperformed 99% of the industry AND still gets to actually make games instead of run a company and herd cats. he is the guy who actually has it figured out by many measures.
scarejunba 7y ago
Maybe he's saying that adding good art won't make his games sell better. In that case it would just be cost without gain.
- chii 7y ago
  That's probably true. Good art style/aesthetics is a foot in the door for a lot of gamers, unfortunately. A game needs to stand on a foundation of good game mechanics (and possibly good writing), but the mainstream players' choice to try your game is gated by the production value and direction/style of the art.
- effarig 7y ago
  I personally have not bought Vogel's games based solely on their amateur visual appearance, and given the fact that he's never put out a "good-looking" game, how does he even know how it would affect sales?
  - sangnoir 7y ago
    > how does he even know how it would affect sales? He doesn't know - but he feels he does not need to take the risk to find out because the stakes are too high for him (since he'll need to borrow from a bank or his retirement savings). I'm sure those who feel strongly about the potential on HN, reddit and elsewhere could band together and crowdfund/formally pitch Jeff on an investment in an artist for a subsequent game and capture the upside while shouldering the risk - he probably would be happy to take the money; he's not ready to put up his.
    - zapzupnz 7y ago

deogeo 7y ago

Reposting my comment from the duplicate thread at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20804401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20804401: In the previous thread, someone made a good point - his newer games, with more resources spent on them, look worse than the old ones. Someone else applied pixelization/palletization to the screenshot of his new game, and the degraded quality made it look better: https://i.imgur.com/oPH7paD.jpg https://i.imgur.com/oPH7paD.jpg Of course neither point is addressed, and he keeps pretending that the only way to improve is to expend more resources. As also pointed out in the previous discussion, that's because he simply doesn't have an eye for art. He compares his game to the consistent-and-pleasant-to-look-at Baba Is You, because he can't see the difference, and so he doesn't even see there's a problem to be solved. We might as well try to explain the difference between blue and red to a blind person. That's why he can show a picture of dwarf fortress without realizing it looks better than his game. Going for a Caves of Qud look would also probably save him money - but he simply can't see that it looks better.

sha666sum 7y ago
Those other versions don't look better, though.
hitekker 7y ago
Hopefully, your perspective dissuades others from alchemizing the author's rationalization.
catern 7y ago
Actually I think he engages with your point pretty well. You say: >he simply doesn't have an eye for art and >he keeps pretending that the only way to improve is to expend more resources. But he says: >By the way, for people who asked me why I don't just learn to do better art myself, this is why. To learn to do better art, I'd need to spend at least 6-12 months. (To think it takes less is insulting to artists.) I just don't have the time to not be writing games. It seems correct that for him to develop an eye for art, would require him to expend resources. How is he supposed to develop an eye for art? Listen to all the comments on his posts? I don't think so, random internet comments are rarely a good source of advice. Developing a taste for art that will actually improve his games will take time and study and possibly even trial and error. And applying that taste once it's developed will take even more time. And it seems totally plausible to me that he can't afford to spend those resources. His argument is very specific to his own situation. But it seems likely to be correct about his own situation.

codesushi42 7y ago

Here is what the critics don't get. You are game devs. You are Jeff's peers. You are not representative of his customer base. Did it ever occur to the critics that Jeff's customers may not actually value the quality of artwork in his games all that much? At least not as much as the storytelling. Even more importantly is staying consistent with what fans expect. It is called "branding", geniuses. If Jeff all of a sudden released a game with an artsy fartsy style, he'd be gambling his future. He might end up alienating his existing customer base by not giving them what they've come to expect, and his experiment may not work for acquiring new customers. I am sick of armchair critics. Jeff has been doing this for a long time, and longer than all of these know-it-alls. Your opinions mean nothing. His repeated success does.

adnzzzzZ 7y ago
If you go up to a bunch of people doing a craft and you show yourself displaying extremely poor technique and care for the craft itself, those craftsmen will disrespect you, and they will be right. As an indie developer it's kind of tiring to hear all these developers constantly praising mediocrity and showing no will to improve their craftsmanship as long as they're able to make a living. You can also make a living and be extremely skilled and care about constantly improving, it's not an either/or situation.
- danbolt 7y ago
  I think Jeff is pretty invested in his craft in general, but it’s just that he focuses on making an ideal product with the resources and abilities he has available to him.
- codesushi42 7y ago
  That is just your opinion. But does it matter? It is rare for any indie developer to be making any kind of "a living" from making games. The fact that Jeff does already makes him exceptional. As a gamer, I could care less about whatever rubbish being claimed about his "technique" and "craftsmanship". His games are entertaining, unique, and better than most indies in my eyes.

Sophistifunk 7y ago

You guys it's OK for some guy to make ugly games, and for other people you don't know to buy them, right? He's happy, his wife is happy, his customers are happy, his rent gets paid. So why is everybody trying to sprout off about how they have the solution to a "problem" he doesn't have?

Pfhreak 7y ago
I think because most people dramatically underestimate the complexity of making games and overestimate the sales of games. It's easy to say, "Just hire an artist" without understanding the complexities in finding that artist, negotiating a contract, ensuring they are delivering to your expectations, tracking their progress, ensuring they meet your creative vision, and recouping the money in sales to actually pay them.
- thomasmeeks 7y ago
  Yep, for all it’s business know-how HN just doesn’t understand this one. He’s making games for people that value story and world building above all else. He’s making a relative pittance doing so — seemingly much less than a full time gig at a faang company. He’s presumably happy, his customers are presumably happy, yet we insist on giving him obvious advice about a 25 year old venture. It’s honestly hilarious to see the immense amount of time collectively wasted armchairing over it!
  - Tehdasi 7y ago
    "Yep, for all it’s business know-how HN just doesn’t understand this one." TBF his argument comes down to 'putting money into the company is too risky', which does go against the method of startups which is to pour huge amounts of into a company and take huge risks. Less poor know-how, more of failure to conceive of other ways of doing business.
    - JamesFM 7y ago
      I don't think there is a hockey stick to chase in game development. At least not the way Jeff is doing it.

umvi 7y ago

Ok, but Celeste isn't free except the prototype game jam version. I've spent well over $50 buying copies of Celeste for friends and family as gifts.

egypturnash 7y ago
It’s free on the Epic Game Store either right now or very soon.
chii 7y ago
it's a bit tongue in cheek - celeste being free is only due to Epic's drive to get more customers signed on. I don't think the Celeste devs are losing money. but his point stands - there are lots of great games that are free. Games whose graphical style and production value vastly out-weight his games.
Pfhreak 7y ago
Celeste is free this week (or maybe next week) on the Epic Games Store. From the customer's perspective, his point stands -- I can choose to play nothing but award winning, excellent games for between $0 and $10/month. How does a game developer compete when their audience already has a glut of excellent content to consume?
- dkersten 7y ago
  I’ve got lots of AAA games for free on these deals too, does that mean that AAA are basically free and therefore shouldn’t bother with whatever they’re doing?
  - Pfhreak 7y ago
    Those AAA studios sell many, many more copies of their games (like, orders of magnitude more). The demand/sales curves are totally different when you are selling tens or hundreds of thousands of copies of a game. And yes, it does play into their budgeting/planning calculus as well. There's a reason there are so many franchise games these days...
- 7y ago

forrestthewoods 7y ago

Jeff is a legend and a hero for staying in business as long as he has.

Lazare 7y ago

Meh. The most cogent criticism of the original post, I think, was that he was conflating cheap art with bad art. You can (and some indies do) have very cheap lo-fi art that still looks good in context. He does not, which is fine, because it is hard. His response to the critics was basically to double down on conflating cheap and bad. Which is a bit odd! How many times can you include a screenshot of a game with cheap, minimal (or even zero!) art that people still think looks good, and complain that people like how those games but not yours, and not realise that maybe there's something that sets them apart? Again, it's not the quality of the art, it's the overall aesthetic, and that does not require buying more art, buying better art, or learning to do better art personally. Angband and ADOM are lovely games that do not have a pixel of art (or didn't originally, at any rate; I guess there's tilesets now or something?), and I'd a dozen times rather stare at ADOM than at one of Vogel's games. That being said, he's still ultimately right. He is a one man shop, he has an established fan base, he's turning a profit, he's doing fine. He's quite right that hiring an artist (or maybe more relevantly, an art director) to try and fix the art problem is an unreasonable gamble. So...just stand up and own it. They're ugly games, the end. He's been very successful; he doesn't need to defend himself. Some devs make very pretty games with terrible story and gameplay, and that's fine. They don't need to post rambling defences about how their game is really just like Dwarf Fortress if you just squint hard enough. Not every game has to be good at everything!

codesushi42 7y ago
What guarantees that lo-fi art is cheap to make though? It can easily take more time to generate good, minimalist art in 2d than modeling something in Blender.
jstummbillig 7y ago
> he most cogent criticism of the original post, I think, was that he was conflating cheap art with bad art. You can (and some indies do) have very cheap lo-fi art that still looks good in context. He does not, which is fine, because it is hard. You are conflating lo-fi art with cheap and/or bad lo-fi art. "Cheap lo-fi art that looks good" is not a thing, because the talent that can make something lo-fi also look good and, more importantly, provide good art direction for an extensive project is not cheap. We are not talking a screen full of pixels or two. These games would require thousands upon thousands of art tiles, that all aim for a distinguishable, consistent and unique in overall style. As you said, it's hard. That makes it expensive, in either time or money, or both.

bluedino 7y ago

Does an artist really cost $150000? What about a contractor for 3-6 months?

prawn 7y ago
I'm not in the industry (well, we made one game!) but I bet there'd be loads of cheaper artists, especially through Asia. You'd get incredible artists much cheaper than that.
deleted 7y ago
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virgilone 7y ago
Having been in this industry, I've seen it go that high and I've seen artists charge a lot less. It does operate more like a free market. I've hired many artists as contractors in the past, whether from the Eastern or Western hemisphere, sometimes the market is in your favor and you run into that perfect artist where the price is just right. Other times you'll pay through the teeth...
austhrow743 7y ago
You could easily spend that on any profession if you want to. You can get good artists for far cheaper if you want though. He even says so in his posts. He's always praising his contractors and he pays them $25/hr.
- bscphil 7y ago
  He could hire that contractor to work for him full time for two years for only $100k, so I'm pretty skeptical that the price he gives truly reflects the cost of a minor art upgrade.

droithomme 7y ago

This guy's blog articles promoting his game company are appearing too often in HN. If it was one or two articles every few month's I'd understand but we are now seeing more than one article a month promoting his lo-Q games despite his releasing games on a less than annual basis and none of them containing interesting or new tech. edit: Also fascinating is the downvoting cabal for anyone that questions any of this. How many accounts does this guy have here? Oh and yes dang I am accusing him of fraud. I know you love to shit on anyone making comment about downvotes but this is genuinely a problem that you should look into between your interviews in major media you've set up promoting and stroking your ego and genius as a moderator that allows this site to be run as a astroturfing scam for sociopaths. The scammers play you and ride you and you let them. Wake up for goodness sake.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

ac29 7y ago

> Many who are unfamiliar with this industry are surprised to find that artists are some of the highest paid people. Good, reliable artists are rare! Check out this site https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/games-artist/salary/ https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/games-artist/salary/, for salary estimates. > [snip] > If I'm lucky enough to find a good person, with bonuses and benefits and so on, I might be able to get this person for $150000-180000. His link seems to suggest that "top" (90th percentile) game artists make $62k/year. Lets round up the extra costs to the employer (payroll tax, health insurance, retirement benefits, etc) and call that $75k/year. If so, that suggests $150k would be nearly 2 full time years of a top-tier artist. I love Jeff's games and have bought and played many of them going back nearly 2 decades. But, I'm not convinced that the next step up from status quo is 2 fulltime years of a top tier artist. According to the same site, a median artist is $51k/year (with benefits/etc, lets say $65k/yr). Would hiring that person for a full year justify that extra $25k over his current $40k budget? I think so.

overgard 7y ago
I don't run a business, but my understanding is that a good rule of thumb for the cost of an employee is about double their salary when you start to factor in benefits, insurance, office space, equipment, quality of life things (snacks/coffee, etc), recruiting, etc. So an artist making 75k could cost 150k when all is said and done. (if youre american and youve ever had to pay for insurance out of pocket you probably know how expensive it is. When I lefta previous job it was 400/mo to continue my insurance, and some of my friends with families have to pay thousands)
pfisch 7y ago
I made Road Redemption, and honestly these insane figures that he lists only drive home for me how much he doesn't know what he is talking about here. He could get an acceptable 2d artist from another country for like 2-3k per month total. Then he could buy a bunch of existing tilesets from the unity asset store, or many other places, and have that person modify them. 1000 terrain icons is not even really very many. With 120k he could have an entire team of 2d artists if he wanted. He isn't some AAA studio that needs all custom top of the line handmade assets.
7y ago

manfredo 7y ago

I think the core issue is that people don't have a good grasp on the amount of money it takes to develop games, and the paltry amount of money that niche titles rake in. Take computer wargames and flight sims, for example. Hardcore wargames (e.g. Combat mission, Graviteam tactics, Grigsby's War in the *, etc.) are a very niche market. Even popular ones make a fraction of the sales that more popular titles bring in. Thus, it's not uncommon for the developers of these games to be 2-3 man shops, or even one-person companies. The consequence is that these games either have to cut down on quality or jack up prices. Why do modules in DCS often cost $60-$70 for just one plane? Because the small numbers of sales means that they will need to have a higher revenue per sale to break even. Why do so many wargames use 2d counters and hex grids? Because 3d art is expensive, and they need to keep costs low. Some people bring up color palette, and that this dev just doesn't have a good eye for art. Maybe that's the case, but the fundamental market principles still apply. He could spend money to hire an artist or spend time improving his art skills, but resources do not permit it.

markus_zhang 7y ago
Exactly. That's the reason I'm highly tolerant about high price for a wargame. Games like TOAW probably don't sell many because it's too tough to play for the ordinary people.

markus_zhang 7y ago

I pretty much agree with what he said in this post. Small business is tough and you have to purchase insurance and benefit for yourself, plus store some money to brace for winters. Many of my friends own small business due to their immigrant status, but few of them succeed. The bottom line is, he actually does not need to explain anything to outsiders if he wants. But his posts are very helpful for newbies in indie so I appreciate what he says. Plus I like his games and purchased each one of them except Queen's Wish. I'm also a cheap bastard and only buy on deep discount (66%+ off)...

phjesusthatguy3 7y ago

Wow, yeah, I read his previous blogpost, and I read the HN overmisunderstanding reaction to that, and I know I already agree with his followup. I'm not going to play one of his ugly games, because I'm not his target audience, but I might buy one just to support him.

zimpenfish 7y ago
> I'm not going to play one of his ugly games, because I'm not his target audience, but I might buy one just to support him. I've bought a whole bunch of them to support him - I don't mind the graphics but RPG just isn't my thing.

overgard 7y ago

So I understand what he's saying and it makes sense for him: he's got a style and an audience and there's a lot of risk to try to change up what he's doing. That being said.. What he's saying works for him. If you don't have an audience yet, and you don't really know what numbers your game is going to pull in, it makes sense to focus on having a more coherent art style. And the thing is, I think you could do the same style games he does with much better art without it costing much more, you just need an art style that isn't, for lack of better way of putting it, pseudo-photographic (I don't want to say "realistic" because it's obviously not going for that, but, there's no specific "style" to what he has other than "smaller versions of real things"). I think if you were to do a much simpler/more cartoony style, with an emphasis on choosing a nice color palette and nice lighting, you could actually make something nice looking without breaking out the bank. (Again not saying that's what he should do, he has something that works, just that I'm doubtful that "make games that look like they're from 1995 shareware" is a viable strategy to follow).

markus_zhang 7y ago

I think there are a few lessons that we can look into if we want to be indie developers: 1) Need to be "cheap", i.e. to save a lot for daily spending and others, and definitely try to get as many free stuffs as possible. Because whence we go indie, we have to pay our own insurances and benefits. 2) Try to find a niche market, best if it doesn't require expensive investment. E.g. flight simulation is also a niche market, but we definitely need a LOT of investment to make it work. For Jeff's games it is tile-map (easy to replicate and make new maps for), small size and interesting story and game system. 3) Stay WITHIN comfortable zone but evaluate our situation every year. If we can stay in comfortable zone and make easy money, why not? Players pick an easy table in poker if they are professional. They don't play for fame or excitement, but for monetary reasons ONLY. Indie gaming is one area that are pretty sticky and our users usually don't go away unless we make bad games, so evaluation once per year should be good enough. 4) Like any other business, better know something before diving into. Jeff is lucky. He started early and had the talent. Most people are not that lucky so some industry experience would be appreciated.

rjf72 7y ago
The easiest solution of all is simply to live in a place where the dollar goes a lot further, which is like 95% of the rest of the world. I don't really understand why more people don't go this route. It confuses me to see things like people living in places like Seattle/San Francisco when it's not strictly necessary. The amenities and interesting folks you find in these cities are not unique to these cities. The only things that seem very unique to them, in my experience, are the rather high salaries which, consequently, leads to an extremely high local cost of living as everything inflates in price in response to the salaries. Makes it a reasonable decision if you're drawing on these salaries, but if you're not...?
- markus_zhang 7y ago
  Moving to other cities might be difficult if one has a family. But generally speaking I agree that there are other places that are cheaper and still have access to a lot of talents.

_the_inflator 7y ago

Bad news are good news, so kudos to Jeff to riding this wave. There are no ugly games, only markets. People should listen closely to him as he gives very sound advice. I read nobody in here stating: "Well I am also 25 years successfully in the business and here is my experience switching from ugly to artsy games." So why bother? Jeff is right when he says that he focusses only on the buyers and not on the haters. Haters drive the bad news, which is good news for Jeff. He will never be ignored nor forgotten. Rock on, Jeff!

ptah 7y ago
exactly, there is a difference between the "right" way and the "way that works"
- dwild 7y ago
  > exactly, there is a difference between the "right" way and the "way that works" His post wasn't about the way that works, it was about the "only way that works". If that was a post about how he made games, I would have made an amazing comment on it, congratulating him on working so hard, most probably saying how I wouldn't have though there was so much works behind the scene, even more so on new engine on such an old looking games, etc... It wasn't that kind of post though... it was a post that said that art doesn't matter, that you just can't make it works (even though there so many games that does it). He just don't want to make it works. It's fine, it's not different than me that am a simple employee.
  - vidarh 7y ago
    You must have read different posts than me, because it didn't at all say that art doesn't matter. It says his customer base, in his niche isn't particularly sensitive to graphics, and that when he has tried improving it, he didn't get a return on investment.

Sniffnoy 7y ago

Non-mobile link: https://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2019/08/i-am-cheapest-bastard-in-indie-games.html https://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2019/08/i-am-cheapest-bastar...

thomasfromcdnjs 7y ago

He should brainstorm ideas around how is fan base could submit art suggestions for free.

zerr 7y ago

> I don't have that much cash on hand. Nowhere near. After watching his recent very interesting GDC talk* - he mentioned high six-figures income ($800K+). I guess he spends a lot :) EDIT: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs

bscphil 7y ago
Do you have a link? Assuming he is being honest in this article I have to assume he misspoke in the talk - surely "high five figures" is a more accurate summary of what's in the post.
- zerr 7y ago
  Updated the comment. $8xxK was mentioned somewhere in the slides as well.
- maccard 7y ago
  Link: https://youtu.be/stxVBJem3Rs?t=2594 https://youtu.be/stxVBJem3Rs?t=2594 Looks like a very specific number to misspeak in the talk. It's in the slides.
zimpenfish 7y ago
Do you have a timestamp? I downloaded the (auto-CC) transcript but can't find anything relevant in that text.
- maccard 7y ago
  https://youtu.be/stxVBJem3Rs?t=2594 https://youtu.be/stxVBJem3Rs?t=2594
vidarh 7y ago
That's pre-inflation adjusted $750k gross, at a point with 3 employees. Take of cost of sales, marketing etc. and it will be ok but not massive per person (but also note he calls that $750k result "life changing"), and he also points out they have an ongoing cycle of peaks and troughs, and his 2011 numbers coincided with what he described as the "Indie bubble", and an initial burst from getting on Steam, and points out he sold more for a while, and then less again. He makes the point earlier in the video that the ~$200k/year mark inflation adjusted number is closer to the norm for them across his career.

turbinerneiter 7y ago

I wonder if it would be possible to "skin" the games. Allow for artists to reskin your game with "better" art. Let them put a price-tag on it and see how many of the people who dislike the art will be convinced that way. It seems to me that for indie game devs, you will always have games driven by what the developer is good at. Great artist, great looking game, great writer, well written game and so on.

RGamma 7y ago
I was gonna say this as well. The videogame community has several fantastically talented people in it, creating /tons/ of stuff as a hobby. Just look at all the mods and assets available on e.g. Steam marketplace or Mod DB, some of them entire games like Black Mesa: Source or Enderal. There already exist reskins of videogames (like the various Minecraft texture mods) and graphical improvement mods (like GTA V's "NaturalVision Remastered") some of which is done without any sort of official API. (One would probably call this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_labor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_labor, but I strongly dislike the term due to its association with big$ milking fans.) Given some thought about a general framework for this the ability to reskin might be a nice thing to have.
vidarh 7y ago
His site says he's constantly looking for freelance artists, and he has made a point of how he makes a lot of his money from reskinning and re-releasing his back catalog, so if one of the many people who seems to be so dead certain he'd do much better with better graphics and that it isn't such a big job wants to put their time/money where their mouth is, they could always contact him and propose a profit share.

jayd16 7y ago

These two blog posts have only shown that Jeff is unwilling to make a game with good art (and that's fine). The posts are more about convincing himself that that's ok. I don't think there's much general learning to be gained here other than maybe some budget numbers if you've never thought to price it out. As Jeff admits, the competition makes the art budget work. Its really just a production decision on what you're looking to make and what expertise you have access to.

zimpenfish 7y ago
> The posts are more about convincing himself that that's ok. I really don't think they are - people have ragged on the graphics for at least a decade and he's stuck by his guns (profitably, for 25 years!) These posts are about promoting the new game - he knows how to play the internet outrage machine for marketing.

StyloW 7y ago

This kinda reminds me of Howard Roark in The Fountainhead; people will hate but you keep doing your own thing because it's your passion, so as long as you can make a living off it, why change? Especially the idea that "he could be making a lot more money so why doesn't he?", sounds so freakishly greedy. I don't know any of his games, but I kinda feel like checking them out for the sole reason that this guy seems to have life figured out in his own way, so kudos to him.

chj 7y ago

I don't think his games look that bad as he claimed. Not eye candy, but functional enough. All the time and resources saved from polishing the graphics, he must have spent on improving the game playing. Sounds like a good trade off.

wst_ 7y ago
They are terrible in motion. My opinion, though, mind it.

kalado 7y ago

It makes me unreasonably mad that he includes a screenshot of the beautiful looking game undertale with the implication that his games look is even remotely in the same ballpark.

radeklew 7y ago
In the last post it was Baba is You, now Undertale, Celeste, Dwarf Fortress... I think this is a big reason why his posts are so polarizing, some people agree with his premise and are willing to overlook the insulting comparisons, while others take them as a sign that he doesn't know what he's talking about. It feels like there are two separate discussions happening, some people saying that there are beautiful games with next to no art budget and that the author should adopt some basic principles of design, with the other camp focussing on the fact that game devs shouldn't be expected to become artists. Obviously both camps are right and the author is right in basically saying "I'm fine with my games being ugly, they're still successful despite being ugly..." but then he goes and follows that up with "... just like all indie games,"

pvaldes 7y ago

Better walls than nethack, moria and slashem ascii ports

stuaxo 7y ago

The inconsistencies really stand out. Getting the first artist to lay down an art bible, with colours, sizes etc means the next one can work to the same style. Just setting some limitations, at the start of the game, like a colour palette etc would make it easier for him as worked.

sha666sum 7y ago
He also uses free assets, like those from OpenGameArt, which don't follow any specific palette.

polk 7y ago

Here's a mockup of the game with improved lighting. Top is edited, bottom is actual screenshot: https://twitter.com/RavenmoreArt/status/1164447066300588033 https://twitter.com/RavenmoreArt/status/1164447066300588033 The claim that changes like these take 12 months to learn and $11.0000 to implement, is incompetent at best or dishonest at worst.

acd10j 7y ago
I could be one of naive “art-blind”.But I cannot decide which ones are better, and for me both look same.
whiddershins 7y ago
That does not look better
vidarh 7y ago
I couldn't tell which was which.

bitwize 7y ago

I think I've found a secret -- One Weird Trick that will allow you to bring an artist aboard your game project for the bargain basement price of $0. The secret is this: Learn to draw. It's a lot of work, and it's not for everyone. But I taught myself the basics of art so that I could have art for my game projects. It may not be the greatest art in the world, but it will accurately reflect my vision. That said, I also find resources like OpenGameArt terrific -- as inspiration. If I want to create, say, a tile set for a particular scene, I might go look up someone else's tile set, and then create a similar one from scratch.