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> Annedoctally as a recent father of a 6 month old, I would likely self report a good sleep quality in a questionnaire. However, objectively I know I sleep abou

> Annedoctally as a recent father of a 6 month old, I would likely self report a good sleep quality in a questionnaire. However, objectively I know I sleep about 5 hours 30min yesterday evening, which would be sufficient sleep 'deprivation' to impact T production. When our 9 month old started to sleep through the night (at around 4-5 months), we'd get between 5-6 hours of sleep, which after the interrupted sleep of the previous 4 months, felt like a full night's sleep but this is sleep deprivation territory, specially given the fact that it was 7 days a week. I know I could only survive on this little sleep because I wasn't exercising. > Also I think parents in general will also have strong bias to not want to acknowledge their own child as a 'nuissance' in a survey/questionnaire. I think this is one of the biggest taboos in Western society: Anything about a newborn/small child must be 100% positive This is absolute bullshit I can see the downsides of having a child without loving him (in my case) any less

jbverschoor 7y ago
Thank oh for being honest. There’s actually a topic on a different forum that is exactly about the taboo’ed negative things about parenting. People refuse to see/acknowledge this, esp. women.
- mffnbs 7y ago
  People would respect you more if you kept the sexist bullshit to yourself. Or better yet, the reply that you will inevitably have to this comment? Don't post it and instead reflect on why one might view you as sexist, then attempt to change your behavior to reflect what you've learned.
  - afiori 7y ago
    Not the same person, but it was not necessarily sexist. Not everyone is trained in the art of threading the line between offense and social justice. The same meaning could (possibly) have been written in SJW terms
- sundvor 7y ago
  Being a dad, whilst rewarding in its own rights, can also be hard AF. Throw in a diagnosis of ASD+ADHD with therapies etc that must be managed, and the pressures just sky rocketed. Managing his behaviour feels like an everlasting uphill battle. So much energy is drained, especially during meltdowns, causing frictions in the whole family. So in order to be able to look after him I also need to look after myself. Getting enough sleep, some decompression time, looking after my body and still performing well at work is an everlasting struggle. I don't expect people not in my situation to understand. At least I'm lucky in that it's "high functioning" we're talking about, even as much as a lot of people take objection to that term. But I know with effort he has every opportunity to thrive. Nonetheless, in a market where as an engineer you need to stay on top of new stuff constantly ... yep, it's tough. We do it because we must. Edit: Some additional thoughts. As difficult as it sometimes is, being a parent is also a source of great joy. The responsibilities truly grow you as a person, and you kind of learn to cope. It's not something that's all at once either, I mean, you take it day by day, and you just learn. As for work, for me it has helped that I'm truly passionate about what I'm doing, so have enjoyed learning about the new tech. I'm not saying I've got the same amount of talent, but it's amazing what persistence and a lot of deep dives into e.g Pluralsight can offer. As I grow older I'm more aware of my limitations, and picking the right horses (not just one) is über important. Picking the right employer is equally important; being up front about the situation can yield amazing results.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - dhimes 7y ago
    Some people grow. Others dump almost everything on their spouse and a deep resentment grows in the marriage. You envy the good times they have and the stories they have, but not their life as there is obviously a lot a pain at home. Kudos to you, it sounds like you are doing it right. Hang in there.
    - sundvor 7y ago
      Thanks, much appreciated. I've made lots of mistakes but keep trying to improve. Setting expectations for my new employer that I share the load for son's appointments, and finding one that accepted this, was probably relationship-saving decision making as such. We have it good in software in that we can work remotely, and flexible hours. Sure it comes at a certain cost ("always on") but for myself the benefits certainly outweigh drawbacks. Cheers!
- stephencanon 7y ago
  The people hit hardest by this are women. Society places much, much higher expectations on the wrt motherhood than it does for fathers. I know a huge number of women who love their kids but deeply mourn their lost independence and career opportunity they might have had without them, to say nothing of the profound physical impact of carrying a pregnancy. Women understand these issues really well, they just don’t feel comfortable talking about them with many men.
  - belorn 7y ago
    That is a very simplistic view of the issue. Just as society places much higher expectation that mothers will take care the child, society also places a much higher expectation that fathers will continue to go to work. Fathers with interrupted 5hrs of combined sleep are expected to do the exact same workload and work performance as they did had when they got uninterrupted 8 or 9hrs of sleep. Talking about who got "hit hardest" is kind of pointless. Society expectation on fathers and mothers are formed from restricted gender roles. There are both women and men that feel extremely restricted from this. There is no objective "worse" fate to be either forced to go to work when you want to take care of the kids, or forced to take care of the kids when you want to go to work.
    - stephencanon 7y ago
      > There is no objective "worse" fate to be either forced to go to work when you want to take care of the kids, or forced to take care of the kids when you want to go to work. Yes, but that’s not what grandparent was talking about. They were writing specifically about the expectation that parents unconditionally think their children are the best thing that ever happened to them. The burden of this specific expectation falls much more heavily on mothers.
      - kareemm 7y ago
        You’re cherry picking and responding to the example. The broader point is this, and in my experience as a (male) parent it’s true: > Talking about who got "hit hardest" is kind of pointless. Society expectation on fathers and mothers are formed from restricted gender roles. There are both women and men that feel extremely restricted from this.
mockingbirdy 7y ago
I think you can enjoy some Louis CK on parenthood. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5jAUgJATAg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5jAUgJATAg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=166L3cE3zyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=166L3cE3zyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEJAOfHlREA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEJAOfHlREA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cubu_JeaV2g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cubu_JeaV2g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u27b7bAY1ro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u27b7bAY1ro
DrAwdeOccarim 7y ago
I haven't noticed the "anything about a newborn/small child must be 100% positive" in my group of friends, especially my work colleagues. I've been pretty straight forward about how hard the whole thing has been, especially adding a second child to the mix before the first one was 2 yo. I wouldn't recommend having a second child to anyone unless they really, really wanted it. It's hard af. Logarithmically harder than one.
- jkestner 7y ago
  Maybe the only constant is that every child is different. We had two close together, and it became a net positive about two years in, when they could keep each other occupied much of the time. And they'll have a built-in best friend. We talk about our personal perspective, but what do you wish your parents did for you?
  - mkane848 7y ago
    That's assuming things go well. My two older siblings are, uh, let's just say they're not very close and dealing with them growing up was an experience in and of itself.
- mleo 7y ago
  I can see the social media aspect of presenting the perfect child persona, but it is BS. Going to three is exponentially harder. With two, one parent can usually manage both or worse each can manage one kid. Go to three and parents are outnumbered. And generally only two kids ever get along at one time, so there always the outlier. Even numbers are best it seems.
  - m_coder 7y ago
    And moving to five children is another level. :) Parenting is what you do not a side project. Also the effects of parenting are more like keeping a good culture going and showing what are healthy ways of relating so that children can relate well to each other and enjoy being part of the family.
  - 7y ago
matwood 7y ago
Reminds me of this article I saw the other day. https://www.newscientist.com/article/2213655-having-kids-makes-you-happier-but-only-when-they-move-out/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2213655-having-kids-mak... People with kids are happier than those without, only after their kids move out.
- dhimes 7y ago
  My last child moves out (to college) next week. We'll see. It's been pretty cool raising them, and now that they are young men it's fun and hilarious to get them all together. For a few years it was very stressful, and life always revolved around them (I was pretty active in their life). I expect that it'll be pretty different. Maybe I'll get some T back!
nradov 7y ago
Lack of exercise doesn't necessarily make it easier to survive sleep deprivation. It would be rather the opposite for most people since some moderate exercise tends to improve the quality of the limited sleep that you do get.
- philwelch 7y ago
  Exercise helps you sleep better, so if you don’t exercise, you already sleep like crap and the other stuff doesn’t make a difference.
koolba 7y ago
> When our 9 month old started to sleep through the night (at around 4-5 months), we'd get between 5-6 hours of sleep, which after the interrupted sleep of the previous 4 months, felt like a full night's sleep but this is sleep deprivation territory, specially given the fact that it was 7 days a week. Assuming you have the space for it, I never understood couples that insist on both parents being woken up every night by a newborn. Much better for everyone involved to trade off nightly so that the other person can get a full nights rest. I'm 99% certain that no baby cares that only one parent is being disturbed.
- saganus 7y ago
  I'm not a parent so my knowledge here is pretty scarce, but what I've understood from friends that have kids, is that when a baby wakes up, both parents wake up due to instinct (i.e. is the baby ok?). So I wonder if what you suggest would require some accomodation. E.g. have the 'on-call' parent sleep in the same room as the baby, and the other one can sleep in another room with the door closed. Is this what you mean by saying that both parent need not be waken up? or are there some other methods that would help out with this?
  - phalangion 7y ago
    I think early on with a new baby, both parents wake up more due to novelty than instinct. When you're used to not having a crying child in the middle of the night, suddenly having one takes some adjustment. Since my wife nursed the kids, our arrangement was that she would be up with babies at night almost every time, and I would be up with them in the morning when they decided that 5am was time to be up for the day. Over time, I stopped waking up to baby cries at night, but I am now hyper-attuned to child noises from 5-7am.
  - koolba 7y ago
    > So I wonder if what you suggest would require some accomodation. E.g. have the 'on-call' parent sleep in the same room as the baby, and the other one can sleep in another room with the door closed. > Is this what you mean by saying that both parent need not be waken up? or are there some other methods that would help out with this? That's what I meant by "Assuming you have the space for it...". If the baby is in a separate room and there's space for a bed or mattress, whoever is "on-call" stays there and the other parent gets an uninterrupted nights sleep. Or the reverse and the "resting" parent goes and sleeps on the couch. 7-8 hours uninterrupted on a couch wins over repeated interruptions on a bed. Same system works if you have a grandma visiting to take over for a night. There's no merit badge given out for everyone being equally sleep deprived. It's just worse for everyone, including the baby. If the mother is directly breast feeding then likely she's going to be taking the heavier end of this load. If the baby is formula fed or she's pumping, there's more leeway to switch off.
digitallogic 7y ago
> I know I could only survive on this little sleep because I wasn't exercising. And exercise itself has a major influence on T levels.
wil421 7y ago
>I think this is one of the biggest taboos in Western society: Anything about a newborn/small child must be 100% positive This is absolute bullshit I’m about to have a child in the next 2 weeks and that’s not my experience. Pretty much all my friends and family with kids have been telling me about the “fun” and “positive” sleeping experience I’m about to have. They keep saying how the Nth child was terrible or didn’t sleep etc.

jbverschoor 7y ago

Thank oh for being honest. There’s actually a topic on a different forum that is exactly about the taboo’ed negative things about parenting. People refuse to see/acknowledge this, esp. women.

mffnbs 7y ago
People would respect you more if you kept the sexist bullshit to yourself. Or better yet, the reply that you will inevitably have to this comment? Don't post it and instead reflect on why one might view you as sexist, then attempt to change your behavior to reflect what you've learned.
- afiori 7y ago
  Not the same person, but it was not necessarily sexist. Not everyone is trained in the art of threading the line between offense and social justice. The same meaning could (possibly) have been written in SJW terms
sundvor 7y ago
Being a dad, whilst rewarding in its own rights, can also be hard AF. Throw in a diagnosis of ASD+ADHD with therapies etc that must be managed, and the pressures just sky rocketed. Managing his behaviour feels like an everlasting uphill battle. So much energy is drained, especially during meltdowns, causing frictions in the whole family. So in order to be able to look after him I also need to look after myself. Getting enough sleep, some decompression time, looking after my body and still performing well at work is an everlasting struggle. I don't expect people not in my situation to understand. At least I'm lucky in that it's "high functioning" we're talking about, even as much as a lot of people take objection to that term. But I know with effort he has every opportunity to thrive. Nonetheless, in a market where as an engineer you need to stay on top of new stuff constantly ... yep, it's tough. We do it because we must. Edit: Some additional thoughts. As difficult as it sometimes is, being a parent is also a source of great joy. The responsibilities truly grow you as a person, and you kind of learn to cope. It's not something that's all at once either, I mean, you take it day by day, and you just learn. As for work, for me it has helped that I'm truly passionate about what I'm doing, so have enjoyed learning about the new tech. I'm not saying I've got the same amount of talent, but it's amazing what persistence and a lot of deep dives into e.g Pluralsight can offer. As I grow older I'm more aware of my limitations, and picking the right horses (not just one) is über important. Picking the right employer is equally important; being up front about the situation can yield amazing results.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- dhimes 7y ago
  Some people grow. Others dump almost everything on their spouse and a deep resentment grows in the marriage. You envy the good times they have and the stories they have, but not their life as there is obviously a lot a pain at home. Kudos to you, it sounds like you are doing it right. Hang in there.
  - sundvor 7y ago
    Thanks, much appreciated. I've made lots of mistakes but keep trying to improve. Setting expectations for my new employer that I share the load for son's appointments, and finding one that accepted this, was probably relationship-saving decision making as such. We have it good in software in that we can work remotely, and flexible hours. Sure it comes at a certain cost ("always on") but for myself the benefits certainly outweigh drawbacks. Cheers!
stephencanon 7y ago
The people hit hardest by this are women. Society places much, much higher expectations on the wrt motherhood than it does for fathers. I know a huge number of women who love their kids but deeply mourn their lost independence and career opportunity they might have had without them, to say nothing of the profound physical impact of carrying a pregnancy. Women understand these issues really well, they just don’t feel comfortable talking about them with many men.
- belorn 7y ago
  That is a very simplistic view of the issue. Just as society places much higher expectation that mothers will take care the child, society also places a much higher expectation that fathers will continue to go to work. Fathers with interrupted 5hrs of combined sleep are expected to do the exact same workload and work performance as they did had when they got uninterrupted 8 or 9hrs of sleep. Talking about who got "hit hardest" is kind of pointless. Society expectation on fathers and mothers are formed from restricted gender roles. There are both women and men that feel extremely restricted from this. There is no objective "worse" fate to be either forced to go to work when you want to take care of the kids, or forced to take care of the kids when you want to go to work.
  - stephencanon 7y ago
    > There is no objective "worse" fate to be either forced to go to work when you want to take care of the kids, or forced to take care of the kids when you want to go to work. Yes, but that’s not what grandparent was talking about. They were writing specifically about the expectation that parents unconditionally think their children are the best thing that ever happened to them. The burden of this specific expectation falls much more heavily on mothers.
    - kareemm 7y ago
      You’re cherry picking and responding to the example. The broader point is this, and in my experience as a (male) parent it’s true: > Talking about who got "hit hardest" is kind of pointless. Society expectation on fathers and mothers are formed from restricted gender roles. There are both women and men that feel extremely restricted from this.

mockingbirdy 7y ago

I think you can enjoy some Louis CK on parenthood. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5jAUgJATAg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5jAUgJATAg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=166L3cE3zyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=166L3cE3zyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEJAOfHlREA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEJAOfHlREA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cubu_JeaV2g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cubu_JeaV2g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u27b7bAY1ro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u27b7bAY1ro

DrAwdeOccarim 7y ago

I haven't noticed the "anything about a newborn/small child must be 100% positive" in my group of friends, especially my work colleagues. I've been pretty straight forward about how hard the whole thing has been, especially adding a second child to the mix before the first one was 2 yo. I wouldn't recommend having a second child to anyone unless they really, really wanted it. It's hard af. Logarithmically harder than one.

jkestner 7y ago
Maybe the only constant is that every child is different. We had two close together, and it became a net positive about two years in, when they could keep each other occupied much of the time. And they'll have a built-in best friend. We talk about our personal perspective, but what do you wish your parents did for you?
- mkane848 7y ago
  That's assuming things go well. My two older siblings are, uh, let's just say they're not very close and dealing with them growing up was an experience in and of itself.
mleo 7y ago
I can see the social media aspect of presenting the perfect child persona, but it is BS. Going to three is exponentially harder. With two, one parent can usually manage both or worse each can manage one kid. Go to three and parents are outnumbered. And generally only two kids ever get along at one time, so there always the outlier. Even numbers are best it seems.
- m_coder 7y ago
  And moving to five children is another level. :) Parenting is what you do not a side project. Also the effects of parenting are more like keeping a good culture going and showing what are healthy ways of relating so that children can relate well to each other and enjoy being part of the family.
- 7y ago

matwood 7y ago

Reminds me of this article I saw the other day. https://www.newscientist.com/article/2213655-having-kids-makes-you-happier-but-only-when-they-move-out/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2213655-having-kids-mak... People with kids are happier than those without, only after their kids move out.

dhimes 7y ago
My last child moves out (to college) next week. We'll see. It's been pretty cool raising them, and now that they are young men it's fun and hilarious to get them all together. For a few years it was very stressful, and life always revolved around them (I was pretty active in their life). I expect that it'll be pretty different. Maybe I'll get some T back!

nradov 7y ago

Lack of exercise doesn't necessarily make it easier to survive sleep deprivation. It would be rather the opposite for most people since some moderate exercise tends to improve the quality of the limited sleep that you do get.

philwelch 7y ago
Exercise helps you sleep better, so if you don’t exercise, you already sleep like crap and the other stuff doesn’t make a difference.

koolba 7y ago

> When our 9 month old started to sleep through the night (at around 4-5 months), we'd get between 5-6 hours of sleep, which after the interrupted sleep of the previous 4 months, felt like a full night's sleep but this is sleep deprivation territory, specially given the fact that it was 7 days a week. Assuming you have the space for it, I never understood couples that insist on both parents being woken up every night by a newborn. Much better for everyone involved to trade off nightly so that the other person can get a full nights rest. I'm 99% certain that no baby cares that only one parent is being disturbed.

saganus 7y ago
I'm not a parent so my knowledge here is pretty scarce, but what I've understood from friends that have kids, is that when a baby wakes up, both parents wake up due to instinct (i.e. is the baby ok?). So I wonder if what you suggest would require some accomodation. E.g. have the 'on-call' parent sleep in the same room as the baby, and the other one can sleep in another room with the door closed. Is this what you mean by saying that both parent need not be waken up? or are there some other methods that would help out with this?
- phalangion 7y ago
  I think early on with a new baby, both parents wake up more due to novelty than instinct. When you're used to not having a crying child in the middle of the night, suddenly having one takes some adjustment. Since my wife nursed the kids, our arrangement was that she would be up with babies at night almost every time, and I would be up with them in the morning when they decided that 5am was time to be up for the day. Over time, I stopped waking up to baby cries at night, but I am now hyper-attuned to child noises from 5-7am.
- koolba 7y ago
  > So I wonder if what you suggest would require some accomodation. E.g. have the 'on-call' parent sleep in the same room as the baby, and the other one can sleep in another room with the door closed. > Is this what you mean by saying that both parent need not be waken up? or are there some other methods that would help out with this? That's what I meant by "Assuming you have the space for it...". If the baby is in a separate room and there's space for a bed or mattress, whoever is "on-call" stays there and the other parent gets an uninterrupted nights sleep. Or the reverse and the "resting" parent goes and sleeps on the couch. 7-8 hours uninterrupted on a couch wins over repeated interruptions on a bed. Same system works if you have a grandma visiting to take over for a night. There's no merit badge given out for everyone being equally sleep deprived. It's just worse for everyone, including the baby. If the mother is directly breast feeding then likely she's going to be taking the heavier end of this load. If the baby is formula fed or she's pumping, there's more leeway to switch off.

digitallogic 7y ago

> I know I could only survive on this little sleep because I wasn't exercising. And exercise itself has a major influence on T levels.

wil421 7y ago

>I think this is one of the biggest taboos in Western society: Anything about a newborn/small child must be 100% positive This is absolute bullshit I’m about to have a child in the next 2 weeks and that’s not my experience. Pretty much all my friends and family with kids have been telling me about the “fun” and “positive” sleeping experience I’m about to have. They keep saying how the Nth child was terrible or didn’t sleep etc.