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I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. Afte

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember worse times. For young Hong Kongers however, they didn't live during British rule. They were born into wealth, and now their own career prospects (like many millenials around the world) aren't great. So they protest. The unfortunate thing is that they'll fail. The finance industry is already planning to exit HK (too volatile), and China can kill the rest of their economy. Rich HKers will leave. In the end, the protests will only hurt HK. Occupy Wall Street didn't do anything, successive Ukrainian revolutions never lasted either. Ukraine is often cited: after the Orange Revolution, Yanukovych eventually came back to power. Poroshenko had his time, but lost in the biggest landslide in Ukraine's short history. Now Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe, they're not in the EU, they're not in Nato, they lost Crimea, Donbass is at war, and while Zelensky can't possibly be any worse, there's no clear sign things will get better.

schuke 7y ago
They protest not because they don't have money, but because Beijing is essentially taking their money away by eating into their legal system, which is ultimately what makes HK competitive.
- roboys 7y ago
  China decolonizing and unifying. Anyone aligned with the wrong incentives (undermining/sabotaging China) will get put-right shortly.
r3n 7y ago
> In the end, the protests will only hurt HK. I want to point out that Hong Kong people tried every way they can before this protest. They are aware the consequence.
- beatle_sauce 7y ago
  IMHO, the Chinese influence over the law system will damage HKs economy more than the protests in the long term. "Protests damaging HK" is a narrative that seems to be pushed in Chinese state media. I recommend: https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/08/hong-kong-for-international-business-stick-a-fork-in-it.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/08/hong-kong-for-internati...
Ozzie_osman 7y ago
I think you're right. I'm originally from Egypt and we see this discrepancy between generations. Older generation who lived through not just economic turmoil but political turmoil and war somehow totally OK with repressive (but stable) autocratic/military rule. Younger generation (myself included) care about civil liberties and tend to be anti-regime. (Really broad generalizations, of course, but generally true).
- tareqak 7y ago
  In my personal experience as a person of Bangladeshi origin, a similar outlook and generational divide exists concerning the role of a job/career and the expectations one has of it with respect to an individual's happiness. Update: added my origin to narrow the scope of my comment.
  - dragonsh 7y ago
    This article paints 1.4 billion people with a broad brush. I have met personally highly talented and bright people in China like in many other nations. So I feel this is really not fine if you try to say they don't understand. The reason people in China do not agree with Hong Kong protestors is first about nationalism, they think Hong Kong protestors are attacking China's sovereignty and independence, indeed many put slogans for the same and carried flags of other countries. Even if it might be 1-2% of the protestors, they were widely supported by local media and protestors by justifying their action. If Hong Kong protestors just followed the path of non violence without attacking China's sovereignty or accepting that they are first Chinese citizen and showing their discontent, it would have been different. Why Hong Kong is protesting is another reason, which still has roots in economic dissatisfaction.
    - cthalupa 7y ago
      >If Hong Kong protestors just followed the path of non violence without attacking China's sovereignty or accepting that they are first Chinese citizen and showing their discontent, it would have been different. I don't think it's clear that the protestors started the violence. Most reports seem to indicate otherwise. I also don't know that it's reasonable to expect people who were born and raised in HK when the governance was different and without mainland influence to accept that they should just allow the PRC to change their way of life and rule of law. And of course there is an economic aspect to it. But much of that is due to industries such as finance beginning to withdraw from HK - there is too much uncertainty there. Beijing has begun exerting influence long before they agreed to with the handover treaty, and there is a general fear that they will continue to accelerate this. I don't see any way that the PRC loses this, however. International observers aren't going to step in, and the rich in powerful in HK will simply leave, as they have been.
ryanobjc 7y ago
I guess it doesn't hurt that people who make too much rhetorical noise, tend to find themselves in all sorts of trouble. Hard to criticize in that circumstance! As you point out, if you are on the receiving end of "good fortune" you might have a lot of incentives at questioning that fortune.
markus_zhang 7y ago
Yeah I pretty much agree with you. It's very difficult to rule a large country as China and Chinese people generally respect that. Also like you said, the failure of those color revolutions just showed other people how important stable is.
- notyourday 7y ago
  I don't think it is correct. Chinese people truly are in a support of China's leaders and China's policies, just like Soviet people were in support of the Soviet policies. Had it not been the case, there would have been no government capable of stopping the rebellion: if one solider can control a 100 citizens (via say bullets) then in order to control 1.3 billion, China would need to give bullets to 130 million people so if 10% of them switch sides the other side gets 13 million people with bullets who aren't friendly to the party line. That's exactly how the USSR fell. Population stopped supporting the government.
  - markus_zhang 7y ago
    Yes it's true. Chinese government actually learned a lot from the Soviet government so that it survived. Plus Soviet was actually brought down by many of the high officials themselves.
  - whoevercares 7y ago
    Uh...you probably don’t know that Chineses have a nickname for the Russian ethnic group: the race of true fighters(战斗种族). On the other hand, Han Chinese is especially bad at rebellion, being conquered multiple times from the north in the history
    - unscaled 7y ago
      If we looked at the past though, the Han Chinese did rebel many times, both agains conquering (e.g. the Yuan and Qing) and native dynasties and these rebellions were often successful. When you think about it, even the current CCP regime started as a rebel army.
glbrew 7y ago
I'm not quite as pessimistic as you regarding HK and Ukraine. In the short run, yes, the powerful people (China, Putin) will win. In the long run, will Putin and his cronies continue to have the economic power to strong arm all of Ukraine? I highly doubt it. In the long run will the CPC continue to pull 100m's in poverty into wealth while protecting their failing water systems, soil systems, international good will? Again, I highly doubt it. I think the long term is in favor of HK and Ukraine, not against it. Edit: And regarding Occupy, it is often considered the most successful protest in modern Western history. Countless leaders and young people have seen it as a blueprint and guide to how to continue their struggle. I have seen dozens if not hundreds of videos on youtube that cite the enormous progress Occupy made on how to run a successful protest in the current era, and movements such as Extinction Rebellion are going to take those tactics to another level.
- Mikeb85 7y ago
  Long term, if Ukraine succeeds, it'll be because of pragmatic politicians like Zelensky. Not because of anti-Russian fervor. And if HK and China do eventually become liberal democracies, it'll be because of gradual change within the Chinese government. I'm personally very optimistic about their long term prospects, I just think history has taught us that violent revolution or sudden change usually leads to negative consequences in the short to mid term. There's more than enough examples in our lifetime. On the other hand, most of the economic gains, the reduction of poverty around the world, the economic development of Europe, Asia and Africa have all been done thanks to the rule of law, relative peace, investment, etc... Not due to revolution.
  - markus_zhang 7y ago
    Sensible man.
rolltiide 7y ago
> After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. This is why I get up in the morning, goals
Quekid5 7y ago
I think Sapolsky's Behave also had a good insight here (not his, just referenced) about the importance of the general culture of a region -- namely whether it's a Collectivist or Individualist. This simple dichotomy can explain a great many misunderstandings, talkings-past-each-other and (interestingly) quite a few differences in moral judgements.
- markus_zhang 7y ago
  Yes it's true. The more I live in western countries the less I argue with other people about these political things. Today might be the exception though...people are right to have their own views, there is no need to agree with each other...
  - Quekid5 7y ago
    You say "it's true" and yet you continue to say something completely tangential to what I said? I did not state any position on the matter at hand.
ausjke 7y ago
that makes sense, plus the brainwash on a daily basis also helped
ackbar03 7y ago
Totally agree and glad this comment is at the top, so many western commentators don't understand this. The Chinese people are aware they live in a autocratic regime but they didn't build up their country into an economic powerhouse by complaining about freedom of speech all day like western countries. They put their head down and got to work and made do with what they had. When ridiculous censorship rules like banning Winnie the pooh images were imposed they just made jokes about it instead of throwing a tantrum. That being said I concur it is possible that in the long term too much autocratic power to its rulers could lead to blowback the day the people at the top truly lose their minds but the ccp has generally been quite competent compared to what we might see at the white house (although I guess this is debatable). I think Hong Kong could learn a thing or two from the Chinese people
- nailer 7y ago
  I thought Chinese economic gain was due to the US government opening up relations with the Chinese government as a way of countering the Soviet Union. I'm not sure how much credit the Chinese Communist Party deserves for that.
  - liuliu 7y ago
    There are certain ironies. I don't think you can attribute the initial growth in 1980s to the U.S. investments. The initial growth in 1980s was largely driven by Hong Kong and Taiwan investments.
    - nailer 7y ago
      How did HK investment affect PRC? Through Shenzen becoming a commercial hub? What about TW? I'm not seeing the connection to the PRC there. Money wouldn't have flown into PRC (and it would have collapsed with the rest of the communism) if the US hadn't opened up investment.
- pimmen 7y ago
  I think this narrative is very misleading. They did complain a lot about how the CCP plunged the country into the largest famine in history because of their incompetence. It was this incompetence that led to the rise of Deng Xiaoping. Mao then launched the Cultural Revolution during which different factions in the CCP fought with each other rather than "keep their head down". At Tiananmen Square in 1976 millions of people, peasants and rich, shouted slogans attacking Mao and the Gang of Four. Deng Xiaoping then launched the economic miracle by reducing CCP involvement in the economy . To say that the history of modern China is a long, stable period where the people never spoke up and built a powerhouse economy by listening to the directives of the all knowing CCP is historical revisionism at best.
HighValuation 7y ago
Hong Kong is the once spoiled and now disowned brat of the United Kingdom. They had a taste of the rich white kid lifestyle while in foster care, and now as adults they must the reality in the mirror that their heritage is Chinese, not European. As a ex-resident of Shenzhen, the best way to describe the sentiment of the average HK protester is that they think of themselves as temporarily embarrassed white people. Sorry, just because the UK colonized you for a few years doesn't make you any more white or European than Zimbabwe. Hong Kong will fail, not because of insurmountable odds, but because they are delusional and their demands unreasonable. The goal posts have not stopped moving since the extradition bill, every attempt at mutual resolution is met with tantrums, fake news, and crocodile tears in front of the western media. Why do you think every protestors' sign is in broken English incorporating US political symbolism such as the US flag, pepe, and Trump? They don't give a shit about their tiny little 400 sq mile island where 7 million people have to live together like ants in 100 sq ft closets. What they really want is what everyone else in the world wants, but will not admit to: guaranteed asylum and US citizenship.
WatermelonApe 7y ago
Hong Kong is the once spoiled and now disowned brat of the United Kingdom. They had a taste of the rich white kid lifestyle while in foster care, and now as adults they must the reality in the mirror that their heritage is Chinese, not European. As a ex-resident of Shenzhen, the best way to describe the sentiment of the average HK protester is that they think of themselves as temporarily embarrassed white people. Sorry, just because the UK colonized you for a few years doesn't make you any more white or European than Zimbabwe. Hong Kong will fail, not because of insurmountable odds, but because they are delusional and their demands unreasonable. The goal posts have not stopped moving since the extradition bill, every attempt at mutual resolution is met with tantrums, fake news, and crocodile tears in front of the western media. Why do you think every protestors' sign is in broken English incorporating US political symbolism such as the US flag, pepe, and Trump? They don't give a shit about their tiny little 400 sq mile island where 7 million people have to live together like ants in 100 sq ft closets. What they really want is what everyone else in the world wants, but will not admit to: guaranteed asylum and US citizenship.
USpropaganda 7y ago
Hong Kong is the once spoiled and now disowned brat of the United Kingdom. They had a taste of the rich white kid lifestyle while in foster care, and now as adults they must the reality in the mirror that their heritage is Chinese, not European. As a ex-resident of Shenzhen, the best way to describe the sentiment of the average HK protester is that they think of themselves as temporarily embarrassed white people. Sorry, just because the UK colonized you for a few years doesn't make you any more white or European than Zimbabwe. Hong Kong will fail, not because of insurmountable odds, but because they are delusional and their demands unreasonable. The goal posts have not stopped moving since the extradition bill, every attempt at mutual resolution is met with tantrums, fake news, and crocodile tears in front of the western media. Why do you think every protestors' sign is in broken English incorporating US political symbolism such as the US flag, pepe, and Trump? They don't give a shit about their tiny little 400 sq mile island where 7 million people have to live together like ants in 100 sq ft closets. What they really want is what everyone else in the world wants, but will not admit to: guaranteed asylum and US citizenship.
morpheuskafka 7y ago
If the government can throw you in into a re-education camp at a snap of their fingers, that's not economic prosperity in my book. Better to be poor and free than economically sufficient at the pleasure and whim of a dictator. The entire concept of economic prosperity is meaningless outside a free market with due process protections. If the government can take away your prosperity for no reason at all, it's purely arbitrary and ephemeral whether or not you actually have it at any given moment.
- peteretep 7y ago
  > Better to be poor and free than economically sufficient at the pleasure and whim of a dictator Just how poor have you ever been?
  - seppin 7y ago
    How many years have you spent in jail as a political prisoner?
    - peteretep 7y ago
      The same amount as the vast majority of of people in China: 0
      - throwaway3e2tr 7y ago
        Ironically, President Xi was sent to a re-education camp when he was younger.
      - seppin 7y ago
        The millions in Xinjiang would like a word. Why do you spend your free time defending a brutal autocracy on the internet?
        peteretep 7y ago
        Because the truth is more important than making up lies to feel good about yourself? Also, let's talk about the "Land of the Free" for a moment... China's incarceration rate -- for crime -- is 118 per 100,000, for 1,649,804 total. Let's add the DOD claim that an extra 3m are held in re-education camps, and take that to 4.5m, which takes us to 308 per hundred thousand. The US figure is _655_, disproportionately poor people.
11thEarlOfMar 7y ago
I think the protesters will offer a different slant. From what I've read, they genuinely understand that what is at stake is their freedom to choose their own path. They've watched as China has gradually taken control of the governing body, the media, the financial management and the police. Each transpired more or less over a number of years, but each was also worrisome and that worry and anxiety pent up. The trigger for the current mass-action was not an economic event, it was a judicial one: A new law was proposed that would enable any court in China to charge and then extradite a Hong Kong resident without checks by Hong Kong's judges. Effectively, it would mean that Hong Kong's judicial system was subordinate to China's judicial system, and therefore, did not have a judicial system at all. There have been many foreboding events that portend the loss of liberty that Hong Kong residence fear. Liberty is what they are fighting to keep. Not wealth. Addendum: The Chinese judicial system is as one with the communist party. It does not operate the same basic law that Western countries, and tenuously Hong Kong, operate. Under China's judicial system, people literally disappear for months or more with no information provided to family or employer. Many times, they never return.
- PavlovsCat 7y ago
  More about the proposed law: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3012611/no-guarantee-fair-trial-hong-kong-extradition-bill https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3012611... One of the foreboding events before that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...
- Mikeb85 7y ago
  > From what I've read, they genuinely understand that what is at stake is their freedom to choose their own path. Unfortunately that's not what's at stake because they won't succeed; freedom isn't actually an option. They think it is, but they'll fail. > Liberty is what they are fighting to keep. Not wealth. That might be what they tell themselves, but I can guarantee that if all the HK youth got cushy finance jobs like the previous generation, these protests would have never happened. In absence of personal fulfilment, HK youth are searching for an identity. > The trigger for the current mass-action was not an economic event Yes, that was the trigger. However there are triggers, and underlying sentiment. Remember the Umbrella Revolution was a thing only a few years before. For the record, I'm not saying that Hong Kongers are wrong for protesting or wanting freedom. I'm just saying they'll fail, and the consequences won't be pretty.
jdietrich 7y ago
>when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom It's more than that. Back in the 70s, Westerners could very easily make the case that the USSR was corrupt, inefficient, hopelessly backwards and fundamentally organised in the interests of the state rather than the people. The evidence was abundant, even to Soviet citizens; any possible defence of the Soviet system was predicated on blind ideological faith or a tapestry of lies. Contemporary China is a long way from perfect, but a Chinese citizen could quite legitimately make the case that their system is superior to Western democracy on a pragmatic level. There are hundreds of millions of Chinese people who grew up in squalid shacks with no running water but now have a lifestyle that is recognisably middle class. They're on the tail end of the longest and fastest period of economic growth in human history and they're still growing - we can quibble about the percentages, but their GDP growth figures are still spectacular. While many Westerners are struggling with homelessness due to a chronic shortage of housing, Western newspapers are writing about China facing a crisis due to building too many homes. We're not talking about North Korea, we're talking about a political system that can be legitimately defended. It's not whataboutery for Chinese people to point out the manifold problems facing many Western democracies right now - there are advantages to democracy, there are advantages to Communism with Chinese Characteristics and there's no prima facie case for the superiority of either that relies solely on pragmatism rather than ideology. If Westerners want to promote democracy in China, their arguments will need to get a whole lot more sophisticated. Why is political and social liberty really so valuable? Why are the rights of the individual more fundamental than the rights of society as a whole? Why should troublemakers be allowed to destabilize society with impunity? Given the current political climate, finding better answers to those questions might also prove rather valuable domestically.
- peteretep 7y ago
  > but a Chinese citizen could quite legitimately make the case that their system is superior to Western democracy on a pragmatic level It is even easier to look at India, where the putative democracy the country has has not led to any kind of economic miracle for the poor.
  - pas 7y ago
yardie 7y ago
> when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. I consider the 2 to be intertwined. If you are not free to pursue a better way of life, economic circumstances matter very little. The Arab Spring was sparked by a Tunisian street vendor having all his possessions confiscated by the local police. Out of frustration he set himself on fire. Authoritarian regimes are rarely fair and are not particularly interested in the financial well being of the population. > The finance industry is already planning to exit HK (too volatile), and China can kill the rest of their economy. Businesses aren't leaving HK because of the volatility, they are leaving HK because Beijing is choosing the winners and losers. And they have decided that Beijing and Shanghai will be the financial capitals.
- age_of_stone 7y ago
  "Authoritarian regimes are rarely fair and are not particularly interested in the financial well being of the population." if you think Chinese government is authoritarian, then it is an exception coz it does care and try its best to improve the financial well being of the population. and it is the social contract between China government and its people. you need to realize that even "authoritarian" governments are quite different.
  - pas 7y ago
    sure, oppressive regimes usually favor the "people". in this case if you are Han Chinese and don't have any strange ideas (eg Falun Gong, democracy, liberalism), then you can get ahead pretty well. Otherwise not so much. See Xinjiang, Tibet, and so on.
    - age_of_stone 7y ago
      believe or not, people in Xingjing and Tibet used to have more rights than Han Chinese. for example, they were allowed to have more than one children while Han Chinese were strictly not allowed the second child. it's much easier for Uighur and Tibetan students to go to prestigious colleges with lower scores. and so on. you name it. the government did that in hope of country unity.
avocado4 7y ago
You're right about the Chinese having lives through an economic miracle. But it's important to remember that the miracle was in large due to China's liberalization and integration into global markets under D Xiaoping, J Zemin, and H Jintao. Xi Jinping decided he didn't like the order, made himself an emperor, embraced extreme race-based mercantilistic nationalism and is hell bent on destroying the liberal world order which lifted millions out of poverty in the first place.
khc 7y ago
"For young Hong Kongers however, they didn't live during British rule. They were born into wealth, and now their own career prospects (like many millenials around the world) aren't great. So they protest." Almost everything in these sentences are wrong. It's not just the young people who are protesting in Hong Kong, and most people in Hong Kong have never been born into wealth. There's a great divide between the wealthy and the poor and that's always been the case even in British time. Source: I was born in Hong Kong 30+ years ago and our family of 4 shared a bunk bed in a room that's probably not much bigger than 100sqft
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Mikeb85 7y ago
  Relative wealth then. HK has long had a GDP per capita on par with western nations. Versus China which has had a GDP per capita on par with developing nations until fairly recently.
  - dogma1138 7y ago
    Have you been to HK? The level of inequality there is staggering and the cost of living is much higher than most western countries, including things such as rent. You think SV valley rents are bat shit crazy? Take a look at HK real estate listings.
    - mitfahrener 7y ago
      That doesn't seem to be mainland/CCP's fault. The big real estate developers (the Lee, Kwoks families, etc) owns much of the properties. Why is mainland China the target for inequality and housing issue to blame? I have no stake in this fight, just curious.
      - dogma1138 7y ago
        No one blamed mainland here but I have a very strong suspicion that you have stake in this fight given that your entire 5 months comment history here is about China related topics.
germainelol 7y ago
"For young Hong Kongers however, they didn't live during British rule. They were born into wealth, and now their own career prospects (like many millenials around the world) aren't great. So they protest." Everything here is just wrong...Are the elder citizens also protesting? Yes. Were today's young protestors born into wealth? No. Are they protesting their career prospects? No. Are they protesting for their human rights? Yes.
dialpennteller 7y ago
>Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle The so called 'economic miracle' fallacy only works if you ignore that it was the CCP who crippled the economic development of China. Loosening your grip upon your victim's neck is not the same as performing the Heimlich maneuver. It doesn't make you a qualified doctor. The 'economic miracle' fallacy presents the strangler as the savior. If we can agree that the Great Leap Forward was a regressive measure, then what of the One Child Policy? Is this not regressive and changing the terms of success? If you can not create positive economic outcomes for the majority of your population, shrinking your population is the same as moving the goal posts. Ultimately it was not central planning which advanced the economic circumstances of Chinese people. It was the individual acts of citizens.
- Barrin92 7y ago
  >Ultimately it was not central planning which advanced the economic circumstances of Chinese people. It was the individual acts of citizens. Given the large disparity between China and other developing countries, yes the government from the 80s onwards has played a significant role in accelerating the development of the country. The alternative conclusion would be that individual citizens of the rest of the world are somehow significantly less capable than the Chinese, which strikes me as a odd conclusion. And the one child policy definitely had a positive effect on the development of the country. It effectively kickstarted a middle class by enabling parents to funnel resources into a single child.
rdlecler1 7y ago
>I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Economic concerns elected Trump.
- Nasrudith 7y ago
  Except that is wrong. The average Trump voter had more money and assets. Disproportionate wrong-headed electoral college are what got him elected - he lost by 13 million votes!
  - rdlecler1 7y ago
    You can still have economic concerns whether you are poor or wealthy. This is going to be the biggest driver of a presidential election: who is going to make me better off.
  - RightMillennial 7y ago
    You're off by an order of magnitude. Trump received 62.98 m votes while Clinton received 65.85 m. That's a difference of 2.87 m votes not 13 million. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidentia...)
    - Nasrudith 7y ago
      Ah I mixes it up with the bizzare 13 million illegal immigrant Hillary voters claims - assuming that was the loss margin he was trying to delegitimize.
sadjflk 7y ago
>The finance industry is already planning to exit HK (too volatile) They have been saying this since 1997 and I have yet to see it happen. In order to have a functioning finance industry, you need people with education and a willingness to move. Bankers won't move to China because a) personal risk b) no banker I know actually likes staying in China (they always fly back over the weekends) and c) 60% tax rate. And people just don't trust the legal system there. And Hong Kong is the next closest things. The only bankers that I have seen move from HK to China is when they pay them 10x the salary. Those are usually family offices with private equity money. It just isn't sustainable to do. Also, Hong Kong provides a lot of financial benefits for mainland Chinese companies. That's why there are so many shell companies in Hong Kong. All those benefits will evaporate if moved elsewhere. Even Singapore is 3-5x more difficult for a Mainlander to open a company. Added to the fact Mainlanders have no sway on the Singaporean government and have a history of cracking down hard on criminals, they are much more reluctant to swap HK for Singapore. All this talk about the financial industry in HK going down is just wishful thinking. Even Mainlanders are logical when it comes down to business. They won't shot themselves in the foot. That's why they have been showing restrain. It's not because they are afraid of another Tiananmen Sqaure. It's because they are looking at their wallets. How much damage it would do to their own companies.
southerndrift 7y ago
>Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. I just want to point out that WW2 was fought with horses[1]. It's not like the West has always been fully industrialized. The development may appear as a miracle to the people, but it is not out of ordinary. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_in_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_in_World_War_II
tibbydudeza 7y ago
I beg to differ here , it does not quite work when you have an opulent upper class and the rest will start to wonder why they are in that situation. This is what happened in South Africa and in also France as it does not take much to figure out that political freedom is required to make a fundamental change. I think in China the ruling party elite seemingly were not so much different from the peasants in the beginning and everybody lives improved overall as they adopted Mao's two systems approach.
standardcitizen 7y ago
Seems like you’ve never been to Hong Kong or merely stayed in Hong Kong Island or SoHo.... go outside those areas people live in some bad conditions. If fact, many fishing villages use steel sheets for housing. Take a tour outside the shopping district or the high end business district. Having lived in both places, it’s clear why their school books repeatly give opinion rather than statements.
standardcitizen 7y ago
Also your points seem to be protest don’t do anything...... so just keep allowing someone in powerful to act however they wish... I’m sure Hilter would have loved That...: also let’s not forget about the color revolution, seem to do a lot as well. But hey if we all cherry pick, we can see the world our way rather than reality.
PunchTornado 7y ago
a lot of lies in these paragraphs, like Ukraine being the poorest country in Europe.
mcv 7y ago
> "I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom." While this is true, I think those improved economic circumstances will eventually create a need for more political freedom. Chinese people already make occasional demands of their government, and that will only become more common. I think that as China grows more prosperous, it will eventually also have to become more free.
csomar 7y ago
> The finance industry is already planning to exit HK (too volatile), and China can kill the rest of their economy. Rich HKers will leave. What makes you certain of that? HK did attract more billionaires/rich people in the last few years despite the volatility.
helge9210 7y ago
Ukrainian revolutions (2004 and 2013) reached their goals: non-rigged democratic elections. As for lost Crimea: with Yanukovich still in power whole southern and eastern part of country would be lost and own army would fight resistance and help Russian invasion.
GC007 7y ago
You are completely missing the point of the protests. The HK bar association was one of the first to take to the streets back in May. The protests are about keeping the judicial system free from outside influences. HK is one of the last great neutral territories left in the world thats outside of American influence. Might I remind you almost no western country has extradition treaties with Mainland China. Even Taiwan has said back in May to cancel the Bill as it does not need the extradition of the murder suspect that started the whole bill. This is about keeping HK neutral so more Snowdens and political refugees can have a place to go. But you think this is just about $$$ truly sad.
thatfrenchguy 7y ago
> Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember worse times. For young Hong Kongers however, they didn't live during British rule. They were born into wealth, and now their own career prospects (like many millenials around the world) aren't great. So they protest. ... And their kids will probably look at their own situation being worse than their parents and protests in response.
ambyra 7y ago
This person believes what he wrote and is not a pawn of the chinese government.

schuke 7y ago

They protest not because they don't have money, but because Beijing is essentially taking their money away by eating into their legal system, which is ultimately what makes HK competitive.

roboys 7y ago
China decolonizing and unifying. Anyone aligned with the wrong incentives (undermining/sabotaging China) will get put-right shortly.

r3n 7y ago

> In the end, the protests will only hurt HK. I want to point out that Hong Kong people tried every way they can before this protest. They are aware the consequence.

beatle_sauce 7y ago
IMHO, the Chinese influence over the law system will damage HKs economy more than the protests in the long term. "Protests damaging HK" is a narrative that seems to be pushed in Chinese state media. I recommend: https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/08/hong-kong-for-international-business-stick-a-fork-in-it.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/08/hong-kong-for-internati...

Ozzie_osman 7y ago

I think you're right. I'm originally from Egypt and we see this discrepancy between generations. Older generation who lived through not just economic turmoil but political turmoil and war somehow totally OK with repressive (but stable) autocratic/military rule. Younger generation (myself included) care about civil liberties and tend to be anti-regime. (Really broad generalizations, of course, but generally true).

tareqak 7y ago
In my personal experience as a person of Bangladeshi origin, a similar outlook and generational divide exists concerning the role of a job/career and the expectations one has of it with respect to an individual's happiness. Update: added my origin to narrow the scope of my comment.
- dragonsh 7y ago
  This article paints 1.4 billion people with a broad brush. I have met personally highly talented and bright people in China like in many other nations. So I feel this is really not fine if you try to say they don't understand. The reason people in China do not agree with Hong Kong protestors is first about nationalism, they think Hong Kong protestors are attacking China's sovereignty and independence, indeed many put slogans for the same and carried flags of other countries. Even if it might be 1-2% of the protestors, they were widely supported by local media and protestors by justifying their action. If Hong Kong protestors just followed the path of non violence without attacking China's sovereignty or accepting that they are first Chinese citizen and showing their discontent, it would have been different. Why Hong Kong is protesting is another reason, which still has roots in economic dissatisfaction.
  - cthalupa 7y ago
    >If Hong Kong protestors just followed the path of non violence without attacking China's sovereignty or accepting that they are first Chinese citizen and showing their discontent, it would have been different. I don't think it's clear that the protestors started the violence. Most reports seem to indicate otherwise. I also don't know that it's reasonable to expect people who were born and raised in HK when the governance was different and without mainland influence to accept that they should just allow the PRC to change their way of life and rule of law. And of course there is an economic aspect to it. But much of that is due to industries such as finance beginning to withdraw from HK - there is too much uncertainty there. Beijing has begun exerting influence long before they agreed to with the handover treaty, and there is a general fear that they will continue to accelerate this. I don't see any way that the PRC loses this, however. International observers aren't going to step in, and the rich in powerful in HK will simply leave, as they have been.

ryanobjc 7y ago

I guess it doesn't hurt that people who make too much rhetorical noise, tend to find themselves in all sorts of trouble. Hard to criticize in that circumstance! As you point out, if you are on the receiving end of "good fortune" you might have a lot of incentives at questioning that fortune.

markus_zhang 7y ago

Yeah I pretty much agree with you. It's very difficult to rule a large country as China and Chinese people generally respect that. Also like you said, the failure of those color revolutions just showed other people how important stable is.

notyourday 7y ago
I don't think it is correct. Chinese people truly are in a support of China's leaders and China's policies, just like Soviet people were in support of the Soviet policies. Had it not been the case, there would have been no government capable of stopping the rebellion: if one solider can control a 100 citizens (via say bullets) then in order to control 1.3 billion, China would need to give bullets to 130 million people so if 10% of them switch sides the other side gets 13 million people with bullets who aren't friendly to the party line. That's exactly how the USSR fell. Population stopped supporting the government.
- markus_zhang 7y ago
  Yes it's true. Chinese government actually learned a lot from the Soviet government so that it survived. Plus Soviet was actually brought down by many of the high officials themselves.
- whoevercares 7y ago
  Uh...you probably don’t know that Chineses have a nickname for the Russian ethnic group: the race of true fighters(战斗种族). On the other hand, Han Chinese is especially bad at rebellion, being conquered multiple times from the north in the history
  - unscaled 7y ago
    If we looked at the past though, the Han Chinese did rebel many times, both agains conquering (e.g. the Yuan and Qing) and native dynasties and these rebellions were often successful. When you think about it, even the current CCP regime started as a rebel army.

glbrew 7y ago

I'm not quite as pessimistic as you regarding HK and Ukraine. In the short run, yes, the powerful people (China, Putin) will win. In the long run, will Putin and his cronies continue to have the economic power to strong arm all of Ukraine? I highly doubt it. In the long run will the CPC continue to pull 100m's in poverty into wealth while protecting their failing water systems, soil systems, international good will? Again, I highly doubt it. I think the long term is in favor of HK and Ukraine, not against it. Edit: And regarding Occupy, it is often considered the most successful protest in modern Western history. Countless leaders and young people have seen it as a blueprint and guide to how to continue their struggle. I have seen dozens if not hundreds of videos on youtube that cite the enormous progress Occupy made on how to run a successful protest in the current era, and movements such as Extinction Rebellion are going to take those tactics to another level.

Mikeb85 7y ago
Long term, if Ukraine succeeds, it'll be because of pragmatic politicians like Zelensky. Not because of anti-Russian fervor. And if HK and China do eventually become liberal democracies, it'll be because of gradual change within the Chinese government. I'm personally very optimistic about their long term prospects, I just think history has taught us that violent revolution or sudden change usually leads to negative consequences in the short to mid term. There's more than enough examples in our lifetime. On the other hand, most of the economic gains, the reduction of poverty around the world, the economic development of Europe, Asia and Africa have all been done thanks to the rule of law, relative peace, investment, etc... Not due to revolution.
- markus_zhang 7y ago
  Sensible man.

rolltiide 7y ago

> After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. This is why I get up in the morning, goals

Quekid5 7y ago

I think Sapolsky's Behave also had a good insight here (not his, just referenced) about the importance of the general culture of a region -- namely whether it's a Collectivist or Individualist. This simple dichotomy can explain a great many misunderstandings, talkings-past-each-other and (interestingly) quite a few differences in moral judgements.

markus_zhang 7y ago
Yes it's true. The more I live in western countries the less I argue with other people about these political things. Today might be the exception though...people are right to have their own views, there is no need to agree with each other...
- Quekid5 7y ago
  You say "it's true" and yet you continue to say something completely tangential to what I said? I did not state any position on the matter at hand.

ausjke 7y ago

that makes sense, plus the brainwash on a daily basis also helped

ackbar03 7y ago

Totally agree and glad this comment is at the top, so many western commentators don't understand this. The Chinese people are aware they live in a autocratic regime but they didn't build up their country into an economic powerhouse by complaining about freedom of speech all day like western countries. They put their head down and got to work and made do with what they had. When ridiculous censorship rules like banning Winnie the pooh images were imposed they just made jokes about it instead of throwing a tantrum. That being said I concur it is possible that in the long term too much autocratic power to its rulers could lead to blowback the day the people at the top truly lose their minds but the ccp has generally been quite competent compared to what we might see at the white house (although I guess this is debatable). I think Hong Kong could learn a thing or two from the Chinese people

nailer 7y ago
I thought Chinese economic gain was due to the US government opening up relations with the Chinese government as a way of countering the Soviet Union. I'm not sure how much credit the Chinese Communist Party deserves for that.
- liuliu 7y ago
  There are certain ironies. I don't think you can attribute the initial growth in 1980s to the U.S. investments. The initial growth in 1980s was largely driven by Hong Kong and Taiwan investments.
  - nailer 7y ago
    How did HK investment affect PRC? Through Shenzen becoming a commercial hub? What about TW? I'm not seeing the connection to the PRC there. Money wouldn't have flown into PRC (and it would have collapsed with the rest of the communism) if the US hadn't opened up investment.
pimmen 7y ago
I think this narrative is very misleading. They did complain a lot about how the CCP plunged the country into the largest famine in history because of their incompetence. It was this incompetence that led to the rise of Deng Xiaoping. Mao then launched the Cultural Revolution during which different factions in the CCP fought with each other rather than "keep their head down". At Tiananmen Square in 1976 millions of people, peasants and rich, shouted slogans attacking Mao and the Gang of Four. Deng Xiaoping then launched the economic miracle by reducing CCP involvement in the economy . To say that the history of modern China is a long, stable period where the people never spoke up and built a powerhouse economy by listening to the directives of the all knowing CCP is historical revisionism at best.

HighValuation 7y ago

Hong Kong is the once spoiled and now disowned brat of the United Kingdom. They had a taste of the rich white kid lifestyle while in foster care, and now as adults they must the reality in the mirror that their heritage is Chinese, not European. As a ex-resident of Shenzhen, the best way to describe the sentiment of the average HK protester is that they think of themselves as temporarily embarrassed white people. Sorry, just because the UK colonized you for a few years doesn't make you any more white or European than Zimbabwe. Hong Kong will fail, not because of insurmountable odds, but because they are delusional and their demands unreasonable. The goal posts have not stopped moving since the extradition bill, every attempt at mutual resolution is met with tantrums, fake news, and crocodile tears in front of the western media. Why do you think every protestors' sign is in broken English incorporating US political symbolism such as the US flag, pepe, and Trump? They don't give a shit about their tiny little 400 sq mile island where 7 million people have to live together like ants in 100 sq ft closets. What they really want is what everyone else in the world wants, but will not admit to: guaranteed asylum and US citizenship.

WatermelonApe 7y ago

USpropaganda 7y ago

morpheuskafka 7y ago

If the government can throw you in into a re-education camp at a snap of their fingers, that's not economic prosperity in my book. Better to be poor and free than economically sufficient at the pleasure and whim of a dictator. The entire concept of economic prosperity is meaningless outside a free market with due process protections. If the government can take away your prosperity for no reason at all, it's purely arbitrary and ephemeral whether or not you actually have it at any given moment.

peteretep 7y ago
> Better to be poor and free than economically sufficient at the pleasure and whim of a dictator Just how poor have you ever been?
- seppin 7y ago
  How many years have you spent in jail as a political prisoner?
  - peteretep 7y ago
    The same amount as the vast majority of of people in China: 0
    - throwaway3e2tr 7y ago
      Ironically, President Xi was sent to a re-education camp when he was younger.
    - seppin 7y ago
      The millions in Xinjiang would like a word. Why do you spend your free time defending a brutal autocracy on the internet?
      - peteretep 7y ago
        Because the truth is more important than making up lies to feel good about yourself? Also, let's talk about the "Land of the Free" for a moment... China's incarceration rate -- for crime -- is 118 per 100,000, for 1,649,804 total. Let's add the DOD claim that an extra 3m are held in re-education camps, and take that to 4.5m, which takes us to 308 per hundred thousand. The US figure is _655_, disproportionately poor people.

11thEarlOfMar 7y ago

I think the protesters will offer a different slant. From what I've read, they genuinely understand that what is at stake is their freedom to choose their own path. They've watched as China has gradually taken control of the governing body, the media, the financial management and the police. Each transpired more or less over a number of years, but each was also worrisome and that worry and anxiety pent up. The trigger for the current mass-action was not an economic event, it was a judicial one: A new law was proposed that would enable any court in China to charge and then extradite a Hong Kong resident without checks by Hong Kong's judges. Effectively, it would mean that Hong Kong's judicial system was subordinate to China's judicial system, and therefore, did not have a judicial system at all. There have been many foreboding events that portend the loss of liberty that Hong Kong residence fear. Liberty is what they are fighting to keep. Not wealth. Addendum: The Chinese judicial system is as one with the communist party. It does not operate the same basic law that Western countries, and tenuously Hong Kong, operate. Under China's judicial system, people literally disappear for months or more with no information provided to family or employer. Many times, they never return.

PavlovsCat 7y ago
More about the proposed law: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3012611/no-guarantee-fair-trial-hong-kong-extradition-bill https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3012611... One of the foreboding events before that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...
Mikeb85 7y ago
> From what I've read, they genuinely understand that what is at stake is their freedom to choose their own path. Unfortunately that's not what's at stake because they won't succeed; freedom isn't actually an option. They think it is, but they'll fail. > Liberty is what they are fighting to keep. Not wealth. That might be what they tell themselves, but I can guarantee that if all the HK youth got cushy finance jobs like the previous generation, these protests would have never happened. In absence of personal fulfilment, HK youth are searching for an identity. > The trigger for the current mass-action was not an economic event Yes, that was the trigger. However there are triggers, and underlying sentiment. Remember the Umbrella Revolution was a thing only a few years before. For the record, I'm not saying that Hong Kongers are wrong for protesting or wanting freedom. I'm just saying they'll fail, and the consequences won't be pretty.

jdietrich 7y ago

>when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom It's more than that. Back in the 70s, Westerners could very easily make the case that the USSR was corrupt, inefficient, hopelessly backwards and fundamentally organised in the interests of the state rather than the people. The evidence was abundant, even to Soviet citizens; any possible defence of the Soviet system was predicated on blind ideological faith or a tapestry of lies. Contemporary China is a long way from perfect, but a Chinese citizen could quite legitimately make the case that their system is superior to Western democracy on a pragmatic level. There are hundreds of millions of Chinese people who grew up in squalid shacks with no running water but now have a lifestyle that is recognisably middle class. They're on the tail end of the longest and fastest period of economic growth in human history and they're still growing - we can quibble about the percentages, but their GDP growth figures are still spectacular. While many Westerners are struggling with homelessness due to a chronic shortage of housing, Western newspapers are writing about China facing a crisis due to building too many homes. We're not talking about North Korea, we're talking about a political system that can be legitimately defended. It's not whataboutery for Chinese people to point out the manifold problems facing many Western democracies right now - there are advantages to democracy, there are advantages to Communism with Chinese Characteristics and there's no prima facie case for the superiority of either that relies solely on pragmatism rather than ideology. If Westerners want to promote democracy in China, their arguments will need to get a whole lot more sophisticated. Why is political and social liberty really so valuable? Why are the rights of the individual more fundamental than the rights of society as a whole? Why should troublemakers be allowed to destabilize society with impunity? Given the current political climate, finding better answers to those questions might also prove rather valuable domestically.

peteretep 7y ago
> but a Chinese citizen could quite legitimately make the case that their system is superior to Western democracy on a pragmatic level It is even easier to look at India, where the putative democracy the country has has not led to any kind of economic miracle for the poor.
- pas 7y ago

yardie 7y ago

> when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. I consider the 2 to be intertwined. If you are not free to pursue a better way of life, economic circumstances matter very little. The Arab Spring was sparked by a Tunisian street vendor having all his possessions confiscated by the local police. Out of frustration he set himself on fire. Authoritarian regimes are rarely fair and are not particularly interested in the financial well being of the population. > The finance industry is already planning to exit HK (too volatile), and China can kill the rest of their economy. Businesses aren't leaving HK because of the volatility, they are leaving HK because Beijing is choosing the winners and losers. And they have decided that Beijing and Shanghai will be the financial capitals.

age_of_stone 7y ago
"Authoritarian regimes are rarely fair and are not particularly interested in the financial well being of the population." if you think Chinese government is authoritarian, then it is an exception coz it does care and try its best to improve the financial well being of the population. and it is the social contract between China government and its people. you need to realize that even "authoritarian" governments are quite different.
- pas 7y ago
  sure, oppressive regimes usually favor the "people". in this case if you are Han Chinese and don't have any strange ideas (eg Falun Gong, democracy, liberalism), then you can get ahead pretty well. Otherwise not so much. See Xinjiang, Tibet, and so on.
  - age_of_stone 7y ago
    believe or not, people in Xingjing and Tibet used to have more rights than Han Chinese. for example, they were allowed to have more than one children while Han Chinese were strictly not allowed the second child. it's much easier for Uighur and Tibetan students to go to prestigious colleges with lower scores. and so on. you name it. the government did that in hope of country unity.

avocado4 7y ago

You're right about the Chinese having lives through an economic miracle. But it's important to remember that the miracle was in large due to China's liberalization and integration into global markets under D Xiaoping, J Zemin, and H Jintao. Xi Jinping decided he didn't like the order, made himself an emperor, embraced extreme race-based mercantilistic nationalism and is hell bent on destroying the liberal world order which lifted millions out of poverty in the first place.

khc 7y ago

"For young Hong Kongers however, they didn't live during British rule. They were born into wealth, and now their own career prospects (like many millenials around the world) aren't great. So they protest." Almost everything in these sentences are wrong. It's not just the young people who are protesting in Hong Kong, and most people in Hong Kong have never been born into wealth. There's a great divide between the wealthy and the poor and that's always been the case even in British time. Source: I was born in Hong Kong 30+ years ago and our family of 4 shared a bunk bed in a room that's probably not much bigger than 100sqft

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Mikeb85 7y ago
Relative wealth then. HK has long had a GDP per capita on par with western nations. Versus China which has had a GDP per capita on par with developing nations until fairly recently.
- dogma1138 7y ago
  Have you been to HK? The level of inequality there is staggering and the cost of living is much higher than most western countries, including things such as rent. You think SV valley rents are bat shit crazy? Take a look at HK real estate listings.
  - mitfahrener 7y ago
    That doesn't seem to be mainland/CCP's fault. The big real estate developers (the Lee, Kwoks families, etc) owns much of the properties. Why is mainland China the target for inequality and housing issue to blame? I have no stake in this fight, just curious.
    - dogma1138 7y ago
      No one blamed mainland here but I have a very strong suspicion that you have stake in this fight given that your entire 5 months comment history here is about China related topics.

germainelol 7y ago

"For young Hong Kongers however, they didn't live during British rule. They were born into wealth, and now their own career prospects (like many millenials around the world) aren't great. So they protest." Everything here is just wrong...Are the elder citizens also protesting? Yes. Were today's young protestors born into wealth? No. Are they protesting their career prospects? No. Are they protesting for their human rights? Yes.

dialpennteller 7y ago

>Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle The so called 'economic miracle' fallacy only works if you ignore that it was the CCP who crippled the economic development of China. Loosening your grip upon your victim's neck is not the same as performing the Heimlich maneuver. It doesn't make you a qualified doctor. The 'economic miracle' fallacy presents the strangler as the savior. If we can agree that the Great Leap Forward was a regressive measure, then what of the One Child Policy? Is this not regressive and changing the terms of success? If you can not create positive economic outcomes for the majority of your population, shrinking your population is the same as moving the goal posts. Ultimately it was not central planning which advanced the economic circumstances of Chinese people. It was the individual acts of citizens.

Barrin92 7y ago
>Ultimately it was not central planning which advanced the economic circumstances of Chinese people. It was the individual acts of citizens. Given the large disparity between China and other developing countries, yes the government from the 80s onwards has played a significant role in accelerating the development of the country. The alternative conclusion would be that individual citizens of the rest of the world are somehow significantly less capable than the Chinese, which strikes me as a odd conclusion. And the one child policy definitely had a positive effect on the development of the country. It effectively kickstarted a middle class by enabling parents to funnel resources into a single child.

rdlecler1 7y ago

>I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Economic concerns elected Trump.

Nasrudith 7y ago
Except that is wrong. The average Trump voter had more money and assets. Disproportionate wrong-headed electoral college are what got him elected - he lost by 13 million votes!
- rdlecler1 7y ago
  You can still have economic concerns whether you are poor or wealthy. This is going to be the biggest driver of a presidential election: who is going to make me better off.
- RightMillennial 7y ago
  You're off by an order of magnitude. Trump received 62.98 m votes while Clinton received 65.85 m. That's a difference of 2.87 m votes not 13 million. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidentia...)
  - Nasrudith 7y ago
    Ah I mixes it up with the bizzare 13 million illegal immigrant Hillary voters claims - assuming that was the loss margin he was trying to delegitimize.

sadjflk 7y ago

>The finance industry is already planning to exit HK (too volatile) They have been saying this since 1997 and I have yet to see it happen. In order to have a functioning finance industry, you need people with education and a willingness to move. Bankers won't move to China because a) personal risk b) no banker I know actually likes staying in China (they always fly back over the weekends) and c) 60% tax rate. And people just don't trust the legal system there. And Hong Kong is the next closest things. The only bankers that I have seen move from HK to China is when they pay them 10x the salary. Those are usually family offices with private equity money. It just isn't sustainable to do. Also, Hong Kong provides a lot of financial benefits for mainland Chinese companies. That's why there are so many shell companies in Hong Kong. All those benefits will evaporate if moved elsewhere. Even Singapore is 3-5x more difficult for a Mainlander to open a company. Added to the fact Mainlanders have no sway on the Singaporean government and have a history of cracking down hard on criminals, they are much more reluctant to swap HK for Singapore. All this talk about the financial industry in HK going down is just wishful thinking. Even Mainlanders are logical when it comes down to business. They won't shot themselves in the foot. That's why they have been showing restrain. It's not because they are afraid of another Tiananmen Sqaure. It's because they are looking at their wallets. How much damage it would do to their own companies.

southerndrift 7y ago

>Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. I just want to point out that WW2 was fought with horses[1]. It's not like the West has always been fully industrialized. The development may appear as a miracle to the people, but it is not out of ordinary. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_in_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_in_World_War_II

tibbydudeza 7y ago

I beg to differ here , it does not quite work when you have an opulent upper class and the rest will start to wonder why they are in that situation. This is what happened in South Africa and in also France as it does not take much to figure out that political freedom is required to make a fundamental change. I think in China the ruling party elite seemingly were not so much different from the peasants in the beginning and everybody lives improved overall as they adopted Mao's two systems approach.

standardcitizen 7y ago

Seems like you’ve never been to Hong Kong or merely stayed in Hong Kong Island or SoHo.... go outside those areas people live in some bad conditions. If fact, many fishing villages use steel sheets for housing. Take a tour outside the shopping district or the high end business district. Having lived in both places, it’s clear why their school books repeatly give opinion rather than statements.

standardcitizen 7y ago

Also your points seem to be protest don’t do anything...... so just keep allowing someone in powerful to act however they wish... I’m sure Hilter would have loved That...: also let’s not forget about the color revolution, seem to do a lot as well. But hey if we all cherry pick, we can see the world our way rather than reality.

PunchTornado 7y ago

a lot of lies in these paragraphs, like Ukraine being the poorest country in Europe.

mcv 7y ago

> "I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom." While this is true, I think those improved economic circumstances will eventually create a need for more political freedom. Chinese people already make occasional demands of their government, and that will only become more common. I think that as China grows more prosperous, it will eventually also have to become more free.

csomar 7y ago

> The finance industry is already planning to exit HK (too volatile), and China can kill the rest of their economy. Rich HKers will leave. What makes you certain of that? HK did attract more billionaires/rich people in the last few years despite the volatility.

helge9210 7y ago

Ukrainian revolutions (2004 and 2013) reached their goals: non-rigged democratic elections. As for lost Crimea: with Yanukovich still in power whole southern and eastern part of country would be lost and own army would fight resistance and help Russian invasion.

GC007 7y ago

You are completely missing the point of the protests. The HK bar association was one of the first to take to the streets back in May. The protests are about keeping the judicial system free from outside influences. HK is one of the last great neutral territories left in the world thats outside of American influence. Might I remind you almost no western country has extradition treaties with Mainland China. Even Taiwan has said back in May to cancel the Bill as it does not need the extradition of the murder suspect that started the whole bill. This is about keeping HK neutral so more Snowdens and political refugees can have a place to go. But you think this is just about $$$ truly sad.

thatfrenchguy 7y ago

> Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember worse times. For young Hong Kongers however, they didn't live during British rule. They were born into wealth, and now their own career prospects (like many millenials around the world) aren't great. So they protest. ... And their kids will probably look at their own situation being worse than their parents and protests in response.

ambyra 7y ago

This person believes what he wrote and is not a pawn of the chinese government.