8 ms·

Considering the bills for a condition like this, I'd be wondering if it's even worth it to go to the doctor. My life isn't worth the destitution visited on eve

Considering the bills for a condition like this, I'd be wondering if it's even worth it to go to the doctor. My life isn't worth the destitution visited on everyone I know necessary to keep me alive, and I can't imagine the moral calculus his family had to go through. I'm glad this guy could get the care needed to survive, and I wish him the very best in his recovery.

realshowbiz 7y ago
Yes. You have one life, and it’s worth living with or without money.
- 10122018 7y ago
  Spoken like somebody who has money. Do you have any idea how much pain and suffering a person can endure due to having no money? I don't think it's your place to say that person's life is worth living.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - merpnderp 7y ago
    Spoken like someone who's never lost someone they love. Do you have any idea how much pain and suffering a person can endure due to having lost someone? I don't think it's your place to say that a person's life isn't worth the money.
    - 10122018 7y ago
      My brother killed himself recently. So yes I do. And nowhere at all did I suggest "a person's life is not worth the money."
    - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
      You're attacking a strawman and being deliberately annoying.
      - merpnderp 7y ago
        I like to think of it as demonstrating why this type of argument is useless and counterproductive.
        PhasmaFelis 7y ago
        It's not working. That kind of childish parroting irritates even people who might otherwise agree with you.
  - Raphmedia 7y ago
    Growing up in total poverty, raised by a single mother who fought cancers and died twice on operating tables let me tell you one thing. Money is nothing. Poverty won't make you unhappy. Humans are good at finding new baselines. Poverty will simply become your new normal and the little things of life will still bring you joy. Seeing a loved one will still make you a smile. Life is worth living even without any ressources.
    - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
      > Poverty won't make you unhappy. I'm glad you and your family managed to beat the odds, but this is demonstrably false on a statistical level.
      - Raphmedia 7y ago
        From my experience, poverty do increase your sadness and make your life really harder. It yanks away a lot of control from you and your ability to exert your free will is reduced. It also comes with stress, especially in countries without social networks and safety nets. It won't however make your positive moments any less important. You will be more likely to suffer from mental health issues but that's statistics and they don't represent daily life of people accurately. If you are not suffering from something such as depression you will still find satisfaction from social encounters, from your community and your family. Unless living in a dangerous situation, your will still be able to feel content about your life. Love will still matter just as much. That being said, this is my experience living below the poverty line in Canada where healthcare and social programs exists.
    - 10122018 7y ago
      > Money is nothing. Poverty won't make you unhappy. I'm sure the millions of people living in poverty, dying of treatable diseases and starving to death right now are ecstatic about it. Or are we just pretending those people don't exist?
    - christiansakai 7y ago
      What do you mean by your mother died twice? Serious question
- rfrey 7y ago
  twoquestions seems more concerned about impoverishing everyone they love.
- fzeroracer 7y ago
  Is your life worth subjecting your family to a lifetime of debt? This is a serious question people ask themselves whenever they get sick. It's one no one should have to ask, but one many Americans have had to sincerely consider.
corry 7y ago
He's Canadian I believe; so while I'm not sure how his care in NYC would be billed, I think it would be still covered by OHIP (the public health insurance in Ontario Canada) or maybe travel insurance. Certainly all the care he received in Toronto would have been covered, assuming he's Canadian.
- corry 7y ago
  Don't want to spark a healthcare debate, but want to mention that I bet NONE of the non-US readers on HN would have given a single thought about the costs involved if this was happening in their countries. It's wild to me that the potential financial impact of this was part of the picture for many of the US people reading it (especially the startup founders who are probably without insurance right now, and this would leave absolutely financially ruined for life).
  - narcindin 7y ago
    "Don't want to spark a healthcare debate..." but you do want to get in your jabs under the pretense of "not starting a debate". How do I respond to this comment without "starting a debate"?
    - barbecue_sauce 7y ago
      How are these "jabs"?
    - corry 7y ago
      Wasn't intended to be a jab... just a reflection on my own reaction reading it. Up until reading the parent comment, not once did I think about the potential financial ruin of this family (whereas the comment suggested that that was one of the immediate thoughts in his/her mind). I personally find it interesting and worthy of discussion that different developed nations can have such different "risk profiles" for entrepreneurs. If anything, it makes me respect US founders even more... since when they set out (and presumably don't have insurance yet), they are risking far more (i.e. their family's long-term financial destitution) vs. a founder in a country with public healthcare. Not an expert on this, just my reflections.
udkl 7y ago
Can anyone make a good guess on how much this would have cost here in the US and if it had happened in Canada ?
- waterside81 7y ago
  If it had happened in Canada the cost is zero. We don’t have deductibles or anything like that for these sorts of surgeries. Drugs yes, operations no.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  In the US the cost must have been in the millions. I know people who ran up several million dollar bills during cancer treatment.
  - arisAlexis 7y ago
    do they deny you treatment if you don't have that kind of money?
    - Ididntdothis 7y ago
      I really don’t know. They usually say everybody gets treated but I would guess quality will suffer. Or you will get relaxed as quickly as possible.
      - Ididntdothis 7y ago
        “Released” not “relaxed”. You won’t be relaxed after getting the bill.
    - hanniabu 7y ago
      Sometimes they do. A person at my mom's work need an organ transplant, but they denied them the surgery because their finances didn't show they could afford it, let alone the medicine you need to take for life after that to fight off rejection.
    - 7y ago
AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
I entertain similar thoughts, though less out of lack of value for my own life than sheer stubborn spitefulness for the predatory health care industry in the US. Sure, i could exhaust all my money and I might live, but I think I might actually rather die just to keep it out of their grubby hands.
mnm1 7y ago
What? Go to the ER, save your life, then declare bankruptcy. That's the American way. What destitution on everyone you know? I don't understand what you mean. You think your family would be happier with you dead instead of bankrupt?

realshowbiz 7y ago

Yes. You have one life, and it’s worth living with or without money.

10122018 7y ago
Spoken like somebody who has money. Do you have any idea how much pain and suffering a person can endure due to having no money? I don't think it's your place to say that person's life is worth living.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- merpnderp 7y ago
  Spoken like someone who's never lost someone they love. Do you have any idea how much pain and suffering a person can endure due to having lost someone? I don't think it's your place to say that a person's life isn't worth the money.
  - 10122018 7y ago
    My brother killed himself recently. So yes I do. And nowhere at all did I suggest "a person's life is not worth the money."
  - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    You're attacking a strawman and being deliberately annoying.
    - merpnderp 7y ago
      I like to think of it as demonstrating why this type of argument is useless and counterproductive.
      - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
        It's not working. That kind of childish parroting irritates even people who might otherwise agree with you.
- Raphmedia 7y ago
  Growing up in total poverty, raised by a single mother who fought cancers and died twice on operating tables let me tell you one thing. Money is nothing. Poverty won't make you unhappy. Humans are good at finding new baselines. Poverty will simply become your new normal and the little things of life will still bring you joy. Seeing a loved one will still make you a smile. Life is worth living even without any ressources.
  - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    > Poverty won't make you unhappy. I'm glad you and your family managed to beat the odds, but this is demonstrably false on a statistical level.
    - Raphmedia 7y ago
      From my experience, poverty do increase your sadness and make your life really harder. It yanks away a lot of control from you and your ability to exert your free will is reduced. It also comes with stress, especially in countries without social networks and safety nets. It won't however make your positive moments any less important. You will be more likely to suffer from mental health issues but that's statistics and they don't represent daily life of people accurately. If you are not suffering from something such as depression you will still find satisfaction from social encounters, from your community and your family. Unless living in a dangerous situation, your will still be able to feel content about your life. Love will still matter just as much. That being said, this is my experience living below the poverty line in Canada where healthcare and social programs exists.
  - 10122018 7y ago
    > Money is nothing. Poverty won't make you unhappy. I'm sure the millions of people living in poverty, dying of treatable diseases and starving to death right now are ecstatic about it. Or are we just pretending those people don't exist?
  - christiansakai 7y ago
    What do you mean by your mother died twice? Serious question
rfrey 7y ago
twoquestions seems more concerned about impoverishing everyone they love.
fzeroracer 7y ago
Is your life worth subjecting your family to a lifetime of debt? This is a serious question people ask themselves whenever they get sick. It's one no one should have to ask, but one many Americans have had to sincerely consider.

corry 7y ago

He's Canadian I believe; so while I'm not sure how his care in NYC would be billed, I think it would be still covered by OHIP (the public health insurance in Ontario Canada) or maybe travel insurance. Certainly all the care he received in Toronto would have been covered, assuming he's Canadian.

corry 7y ago
Don't want to spark a healthcare debate, but want to mention that I bet NONE of the non-US readers on HN would have given a single thought about the costs involved if this was happening in their countries. It's wild to me that the potential financial impact of this was part of the picture for many of the US people reading it (especially the startup founders who are probably without insurance right now, and this would leave absolutely financially ruined for life).
- narcindin 7y ago
  "Don't want to spark a healthcare debate..." but you do want to get in your jabs under the pretense of "not starting a debate". How do I respond to this comment without "starting a debate"?
  - barbecue_sauce 7y ago
    How are these "jabs"?
  - corry 7y ago
    Wasn't intended to be a jab... just a reflection on my own reaction reading it. Up until reading the parent comment, not once did I think about the potential financial ruin of this family (whereas the comment suggested that that was one of the immediate thoughts in his/her mind). I personally find it interesting and worthy of discussion that different developed nations can have such different "risk profiles" for entrepreneurs. If anything, it makes me respect US founders even more... since when they set out (and presumably don't have insurance yet), they are risking far more (i.e. their family's long-term financial destitution) vs. a founder in a country with public healthcare. Not an expert on this, just my reflections.

udkl 7y ago

Can anyone make a good guess on how much this would have cost here in the US and if it had happened in Canada ?

waterside81 7y ago
If it had happened in Canada the cost is zero. We don’t have deductibles or anything like that for these sorts of surgeries. Drugs yes, operations no.
Ididntdothis 7y ago
In the US the cost must have been in the millions. I know people who ran up several million dollar bills during cancer treatment.
- arisAlexis 7y ago
  do they deny you treatment if you don't have that kind of money?
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    I really don’t know. They usually say everybody gets treated but I would guess quality will suffer. Or you will get relaxed as quickly as possible.
    - Ididntdothis 7y ago
      “Released” not “relaxed”. You won’t be relaxed after getting the bill.
  - hanniabu 7y ago
    Sometimes they do. A person at my mom's work need an organ transplant, but they denied them the surgery because their finances didn't show they could afford it, let alone the medicine you need to take for life after that to fight off rejection.
  - 7y ago

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago

I entertain similar thoughts, though less out of lack of value for my own life than sheer stubborn spitefulness for the predatory health care industry in the US. Sure, i could exhaust all my money and I might live, but I think I might actually rather die just to keep it out of their grubby hands.

mnm1 7y ago

What? Go to the ER, save your life, then declare bankruptcy. That's the American way. What destitution on everyone you know? I don't understand what you mean. You think your family would be happier with you dead instead of bankrupt?