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Open letter from an Android developer to the Google Play team

357 points by Sujan 7y ago

rladd 7y ago
Google is equally horrible about adwords (and probably most other customer service related issues). They terminated our adwords account saying that there was something wrong with the site it was advertising and giving a list of 12 extremely general things which might be the problem, none of which seemed to apply. They also provided no way to respond or get in touch with anyone at all. Their advice was "fix whatever you think may have been the problem and try again". This wasted a huge amount of time as we tried everything possible to fix the issue to no avail: they never said anything had been fixed and never sent more information. Finally I got a contact at Google. They looked at our account, said it seemed to be a glitch, and reenabled it. That's no way to do customer service and is one reason why I think Google should be broken up, if only so that each part is smaller and feels the need to be more accountable.
- diminoten 7y ago
  Breaking up Google has absolutely nothing to do with this problem, and is exclusively spiteful and childish. You can be better.
  - jarym 7y ago
    Google’s dominant position in the market is enabling it to abuse its position by treating customers unfairly and not as one might be treated if there was more competition. I don’t think it’s spiteful or childish to suggest breaking up a monopoly in these circumstances although I would say less drastic options should be tried first.
    - noarchy 7y ago
      >I don’t think it’s spiteful or childish to suggest breaking up a monopoly in these circumstances although I would say less drastic options should be tried first. You've shown your hand here, in a way, by suggesting that Google is a monopoly in this instance. Android devices can install apps via other sources, like F-Droid or Amazon, or even just by side loading. There's no denying that out of the box, most Android devices are setup to favour Google's Play Store, just as Amazon's Kindle devices are setup to favour Amazon's own store. Does this make them a monopoly? If so, what do we make of iOS?
      - kevingadd 7y ago
        The iOS app store is a monopoly. Are you arguing otherwise? There's no way to run an alternative store there. If it's really so easy to ship an alternative store on Android and Play Store isn't an artificial monopoly why are there no successful alternative stores? Is it because Google's is really the best possible store and thus a healthy, functioning market produces no competition? Are people really choosing to be stuck giving Google 30% of all sales and recurring revenue because Play Store is that good? They wouldn't rather use one of these other stores to save 30%?
        noarchy 7y ago
        >The iOS app store is a monopoly. Are you arguing otherwise? There's no way to run an alternative store there. I have to agree, it is a monopoly within the context of iOS devices. Apple works fairly hard to patch iOS in order to prevent the latest jailbreaks, thus removing a major avenue where a user would have the freedom to sideload the apps of their choosing. In Google's case, while I don't think the Play Store is a monopoly, it is clearly a dominant player on many Android devices around the world.
        deogeo 7y ago
        A better way of defining (near) monopolies is through market power [1]. It gets at the heart of the matter for which 'monopoly' is just a proxy - the ability of a company to shape the market, even if it has competitors. For example, Microsoft never once had monopoly on operating systems... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_power
        mflare 7y ago
        Although it is possible to distribute Android apps through other channels, you should not forget that for some applications you are still bound to Google. Due to the changes in Android Oreo regarding background services, you need Firebase Cloud Messaging (FCM) for a Messenger or other communication app to get the device out of Doze mode and to deliver push notifications without delay. If Google closes your account, you can still distribute the app through other stores, but FCM won't work anymore and there's no replacement for it.
    - diminoten 7y ago
      It's spiteful and childish because it's not a monopoly, and the only reason anyone wants to break up Google is to lash out. Build an iPhone app if you're so upset.
- ngold 7y ago
  An ad company middleman doesn't care about humans.
- lozenge 7y ago
  What was your spend? A $100/month customer's profits can easily be wiped out by a couple of customer service queries.
point78 7y ago
Google needs to be clear on what causes apps to be removed, and based on account history should be way more lenient on what would cause account termination... I.e. 4 years good standing 3 strikes, 5 years good standing 4 strikes, etc
- ImNotTheNSA 7y ago
  I think part of their reasoning is that if they publish the rulebook, then people will find ways to misuse the services in a roundabout way. It’s easier to find bugs in source material you can see, than that you cannot. I don’t agree with this, but I think it’s most likely the reasoning.
  - pnw_hazor 7y ago
    Also, they like to give special privileges to favored entities. Some of these special privileges would likely be counter to any published rules.
    - brokenmachine 7y ago
      True, I think this is likely the real reason.
      - tptacek 7y ago
        Because that sounds right, or because you have particularized knowledge to back that claim up?
        brokenmachine 7y ago
        Because it sounds right and seems like common-sense. I did put "I think" and "likely" in there so I would have thought it was obvious I was speculating. Do we need to ask everyone whether they have "particularized" knowledge for every comment they make?
        x0x0 7y ago
ziggity 7y ago
Without knowing more about the "sophisticated anti-piracy system" employed by the app author, it's hard to determine if Google's claim of malicious behaviour is valid. This could be something as simple as bytecode obfuscation, or something as complex as scraping every bit of personal information available through possibly-questionable means and sending to an insecure server. Copy protection schemes are notoriously user-hostile.
- kace91 7y ago
  Regardless of the reason, the fact that you can have your livelihood taken away without an explanation or human contact is pretty worrying.
  - kevingadd 7y ago
    Doesn't have to be taken away by Google either. They're extremely bad at processing DMCA notices, so a competitor or malicious teen can take you off the store for weeks. No recourse.
    - the_trapper 7y ago
      For this reason I would never trust my livelihood with the Play Store. Beer money, yes, paying my bills, hell no.
  - sneak 7y ago
    His livelihood was not taken away; he is still free to program for a trade or to sell his apps directly to users.
    - HillaryBriss 7y ago
      I guess you can say that. So ... maybe his investment of time and money in the android ecosystem has been taken away. And this should give pause to other such investors.
  - ggggtez 7y ago
bfrog 7y ago
Monopolies and walled gardens are wonderful, not. Anti consumer and anti competitive at every level. Google is like a black hole, there’s no escaping it.
- HillaryBriss 7y ago
  the only way to win is not to play at all
- microcolonel 7y ago
  They build the escape hatch right in to the platform. Epic games distributes their APK directly from their website, and so can you. It's fun being on the Play Store while it works for you, but ultimately your access to it is conditional, and somewhat arbitrary. At least you have the option though. Apple's platform is not like that.
_nickwhite 7y ago
Google is what, a 3/4 TRILLION dollar company, based on market cap! It's absolutely unfathomable that they have such a prolific reputation of non-customer service and inability to contact them. Any other company would suffer massive consequences with customer service that poor. What will it take for them to turn this around? Maybe they believe they are too big for this to matter?
- pdonis 7y ago
  > they have such a prolific reputation of non-customer service No, they don't, because Android developers and users are not Google's customers. Google gets no direct revenue from them so it has no incentive to provide the kind of customer service that would be expected for a paying customer. The only incentive they have is to provide whatever services will get them more revenue from their actual customers: ad purchasers.
  - zaksoup 7y ago
    I'm not sure why there are downvotes on this comment. It's pretty clear this is the case - what Google Products have dedicated account executives that give you their phone number? Ads and Cloud. The two direct-buy relationships you can have with Google. Even G Suite doesn't merit dedicated CSMs until you're fortune 100...
  - kevinyew 7y ago
    Except they get a cut of app sales and in app purchases, so this doesn't make any sense. Why would they bother running the Play Store at all if it didn't make them money?
    - pdonis 7y ago
      > they get a cut of app sales and in app purchases Yes, but that doesn't make developers their customers. It makes developers their business partners, and business partners in a hugely asymmetric relationship, since there are zillons of developers and would-be developers and only one of Google. Basically, an individual developer is negligible to them because there are always more where that one came from. So they have no incentive to handle particular edge cases with particular developers; they just remove that developer and another one takes their place. Most developers don't throw edge cases at them, so this strategy works fine for them.
HillaryBriss 7y ago
IMHO, an ethical course of action for Google employees is: 1. quit your job 2. apologize to the global community of users and developers 3. give half your money to a charity
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  Who are you to say what's ethical or not?
  - HillaryBriss 7y ago
    it's just my opinion. everybody has one.
  - OrgNet 7y ago
    a human being?
  - justin66 7y ago
    We have not yet delegated that task to machines. (You've asked an extraordinarily odd question. There's a context in which such a question might imply that the OP should look to God and religious texts for guidance rather than rely on their own reason, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you're not suggesting that the bible/Koran/Baghavad Gita/whatever offers words on the matter of Google employees and their relationship with their employer that supersede human judgement.)
    - cameronbrown 7y ago
      I'm more uncomfortable with the implication that Google employees need to apologise on behalf of their company and they're somehow complicit if they don't. Many people just want to do their 9-5 and leave.
      - HillaryBriss 7y ago
        > they're somehow complicit if they don't i've noticed over the last several years that thousands of Google employees at least seem to feel complicit for the corporation's choices (e.g. giving a big cash payout to someone who was suspected of sexual harassment, trying to start project dragonfly, working with the US DOD, etc). these employees protest, walk out, demand change. IMHO, these employees should also be critical of the poor customer service the OP documents. this sort of behavior hurts the public too. and Google seems committed to continuing it.
lvs 7y ago
Google simply doesn't have any interest in customer service. It's just not part of the culture. When new services launch, it appears as if Googlers are running some of the interactions to give a good first impression, but soon after the buzz dies down, there's no longer any incentive to continue doing so. They automate as much as possible, and outsource the rest to farms abroad. This pattern repeats across all Google products and services.
tylermenezes 7y ago
Guidebook, a 70+ person company, also appears to have just had their account banned as of yesterday morning. It's an app that tells you what's happening at conventions. Hard to see the bad faith there, but I bet the conventions they've signed contracts with this week will be very unhappy. The co-founder has taken to tweeting at his network to try to find a contact. Crazy to think a rogue algorithm might put 70 people out of work if he can't find someone quickly enough.
- aikah 7y ago
  It's the danger of building your entire business on someone else's platform. Now Android is a bit more open than Apple's App store since on can install third party apps outside Google Play, but I personally always got an answer from Apple, even if it took 3/4 weeks, every-time there was an issue with a deployed application. Google? Unless you know somebody there or you are a big shot it's impossible to contact them, and they don't want to talk to you anyway. And one can only go so far with Twitter shaming... Good luck to the OP, because he's going to wait a long time for an answer...
  - rkagerer 7y ago
    Yeah, it's about control. I tend to prefer approaches where I control the underlying platform. Unfortunately that's not always practical. Certainly not if you're marketing mobile apps to a large audience.
  - chx 7y ago
    > It's the danger of building your entire business on someone else's platform. This is so often repeated but by this logic noone should write mobile apps.
    - redwall_hp 7y ago
      It's pretty ludicrous that this is an accepted notion. App stores are anticompetitve practices at their finest. (Especially Apple's situation, where they're competing with offerings from companies like Amazon, and slapping them with 30% cuts that price them out.) We have two smartphone platforms that have basically full control over third party software. A company or individual that produces application layer software can hardly just come out with their own OS (and expect any amount of mass adoption). It's preposterous. This goes even deeper than the issues with the Microsoft investigations of the 90s, but the only difference is a lack of monopoly-level marketshare. Which is hardly a sufficient excuse to permit this kind of behavior.
rkagerer 7y ago
Google is starting to look like a case study in how not to do customer service.
- bigiain 7y ago
  "starting"??? You must be new here...
  - rkagerer 7y ago
    I knew someone would say that :-)
- baroffoos 7y ago
  I had an issue with some google phones at work where no one knew the password to them or whos phones at the company they belonged to so I performed a factory reset on them which I then discovered had caused them to go in to a theft protection mode which essentially bricks the device until the original users password is entered. I attempted to contact google but found that there is no way to do that unless the device was purchased within one year even though I had the original boxes and proof of purchase to show the devices are not stolen. The whole reset protection thing is a horrible system as well, I understand trying to stop theft but why didn't they make it so that when you reset it the device locks for a few days and keeps pinging back to the servers and if the original owner hasn't marked the device as lost/stolen within that time then it just unlocks. Since this event I had a family member call me up asking how to get their phone out of reset protection mode because they forgot their account password. I had to tell them their device is essentially a useless brick now.
- petepete 7y ago
  Google has customer service?
sandGorgon 7y ago
My developer account has been getting mails about "apps that are not compliant with permission requirements". The problem is that these are 3 year old, UNPUBLISHED apps. Turns out, you cannot delete old apps . You can only unpublish them. Google will still keep the app up if even one phone has the app installed. I wrote back saying that this is a years-old app that I no longer even have the source code to. The reply was "we can't do anything. You need to figure it out. Or else". After days of constant emailing, NOTHING HAPPENED. Finally I got a a notice my apps were deleted with a warning email. Here's my fear. I have two more apps like this. I'm pretty sure they are going to go through the same procedure. Is my main developer account going to be banned ?
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  Can you just publish an empty APK (after creating the project) up to all of them? Or is that not how this works?
  - njsubedi 7y ago
    They probably lost the signing key along with the source code. Without the signing key, there's no way to update the app. Otherwise, they would simply upload an empty app with the same package name.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    That's like the old trick sending a check for $0.0 to finaly get a computer to close an account with a sub cent negative balance.
  - sandGorgon 7y ago
    no. this is another violation. Its called the "minimum functionality rule" https://play.google.com/about/spam-min-functionality/min-functionality/ https://play.google.com/about/spam-min-functionality/min-fun...
- postsantum 7y ago
  >>Finally I got a a notice my apps were deleted with a warning email Suspended or removed?
megaremote 7y ago
Apple have also gotten rejection happy. But the good thing with Apple, is that they have a team of people, who will tell you why, and help you fix your issues. I have had those guys help me track down bugs, and suggest UI fixes. Apple have gotten better, and it seems Google have gotten worse.
woofie11 7y ago
This is the #1 reason I would never, ever, ever use the Google Cloud to build a serious business.
argaba 7y ago
This feels like an awfully familiar story. I do wonder if there aren't enough resources allocated at google to handle these types of cases. Instead we have them ending up on HN to reach some type of fix/closure from the google team.
ggggtez 7y ago
> dynamic bytecode loading from a local app resource I'll bet you 5 bucks it's this. Your "anti-piracy" is their "evading our malware analyzers". From the Terms of Service: "The following are explicitly prohibited: Apps or SDKs that download executable code, such as dex files or native code, from a source other than Google Play." Can't tell obviously if that's the violation, but at least it's a good bet.
- supermatt 7y ago
  its "a local app resource" - i.e. its not downloaded "from a source other than google play."
- c- 7y ago
  Given that the author chose to disclose it its a good bet they also know about it in terms of evading the detection tools available. Remember, two sides to every story.
dmitrybrant 7y ago
I'm the developer of a relatively popular app (50M+ on the Play Store) and have had very disappointing experiences with the Play Store, but in a rather opposite way from the OP: Once an app reaches a certain level of popularity, you begin to see "knock-off" apps, which are apps with a curiously similar name and icon (and screenshots and description), but which in fact don't do anything except blast the user with full-screen ads at every turn. It's literally just ads; they don't perform any actual function; they just exploit the SEO boost to serve ads to unsuspecting users. I have tried "reporting" these apps numerous times (there are dozens of them), but Google has done nothing at all to remove these apps or suspend the accounts of these bottom-feeding "developers". The only conclusion is that the ad revenue benefits Google as well as the bottom-feeders, so Google drags its feet in taking any action. I would bet that if these apps were doing something malicious without a financial incentive for Google, then Google would take them down in a heartbeat.
- njsubedi 7y ago
  +1 to this. I also have several apps in the Google Play Store. Unfortunately, the knock-off apps are all around our apps, sometimes ranking higher in popular keywords. Some even post a screenshot of our apps! Heck, some apps are so bad that they ruin the reputation of the entire niche (for example, a document scanner app). If the first few apps that a user downloads does not scan documents, he's naturally assuming that no apps can do it. Reporting those apps never worked, so I stopped reporting them. Instead, we now focus on improving our apps and hoping for the best.
  - ethbro 7y ago
    It's almost like the lack of a competitive market for app marketplaces results in suboptimal outcomes for consumers. But that'd be crazy talk...
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - pg_is_a_butt 7y ago
morpheuskafka 7y ago
Google seems to have missed the fact that they, unlike Apple, are not a monopoly. All it will take is for a few major players to start doing APK downloads OR someone to start an alternative, developer-friendly store with lower IAP margins, and they will quickly lose business.
Mathnerd314 7y ago
Previous people/companies getting banned: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19124324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19124324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18788450 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18788450 It seems to be that someone else does some shady activity and then some AI at Google over-generalizes and bans legitimate accounts. And the emails are the same 3 form emails that say nothing. I wonder if you can get decent support by walking into one of the Google campuses, or if you would get in trouble with security...
sjwright 7y ago
I keep hearing stories like this and I remain utterly bemused that the median narrative about Android vs iOS has barely changed in response. There's a lot to love about Android, but I think more people in the tech sector need to realise that their mental model of the phone marketplace has more to do with historical perception of Android being "hacker friendly" than the current realities. Android is open source! Oh wait— it's becoming more closed every release cycle, to the point that a pure AOSP experience is something only a determined geek would ever love. iOS and Android are now both blends of open and closed source, albeit in different ratios. Google's app store is developer friendly! Oh wait— approvals are now slower than Apple, they're banning developers with no explanation, yet the store is still full of crapware and scams. At least Apple's policies seem to have a tangible trade-off. Android gives customers hardware choices! Oh wait— the choice is between a cheap device that got its final software update five days after it shipped, a mid-tier device that might get updated next year, or a flagship which will probably get next year's major update and only security fixes thereafter. Android gives customers software choices! Oh wait— what's the current messaging platform that Google is pushing this month? Do you, the human reading this paragraph, really care if there are eight hundred or eight thousand camera apps in your phone's app store?
- mav3rick 7y ago
  Yes everyone should be rich enough to buy a 1000 dollar Apple phone. Also, you get to decide if I want more than one camera app or not ? Stop imposing your world view on others. Android made smartphones accessible to many people across the globe. You won't mention that would you ? Won't fit your narrative.
  - nominated1 7y ago
    > Yes everyone should be rich enough to buy a 1000 dollar Apple phone. I bought an iPhone 7 from Net10 about 5 months ago for $220 shipped. It requires a minimum $20 a month plan for 12 months before I can unlock it. About 2 years ago I got my mom an iPhone SE for $140 with similar plan/unlock. Both brand new. They’re not everyday prices and not the newest model but it is possible to go iOS without breaking the bank.
Causality1 7y ago
Reminds me of the issue an HN poster had several months ago trying to cancel his Google Fi subscription. Google just does not have the company culture to handle things out of the norm or the interest in developing one. They and their customers live and die on the word of software, which for me is unacceptable. My mission-critical providers all have a person in the loop somewhere, a human being to whom I can give our name and support account password, who can just reach right in and fix an issue no matter what the algorithm or the database says. Computers are just too goddamn stupid sometimes. Google doesn't do that. If they can't automate it they won't do it. That works fine for being a search engine. It doesn't work at all for being, for instance, a telephone service provider or an ISP.
winter_blue 7y ago
Although I'm generally not a big fan of regulation, this is one area where regulation might be appropriate. The two marketplaces run by Google and Apple are so large and substantial in their size and outsize economic influence that there should (ideally) be laws granting developers of apps on these platforms some set of rights, and some form of fair due process if they're accused of ToS violations. We'd have to either have Congress enact something (a long shot), or have individual states grant such protections to developers or companies based in the state. The most crucial state in this matter is likely Delaware, since many companies are incorporated there.
oscargrouch 7y ago
I think it´s funny with that much comments, none of them are really on the core issue here. Just imagine if Tim Berners-Lee banded together with Mark Andreessen to create a closed and centralized platform, were they could centrally control everything. Thats why i think the mobile phone plataforms are a real danger to a world were the information flows freely and were no government or company can control. People are giving to much power to those companies, and when they do what a lot of people know they would do, they just wip, and try to contact his digital lord to just have mercy. Dont neal, dont help them kill the spirit behind a world were people can access the things they want without any sort of centralized control. Its beyond me how many people are so worried about government controlling their freedom, but are ok with companies doing it. We do not need to accept this. The problem is in the app store model.. (they could create it, as long other could compete, but they could NEVER choose what you can access) and guess what, now our governments are too are weak to regulate them. They can spy on us, know what we are doing, help shady government agencies, control what you see, listen, access and in the end shape what you think (Remember all the mess the simple 'like' Facebook algorithm did to the world.. its too dumb. It reminds me "Donnie Darko" with that shady coaching of "everything should be on the hate-or-love axis"). The despotic government of the future for me is a bunch of big tech companies who control information, and the lives of all of us united to have a world were they will be all powerful and always relevant. People dont seem to know the dangers we are facing. This is very serious, and its a glimpse of the future. Think how much of what you understand as your right will be suddenly terminated by despotic tech companies who are too powerful to be controled or regulated. It´s even worse, if you think we are in the dawn of the AI and what a very powerful player can do to keep the control. You can think im exagerating, and i really hope im wrong, but its a real possibility, and we should not let this awful future be materialized because we did not see how this could be possible. And to help you figure it out, if you travelled back in time to tell your 2010 self how the world would be in 2019, do you think he would believe it? We are living in idiocracy all over the world, and we use to laugh to those sort of movies. (Dr. Strangelove will soon look a lot like a documentary of the modern days)
bArray 7y ago
Can we just get a proper Linux phone already? I could whip up a (rough) GUI for a WiFi phone in no time and all the software I want to use is already there - or could be developed relatively easily. Hell, Ubuntu's Gnome is almost a tablet OS anyway at this point, has relatively good drivers, stability, etc. The WiPhone is so unbelievably close to what I want [1] (+). I really wish it had a web browser though (which would likely require a beefier processor). I think the Pi compute module is asking to become a mobile device with the possibility of a good upgrade path too [2] (++). (+) Still waiting to ship it seems although I think they are acting in good faith. (++) The idea of using the DDR2 laptop RAM connector is genius IMO. They can also borrow the DDR3 and DDR4 connectors when the time comes for more pins. [1] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2103809433/wiphone-a-phone-for-hackers-and-makers https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2103809433/wiphone-a-ph... [2] https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspberry-pi-compute-module-new-product/ https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspberry-pi-compute-module...
- vfclists 7y ago
  Purism phone https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20555463 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20555463 You may have to wait for it to come down in price Pine Phone https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19592588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19592588
  - bArray 7y ago
    Thanks for the links! The Purism phone is a lot more than I would want to pay, but I imagine the trade-off there is for the polished experience. Part of the fun for me would be the hack-ability. The Pine phone on the other hand looks great (at ~$150), hopefully they do a better job than what they did with their netbooks (I believe they had issues with the keyboards and the displays had dead pixels). There's even talk about porting Ubuntu phone, which is awesome! My guess is that it's still a long way off though, if the project doesn't die in the meantime (as a lot of these open source projects do).
- f00zz 7y ago
  You can get a Fairphone 2 and install Ubuntu Touch on it: https://ubports.com/devices/promoted-devices https://ubports.com/devices/promoted-devices
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
robgibbons 7y ago
It still amazes me the extent of BS that developers will put up with to get their apps into users hands. The level of profit-driven gatekeeping exhibited by both Apple and Google is fundamentally unacceptable to me, and one of the many reasons I will likely never release an app for mobile. The web is still the last bastion of developer freedom, albeit not the platform users have been trained to use these days.
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tomohawk 7y ago
Open letter to FTC: please break up this monopoly and allow competition in this space again.
Hitton 7y ago
Recently there is so many horror stories about Google support, last week https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20711508 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20711508, now this... I'm really glad I don't depend on business with Google.
edandersen 7y ago
Whilst good for developers and probably bad for Microsoft (reduces app numbers), I haven't seen any automated, recompiled clones on the Windows App Store, likely due to the native compilation. Despite being .NET apps it's not just a case of running ILSpy or something to get the source.
axilmar 7y ago
multiple knock - offs = more adds for google, it's that simple.
m-p-3 7y ago
Like many said, at some point it's your livelihood that is one the line, and Google taking actions without providing any details is downright malicious, and I expect someone to get their financial life ruined. Sometimes, a deep-rooted issue is unfixable through technological or verbal mean, and litigation would be the only way to get your life back and I sure hope that Google will get hit at some point.

357 points by Sujan 7y ago

Google is equally horrible about adwords (and probably most other customer service related issues). They terminated our adwords account saying that there was something wrong with the site it was advertising and giving a list of 12 extremely general things which might be the problem, none of which seemed to apply. They also provided no way to respond or get in touch with anyone at all. Their advice was "fix whatever you think may have been the problem and try again". This wasted a huge amount of time as we tried everything possible to fix the issue to no avail: they never said anything had been fixed and never sent more information. Finally I got a contact at Google. They looked at our account, said it seemed to be a glitch, and reenabled it. That's no way to do customer service and is one reason why I think Google should be broken up, if only so that each part is smaller and feels the need to be more accountable.

diminoten 7y ago
Breaking up Google has absolutely nothing to do with this problem, and is exclusively spiteful and childish. You can be better.
- jarym 7y ago
  Google’s dominant position in the market is enabling it to abuse its position by treating customers unfairly and not as one might be treated if there was more competition. I don’t think it’s spiteful or childish to suggest breaking up a monopoly in these circumstances although I would say less drastic options should be tried first.
  - noarchy 7y ago
    >I don’t think it’s spiteful or childish to suggest breaking up a monopoly in these circumstances although I would say less drastic options should be tried first. You've shown your hand here, in a way, by suggesting that Google is a monopoly in this instance. Android devices can install apps via other sources, like F-Droid or Amazon, or even just by side loading. There's no denying that out of the box, most Android devices are setup to favour Google's Play Store, just as Amazon's Kindle devices are setup to favour Amazon's own store. Does this make them a monopoly? If so, what do we make of iOS?
    - kevingadd 7y ago
      The iOS app store is a monopoly. Are you arguing otherwise? There's no way to run an alternative store there. If it's really so easy to ship an alternative store on Android and Play Store isn't an artificial monopoly why are there no successful alternative stores? Is it because Google's is really the best possible store and thus a healthy, functioning market produces no competition? Are people really choosing to be stuck giving Google 30% of all sales and recurring revenue because Play Store is that good? They wouldn't rather use one of these other stores to save 30%?
      - noarchy 7y ago
        >The iOS app store is a monopoly. Are you arguing otherwise? There's no way to run an alternative store there. I have to agree, it is a monopoly within the context of iOS devices. Apple works fairly hard to patch iOS in order to prevent the latest jailbreaks, thus removing a major avenue where a user would have the freedom to sideload the apps of their choosing. In Google's case, while I don't think the Play Store is a monopoly, it is clearly a dominant player on many Android devices around the world.
        deogeo 7y ago
        A better way of defining (near) monopolies is through market power [1]. It gets at the heart of the matter for which 'monopoly' is just a proxy - the ability of a company to shape the market, even if it has competitors. For example, Microsoft never once had monopoly on operating systems... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_power
      - mflare 7y ago
        Although it is possible to distribute Android apps through other channels, you should not forget that for some applications you are still bound to Google. Due to the changes in Android Oreo regarding background services, you need Firebase Cloud Messaging (FCM) for a Messenger or other communication app to get the device out of Doze mode and to deliver push notifications without delay. If Google closes your account, you can still distribute the app through other stores, but FCM won't work anymore and there's no replacement for it.
  - diminoten 7y ago
    It's spiteful and childish because it's not a monopoly, and the only reason anyone wants to break up Google is to lash out. Build an iPhone app if you're so upset.
ngold 7y ago
An ad company middleman doesn't care about humans.
lozenge 7y ago
What was your spend? A $100/month customer's profits can easily be wiped out by a couple of customer service queries.

point78 7y ago

Google needs to be clear on what causes apps to be removed, and based on account history should be way more lenient on what would cause account termination... I.e. 4 years good standing 3 strikes, 5 years good standing 4 strikes, etc

ImNotTheNSA 7y ago
I think part of their reasoning is that if they publish the rulebook, then people will find ways to misuse the services in a roundabout way. It’s easier to find bugs in source material you can see, than that you cannot. I don’t agree with this, but I think it’s most likely the reasoning.
- pnw_hazor 7y ago
  Also, they like to give special privileges to favored entities. Some of these special privileges would likely be counter to any published rules.
  - brokenmachine 7y ago
    True, I think this is likely the real reason.
    - tptacek 7y ago
      Because that sounds right, or because you have particularized knowledge to back that claim up?
      - brokenmachine 7y ago
        Because it sounds right and seems like common-sense. I did put "I think" and "likely" in there so I would have thought it was obvious I was speculating. Do we need to ask everyone whether they have "particularized" knowledge for every comment they make?
      - x0x0 7y ago

ziggity 7y ago

Without knowing more about the "sophisticated anti-piracy system" employed by the app author, it's hard to determine if Google's claim of malicious behaviour is valid. This could be something as simple as bytecode obfuscation, or something as complex as scraping every bit of personal information available through possibly-questionable means and sending to an insecure server. Copy protection schemes are notoriously user-hostile.

kace91 7y ago
Regardless of the reason, the fact that you can have your livelihood taken away without an explanation or human contact is pretty worrying.
- kevingadd 7y ago
  Doesn't have to be taken away by Google either. They're extremely bad at processing DMCA notices, so a competitor or malicious teen can take you off the store for weeks. No recourse.
  - the_trapper 7y ago
    For this reason I would never trust my livelihood with the Play Store. Beer money, yes, paying my bills, hell no.
- sneak 7y ago
  His livelihood was not taken away; he is still free to program for a trade or to sell his apps directly to users.
  - HillaryBriss 7y ago
    I guess you can say that. So ... maybe his investment of time and money in the android ecosystem has been taken away. And this should give pause to other such investors.
- ggggtez 7y ago

bfrog 7y ago

Monopolies and walled gardens are wonderful, not. Anti consumer and anti competitive at every level. Google is like a black hole, there’s no escaping it.

HillaryBriss 7y ago
the only way to win is not to play at all
microcolonel 7y ago
They build the escape hatch right in to the platform. Epic games distributes their APK directly from their website, and so can you. It's fun being on the Play Store while it works for you, but ultimately your access to it is conditional, and somewhat arbitrary. At least you have the option though. Apple's platform is not like that.

_nickwhite 7y ago

Google is what, a 3/4 TRILLION dollar company, based on market cap! It's absolutely unfathomable that they have such a prolific reputation of non-customer service and inability to contact them. Any other company would suffer massive consequences with customer service that poor. What will it take for them to turn this around? Maybe they believe they are too big for this to matter?

pdonis 7y ago
> they have such a prolific reputation of non-customer service No, they don't, because Android developers and users are not Google's customers. Google gets no direct revenue from them so it has no incentive to provide the kind of customer service that would be expected for a paying customer. The only incentive they have is to provide whatever services will get them more revenue from their actual customers: ad purchasers.
- zaksoup 7y ago
  I'm not sure why there are downvotes on this comment. It's pretty clear this is the case - what Google Products have dedicated account executives that give you their phone number? Ads and Cloud. The two direct-buy relationships you can have with Google. Even G Suite doesn't merit dedicated CSMs until you're fortune 100...
- kevinyew 7y ago
  Except they get a cut of app sales and in app purchases, so this doesn't make any sense. Why would they bother running the Play Store at all if it didn't make them money?
  - pdonis 7y ago
    > they get a cut of app sales and in app purchases Yes, but that doesn't make developers their customers. It makes developers their business partners, and business partners in a hugely asymmetric relationship, since there are zillons of developers and would-be developers and only one of Google. Basically, an individual developer is negligible to them because there are always more where that one came from. So they have no incentive to handle particular edge cases with particular developers; they just remove that developer and another one takes their place. Most developers don't throw edge cases at them, so this strategy works fine for them.

HillaryBriss 7y ago

IMHO, an ethical course of action for Google employees is: 1. quit your job 2. apologize to the global community of users and developers 3. give half your money to a charity

cameronbrown 7y ago
Who are you to say what's ethical or not?
- HillaryBriss 7y ago
  it's just my opinion. everybody has one.
- OrgNet 7y ago
  a human being?
- justin66 7y ago
  We have not yet delegated that task to machines. (You've asked an extraordinarily odd question. There's a context in which such a question might imply that the OP should look to God and religious texts for guidance rather than rely on their own reason, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you're not suggesting that the bible/Koran/Baghavad Gita/whatever offers words on the matter of Google employees and their relationship with their employer that supersede human judgement.)
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    I'm more uncomfortable with the implication that Google employees need to apologise on behalf of their company and they're somehow complicit if they don't. Many people just want to do their 9-5 and leave.
    - HillaryBriss 7y ago
      > they're somehow complicit if they don't i've noticed over the last several years that thousands of Google employees at least seem to feel complicit for the corporation's choices (e.g. giving a big cash payout to someone who was suspected of sexual harassment, trying to start project dragonfly, working with the US DOD, etc). these employees protest, walk out, demand change. IMHO, these employees should also be critical of the poor customer service the OP documents. this sort of behavior hurts the public too. and Google seems committed to continuing it.

lvs 7y ago

Google simply doesn't have any interest in customer service. It's just not part of the culture. When new services launch, it appears as if Googlers are running some of the interactions to give a good first impression, but soon after the buzz dies down, there's no longer any incentive to continue doing so. They automate as much as possible, and outsource the rest to farms abroad. This pattern repeats across all Google products and services.

tylermenezes 7y ago

Guidebook, a 70+ person company, also appears to have just had their account banned as of yesterday morning. It's an app that tells you what's happening at conventions. Hard to see the bad faith there, but I bet the conventions they've signed contracts with this week will be very unhappy. The co-founder has taken to tweeting at his network to try to find a contact. Crazy to think a rogue algorithm might put 70 people out of work if he can't find someone quickly enough.

aikah 7y ago
It's the danger of building your entire business on someone else's platform. Now Android is a bit more open than Apple's App store since on can install third party apps outside Google Play, but I personally always got an answer from Apple, even if it took 3/4 weeks, every-time there was an issue with a deployed application. Google? Unless you know somebody there or you are a big shot it's impossible to contact them, and they don't want to talk to you anyway. And one can only go so far with Twitter shaming... Good luck to the OP, because he's going to wait a long time for an answer...
- rkagerer 7y ago
  Yeah, it's about control. I tend to prefer approaches where I control the underlying platform. Unfortunately that's not always practical. Certainly not if you're marketing mobile apps to a large audience.
- chx 7y ago
  > It's the danger of building your entire business on someone else's platform. This is so often repeated but by this logic noone should write mobile apps.
  - redwall_hp 7y ago
    It's pretty ludicrous that this is an accepted notion. App stores are anticompetitve practices at their finest. (Especially Apple's situation, where they're competing with offerings from companies like Amazon, and slapping them with 30% cuts that price them out.) We have two smartphone platforms that have basically full control over third party software. A company or individual that produces application layer software can hardly just come out with their own OS (and expect any amount of mass adoption). It's preposterous. This goes even deeper than the issues with the Microsoft investigations of the 90s, but the only difference is a lack of monopoly-level marketshare. Which is hardly a sufficient excuse to permit this kind of behavior.

rkagerer 7y ago

Google is starting to look like a case study in how not to do customer service.

bigiain 7y ago
"starting"??? You must be new here...
- rkagerer 7y ago
  I knew someone would say that :-)
baroffoos 7y ago
I had an issue with some google phones at work where no one knew the password to them or whos phones at the company they belonged to so I performed a factory reset on them which I then discovered had caused them to go in to a theft protection mode which essentially bricks the device until the original users password is entered. I attempted to contact google but found that there is no way to do that unless the device was purchased within one year even though I had the original boxes and proof of purchase to show the devices are not stolen. The whole reset protection thing is a horrible system as well, I understand trying to stop theft but why didn't they make it so that when you reset it the device locks for a few days and keeps pinging back to the servers and if the original owner hasn't marked the device as lost/stolen within that time then it just unlocks. Since this event I had a family member call me up asking how to get their phone out of reset protection mode because they forgot their account password. I had to tell them their device is essentially a useless brick now.
petepete 7y ago
Google has customer service?

sandGorgon 7y ago

My developer account has been getting mails about "apps that are not compliant with permission requirements". The problem is that these are 3 year old, UNPUBLISHED apps. Turns out, you cannot delete old apps . You can only unpublish them. Google will still keep the app up if even one phone has the app installed. I wrote back saying that this is a years-old app that I no longer even have the source code to. The reply was "we can't do anything. You need to figure it out. Or else". After days of constant emailing, NOTHING HAPPENED. Finally I got a a notice my apps were deleted with a warning email. Here's my fear. I have two more apps like this. I'm pretty sure they are going to go through the same procedure. Is my main developer account going to be banned ?

cameronbrown 7y ago
Can you just publish an empty APK (after creating the project) up to all of them? Or is that not how this works?
- njsubedi 7y ago
  They probably lost the signing key along with the source code. Without the signing key, there's no way to update the app. Otherwise, they would simply upload an empty app with the same package name.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  That's like the old trick sending a check for $0.0 to finaly get a computer to close an account with a sub cent negative balance.
- sandGorgon 7y ago
  no. this is another violation. Its called the "minimum functionality rule" https://play.google.com/about/spam-min-functionality/min-functionality/ https://play.google.com/about/spam-min-functionality/min-fun...
postsantum 7y ago
>>Finally I got a a notice my apps were deleted with a warning email Suspended or removed?

megaremote 7y ago

Apple have also gotten rejection happy. But the good thing with Apple, is that they have a team of people, who will tell you why, and help you fix your issues. I have had those guys help me track down bugs, and suggest UI fixes. Apple have gotten better, and it seems Google have gotten worse.

woofie11 7y ago

This is the #1 reason I would never, ever, ever use the Google Cloud to build a serious business.

argaba 7y ago

This feels like an awfully familiar story. I do wonder if there aren't enough resources allocated at google to handle these types of cases. Instead we have them ending up on HN to reach some type of fix/closure from the google team.

ggggtez 7y ago

> dynamic bytecode loading from a local app resource I'll bet you 5 bucks it's this. Your "anti-piracy" is their "evading our malware analyzers". From the Terms of Service: "The following are explicitly prohibited: Apps or SDKs that download executable code, such as dex files or native code, from a source other than Google Play." Can't tell obviously if that's the violation, but at least it's a good bet.

supermatt 7y ago
its "a local app resource" - i.e. its not downloaded "from a source other than google play."
c- 7y ago
Given that the author chose to disclose it its a good bet they also know about it in terms of evading the detection tools available. Remember, two sides to every story.

dmitrybrant 7y ago

I'm the developer of a relatively popular app (50M+ on the Play Store) and have had very disappointing experiences with the Play Store, but in a rather opposite way from the OP: Once an app reaches a certain level of popularity, you begin to see "knock-off" apps, which are apps with a curiously similar name and icon (and screenshots and description), but which in fact don't do anything except blast the user with full-screen ads at every turn. It's literally just ads; they don't perform any actual function; they just exploit the SEO boost to serve ads to unsuspecting users. I have tried "reporting" these apps numerous times (there are dozens of them), but Google has done nothing at all to remove these apps or suspend the accounts of these bottom-feeding "developers". The only conclusion is that the ad revenue benefits Google as well as the bottom-feeders, so Google drags its feet in taking any action. I would bet that if these apps were doing something malicious without a financial incentive for Google, then Google would take them down in a heartbeat.

njsubedi 7y ago
+1 to this. I also have several apps in the Google Play Store. Unfortunately, the knock-off apps are all around our apps, sometimes ranking higher in popular keywords. Some even post a screenshot of our apps! Heck, some apps are so bad that they ruin the reputation of the entire niche (for example, a document scanner app). If the first few apps that a user downloads does not scan documents, he's naturally assuming that no apps can do it. Reporting those apps never worked, so I stopped reporting them. Instead, we now focus on improving our apps and hoping for the best.
- ethbro 7y ago
  It's almost like the lack of a competitive market for app marketplaces results in suboptimal outcomes for consumers. But that'd be crazy talk...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - pg_is_a_butt 7y ago

morpheuskafka 7y ago

Google seems to have missed the fact that they, unlike Apple, are not a monopoly. All it will take is for a few major players to start doing APK downloads OR someone to start an alternative, developer-friendly store with lower IAP margins, and they will quickly lose business.

Mathnerd314 7y ago

Previous people/companies getting banned: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19124324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19124324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18788450 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18788450 It seems to be that someone else does some shady activity and then some AI at Google over-generalizes and bans legitimate accounts. And the emails are the same 3 form emails that say nothing. I wonder if you can get decent support by walking into one of the Google campuses, or if you would get in trouble with security...

sjwright 7y ago

I keep hearing stories like this and I remain utterly bemused that the median narrative about Android vs iOS has barely changed in response. There's a lot to love about Android, but I think more people in the tech sector need to realise that their mental model of the phone marketplace has more to do with historical perception of Android being "hacker friendly" than the current realities. Android is open source! Oh wait— it's becoming more closed every release cycle, to the point that a pure AOSP experience is something only a determined geek would ever love. iOS and Android are now both blends of open and closed source, albeit in different ratios. Google's app store is developer friendly! Oh wait— approvals are now slower than Apple, they're banning developers with no explanation, yet the store is still full of crapware and scams. At least Apple's policies seem to have a tangible trade-off. Android gives customers hardware choices! Oh wait— the choice is between a cheap device that got its final software update five days after it shipped, a mid-tier device that might get updated next year, or a flagship which will probably get next year's major update and only security fixes thereafter. Android gives customers software choices! Oh wait— what's the current messaging platform that Google is pushing this month? Do you, the human reading this paragraph, really care if there are eight hundred or eight thousand camera apps in your phone's app store?

mav3rick 7y ago
Yes everyone should be rich enough to buy a 1000 dollar Apple phone. Also, you get to decide if I want more than one camera app or not ? Stop imposing your world view on others. Android made smartphones accessible to many people across the globe. You won't mention that would you ? Won't fit your narrative.
- nominated1 7y ago
  > Yes everyone should be rich enough to buy a 1000 dollar Apple phone. I bought an iPhone 7 from Net10 about 5 months ago for $220 shipped. It requires a minimum $20 a month plan for 12 months before I can unlock it. About 2 years ago I got my mom an iPhone SE for $140 with similar plan/unlock. Both brand new. They’re not everyday prices and not the newest model but it is possible to go iOS without breaking the bank.

Causality1 7y ago

Reminds me of the issue an HN poster had several months ago trying to cancel his Google Fi subscription. Google just does not have the company culture to handle things out of the norm or the interest in developing one. They and their customers live and die on the word of software, which for me is unacceptable. My mission-critical providers all have a person in the loop somewhere, a human being to whom I can give our name and support account password, who can just reach right in and fix an issue no matter what the algorithm or the database says. Computers are just too goddamn stupid sometimes. Google doesn't do that. If they can't automate it they won't do it. That works fine for being a search engine. It doesn't work at all for being, for instance, a telephone service provider or an ISP.

winter_blue 7y ago

Although I'm generally not a big fan of regulation, this is one area where regulation might be appropriate. The two marketplaces run by Google and Apple are so large and substantial in their size and outsize economic influence that there should (ideally) be laws granting developers of apps on these platforms some set of rights, and some form of fair due process if they're accused of ToS violations. We'd have to either have Congress enact something (a long shot), or have individual states grant such protections to developers or companies based in the state. The most crucial state in this matter is likely Delaware, since many companies are incorporated there.

oscargrouch 7y ago

I think it´s funny with that much comments, none of them are really on the core issue here. Just imagine if Tim Berners-Lee banded together with Mark Andreessen to create a closed and centralized platform, were they could centrally control everything. Thats why i think the mobile phone plataforms are a real danger to a world were the information flows freely and were no government or company can control. People are giving to much power to those companies, and when they do what a lot of people know they would do, they just wip, and try to contact his digital lord to just have mercy. Dont neal, dont help them kill the spirit behind a world were people can access the things they want without any sort of centralized control. Its beyond me how many people are so worried about government controlling their freedom, but are ok with companies doing it. We do not need to accept this. The problem is in the app store model.. (they could create it, as long other could compete, but they could NEVER choose what you can access) and guess what, now our governments are too are weak to regulate them. They can spy on us, know what we are doing, help shady government agencies, control what you see, listen, access and in the end shape what you think (Remember all the mess the simple 'like' Facebook algorithm did to the world.. its too dumb. It reminds me "Donnie Darko" with that shady coaching of "everything should be on the hate-or-love axis"). The despotic government of the future for me is a bunch of big tech companies who control information, and the lives of all of us united to have a world were they will be all powerful and always relevant. People dont seem to know the dangers we are facing. This is very serious, and its a glimpse of the future. Think how much of what you understand as your right will be suddenly terminated by despotic tech companies who are too powerful to be controled or regulated. It´s even worse, if you think we are in the dawn of the AI and what a very powerful player can do to keep the control. You can think im exagerating, and i really hope im wrong, but its a real possibility, and we should not let this awful future be materialized because we did not see how this could be possible. And to help you figure it out, if you travelled back in time to tell your 2010 self how the world would be in 2019, do you think he would believe it? We are living in idiocracy all over the world, and we use to laugh to those sort of movies. (Dr. Strangelove will soon look a lot like a documentary of the modern days)

bArray 7y ago

Can we just get a proper Linux phone already? I could whip up a (rough) GUI for a WiFi phone in no time and all the software I want to use is already there - or could be developed relatively easily. Hell, Ubuntu's Gnome is almost a tablet OS anyway at this point, has relatively good drivers, stability, etc. The WiPhone is so unbelievably close to what I want [1] (+). I really wish it had a web browser though (which would likely require a beefier processor). I think the Pi compute module is asking to become a mobile device with the possibility of a good upgrade path too [2] (++). (+) Still waiting to ship it seems although I think they are acting in good faith. (++) The idea of using the DDR2 laptop RAM connector is genius IMO. They can also borrow the DDR3 and DDR4 connectors when the time comes for more pins. [1] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2103809433/wiphone-a-phone-for-hackers-and-makers https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2103809433/wiphone-a-ph... [2] https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspberry-pi-compute-module-new-product/ https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspberry-pi-compute-module...

vfclists 7y ago
Purism phone https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20555463 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20555463 You may have to wait for it to come down in price Pine Phone https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19592588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19592588
- bArray 7y ago
  Thanks for the links! The Purism phone is a lot more than I would want to pay, but I imagine the trade-off there is for the polished experience. Part of the fun for me would be the hack-ability. The Pine phone on the other hand looks great (at ~$150), hopefully they do a better job than what they did with their netbooks (I believe they had issues with the keyboards and the displays had dead pixels). There's even talk about porting Ubuntu phone, which is awesome! My guess is that it's still a long way off though, if the project doesn't die in the meantime (as a lot of these open source projects do).
f00zz 7y ago
You can get a Fairphone 2 and install Ubuntu Touch on it: https://ubports.com/devices/promoted-devices https://ubports.com/devices/promoted-devices

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

robgibbons 7y ago

It still amazes me the extent of BS that developers will put up with to get their apps into users hands. The level of profit-driven gatekeeping exhibited by both Apple and Google is fundamentally unacceptable to me, and one of the many reasons I will likely never release an app for mobile. The web is still the last bastion of developer freedom, albeit not the platform users have been trained to use these days.

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tomohawk 7y ago

Open letter to FTC: please break up this monopoly and allow competition in this space again.

Hitton 7y ago

Recently there is so many horror stories about Google support, last week https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20711508 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20711508, now this... I'm really glad I don't depend on business with Google.

edandersen 7y ago

Whilst good for developers and probably bad for Microsoft (reduces app numbers), I haven't seen any automated, recompiled clones on the Windows App Store, likely due to the native compilation. Despite being .NET apps it's not just a case of running ILSpy or something to get the source.

axilmar 7y ago

multiple knock - offs = more adds for google, it's that simple.

m-p-3 7y ago

Like many said, at some point it's your livelihood that is one the line, and Google taking actions without providing any details is downright malicious, and I expect someone to get their financial life ruined. Sometimes, a deep-rooted issue is unfixable through technological or verbal mean, and litigation would be the only way to get your life back and I sure hope that Google will get hit at some point.