7 ms·

This feels like a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. Every day we get told that cis-het white guys should shut up and stop 'splaining oppression.

• jayventura 7y ago
  Yes, cis-het white men do not have a seat at the table when discussing whether or not communities are oppressed. But they do have a seat at the table when discussing what they can do to help tear down structural inequalities. That's called being an ally.
  • rjsanders 7y ago
    Why should it matter who made an argument if it is evidence based and sound?
    • the_snooze 7y ago
      Credibility matters. If you have no credibility with your audience on the topic at hand, then your sound evidence will go unheard. It's not an issue of "should" it matter, but rather that it does matter. That's reality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethos#Rhetoric https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethos#Rhetoric
      • manigandham 7y ago
        If your credibility is determined by your skin color, that says more about the audience.
        • the_snooze 7y ago
          Well yeah, it's the audience who gets to determine how credible you are, by whatever (arbitrary and/or misguided) standards they choose. As someone speaking to an audience, it's your responsibility to determine if it's worth your energy to engage with them. Sometimes it works out even in the most bizarre circumstances. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis
    • jayventura 7y ago
      Who decides whether or not evidence is based and sound? During the slave era, white slave owners believed they were doing good for the black man. That this was their optimal role in society. If you are not the oppressed, you cannot objectively be part of the discussion about whether or not and how the oppressed are being oppressed. It's quite simple. The only thing you can do is help. If you argue against their oppression, you are perpetuating the structural inequality.
      • rjsanders 7y ago
        Genuine question, where have you sourced this line of reasoning from?
        • jayventura 7y ago
          Look up the concept of "natural slavery".
      • dar7 7y ago
        It's not clear that blacks are capable of self-governance even today.
        • dang 7y ago
          Not cool. We've banned this account.
      • deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      • pinkfoot 7y ago
        So, just because some men had a crappy idea — at the same time people also thought the earth was made in a week — every white man who ever lives is now precluded from an opinion. Dear lord.
      • Supermancho 7y ago
        In a nutshell, everyone is oppressed, in some way. You can be oppressed and be an oppressor. There's something to be said for how and why, but weighing them against each other is nebulous. This has been true throughout history. re: israel-palestinian, hmong-vienamese, english-scottish, etc. > If you are not the oppressed, you cannot objectively be part of the discussion about _whether or not_ ... I don't find this assertion is sound. There's an element of ideology in there, which I appreciate, but I do not agree on this practical tenet. If it was rephrased or attenuated to a more specific decisioning system (ie the latter part of the statement, is more palatable, albeit also something I don't fully agree to), I would re-examine it.
    • nickvonh 7y ago
      What evidence can you present around the existence of this oppression, as someone who has not experienced this type of oppression?
  • alfromspace 7y ago
    What if they disagree with your premises? I'd rather be your enemy than ally if all I can do is nod my head like an idiot puppet at all of the terribly misinformed social justice rhetoric you're throwing at me.
    • jayventura 7y ago
      You have the right and freedom to disagree. But at least ask yourself why you disagree and why you think someone is wrong about their oppression. And then apply that lens of thinking to another era, say Jim Crow, and how your lens of thinking can affect others.
    • commandlinefan 7y ago
      Ironically, his line of thinking excludes everybody _except_ the people who disagree with you from joining the conversation.
  • dekhn 7y ago
    please, expand the reasoning of why you think an entire class of people should be omitted from a discussion.
    • jayventura 7y ago
      I'll give you a couple very extreme examples that you can hopefully find parallel in: Do slave owners get a seat at the table when discussing whether or not and how slaves are oppressed? Do white people who support Jim Crow laws get a seat at the table when discussing whether or not and how black people are oppressed? Does a religious majority get a seat at the table when discussing whether or not and how a religious minority is oppressed? The argument is: those that are not affected by the oppression discussed (who may even be doing the oppressing) simply cannot have an objective discussion on whether or not and how a community is being oppressed. How do you know what that oppression is and feels like to tell someone that they are not being oppressed? Therefore, where a white cis-het male's opinion is productive is only when discussing how they can help-- not when discussing whether or not that oppression exists. In the same vein, I am male. My opinion is not productive when discussing whether or not and how women are oppressed. Consider this scenario: male politicians are deciding on laws that govern women's bodies; women say they are oppressed; men say no you're not oppressed. Do you see why men's opinion are not productive here? My opinion only matters when discussing how I can help women feel less oppressed. At the end of the day, you have the freedom and right to discuss all you want. But ask yourself, is your discussion productive or destructive to someone else. Your arguments will never convince an oppressed community that they are not oppressed, that's gaslighting. It will only convince other unaffected people against them-- which is why it's destructive to discuss the existence of oppression when you are not the oppressed.
      • steve_gh 7y ago
        My kids think that they are being oppressed because they are expected to help with chores and tidy their rooms. Clearly (as an oppressor) I am excluded from any objective discussion of the issue.
        • 7y ago
  • Rannath 7y ago
    Feel free to have your discussion without me. Just don't expect me to acknowledge your decisions if I'm not involved in them.
  • manigandham 7y ago
    Judging people by nothing other than skin color is abhorrent reasoning, and an example of the racist and discriminatory perspective that you claim is causing oppression.