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IP
- rms 18y agoMatt hasn't realized just how awesome piracy of music is if you are a member of a site like waffles.fm. It is much better than any legal music service. How could the RIAA compete with a mainstream waffles.fm?
- ivankirigin 18y ago1. Get all your music for free. 2. log your usage. 3. Use a micropayments engine to slice out support. You could dial the support up or down, maybe giving a disproportional amount to a certain band. I think you're totally right: unlimited and immediate access to music is just better. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't directly support the artists. The RIAA can't compete because they are fundamentally no longer part of the exchange. They add nothing. They continue through momentum, and will die soon.
- rms 18y agoI support that model in general, but I'd much rather spend my money supporting live performance. My favorite band is Radiohead. I didn't pay for their most recent album, because it didn't seem worth it. But I have paid over $200 to get 3 tickets to see them in concert this summer.
- ivankirigin 18y agoLive music is certainly awesome. It isn't the only model though.
- mattmaroon 18y agoIt's the only proven model, and the only one that has even the slightest hint of economic viability yet. Maybe you'll change that. I hope that you do.
- ivankirigin 18y agoGetting money for digital content distribution is an excellent value proposition for music makers. You need to show up at each, err, show. You only need to upload files into a distribution engine once, then every person on the planet can buy them.
- rms 18y agoYou mean like Pearl Jam's distribution and sale of their concert recordings? It's a great idea. I wish Radiohead would do the same thing. I'm actually surprised they haven't, since they definitely like extra opportunities to make money. Probably they haven't thought about it.
- mattmaroon 18y agoIt's much different for established bands. But yeah, that is awesome. Pearl Jam has been very innovative ever since they took on Ticketmaster in the 90's.
- mattmaroon 18y agoOf course, it just remains to be seen if this can be accomplished. Studies have clearly shown in many occasions that humans will generally not pay for something they can get for free. In fact, we'll incur a ridiculous amount of cost just to get something for "free". A few weeks ago, Papa Johns locations in north east Ohio gave away free pizzas worth about $5. People stood outside in the 45 degree weather, with rain, for 2 hours to get that pizza.
- aneesh 18y agoYeah, people like free too much, irrationally so. Chipotle in Cambridge gave away free burritos (worth $6), and the line was over an hour long. That said, I don't think this spells doom for micropayments. A successful "donations" model is Ben & Jerry's Free Cone day - a not-insignificant fraction of people donate to help various causes. I'd be interested to see statistics on this.
- JesseAldridge 18y ago"I think you're totally right: unlimited and immediate access to music is just better." Better for users, but not for producers. Also, Matt has made the point that the vast majority of people are unwilling to donate when they don't have to.
- ivankirigin 18y agoFree content is often free because people understand the the increased eyes and ears on content will make up for it being free. Only a fraction of your audience will pay, but your audience is probably orders of magnitude larger if free vs. gated by a pay wall.
- whacked_new 18y agoDoesn't this assume the profit you gain from kN users donating X/k price on average, given free content, equals or exceeds N users paying X price, or something like that? Of course this is a gross simplification, but how else does it justify making something free and expecting increased exposure to make the operation sustainable? IIRC Wikipedia is not looking good financially, and there is probably nothing with more eyeballs at the moment. I'm guessing you have thought though this situation much more thoroughly, and maybe have data on it too; otherwise, I'd be very surprised if things work out so ideally.
- DougBTX 18y ago> the increased eyes and ears on content Those eyes and ears were supposed to be looking at ads, where more impressions equals a happier advertiser. It isn't obvious how that extends to donation-ware, when everyone can just move on to the next free source of music.
- JesseAldridge 18y agoUm... I think his point was that the RIAA wouldn't be able to compete. They would go out of business, likely taking a large portion of the music industry with them. Copyright laws prevent this from happening by preventing waffles.fm from going mainstream.
- rms 18y agoLaws only have so much power... Oink was close to breaking into the mainstream before Interpol hit. Problem was that Oink was hosted in the UK. Waffles is hosted at the PRQ, so given sufficient server capacity they can dabble in the mainstream.
- mattmaroon 18y agoI'm pretty sure that the government will not let this become mainstream. There's always a way to combat a site.
- ivankirigin 18y agoYou should follow the Pirate Bay. They've been very good at avoiding arrest. Making a sea-steading country is also a good solution. If your servers live there, and can connect to everyone else, it will work.
- mattmaroon 18y agoHa, sea-steading still seems a little out there. They still have to connect to everyone else through an actual country. I don't know how TPB has lasted as long as they have. It is impressive.
- abstractbill 18y agoThey still have to connect to everyone else through an actual country. I'm not sure if you were meaning "connect" physically, but of course there's always satellites, and other non-physical ways to connect.
- mattmaroon 18y agoI use Rhapsody + FairUse4WM.
- maxklein 18y agoThat's an example of a long opinion piece with no point. Yes, Matt thinks that Copyright is actually useful, but what's your point? What's the action you want me to take? Why did I just read that - I know some people think copyright is okay, and some think that it's not okay, I did not have to read a long article with absolutely no new conclusions or any clear purpose. You basically took a two sentence argument and stretched it to waste 3 minutes of my time.
- zasz 18y agoI thought it had a lot of points. Defending the usefulness of copyright is a rare position on the internet, and he does give some actual reasons as to why copyright is useful (which is why his article is pointful rather than pointless)--it protects movies and books and other forms of creative content that are difficult to produce. He also takes some common defenses of copyright infringement (though he seems to reconstruct a couple as strawmen) and debunks them.
- maxklein 18y agoDefending copyright is not a rare opinion in my world. The opinions he talks about there are like the most basic opinions that anyone trying to defend copyright would come up with. Nothing new at all. It's as if he suddenly decided to think contrarian, then quickly wrote down the first thoughts he could think of. I used to work in the development division of a very major recording company. Reading his article would be like a competent C++ programmer reading an article about why classes are useful - sure, the article may be correct, but it's pointless reading, except for people who have never even entertained that thought.
- zasz 18y agoThen the problem is not that it was pointless, but that it was not novel. The article in question for your C++ programmer has a point; the programmer just doesn't care. As a college student, defending copyright is rare in MY world, and people look at me funny when I tell them I buy CDs, and my brother laughs at me when I say I'm going to support Obsidian by buying their next game full price as soon as it comes out. I liked Matt's article; it was pretty basic analysis, but it was reasonable.
- antiismist 18y agoMatt didn't get the viacom / youtube thing right. The DMCA provides a certain copyright-related safe harbor to online service providers, not just ISPs as he states. It is far from clear that youtube violated copyrights (that is the point of the litigation after all). see: http://www.lessig.org/blog/2007/03/viacom_v_youtube.html http://www.lessig.org/blog/2007/03/viacom_v_youtube.html
- mattmaroon 18y agoI've read in a number of places (and this may be incorrect) that YouTube loses safe harbor by converting the videos from one format to another. Mark Cuban said that for one, and he has paid entertainment lawyers on staff.
- abstractbill 18y agoRegardless of what the law says, this doesn't make sense. An automated process blindly converts video from one format into another, and the company hosting the video suddenly has a duty to examine each and every video to look for potential infringements? I don't see how that follows at all. Of course much of this law is untested, so any lawyer who makes claims about this is most likely just telling you what he thinks he can make a court believe.
- deleted 18y ago[deleted]
- antiismist 18y agoThe safe harbor provision is here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sec_17_00000512----000-.html http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sec_17_0... It could make sense, depending on the analogy that someone picks. For example, I have a coffee shop with a community message board. Someone posts copyrighted information there - someone tells me about it and I take it down right away. That sounds pretty fair. But what if I make a whole operation out of it - like if there are pictures, then I take those, clean them up, copy them, frame them, and put them on the wall of my shop. Now it seems like I have a lot more responsibility for what is going on. Is it fair for me to just blindly frame every single picture I find, even if some of the pictures are obviously copyrighted? Anyway that is my logical argument (as opposed to a legal one...)
- astine 18y ago"My position is that it’s bad to criminalize natural behavior." Violence is natural. It must be wrong to criminalize it.
- Xlp-Thlplylp 18y agoThe historical evidence contradicts Matt Maroon's assertion, conventionally held by corporate intellectual monopolists, that copyrights "incent" [sic] creativity. See Michele Boldrin and David K. Levine's Against Intellectual Monopoly for a detailed discussion.
- mattmaroon 18y agoWhy sic? It's in dictionaries.
- aston 18y agoAs is "irregardless." Not that anyone should begrudge you the use of either word.
- mattmaroon 18y agoI didn't actually know that. I know incent was just put there because people started using it widely, even before it was a word, but for some reason I like that and not irregardless. Maybe we should go one step further and start saying irregardlessly?
- aston 18y agoI'm a big fan of saying whatever you want as long as people understand you. Shakespeare made up stuff all the time, and people got it. Meanwhile, I can't understand Steve Gillmor, even when he's using all one syllable words.
- mattmaroon 18y agoDo I detect a fellow amateur etymologist?
- jdanieli 18y agoA word is a word before it gets put in the dictionary. A dictionary is a subset of the language. You cannot prove something isn't a word by showing that it is not in the dictionary, but if its in the dictionary, then it is definitely a word (unless it's a lexicographical error).
- abstractbill 18y agoTheft of a song is no more natural than theft of a car, so should we take those laws off the books too? Please stop reading this comment Matt. You're stealing it from all the other people who want to read it.
- mrtron 18y agoI would be willing to subscribe to your newsletter after reading your comment. Do you accept tipjoy? Doesn't that blow your mind? Without this free medium and my 'theft' I would never have even known of abstractbill.
- DougBTX 18y agoIt's easy to test. Talk PG into putting a "tipjoy" link right beside "link" above every comment, and see what happens.
- jfarmer 18y agoArgh. I can't stand it when people conflate theft and copyright infringement. They are different things and it's lazy to treat them the same. I tried to explain the differences as best as I could: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=207440 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=207440
- mrtron 18y agoFor someone with the whole Internet as their resource, I would consider it beyond lazy. It is ignorant to treat them the same. Copyright infringement has been responsible in increases for 'victim', both in exposure and revenues. Theft has never (that I am aware of) benefited the victim.
- andreyf 18y agoCopyright infringement has been responsible in increases for 'victim... Good example, but I think it's more important to point out where copyright and property law come from - that property is accepted in our society as a fundamental right, while copyright is monopoly power which our government may grant "for a limited time" "to promote the progress of useful arts". See here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articlei.html http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.article...
- davidw 18y agoPrecisely! It's supposed to be a compromise between "no IP" (where IP is copyrights, patents, trademarks, etc...) and some sort of permanent and ironclad possession of works and ideas. I believe the balance has tilted too far in favor of the producers of IP, and that it should be shifted back the other way, but not eliminated. In a more general sense, the problem is "provisioning of public goods": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good Creating property where none naturally exists is one solution, but there are others (some good, some bad, depends on the type of good).
- aston 18y agoAs a sometimes musician, I really want someone to get a little more creative about the future of the music industry than just "make all of your money from live concerts." If the only musicians that can make money from recordings are ones who are so widely known and liked that people stealing their music online is irrelevant, the gap between "unknown" and "world famous" is basically impossible to cross.
- markm 18y agoMy two cents: The days of bands with 100 million fans will be replaced with one hundred bands having 1 million fans each. And a few bands will have 1 billion fans in a 'flattening the curve' type motion where a band's talent is reflected by their popularity.
- mattmaroon 18y agoThis would seem to greatly disagree: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/15/magazine/15wwlnidealab.t.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/15/magazine/15wwlnidealab.t.h...
- initself 18y agoIt's not impossible to cross with the advent of the 'Long Tail'. "1,000 True Fans" sounds like the new 'fame'. http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2008/03/1000_true_fans.php http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2008/03/1000_true_fan...
- mattmaroon 18y agoThe long tail, sadly, is mostly urban legend.
- listic 18y agoCould you please explain this?
- 18y ago
- tx 18y agoMatt, you're confusing IP with copyrights. I've dealt with IP lawyers in the past, and those two terms mean very different things. Copyright law is actually a very murky water and certain kind of fish (lawyers) feel pretty comfortable swimming in there. Early YouTube investors clearly knew what's coming and they're prepared, they've get their fishies ready. But those are boring technicalities. What matters is the fundamental question if one can proclaim things like music, literature and images as his property. Technically I can repeat one of your sentences and you can accuse me of stealing. That's all huge bullshit in my opinion. A song or a movie by itself shouldn't be copyrightable simply because it's not fair: it takes a lot of money to enforce such laws, this is why there are only a few privileged "customers" of this system. I can copy and distribute your blog posts all I want and there is nothing you'll (likely) do about it. This "copyright club" doesn't treat outsiders nicely, this is why Google (clearly and outsider) has been bit so often by those assholes, even something as awesome as their "Street View" is facing idiotic copyright complaints. And, personally, I believe they will all fail and technology will overtake. We will not be paying for songs and movies, we'll be paying for comfortable theaters with nice sound and live concert performances. And someone with a law degree will have to find a real job.
- andreyf 18y agoWhat matters is the fundamental question if one can proclaim things like music, literature and images as his property. I believe the founders of the USA had this argument exactly, and this is what they came up with: The Congress shall have power [...] to promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries. Sigh I wish more people read it: http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articlei.html http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.article... In response to your question: no.
- sgibat 18y agoThe good thing is that even if, starting tomorrow, no one makes any more money from recordings of music, music recordings will still exist. It may even thrive -- music creators, the ones still doing it for fun, suddenly feel a lifting of pressure to maximize or even create profit, and creativity shoots through the roof. A diversity of aural culture previously unknown, spread entirely by word of mouth and recommendation engines, dances mainstream, and everyone is the better for it.
- andreyf 18y agoOften they phrase it as intellectual property that needs to be abandoned... This is very silly ... such a position would only be taken by someone who doesn't understand the extent of IP. IP is a huge blanket term, legally speaking. Patent law, copyright law, and trademark law have very little in common, but are all "IP". I haven't met anyone who seriously argued that we should get rid of patents... As far as copyright goes, in my experience, most intelligent, impartial, and well-informed individuals tend to converge on the constitutional opinion: "Congress should promote the progress of useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors the exclusive right to their respective writings" (this is almost a direct quote from article 1, section 8). The point of copyright law should be to promote progress of useful arts - I think this is the basis on which we should all agree. The term "intellectual property" muddies the discussion because one's right to property is a fundamental right, whereas one's power to restrict other's copying of your work is a power that congress can grant you for a limited time.
- dejb 18y ago>Without IP protection, the industries that have made our media our chief cultural export would be economically unfeasible. I guess the 'our' is supposed to be Americans. No chance that someone outside the US might read the article or have views on the issue. There are actually those who would argue that this 'chief cultural export' hasn't entirely been a good thing but I guess they don't really count according to this article's viewpoint.
- randallsquared 18y ago"I don’t think our current copyright system is failing. I think that right now it’s working incredibly well. iTunes is proof of that. Despite the fact that anyone with an iPod could, with just a little effort, fill it with stolen music, millions of people are paying to do so. Without the laws we have in place, that would not happen." Since you assert that people need not pay attention to the copyright laws which are in place, how does it follow that they'd stop buying music if the laws didn't exist? I would suggest that the success of the iTunes Store in the face of various well-known sharing methods suggests that it can compete without needing copyright law.
- colortone 18y agoIP is a non-rival good. I take your idea, you still have it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivalrous http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivalrous