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For every politically woke CS student there are two dozen completely apolitical ones (and a sprinkling of wrongthinkers). I don't think Palantir is really despe
by ng12 7y ago
For every politically woke CS student there are two dozen completely apolitical ones (and a sprinkling of wrongthinkers). I don't think Palantir is really desperate for applicants.
- aliston 7y agoStanford has also dumbed down its undergrad CS major, removing all of the old engineering requirements that tended to filter out the SJW types. Edit: seems the downvoters don’t like what I have to say, but that doesn’t make it less true. Compare the graduation requirements for CS at Stanford from a few years ago to now - no compilers or os, no multivariable calculus, no pointers. They literally eliminated all the hard classes. As a result, the degree has become more liberal arts focused and the makeup of the class has changed in sync. I’d guess more than 50% of cs majors at Stanford we’re asian and foreign born just a few years ago - folks who you generally don’t see leading direct action protests.
- likhuva 7y ago>> seems the downvoters don’t like what I have to say, but that doesn’t make it less true. Except that it isn't true. A quick look at https://cs.stanford.edu/degrees/ug/Requirements.shtml https://cs.stanford.edu/degrees/ug/Requirements.shtml paints a completely diffrent picture.
- aliston 7y agoPlease point out where something I said isn’t accurate.
- likhuva 7y ago>> no compilers or os, no multivariable calculus, no pointers. Stanford still requires cs students to take classes that cover the material above (except compilers which can be taken as a specialization)
- aliston 7y agoThat’s just not true - they all became depth electives or not required at all. OS is 140. Not required. Multi var calculus is math 51. Not required. As you note, compilers is not required. They also removed the EE hardware class in favor of a mishmash of core cs classes that are easier.
- jdashg 7y agoIt depends on the track. HCI for instance doesn't require those, but other tracks do. CS isn't just about printing software engineers.
- manfredo 7y agoStanford did indeed make some changes that I feel did significantly impact the rigor of the courses. Most notably, CS106 (A, B and X) and 107 all introduced team assignments, but the assignments themselves largely did not change. So you have twice the workforce for each assignment. I feel like this also meant that when a pair consisted of two people of different levels of skill the quicker student finds and fixes most bugs, thereby depriving the weaker student from developing debugging skills. Without pair programming the latter would eventually develop those skills but it would take longer and require more assistance from section leaders. I think it's a bit crude to say it's been "dumbed down" but it is not entirely untrue. Also I don't think this has anything to do with "SJWs", these changes were directly prompted by staffing shortages.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- ineedasername 7y agoI see no connection between a person being a so-called "SJW" and an inability to perform more rigorous engineering work. I have no idea where you draw that connection from.
- i_am_nomad 7y agoStatistics and observation, probably.
- ineedasername 7y agoAnecdote & bias is more likely
- magashna 7y agoInclusivity at the expense of merit.
- mitfahrener 7y agoNo worries. Us non-wokies will vote you up :)
- tayo42 7y agosounds like they are aligning the degree with the realities of a programing career. did calculus really make you a better software engineer? Most development happens at such a high level that not knowing OS and compilers probably can get most people by. How much of development is made up of frontend js programmers, mobile developers, web developers writing php/wordpress stuff. If you do want to be good at it, it is a specialty. If you do want to do science, there are still masters and phd programs. Undergrad is job prep for most people and colleges are doing a disservice by pretending it's not.
- sp527 7y ago> Undergrad is job prep for most people and colleges are doing a disservice by pretending it's not. This is a completely inverted way to frame it. Higher education shouldn't be perverted by the whims of the labor market. Universities don't need to change their curriculums. Companies need to change their hiring standards.
- mellowdream 7y agoIf only higher education weren't already perverted by the realities of greed and incompetent bureaucracy leading to our little student debt problem inconveniencing a handful of students in the country /s
- sp527 7y agoThis is very a bold straw man.
- skgoa 7y agoIt shouldn't be, but for most people entering into it, becoming highly desirable on the job/employee market is the chief motivator. If a university doesn't cater to that demand, the students will go elsewhere.
- sp527 7y agoI don't disagree. And maybe students should go elsewhere. Maybe our society should rethink what qualifications it seeks of prospective entrants to the labor force. What should not change, however, is the fundamental nature of academia. That model is inviolate and has propelled much progress in our species' collective knowledge. In fact, I think the hijacking of higher education as an assembly line to furnish credentials wholesale is an unforgivable adulteration of that institution.
- gaze 7y agoYou’re literally just calling SJWs stupid in a roundabout way.
- wnmurphy 7y agoYou may be getting downvoted for applying a derogatory term commonly used to dismiss anyone with a conscience, and the privilege to actually exercise it.
- captainredbeard 7y agoHmm, sounds like the argument used to justify social conservatives who attempted to impose their conscience / morals on the others...
- wnmurphy 7y agoYou can speak up for what you believe in without imposing it on others, you know.
- raxxorrax 7y agoI don't like forced moralization as much as the next one but I think this is a bad development. Before computer science becoming something you could study, it was mostly bundled with philosophy in my country. That isn't just about chugging two beers and talking about the state of the world. Arguments are carefully crafted and (logical) consistency is valued that could for one help you with in your field and additionally allows you to look beyond the horizon on a lot of issues.
- spamizbad 7y agoStanford's admission rate has been dropping over the last decade, so I highly doubt newer students are any less qualified or capable. In fact, I'd argue the opposite: The median student slated to graduate in 2023 is likely smarter and harder-working than median student who graduated in 2003.
- manfredo 7y agoNot necessarily, a dropping admissions rate can be experienced even if the performance requirements remain the same and the number of unqualified applicants increases.
- spamizbad 7y agoUnlikely given that Stanford has long been considered by the public to be a name-brand tier-1 school for decades.
- manfredo 7y ago"for decades" that's somewhat debatable. Stanford has been renowned locally in California and along much of the west coast for decades. Its nation-wide renown and worldwide renown are more recent. Stanford started to see large growth in the matriculation rate and number of applicants in the mid to late 2000s and really kicking off in the 2010s. One year, I think in 2009, there was unexpectedly high matriculation to such an extent that freshman had to sleep in cots for a few weeks. It's been a good University for a while, but I think it's reputation as an institution on par with Harvard or Princeton, or OxBridge is maybe 10-15 years old.
- qntty 7y agoYou're really flattening the diversity of people with a political consciousness. "Social justice" isn't the be-all end-all goal of politics.
- alexandercrohde 7y agoI don't know if that's true among top-tier applicants. And even if the ratio were 24:1, it still not a meaningless gesture. It puts an economic pressure on a company when finding candidates is harder. But really being able to be proud of the work you do in your life is its own reward.
- rogerkirkness 7y agoIt's pretty meaningless, and top-tier at that level is fit based, the objective geniuses have a way of not working for other people for very long at all.
- ng12 7y agoI'd wager it's even more true among top-tier candidates. Anecdotally the best engineers I've ever worked with have been among the most uninterested in politics.
- solveit 7y agoMy experience is that they're interested in politics somewhat orthogonal to the mainstream discourse.
- UncleMeat 7y agoAnecdotally, several of the smartest people I knew as a grad student at Stanford are now working for an international nonprofit seeking to reduce bigotry, working in politics focused on privacy, working on encrypted communications, and working as faculty at another top tier university focused on accessibility and ml fairness.
- ng12 7y agoNot many of the excellent programmers I know went to grad school. It's probably self-selected for people interested in social issues.
- manfredo 7y agoI disagree. In my experience (graduated from Stanford in 2015) at least as many people, probably more, are put off by "woke" culture and corporate activism. Opinions that are commonly voiced are not necessarily widely held because people with strong opinions tend to speak a disproportionately large amount.
- stonogo 7y agoThere is no such thing as "apolitical."
- p1necone 7y agoYes, in my experience people that say things like "no need to drag politics into this" really mean "no need to drag political opinions that are different from my own into this".
- jimmaswell 7y agoI'd rather not have annoying protestors disrupting the education I paid for and bugging me with pamphlets even if I agree. I counter-protested some annoying walk-out over the election result at college with a "Krusty Krab Unfair" sign and some of them got mad at me, so at least I got back at them a little. Outrageous that some professors weren't counting absences though.
- p1necone 7y agoWay to prove my point. You wanting to deny others right to peaceful assembly is you getting political. You just don't realize because you (obviously) agree with yourself.
- corndoge 7y agoPlease peacefully assemble 100 feet outside of somewhere I didn't pay tens of thousands to be.
- gaze 7y agoProtest doesn’t work unless it it causes extreme inconvenience. You’re telling the protestors not to protest. Americans have a completely impotent understanding of protest. Protest and asking nicely are NOT the same thing. You do the former when the latter doesn’t work.
- odiroot 7y agoI don't understand why is Palantir singled out there. Compared to Facebook (maybe even Google) seems like a good company to work for.
- randcraw 7y agoPalantir is heavily into surveillance and is used by many customers to secretly push their interests well past the fuzzy boundary of US privacy law, much like Facebook. The main difference is that Palantir heavily serves police and military customers on projects that are classified and thus criminal to reveal. Any company whose business is to help federal and local police surveil the public while hiding these practices from public scrutiny and oversight worries me, and I think, should worry everyone in light of Snowden's revelations.
- LegitShady 7y agoOwned by a conservative in tech who is against the current technocratic fascist progressive system being pushed by many. Makes him a target to single out for urinalists with agendas.
- finolex1 7y agoThe article does say the percentage of people accepting full time offers from Facebook has dropped from 85% to 35-55%. I imagine its far worse for Palantir. Sure, they can always get more applicants from somewhere, but in all likelihood they definitely do feel the effects.
- mellowdream 7y agoAnecdotally - I'm at a moderately liberal college for undergrad (what colleges aren't at least this much, I guess) - more than plenty of people are willing to at least intern at Palantir, Facebook, etc., especially with their initiatives for signing more women and poc on board. A lot have even accepted offers, and I haven't noticed any decline in these patterns over the past few years. Many young students still want to work at FANG companies and make sexy bank, everything else be damned. Not that I necessarily know what my peers' moral integrity and political positions are like...
- manfredo 7y ago> The article does say the percentage of people accepting full time offers from Facebook has dropped from 85% to 35-55%. I imagine its far worse for Palantir. Attributing this to politics seems like a premature conclusion. Another possibility is that there are an increased number of competitors that compensate well. Uber, AirBnb, and others. Also, it looks like the drop is only across 1 specific year so it's heavily subject to noise: > the acceptance rate for full-time positions at Facebook from recent graduates of top-tier schools had fallen between 35 and 55 percent as of last December, down from an 85 percent acceptance rate for the 2017–18 school year. If this were measured as as sliding window and showed consistent decline it'd be more convincing.
- ummonk 7y agoHow much of that is merely due to students interviewing at more places and thus getting multiple good offers though?
- xxxpupugo 7y agoExactly. I know people would work for Palantir specifically because it appeals to their political taste. People are different and complicated, assuming a blank slate of tech people following certain ideology is ignorant at its best, stupid at its worst. Smart people won't go to Google/Facebook? Think twice. Maybe they want to spend more time in exciting/shiny stuff when they still can afford to make mistakes. The difference here being they CAN join Facebook or Google at the right time. Money definitely talks, let alone the problem/scope company like Facebook or Google could offer, that certain startup couldn't even dream about.