6 ms·

Imagining the Western Other in 19th-Century Japanese Prints

68 points by lermontov 7y ago

dekhn 7y ago
Not exactly the same thing, but I saw an interesting print from Japan during the time when Dutch ships first entered the harbor. It was clear at that point that Japanese ships were technically inferior to the Dutch ones, and the perspective from the artist is interesting. https://web.archive.org/web/20171219041521/http://www.iisg.nl/exhibitions/japaneseprints/ships.html https://web.archive.org/web/20171219041521/http://www.iisg.n...
draw_down 7y ago
A while back I saw an exhibit of Japanese masks from this period. Interestingly, the noses were exaggeratedly large, because the Japanese at the time (perhaps still today) thought Europeans had big noses.
- deogeo 7y ago
  Seems like they still think so: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/japanese-airline-ana-apologises-for-racist-advert-stereotyping-foreigners-as-having-big-noses-and-9072651.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/japanese-airli... But I think compared to Asians, white people objectively do have bigger noses, so they're not wrong.
  - draw_down 7y ago
    Haha, what a way to demonstrate the point. And yeah, they’re not wrong.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >because the Japanese at the time (perhaps still today) thought Europeans had big noses. Well, compared to Japanese faces, they certainly do.
coldtea 7y ago
"Other" is such a cliche "liberal arts" term. How about "How the Japanese imagined Westerners in 19-Century prints"?
- thebooktocome 7y ago
  Inaccurate. Some of these images were drawn from life.
- zapzupnz 7y ago
  Just because it's cliché doesn't mean it isn't specific and thus still useful. I don't like the term either, but that doesn't stop it being the best term to explain a rather particular but difficult-to-illustrate concept with the highest level of unambiguity. Also, why liberal arts in scare quotes? Of course the term comes from liberal arts; social sciences come under that umbrella and have done for years. If it's a politically-charged term, then just call it humanities.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Just because it's cliché doesn't mean it isn't specific and thus still useful. I don't like the term either, but that doesn't stop it being the best term to explain a rather particular but difficult-to-illustrate concept with the highest level of unambiguity. A "particular but difficult-to-illustrate concept"? Westerners (in particular) or foreigners (in general) both perfectly capture what the Japanese where depicting, without the baggage and obscurantism of "Others".
    - zapzupnz 7y ago
      Except that it's not just about Westerners full stop; there's also an element of exoticism, compounded by the lack of proper interactions with the West by most of Japan for around a century. Clearly these depictions of the West are done from a hugely emic point of view, with the distortions of the depictions of the West distorted partly by the art style but partly from the lack of accurate information. And yes, the concept of the Other is not easy to illustrate because it has less to do with the parties involved and more of their understanding of each other, the lenses through which these preconceptions are analysed still being debated to this day. It's helpful that there is a word, even if it's merely shorthand, to describe this concisely. There is nothing black and white about the Other but equally this being a story simple of Western and Japanese is not as night and day as you claim.
livueta 7y ago
I guess I understand why they didn't mention it in an article about a specific exhibit, but my absolute favorite example of this sort of thing is a, ah, highly imaginative rendition of the American Revolutionary War, complete with George Washington punching out a tiger. Book scans: http://archive.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kosho/bunko11/bunko11_a0380/bunko11_a0380_0002/bunko11_a0380_0002.html http://archive.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kosho/bunko11/bunko11_a0380/... Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18430610 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18430610
60654 7y ago
These prints are currently on display at the Art Institute of Chicago [1] and if you're in the area, it's a highly recommended temp exhibition. AIC is having a great run with prints lately. Before this they did a whole exhibit on Japanese mass produced prints, using Hokusai's "Great Wave off Kanagawa" and its variants as the leading example. [2] [1] https://www.artic.edu/exhibitions/9332/yokohama-e-19th-century-prints-of-americans-in-japan https://www.artic.edu/exhibitions/9332/yokohama-e-19th-centu... [2] https://www.artic.edu/articles/743/seeing-triple-the-great-wave-by-hokusai https://www.artic.edu/articles/743/seeing-triple-the-great-w...

68 points by lermontov 7y ago

Not exactly the same thing, but I saw an interesting print from Japan during the time when Dutch ships first entered the harbor. It was clear at that point that Japanese ships were technically inferior to the Dutch ones, and the perspective from the artist is interesting. https://web.archive.org/web/20171219041521/http://www.iisg.nl/exhibitions/japaneseprints/ships.html https://web.archive.org/web/20171219041521/http://www.iisg.n...

draw_down 7y ago

A while back I saw an exhibit of Japanese masks from this period. Interestingly, the noses were exaggeratedly large, because the Japanese at the time (perhaps still today) thought Europeans had big noses.

deogeo 7y ago
Seems like they still think so: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/japanese-airline-ana-apologises-for-racist-advert-stereotyping-foreigners-as-having-big-noses-and-9072651.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/japanese-airli... But I think compared to Asians, white people objectively do have bigger noses, so they're not wrong.
- draw_down 7y ago
  Haha, what a way to demonstrate the point. And yeah, they’re not wrong.
coldtea 7y ago
>because the Japanese at the time (perhaps still today) thought Europeans had big noses. Well, compared to Japanese faces, they certainly do.

coldtea 7y ago

"Other" is such a cliche "liberal arts" term. How about "How the Japanese imagined Westerners in 19-Century prints"?

thebooktocome 7y ago
Inaccurate. Some of these images were drawn from life.
zapzupnz 7y ago
Just because it's cliché doesn't mean it isn't specific and thus still useful. I don't like the term either, but that doesn't stop it being the best term to explain a rather particular but difficult-to-illustrate concept with the highest level of unambiguity. Also, why liberal arts in scare quotes? Of course the term comes from liberal arts; social sciences come under that umbrella and have done for years. If it's a politically-charged term, then just call it humanities.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >Just because it's cliché doesn't mean it isn't specific and thus still useful. I don't like the term either, but that doesn't stop it being the best term to explain a rather particular but difficult-to-illustrate concept with the highest level of unambiguity. A "particular but difficult-to-illustrate concept"? Westerners (in particular) or foreigners (in general) both perfectly capture what the Japanese where depicting, without the baggage and obscurantism of "Others".
  - zapzupnz 7y ago
    Except that it's not just about Westerners full stop; there's also an element of exoticism, compounded by the lack of proper interactions with the West by most of Japan for around a century. Clearly these depictions of the West are done from a hugely emic point of view, with the distortions of the depictions of the West distorted partly by the art style but partly from the lack of accurate information. And yes, the concept of the Other is not easy to illustrate because it has less to do with the parties involved and more of their understanding of each other, the lenses through which these preconceptions are analysed still being debated to this day. It's helpful that there is a word, even if it's merely shorthand, to describe this concisely. There is nothing black and white about the Other but equally this being a story simple of Western and Japanese is not as night and day as you claim.

livueta 7y ago

I guess I understand why they didn't mention it in an article about a specific exhibit, but my absolute favorite example of this sort of thing is a, ah, highly imaginative rendition of the American Revolutionary War, complete with George Washington punching out a tiger. Book scans: http://archive.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kosho/bunko11/bunko11_a0380/bunko11_a0380_0002/bunko11_a0380_0002.html http://archive.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kosho/bunko11/bunko11_a0380/... Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18430610 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18430610

60654 7y ago

These prints are currently on display at the Art Institute of Chicago [1] and if you're in the area, it's a highly recommended temp exhibition. AIC is having a great run with prints lately. Before this they did a whole exhibit on Japanese mass produced prints, using Hokusai's "Great Wave off Kanagawa" and its variants as the leading example. [2] [1] https://www.artic.edu/exhibitions/9332/yokohama-e-19th-century-prints-of-americans-in-japan https://www.artic.edu/exhibitions/9332/yokohama-e-19th-centu... [2] https://www.artic.edu/articles/743/seeing-triple-the-great-wave-by-hokusai https://www.artic.edu/articles/743/seeing-triple-the-great-w...