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The Lost Art of Lacing Cable (2018)
- bartvanH 7y agoThanks for sharing, I've always thought cable lacing is one of the most beautiful ways of doing permanent installs.
- Aromasin 7y agoWe still use lacing cord for most of our aircraft harnesses. Nobody but the engineers and technicians ever get to see it, which is a shame because it really does look beautiful.
- RenRav 7y agoMy favorite was the massive wire harnesses spiral wrapped in teflon, looked so good. It always reminded me of bonsai wire-wrapping for some reason.
- java-man 7y agopictures, please!
- Aromasin 7y agoUnfortunately the factory floor has a no camera policy, so I'm not able to share. I'd be hoarding the karma in /r/cableporn otherwise.
- moftz 7y agoHere is an example: https://starkaerospace.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Wire-Harness-3.jpg https://starkaerospace.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Wire-H... The black ties is the lacing cord. Sometimes its just small pieces that bundle the wire every few inches, sometimes its a long continuous piece that is looped at those intervals. The black nylon overbraid is for any wiring harness that is exposed or handled routinely. They typically don't use it on anything that gets tucked away. Also notice the heavy harness supports on those connectors. This is thick gauge cable and a lot of it. Large aerospace companies have shops and techs dedicated to making these all day long.
- wickerman 7y agoI didn't know about this at all! Why is it not done anymore?
- forgotmypwd123 7y agoThe comments below the article outline a few reasons. Overcompression of the cables, difficulty making changes later, etc. Cable ties and velcro wraps seem to make more sense.
- moron4hire 7y agoThe comments mention overcompression as a problem of zipties, not cable lacing.
- gumby 7y ago“Zip tie” cable ties aren’t only the ones that risk overcompression but also have a big “box” that juts proud from the bundle which can interfere with threading, moving other things around it, can snag on things passing by, etc.
- walrus01 7y agoAnd people in a hurry with dull tools inevitably cut off the tail of the zip tie less than flush, and at a 45 degree angle. Those things will gouge up the back of your hands and forearms and draw blood. They're not only a hazard to humans but also to other fragile cable jacket that might run up against it during installation. Zip ties are totally banned from the fiber meet me rooms at many major internet traffic exchange points.
- Aromasin 7y agoNot sure why you're getting down voted. As part of our stand procedure we have to file down zip ties because it caused too many issues with damaging cables - and having been sliced while inspecting a unit, the fact they are now all nice and smooth is fine by me.
- moonbug 7y agoLooking forward to the second part, lamenting how kids today down crimp their oown patch cables
- Based_Detroiter 7y agoClassic butcher knot, now i'm hungry for roast beef tenderloin. Thanks OP.
- _Microft 7y agoHere's cable lacing visible on a Mars rover: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/MER-2_On_Lander_Prelaunch_PIA04849.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/MER-2_On...
- walrus01 7y agoAnd a whole lot of kapton tape.
- UI_at_80x24 7y agoHence the origin of: Crap-Tonne
- gotts 7y agoI'm wondering if zip ties are used at all in a project like this one.
- mikestew 7y agoLeave plastic out in the sun, exposed to UV radiation: plastic degrades. Sub-zero temps? Plastic snaps. Snip the end, they leaves sharp edges. Zip ties are great for most conditions under which humans can survive. Now, NASA could have special "space zip ties" that are formulated to resist such conditions, but I would imagine they would bear little resemblance to the ones at Harbor Freight that comes in bags of 100 for $3.
- _Microft 7y agoOn top of that softeners in plastics can/will outgas in the low pressure environment and maybe contaminate nearby sensors or cause other unexpected things.
- aidenn0 7y agoFor those wondering, they do make zip ties out of PEEK[1] for high temperature ranges. They are rated up to mid 200s C for temperature and cost about $1-3 per tie. I noticed that all zip ties seem to be made out of thermoplastic polymers (most are nylon). I assume something about the manufacturing of them rules out thermoset polymers? Anyone on HN care to enlighten us? 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyether_ether_ketone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyether_ether_ketone
- rainbowzootsuit 7y agoThe NASA workmanship standards include cable lacing. Look in section 9.2 https://nepp.nasa.gov/files/27631/NSTD87394A.pdf https://nepp.nasa.gov/files/27631/NSTD87394A.pdf
- dsfyu404ed 7y agoThe internet loves to jack it to cable lacing but if it were really a silver bullet then you'd see it more. It's fine for holding wires together and being light weight but does little to protect wires from abrasion. There's a reason every modern wiring harness that isn't going into (or near) space uses split or expanding loom secured at the ends or spiral loom (not sure what the real name for that stuff is). Not to mention that cable lacing is slower and more expensive and easier to screw up than wire loom. Cable lacing has its uses but those uses are nowhere near as common as the internet would have you believe. And before you ask, I feel similarly about the western union splice. It's an outdated relic from a time when man hours were cheap and materials were expensive. They are very rare today for a reason. And yes, I know this will be a very unpopular option here. Most people who understands the nuance of the trade-offs of various ways of securing wires are smart enough to avoid commenting in here. Obviously I am not that smart.
- Aromasin 7y agoThere's certainly a time and place for it though still. Certainly in the aerospace industry, cable lacing is a very important part of the harness making process. When trying to be compliant to safety measures (like incredibly low or high temperature points, flammability, or vibration) heatshrink/conduit/tape often fails spec and the only alternative is good old fashioned wires and lacing.
- dsfyu404ed 7y agoCable lacing is used in aerospace because it's lighter and they use such generous safety margins for preventing abrasion and securing wires that the issues with the cable cutting the insulation or abrasion that make loom the obvious choice are non-issues and aircraft, it's easier to inspect cables that are laces (vs ones in a loom) and spending a few grand to save a few pounds is justifiable in that context. Temperature/environmental concerns are basically irrelevant because loom can be made out of the same or similar materials as the wire insulation. I know I've seen braided loom in small aircraft. I can't remember where though. Cable lacing is usually the right tool for aerospace. It is not the solution to every problem like the internet thinks it is.
- walrus01 7y agoWaxed string is still used by purists in the telecom industry, particularly for attaching -48vdc cabling to overhead ladder racks. Velcro is catching up rapidly. There's a bellcore standard for waxed string diameter and tensile strength... Bell document from 1984: https://fulltrackproductions.com/service%20bulletins/Complete_guide_to_cable_lacing.pdf https://fulltrackproductions.com/service%20bulletins/Complet... https://youtu.be/aiO-rNyVngU https://youtu.be/aiO-rNyVngU I know a number of people who will have a much lower opinion of you if you bust out a big bag of white zipties and then proceed to install them, and cut off the tails improperly (those things are SHARP). Zipties are entirely banned from some major ISP pops that have large amounts of very critical , relatively fragile 2mm jacket singlemode fiber patch cables.
- TomMasz 7y agoMy dad worked for Western Electric (part of AT&T) and he showed me how to do this when we were wiring a model train layout.
- zwieback 7y agoOur techs love to cinch down the zip ties as hard as they can, I've seen a lot of bruised insulation. Also, the fat end of the zip tie is annoying when you pull a harness through a wireway. Still, this seems way too laborious unless you're building some aerospace thing.
- adestefan 7y agoBan nylon ties and get the Velcro ones. They’re as fast as using nylon ties, are reusable, and are soft and wide enough to save the insulation.
- crysin 7y agohttps://www.velcro.com/legal-and-privacy/dontsayvelcro/ https://www.velcro.com/legal-and-privacy/dontsayvelcro/
- VBprogrammer 7y agoAmusing, but we all know that's just lip service to show that they are trying to defend there trademark. Google had the same thing a few years back.
- JustSomeNobody 7y agoNot just lip service, they come right out and say it: Us lawyers have to protect our people. Using the VELCRO® trademark properly allows us to protect the integrity of the VELCRO® Brand and our trademark rights, and protect consumers from purchasing products incorrectly identified as VELCRO® Brand products. It’s, you know, the right thing to do
- janders 7y agoThis is wild. It's perfectly logical what they're doing but I'm used to seeing this kinda thing after the trademark has lapsed (Kleenex, Xerox, etc). But to see a company release a pretty funny youtube video begging you to say their name less, well, it's just a weird thing to see.
- jrcii 7y agoA significant part of my life is cable management. Velcro brand cable ties are the way to go. Zip ties are banned from my networks. They don’t cut into the cables, you can add cables later, they’re very strong. You can chain them together as your bundle size increases. I keep a spare roll in my briefcase.
- moftz 7y agoI really like the rolls of hook and loop where you cut the tie to length. You can make massive bundles or just small ones and never waste it. Bonus is that they are reusable. I've used reusable zip-ties before, they are a massive pain to remove when breaking down equipment.
- madez 7y agoThis or similar type of lacing is practicioned in some Bondage suspensions. The end knots may differ, but the way to secure the loose end to the hanging support ropes is often done this way because it is fast and allows a gradual release, which is important to stay in control and not be surprised. Please, if you want to try suspensions, practice first, and read up about rope techniques and medical topics, like nerve positions, nerve function testing, and nerve damage.
- slacka 7y agoFor those that are interested in this, you must checkout: https://www.reddit.com/r/cableporn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cableporn/
- tvanantwerp 7y agoI've had to redo too much cabling with office rearrangements to ever want to lace cables. Velcro all the way for me.
- crazygringo 7y agoInteresting! But is there ever any reason for doing this today, over zip ties or velcro ties? I'm guessing no?
- Aromasin 7y agoDepends how safety conscious you are looking to be. Freighter shipping, military installations, and aerospace often still use lacing cord because it causes less abrasion, or zip ties and velcro ties won't pass flammability/vibration/temperature/[insert] testing.
- ken 7y agoFor stage rigging, the "method of choice"? Never seen it. It "lasts longer than cable ties"? Not sure if they mean zip ties, velcro, tie line, etc, but I've never seen any of these fail due to age. It "does not create obstructions along the length of the cable"? We use e-tape. Rigging isn't generally about electrics, anyway. I wonder if that's a typo.
- 52-6F-62 7y agoAs someone who managed a department that looked after stage/film/tv electrical rigging and distribution/cable/breaker-box rental equipment for five years or so I will be happy to agree with you in that the modern technique seems to not be elegant tying with cord, but "gaffer the shit out of it and yer good, bud". (Had to clean a lot of that crap up!) Then again, those were the cases largely in temporary rigging. The gaffer tape will dry out after a while and fail. Very rarely sold equipment to permanent installs.
- jedberg 7y agoI use pipe cleaners as my cable ties. Color coded, soft and flexible, strong, easy to remove, doesn't hurt your fingers. Here's[0] the last one I did, reddit's last datacenter before we moved to EC2. [0] https://i.imgur.com/DlaX4.png https://i.imgur.com/DlaX4.png
- daveslash 7y agoVery cool. I love the color-coding idea. Speaking of alternative materials, the article notes "traditionally made of waxed linen", so I wonder how dental floss would work for small home projects (like under my home-workstation desk).
- jedberg 7y agoDental floss is too small. It would cut the sheath of the cable.
- hardbop200 7y agoA telephone technician that I worked with warned me against using these, saying that they are "lightning magnets." I don't know if this is true or not, would love to hear from someone else.
- nimbius 7y agoSpeaking as an automotive engine mechanic, sometimes we use lacing in long-haul tractor trailers. Wiring for sensor modules along the air-slide fifth wheel, near the attic, or especially around the air brake dryer are always laced. The reason for this is zip ties will quickly fail after freeze-thaw cycles. professional drivers in wisconsin or Minnesota cannot get stuck due to an electrical failure on the side of a remote road, as it can prove fatal. The same goes for heat. sensors near the differential or aux transmission MUST be laced. Climates like Arizona and Texas can cause zip ties to bite into soft wire insulation or vice versa, causing the harness failures. Then theres manufacturer recommendations. Zip tie plastic can contain additives that bugs or rodents find quite delicious, which cause nesting issues and failures. kevlar twine or lacing cord can be dipped in bitrex or other chemicals to prevent this.
- dsb5 7y agoI had a rodent problem in my garage where rats and mice ate through wiring in my motorcycle and garage door wires. When I had them repaired after eradicating the problem, both my motorcycle mechanic and garage door repairman said that ya the wires they are making in china are made with something especially tasty for rodents.
- mikestew 7y agosomething especially tasty for rodents Soy-based wiring insulation: https://www.thedrive.com/news/20878/rodents-are-feasting-on-newer-cars-soy-based-wiring-insulation https://www.thedrive.com/news/20878/rodents-are-feasting-on-...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- russb 7y agoMore detail on a couple of sewing methods, the Kansas City stitch and the Chicago stitch https://www.dslreports.com/r0/download/1377481~846610918062e1c57e36f03a5c37b426/lacing.pdf https://www.dslreports.com/r0/download/1377481~846610918062e...
- Syzygies 7y agoGood also for lacing a rolled pork belly for chashu for ramen noodles. (The end knots can be simpler.)
- Balgair 7y agoAside: I work in med-tech. One of the largest complaints of doctors and nurses, especially in the ICU, is the cables and tubes. There are just SO MANY cables and tubes in a working ICU. Nurses and docs are constantly stepping on them, pulling them out, choking off blood/saline/urine/air in some tube, knocking power off of another, etc. Most of the machines can't do wireless, as some of the machines will 'jam' that particular bandwidth to operate (MRI, etc). As this article seems to be collecting a lot of great people that know their cabling, is there anything we can do to reduce or eliminate the headaches that are cables and tubes in a panicked ICU? Anything may help, and I'd love to know some more ideas. EDIT: One thing I've found for cable bundle twisting issues is that 'N-in-hand' braiding the cables helps relieve some of the stresses when they inevitably get twisted up. Think 30 wires/tubes all twisting about as the patient/machine is whirled about. Braiding the cables helps the wires on the outside of the bundle not twist and pull out as much as they are on the outside radius of the bundle. The braiding helps, in that over enough distance, all the wires spend equal 'time' in the inside and the outside of the cable's width. Does anyone know of a good resource on cable/tube twisting and how to help with it?
- extrapickles 7y agoICU is not trivial as everything is done quickly. At first thought, overhead cable gantries would be the best as you could quickly toss the cable/tube into it, but then the area around the patent would have tubes getting in the way, so some thought would have to be put into how the cables come out of the gantries. Other techniques such as pre-laid cable guards could work (a smaller version of the things cables go through to temporarily cross a road), but those people would still be tripping on, laying a cable or tube would be disruptive and they would be annoying to keep clean.
- Balgair 7y agoThanks for the input! Yeah, overhead cables aren't the best, as a lot of the time, the length of the tubes and cables aren't long enought to do that. Also, yes, you'll end up with a 'beaded curtain' of tubes and stuff going into the patient. The idea of having everything routed under and then up to the bedside is not bad, though cable length is still an issue. It is a hard problem for sure.
- plorg 7y agoOT: the fullscreen modal on pageload made me want to bounce immediately. But, in good faith, I tried to register. It took like 10 minutes, because required fields (Industry, Company Name, Job Title) automatically cleared in the case of a form submission failure, "Other" categories broke the form, and the user is required to sign up for at least one category of bulk mail, told it's "optional", and given the frequency options "daily", "weekly", or "monthly". If no categories are checked the form submission fails and the form clears half of the fields. The password field gets reset but still appears to be filled, so if the user submits an otherwise correct form the second time the same fields clear again. A new visitor is visually assaulted before even seeing the linked article (e.g. evaluating your site). The prospective user is then lied to and punished for attempting to register, and the site is shown to be shoddily constructed.
- wodenokoto 7y agoYeah, it’s crazy. It’s like they expect people to not use the call to action and just close the modal. Then why even show it?
- jascii 7y agoI learned cable lacing in aviation maintenance school when I was burned out on tech. It has a lot of advantages (less abrasion, plastic flow, plastic waste, etc then zip ties). With a bit of practice it can be faster too. I still use it in personal projects, at work not so much: wouldn't want to confuse my coworkers to much ;)
- erikcw 7y agoThe photos instantly reminded me of trussing a roast. Very similar.
- X-Istence 7y agoWorked at a company where the old school cable runners would still use wax string to lace the cables... That was until the heat from the exhaust from the servers started to melt the wax and it became a really nasty sticky mess.
- esaym 7y agoWow never thought I'd see this on HN! I paid $20k to go to tech school for aviation maintenance. After doing that for 3 years I figured it just wasn't for me and I decided to go to university for computer science. But before my last day of being an aircraft mechanic, I "accidentally" brought home a roll of high temp (non-waxed) lacing tape because I was already in the habit of using string to tie cables together (common in aviation). Figured if I paid $20k to go to school that I better at least find some other use for it. So far it is just cable lacing. I'm the only one I know that does it instead of zip ties. All kinds of random stuff in my house and on my cars is laced. Imgur proof: https://imgur.com/a/NLrJzlj https://imgur.com/a/NLrJzlj
- zrobotics 7y agoNeat! I don't tend to lace cables regularly, but it is my preferred method of wire management for old motorcycles. I use leather lacing, and it's mainly an aesthetic thing, since zip ties look so out of place, and the leather looks great w/ cloth wiring. My only gripe is how long it takes, especially if changes need to be made in a run. Are you aware of any good techniques or instructional materials to help with lacing faster? Back in HS I worked line service, and I remember our mechanic being able to lace wires at least 2-3x faster than I can. Is this like welding, where it's all about time spent practicing, or are there tricks & techniques I'm unaware of?
- esaym 7y agoSure. I don't do the method were you use one continuous piece of string all the way down the bundle as you can see (which wastes string imo). I think the instructions for doing the individual bindings was something like a "double half hitch with a lock knot" with a really long picture series of how to do that. I memorized it and could do it, but it was slow. An electrician spotted me once tying cables (slowly, and somewhat of a no-no for regular mechanics; but I didn't care) and showed me the "quick" way which is also apparently the same knot: https://imgur.com/a/TZFeBvb https://imgur.com/a/TZFeBvb Basically make a loop and feed it under the bundle. Then pull one free leg of the string through that loop partway (to make another loop in the loop). Then feed the other leg through that loop. That's the "half hitch" part of the knot which allows you to cinch down on the bundle without it loosening back. Then for the "lock knot" part, its a regular square knot which is two overhand knots that are tied right over left and then another one opposite (left over right). Once tightened it should form a small square (can't really see on my version). I only showed one overhand knot in my pictures (forgot the other one). edit: I think the knot in question is a "clove hitch": https://imgur.com/a/9rgk9n2 https://imgur.com/a/9rgk9n2
- mdip 7y agoThanks for the reminder. I have a sprawling mess in my basement and have only done wire lacing once (it's trivial to do well, a little harder to do obnoxiously well) and had forgotten about lacing them -- it's perfect! I used to work in Telecom and I remember when I first saw a monstrosity of laced wiring. This was at a (staffed) phone switch (raised floor, all hardware and technicians) so there was an amazing amount of wiring and I recall admiring the cleanliness of everything (there's a point at which the various colors of running wire, perfectly laced, is a very interesting piece of modern art). The wires weren't done by an amateur; each cable was lined up -- it looked as though there was a harness specifically designed for the bundles of wires that placed them perfectly parallel (or perpendicular when one ran off of the bundle). I made an off-hand remark about how long it must have taken to do all of that and was informed from the ops guy that they had just completed it last month. Prior, it had been partially laced, partially tied and generally "clean-but-haphazard", however, the switch had just brought in a new manager and somewhere between his first and second day he went on tear through the switch and demanded it be corrected on the short-order. So over about 8 months, every run was separated and laced[0]. Frankly, I would have been proud if any of my personal equipment were as well maintained as the "before" pictures, but the difference after lacing made the "before" look like spaghetti by comparison. The benefits are huge, though, for anyone who has encountered a run of wire with heavy-duty zip-ties and a misplaced set of clippers[1]. You can lace wires about as fast as a zip-tie if you're only aiming for "good enough", but you can rip through and redo laced wires with a car key or something that is far less likely to slice a wire. [0] ...according to the tech, "Twice"; they really didn't like the new manager. I've never seen a lace job this excellent -- it wasn't a bundle of clean wires, it was a perfect rectangle of multiple laced wires laced together with each loop/knot hit with a low-temp heat gun to strengthen the knot (which -- while I can't speak to how much value it really adds strength-wise, it had the effect of making the looped/knotted spots look really straight and clean. [1] I must own thirty pairs of clippers of various sizes/shapes purchased for the sole purpose of cutting zip ties. I'm sure they're all in a container ... somewhere ... all together. I don't think I've ever had one available to me when I actually need it.
- raldi 7y agoAnyone know why the "WRONG" example in this diagram is bad? https://i1.wp.com/cdn.makezine.com/uploads/2009/07/cablelacing6b.gif https://i1.wp.com/cdn.makezine.com/uploads/2009/07/cablelaci...
- esaym 7y agoA marline hitch vs. a half hitch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hitch_knots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hitch_knots
- pbhjpbhj 7y agoI think it's a knotting thing, the A knots will slip as you try to hold it fast - the knot will move down the page initially. The way the cord presses the earlier piece down in B means the knot won't move [so easily] as you hold it under tension.
- Groxx 7y agoDon't they both press down though? One presses down on the loop ends (A), the other presses down on the strand between loops (B). The more I try to figure out why B would be better, the more it feels like pressing down on the loops would be better (ensuring more of the loop is in contact with the thing being wrapped). e.g. https://www.dropbox.com/s/ghu5f8m1nsu7kve/wrapping.jpg https://www.dropbox.com/s/ghu5f8m1nsu7kve/wrapping.jpg Exaggerated, sure, but still feels odd.
- mtreis86 7y agoNo, the A knot has the down-the-cable runs overlapping the around-the-cable loops. Which means if one of the down-the-cable runs lets go, it loses tension on the next. In B, since the around-the-cable loops are overlapping the down-the-cable, if tension is lost at one end there is less tension lost at the next step. The friction in A when the end is loose is much less than the friction in B, due to the entry point in B being under pressure of the loop around the cable.
- deleted 7y ago
- ComputerGuru 7y agoLetting me know I’m almost out of free articles before even letting me see my first one is rather pointless. How I hate overlays! (I love “behind the overlay” on desktop browsers. Overlays are so much more annoying on mobile.)
- fit2rule 7y agoI cut my teeth as a teenager on an electronics assembly line by wiring up cable harnesses for marine operations, and the first 50 I made (out of about 1,000) were all rejected because I couldn't get the lacing right. Spent a week learning to do it properly, and can still do it in my sleep. Its a very easy skill you'll never forget once you get it done (and approved on the production line..) IMHO, the wax string in my toolbox is among the most important of devices, since it keeps things very neat and tidy. To the point I find myself now as a grey-beard, teaching the kids how to do it.