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I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default h

I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default helpful, meetings and challenges and interviews. I saw people worse than me refused help. I saw real time as people who knew me for years or life, who respected me and my career choice helping others, decided I was a lazy mooch who wasn't trying hard enough, was somehow responsible for my situation, and needed to "take responsibility" but nobody could describe WHAT that meant or HOW to do it. It was all so soul crushing and and literally ruined my life and future. I didn't do it. It was done to me. But blame and dismissal is easier for people. Contrast that with a former friend who had a similar medical issue in Europe. He wasn't bankrupted by medical costs, had social support for basic living as he was treated and recovered long term, had social education which allowed him to go back to university and obtain useful skills for his new situation. He now has a thriving business and as full a life as anyone could expect. Because he had help and options when he needed them in the beginning. Having that help and those options also made it easier for him to hold into his relationships because he was able to stay IN life and move forward. People can only take so much loss. Yeah I resent it. I resent being born here where I hear how amazing it is every day and how Europe is a socialist dystopia (I've lived there, the people telling me this have not and I'd happily fufill their "get out of you don't like it" wishes if I could) and the usual middle American beliefs, but we don't even have the most basic of social protections. I resent being blamed. I resent that even seeing this happen people still decided just what the Murican culture told them to decide about me because its easier to live with ones own fears that way. I resent having my life end in such a miserable and painful mess when I earned more and did what I was supposed to. America has a real empathy problem. People won't treat others as they wish to be treated when they are in need. Being poor is an infection and they avoid you. It's not a need they reach out to solve. And being poor is very expensive. A society of individualists is no society at all.

ThJ 7y ago
I'm from Norway. The backside of the medal when it comes to welfare services of that kind is the rather humiliating process you have to go through to actually get them. I've heard many stories about this. Yes, you'll get help if you do as they say, but it can feel very invasive at times. Some clueless bureaucrat will need to know about your finances and all your medical issues, and if it's not a clear-cut case, these clueless people will need to form opinions about how sick you are and how much help you need, and they'll often be wrong, and you'll have to fight them. It's better than the alternative, of course, but it's not anywhere near being the utopia that U.S. liberals like to describe it as. They're just using us to promote their own agenda. With that said, I do find myself thanking heaven that I was born in this country from time to time.
- tehjoker 7y ago
  For what it's worth, the ambition on the left over here (in the US) is to eliminate means testing for programs as much as possible. Healthcare problems? Free healthcare for everyone, no forms required. No home? Everyone gets a free / low cost house. We aim to do much more than that (give control of the economy to the people), but a robust welfare state is a good start.
  - roenxi 7y ago
    Those are compelling policy handwaves, but they really aren't going to the heart of the issue; which is someone in the broader conversation is basically misrepresenting reality to an astounding degree. The OECD reports that the US already spends more on healthcare per capita than any other nation by a substantial margin [0]. If it were believed that the ambitious left were going to implement free healthcare by bringing actual costs down into line with the rest of the world they could probably muster bipartisan support in a few years. But I bet their plans don't do that - eliminating means testing and more handouts are are just avoiding the real issues. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea...
    - kazagistar 7y ago
      That's exactly what the left wants, but they are facing bipartisan opposition from both Republicans and the majorty of centrist Democracts, both of whom receive large donations from the massive insurance industry that stands to lose everything.
    - pjc50 7y ago
      Giving it to everyone is the cost reduction. Leaving aside the question of old age and focusing on healthcare for people of working age, it is almost always cheaper to intervene earlier, and it helps people get back to work sooner. The case is even stronger in children where healthcare gets to determine if they get to live a decent life or not. Not to mention the benefits of time saved fighting back and forth over bills. A little bit of cost control pushing people onto the cheaper versions of insulin and things like that, in the manner of the UK National Institute for Clinical Excellence would help. This is also what every private insurer does, but people go bananas when contemplating the idea that the government might do it. Oh, and pharma marketing needs reining in. Some of the people who were marketing opiates should be jailed for the damage they've done.
rshlo 7y ago
Is sorry for your story and hope you can get well soon. In Israel we have a complete social coverage system and while not perfect at times, still provides much necessary help for those in need. Everytime I hear those stories about the US and medical system, I find it so hard to believe that a country with so much wealth and talent, still hadn't solved it.
boromisp 7y ago
A possible explanation for what you've experienced can be found in the just-world hypothesis [0], or in the belief that we live in a meritocracy. It is simply a foundational part of many people's worldview and nothing sort of experiencing similar traumas will make them reconsider. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis
- habnds 7y ago
  the just-world fallacy is a much more appropriate term. > the cognitive bias (or assumption) that a person's actions are inherently inclined to bring morally fair and fitting consequences to that person
  - pm90 7y ago
    Too many wealthy Americans suffer from some version of this. If you are born to wealth and grow up in wealth I guess your viewpoint of the universe won’t be a very accurate one. The disproportionate power that wealth grants to you then becomes even more destructive.
    - hestipod 7y ago
      What I cannot understand is how so many who suffer or struggle themselves attack fellow victims of this. Punching sideways or down i disgusting but it seems people are always looking for someone to blame and feel better than. This entire experience made me a misanthrope in large. I cannot every discuss my experience without a large number of attacks. It's comforting in a small way to see its not the majority in an international audience, but the American audience and many interactions are very hostile to someone else's pain.
  - marcus_holmes 7y ago
    the whole "prosperity" thing in modern US christianity associates with this: that if you're a good christian then god will make you wealthy. So therefore poor people are by definition unworthy, and wealthy people deserve their wealth. Note that this is in exact opposition to the wealth-heaven-camel-needle teaching in the bible. But that doesn't seem to matter. I'm sure there are interpretations that can make it go away.
majidazimi 7y ago
Where does this "Europe is awesome place to live" come from? I live in Germany, I got ear wax, the doctor waiting line was more than a week, so I developed tinnitus problem in a couple of days because of the wax (I don't use any headphone, I don't work in any noisy place so they don't have any effect). Insurance didn't cover medicine cost, so I paid it in cash while I was a student. Then the doctor said, it's too late and now I have to deal with a permanent tinnitus disorder for rest of my life. Do you see how awesome social security is in Europe? #StopSpreadingBullshit
- Sharlin 7y ago
  I'm sorry for your experience, but individual anecdotes are still not data.
  - majidazimi 7y ago
    Absolutely. What I meant is, shit happens all the time and you have to be prepared for that. Medication cost didn't cause me an issue, because I save my money quite aggressively. Being poor (by global standards) in a developed country heavily depends on person's lifestyle and decisions.
    - monetus 7y ago
      We have long wait times here in the U.S. too, at least in my experience. Two months for my last specialist, three weeks for a gp. This isn't a competition, so please don't take it that way; what I'm saying is that, despite your anecdote, I'm desperate for your healthcare (at least I think I am). I'm really curious if there are situations there, akin to those faced by the uninsured here, where corners are cut to save costs and the patient is left abandoned with a partial diagnosis / misdiagnosis.
      - orwin 7y ago
        Yes. French hospitals are underfunded and desesperate right now. They cut corners everytime they can, often on the back of nurses and mediacl assistants (who are wholly underpaid). Doctors are in an okay position, but some specialties lack specialists (especially in position where French medical education is really good, or very lucrative: i.e. surgery and anesthesia). We are far from a great medical country. I would happily give another 100€ per month to resolve those issue (and i do somehow with not asking for rembursment after consultations as i can easely afford those).
ijidak 7y ago
I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. Sadly, this ancient proverb is all too true. "All the brothers of a poor man hate him; How much more he is shunned by his friends! He pursues them with requests, but no one responds." Perhaps this article will help lift your spirits. http://bit.ly/2K6cVi5 http://bit.ly/2K6cVi5
- hestipod 7y ago
  Thanks for the kindness. I know there are good people out there. I know even being poor you can have joy. I have moments of it...my cat...photography...a small number of people I love...but its not enough when you can't get off Maslow's bottom rungs.
peteretep 7y ago
> America has a real empathy problem Hypothesis: that’s a function of some kind of Dunbar’s Law thing about the population size of a country. China and India as confirming examples, Japan as possibly an exception
- Mordisquitos 7y ago
  Not likely. Why would the groups subject to this effect be defined at the relatively artificial level of the nation state, and not at any other subnational (states or provinces) or supranational (EU or cultural sphere) level? Furthermore, watch out for confirmation bias: why is Japan a possible exception rather than a counterexample?
  - usrusr 7y ago
    Nation states provide a level of isolation that states or provinces don't, at all.
- usrusr 7y ago
  I share that suspicion: when you pay taxes for lifting the poor from your doorstep, it not only helps them, it also improves your own quality of life. The poor half a continent away, not so much. The same applies when you replace "paying taxes" with any other measures that reduce inequality, like a preference for level education access, a judicial system that prefers rehabilitation to vengeance, minimum health standards and so on. The dark side of this hypothesis is that it predicts that all those civilizatory achievements will increasingly come under pressure as national states become more open and integrated. It's almost a "national" and a "socialistic" idea, if you look at the terms without blending them into one. Which makes any meaningful discussion really hard.
CalRobert 7y ago
"get out of you don't like it" Nobody saying this has actually researched it. Too many people in the states are under the impression you can just up and move to a European country, no problem. One friendly-but-clueless acquaintance got flown back from Heathrow for asking the immigration officer about where to find jobs when she landed. If you don't/can't: * work in tech or medicine * go to university in Europe in a high-demand field * woo a European to marry you (a favoured option among women I knew in college, I notice - wonder why the gender disparity?) your options are pretty limited. There's the Dutch American Friendship Treaty and digging through the family bible for the birth cert of some Irish or Italian grandparent and that's about it.
- SomeOldThrow 7y ago
  > Nobody saying this has actually researched it Acknowledging this would be acknowledging how attractive alternatives are in comparison.
- Cthulhu_ 7y ago
  My girlfriend recently moved in with me so we've done a lot of research. It's relatively easy to move here from within Europe, as in, if you move from an EU country you have a right to work and live here, and you get the same rights and responsibilities as soon as you register yourself as living here. If you want to move here from outside of the EU it's a whole other matter though. It boils down to two things though: Can you look after yourself (for example have a job ready; just as long as you won't come here expecting a handout from the government), and can you integrate (you have to do a language and culture certification in your country of origin).
  - briandear 7y ago
    How ironic that the “progressive” European welfare states have highly restricted immigration and America naturalizes more new citizens each year than the rest of the world combined. The US also allows illegal aliens de facto residence assuming they haven’t committed a significant crime. We even provide free education. If those illegal aliens have a child in the US, we give that child citizenship and subsequently make the child’s family eligible for welfare benefits in the interests of helping the American citizen child. I was a legal resident of France and two of my children were born there and they didn’t get French citizenship, nor even automatic permanent residence. It is impossible to have open borders, provide amnesty for 20+ million illegal aliens, birthright citizenship while simultaneously having European style welfare. There is a very good reason EU immigration is so hard, the system would collapse if US style immigration liberalization existed. You can’t have nearly open borders and free everything. As far as a previous poster said about Americans and our empathy problem —- it is interesting that Republicans give to charity at a vastly higher rates than Democrats [1] and American charitable giving is vastly higher than the rest of the world. More of the donations for the Notre Dame restoration are coming from Americans than even the French. The US funds UN humanitarian orgs at profoundly higher levels than any other country. The US funded the Marshall Plan to help rebuild Europe from a war we didn’t even start. Where’s the European version of the Marshall Plan for former colonies of Africa? It seems like European countries are rather selfish when it comes to helping others while American is quite generous with foreign aid. Perhaps Europeans have an empathy problem? Or maybe a fiscal one? Suggesting that Americans don’t have empathy isn’t entirely accurate. Many of us just don’t want the government doing what private charity should do. I don’t want Congress deciding what causes are “worthy” — using human misery as a means for buying votes. I’m sorry for people who have bad luck, but where is their family? Their church? Their local community? How is someone outside of my community or family circle my problem? And, the US does have welfare programs. Medicaid exists and serves the poor. I know, I once was on Medicaid for a year. Food stamps also exist: I know, I used that program in New Jersey for about 6 months. I am not sure what else we should be providing as a government. Government isn’t a charity and nor should it be. Certainly it should provide a minimal safety net to ensure people aren’t starving in the streets, but charity is really about the local community, local organizations, and local priorities. And giving to charity should be voluntary, not compelled at the point of a gun like taxes are. I highly resent someone that has been unemployed for literally years while I took whatever shitty jobs I could find to stay off the street. I also resent people that never cared about buying health insurance (for example the young and healthy that tend to avoid buying insurance,) then they get a critical illness and go bankrupt and blame “the system” when they chose not to buy cheap disability or health insurance while they had the chance, instead buying plenty of the proverbial avocado toast or #yolo-ing through social media while the rest of us were, as they say, “adulting.” The other problem I have is when people claim that medical bills “bankrupted” them. Do we know what that means? That means they didn’t have to pay any of that money back. The debts were discharged by bankruptcy. It doesn’t mean they go to debtors prison, nor does it mean they even lose their primary residence. It just means their credit is ruined for a few years. That just means they can’t borrow money for a few years; they aren’t thrown into some Dickens novel and forced to beg on the street for more porridge. It means all of their debts are discharged and they get to start over and rebuild. I am pretty sure that most people don’t know what bankruptcy actually means, they just throw the word around like it’s some kind of bomb, hoping that enough people are scared and horrified by it that they agree to raise taxes in such a way to prevent people from ever failing — but then also never succeeding. America is a place we’re you can start over, you can rebuild, and bankruptcy isn’t some life sentence dooming you to poverty. In fact, it’s possible to have multiple bankruptcies and still become president of the United States.
idighkwjt 7y ago
Okay, so I’ll assume that you have good and valid reasons for not liking all these things about America. Are they new things? Has America been all about this for a couple hundred years? It that how she was founded and how she survives? If you disagree with the foundational principals of the nation, you can leave. As you say, there are other countries that do things the way you want. You don’t have to fight against our way of life.
- H8crilA 7y ago
  FYI this was everyone's way of life in the past. There was no public health care nor public pensions. Then, some nations changed, and some didn't. Who's right - I don't know, but this surely is not an American thing. It's just an old thing.
  - idighkwjt 7y ago
    That’s just not true. The fact that there are no countries that have been doing this for hundreds of years does not mean none have tried. Look it up. Plenty have, and it meant their downfall. Now they’re not around anymore. You can start with the USSR, various incantations in present day Germany, and many more. It’s not a new idea, just a bad one.
crankylinuxuser 7y ago
I've seen the propaganda of "communist countries kill X people". Yet in capitalist societies, the blame is never on government, and is put squarely on the individual. It's YOUR fault you're sick. It's YOUR fault you're lazy. It's YOUR fault blaa, YOUR FAULT... The costs of capitalism as a form of governmental policy are just as hidden as the externalized costs in everything around us. When do we start counting deaths due to extreme poverty? When do we count deaths due to 'Corporate Death Panels' (aka: insurance companies), and not having socialized medicine? When do we count the deaths of 'spreading democracy' via hegemonic expansion? When do we start counting illness and deaths resulting in subsidizing diabetes-inducing foods (corn, wheat, sugar, etc)? When do we start counting the extreme losses incurred (deaths, property, etc) about ignoring climate change?
mrhappyunhappy 7y ago
Sorry to hear about what you went or are currently going through. The medical insurance situation in US is beyond f’ed up. Most people who can afford it just don’t think about how terrible it really is. It takes some serious illness or accident to wake people up to the insane situation that is US healthcare. It sounds like you are well aware of that, unfortunately. I grew up in a communist country and for all the shit communism gets, I was never denied medical care or could not afford it. In US I made above average income and yet the cost of healthcare was far from unnoticeable, especially with deductibles, excluded procedures and ridiculous billing free for all. I have some f’ed up stories, but for another day. I now live in Japan. I still pay a fair bit for insurance, but I can feel very confident that in a case of a serious injury, illness or extended hospital stay, I will not go bankrupt. In fact, it’ll be like nothing changed - financially. I used to lose sleep over thinking about insurance issues in US, but now I never think about any of that. It’s such a huge relief to focus on other more important things in life. But, Murcia, they tell you it’s the best place, if you kindly forget about the healthcare issues. Don’t get me wrong, there are many wonderful things about the good ol US of A, but healthcare is not one of them.
Lucadg 7y ago
It's really hard for me to understand how this system makes sense. I get it: if you make it easy for people they get lazy. But on the other hand you are making it too hard for productive people too and many will leave or not even come. What's the net result? I grew up in Europe thinking USA was a great place to live. Now I wouldn't live there unless some very clear guarantees were made. It scares me. And I lived in countries many Americans would consider scary.
gridlockd 7y ago
> Contrast that with a former friend who had a similar medical issue in Europe. I also have "a friend from Europe", he's on government disability and it makes for a very basic living. Furthermore, should he be able to find work, most of that money will be taken away. He wishes he would've bought private insurance when he still had the chance. Two guys from Europe aren't statistically relevant, of course. > America has a real empathy problem. People won't treat others as they wish to be treated when they are in need. Being poor is an infection and they avoid you. It's not a need they reach out to solve. And being poor is very expensive. A society of individualists is no society at all. I must ask you this: Have you reached out to private charity and been "denied"? Until then, I would not make this claim. There's a difference between a society not caring for another and a society being forced into paying for one another's care through the government. The latter has nothing to do with empathy. Furthermore, US welfare spending is not substantially different from that of most European countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_welfare_spending#As_a_percentage_of_GDP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_we... Perhaps the US government is worse at spending that money than other governments. The healthcare system certainly is less efficient. That too has nothing to do with empathy. Even if the US population was against welfare spending, which I don't think it is, the spending is still there. Lastly, in any welfare system, some people will "slip through the cracks". Reform is possible, perhaps you can find some meaning in advocating for that, identifying what exactly went wrong in your case and what would need to change.
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago
  "I must ask you this: Have you reached out to private charity and been "denied"? Until then, I would not make this claim." Does the homeless begging for the spare change of private citizens count? I see this all the time.
jamisteven 7y ago
You left out many important details in this story: 1. Did you have health insurance? If not, why? 2. What was your job previously? 3. Who signed the paper relinquishing the hospital of all responsibility of botching the surgery?
- hestipod 7y ago
  Important details to someone looking to twist things to blame me for the outcome. But I will answer even though I know your questions aren't meant with any good intent AND they display victim blaming from the outset. But I have a small hope you can learn empathy. Frankly responses like this, which are the bulk I have experienced IRL...are why I am so depressed and have no hope...and reinforce my view of the empathy problem. 1. Yes I had health insurance, lost it when I lost my career as a result of the surgeries. This wasn't some case of someone refusing to get it and then getting burned so this THEIR fault as you infer. 2. Public safety helping others...I don't want to get more specific due to privacy...but this is also irrelevant. Whether unemployed, with a respected job, or with a high paying job...nobody deserves to be left behind by society. 3. I signed the paper. The paper you HAVE to sign to get the surgery you are up for. I know what you are trying to say with that and I find it cruel and lacking in the smallest compassion. You have no choice. Sign or leave. It's another part of the problem. I won't go back and forth with you. Probably shouldn't even have answered these. But there it is. Now you can tell me why I am wrong and what I NEED to do now to fix it. It's a script I've heard 1000 times. But it's never true.
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    In EU you have a right to amend an unconscionable contract. People use it all the time to not sign stupid clauses in bank. Additionally, a hospital here cannot disclaim health damage (and other damages) due to poorly performed procedure. The thing is, sometimes even well performed procedures are not enough. Finally, since critical health care is insured by state and therefore stupid charges like in the US rarely happen, but you might get kicked out slightly early and get poorer bed and care without extras. Acceptable still. People in the US just really do not want to believe luck is a factor. Victim is always blamed one way or another. Even if any of the 3 above was not met, the follow up question of "why" often reveals "I couldn't afford anything better" or "I was not given advice". Someone who is ignorant is not too be blamed, people are ignorant of all things before they actually happen to them.
celticmusic 7y ago
I think there's a lot of nuance that gets missed, but before I get into it, a few things about me. 1. I grew up extremely poor. By poor I mean living in a pup-tent down by the river. Going to school with duct tape around my shoes to hold them together. eating beans and oatmeal for 3 meals a day months at a time. Having 3 sets of clothes, all of them involving sweats, and recycling them throughout the week. You get the picture. 2. I agree that we need the safety nets you're speaking of. 3. I turned 40 this year. Long enough to get more of an objective perspective on my childhoold than could have happened 10 and 20 years ago. 4. I'm Native American, as is my mother. And now having said that. There are many poor people who are poor because of the decisions they make. And there are many poor people who are that way due to circumstances beyond their control. Both sides of this debate are right, neither side is actually interested in reality. Looking back on my childhood, my step-father was not of average intelligence. He was, without a doubt, the dumbest person in our household, and I think at some point he realized that. This man would make piss-poor decisions. I don't want to get into specifics, but as an adult looking back, a large part of our problems were stupid shit this man would do. I remember one job he had in which he was making decent money. By decent money, I mean we could afford to order pizza for the family every other friday, and for us it was amazing. We felt rich just being able to do that. It didn't last for more than 6 months because he's an idiot. My mother was sent to a boarding school at the age of 5 where she was beaten and raped until she married at 16 to get away from the school (no HS diploma). I've heard her tell stories and I know I haven't heard all of it. They would put the children into the showers and tell them to cover themselves with soap. If they weren't white enough, they would strap them with a belt under those showers until they were. My entire extended family went to those boarding schools (my grandmother had 16 children and 3 step-children), but my mother and 1 of my uncles went at a very young age. The way my mother tells it, that school eventually got shut down when the child of a senator wanted to go to the school to be with a friend and the child got beat. I can't vouch for the accuracy, but that's the story she tells. When I was in HS I have a vivid memory of walking in on my mother crying and asking her what was going on. She started talking about many of the things she never revealed to us as children. And I remember crying because I knew she was hurting and I had the wisdom to understand there was nothing I could do. Even now, years later, I get emotional just thinking about it. ---- So with all that being said, I want to address 3 different ideas that often get spoken about. 1. poor people bring it on themselves Yes they do. very often. 2. Poor people are poor due to circumstances outside their control. Absolutely. It does happen, and we need safety nets for it. 3. People who are not poor are just lucky. yes and no. Here's where my luck ran. - I'm pretty smart - My step-father was very abusive and it caused me to close in on myself. Due to this I discovered reading. through reading I discovered a love for sci-fi. Through sci-fi I discovered a love of technology. And through that love of technology I chose CS in college. I also discovered I like math and double majored in CS and Math. - I went all-in with software development. It was a passion. This helped me start self-identifying as a software developer and not that abused poor kid. I would eventually realize just how big of a deal that is. - My mother pushed education on us as hard as she could. It was the one thing she would never budge on. She knew how much she missed out on. My mother was not dumb, just uneducated. - My childhood taught me that decision making is an important life skill. I'm damned good at it because as early as middle school I had learned that lesson, and have fostered it all these years. Here's where my luck didn't run. I tend to make good decisions. That's all me. I work my ass off. That's all me. I choose not to allow other people to affect me. Yes I've been called a red N-word in my life. Those sorts of things never had any effect on my life, I simply stay away from those people. When you allow these people to affect you to the point that you're spending energy on them, they win. My overarching point is this: This debate gets super old because most of the people involved in it aren't interested in reality. I've lived and seen both sides of it and I get really tired of seeing these same simplistic arguments argued over. Both sides are right. and wrong.

ThJ 7y ago

I'm from Norway. The backside of the medal when it comes to welfare services of that kind is the rather humiliating process you have to go through to actually get them. I've heard many stories about this. Yes, you'll get help if you do as they say, but it can feel very invasive at times. Some clueless bureaucrat will need to know about your finances and all your medical issues, and if it's not a clear-cut case, these clueless people will need to form opinions about how sick you are and how much help you need, and they'll often be wrong, and you'll have to fight them. It's better than the alternative, of course, but it's not anywhere near being the utopia that U.S. liberals like to describe it as. They're just using us to promote their own agenda. With that said, I do find myself thanking heaven that I was born in this country from time to time.

tehjoker 7y ago
For what it's worth, the ambition on the left over here (in the US) is to eliminate means testing for programs as much as possible. Healthcare problems? Free healthcare for everyone, no forms required. No home? Everyone gets a free / low cost house. We aim to do much more than that (give control of the economy to the people), but a robust welfare state is a good start.
- roenxi 7y ago
  Those are compelling policy handwaves, but they really aren't going to the heart of the issue; which is someone in the broader conversation is basically misrepresenting reality to an astounding degree. The OECD reports that the US already spends more on healthcare per capita than any other nation by a substantial margin [0]. If it were believed that the ambitious left were going to implement free healthcare by bringing actual costs down into line with the rest of the world they could probably muster bipartisan support in a few years. But I bet their plans don't do that - eliminating means testing and more handouts are are just avoiding the real issues. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea...
  - kazagistar 7y ago
    That's exactly what the left wants, but they are facing bipartisan opposition from both Republicans and the majorty of centrist Democracts, both of whom receive large donations from the massive insurance industry that stands to lose everything.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    Giving it to everyone is the cost reduction. Leaving aside the question of old age and focusing on healthcare for people of working age, it is almost always cheaper to intervene earlier, and it helps people get back to work sooner. The case is even stronger in children where healthcare gets to determine if they get to live a decent life or not. Not to mention the benefits of time saved fighting back and forth over bills. A little bit of cost control pushing people onto the cheaper versions of insulin and things like that, in the manner of the UK National Institute for Clinical Excellence would help. This is also what every private insurer does, but people go bananas when contemplating the idea that the government might do it. Oh, and pharma marketing needs reining in. Some of the people who were marketing opiates should be jailed for the damage they've done.

rshlo 7y ago

Is sorry for your story and hope you can get well soon. In Israel we have a complete social coverage system and while not perfect at times, still provides much necessary help for those in need. Everytime I hear those stories about the US and medical system, I find it so hard to believe that a country with so much wealth and talent, still hadn't solved it.

boromisp 7y ago

A possible explanation for what you've experienced can be found in the just-world hypothesis [0], or in the belief that we live in a meritocracy. It is simply a foundational part of many people's worldview and nothing sort of experiencing similar traumas will make them reconsider. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

habnds 7y ago
the just-world fallacy is a much more appropriate term. > the cognitive bias (or assumption) that a person's actions are inherently inclined to bring morally fair and fitting consequences to that person
- pm90 7y ago
  Too many wealthy Americans suffer from some version of this. If you are born to wealth and grow up in wealth I guess your viewpoint of the universe won’t be a very accurate one. The disproportionate power that wealth grants to you then becomes even more destructive.
  - hestipod 7y ago
    What I cannot understand is how so many who suffer or struggle themselves attack fellow victims of this. Punching sideways or down i disgusting but it seems people are always looking for someone to blame and feel better than. This entire experience made me a misanthrope in large. I cannot every discuss my experience without a large number of attacks. It's comforting in a small way to see its not the majority in an international audience, but the American audience and many interactions are very hostile to someone else's pain.
- marcus_holmes 7y ago
  the whole "prosperity" thing in modern US christianity associates with this: that if you're a good christian then god will make you wealthy. So therefore poor people are by definition unworthy, and wealthy people deserve their wealth. Note that this is in exact opposition to the wealth-heaven-camel-needle teaching in the bible. But that doesn't seem to matter. I'm sure there are interpretations that can make it go away.

majidazimi 7y ago

Where does this "Europe is awesome place to live" come from? I live in Germany, I got ear wax, the doctor waiting line was more than a week, so I developed tinnitus problem in a couple of days because of the wax (I don't use any headphone, I don't work in any noisy place so they don't have any effect). Insurance didn't cover medicine cost, so I paid it in cash while I was a student. Then the doctor said, it's too late and now I have to deal with a permanent tinnitus disorder for rest of my life. Do you see how awesome social security is in Europe? #StopSpreadingBullshit

Sharlin 7y ago
I'm sorry for your experience, but individual anecdotes are still not data.
- majidazimi 7y ago
  Absolutely. What I meant is, shit happens all the time and you have to be prepared for that. Medication cost didn't cause me an issue, because I save my money quite aggressively. Being poor (by global standards) in a developed country heavily depends on person's lifestyle and decisions.
  - monetus 7y ago
    We have long wait times here in the U.S. too, at least in my experience. Two months for my last specialist, three weeks for a gp. This isn't a competition, so please don't take it that way; what I'm saying is that, despite your anecdote, I'm desperate for your healthcare (at least I think I am). I'm really curious if there are situations there, akin to those faced by the uninsured here, where corners are cut to save costs and the patient is left abandoned with a partial diagnosis / misdiagnosis.
    - orwin 7y ago
      Yes. French hospitals are underfunded and desesperate right now. They cut corners everytime they can, often on the back of nurses and mediacl assistants (who are wholly underpaid). Doctors are in an okay position, but some specialties lack specialists (especially in position where French medical education is really good, or very lucrative: i.e. surgery and anesthesia). We are far from a great medical country. I would happily give another 100€ per month to resolve those issue (and i do somehow with not asking for rembursment after consultations as i can easely afford those).

ijidak 7y ago

I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. Sadly, this ancient proverb is all too true. "All the brothers of a poor man hate him; How much more he is shunned by his friends! He pursues them with requests, but no one responds." Perhaps this article will help lift your spirits. http://bit.ly/2K6cVi5 http://bit.ly/2K6cVi5

hestipod 7y ago
Thanks for the kindness. I know there are good people out there. I know even being poor you can have joy. I have moments of it...my cat...photography...a small number of people I love...but its not enough when you can't get off Maslow's bottom rungs.

peteretep 7y ago

> America has a real empathy problem Hypothesis: that’s a function of some kind of Dunbar’s Law thing about the population size of a country. China and India as confirming examples, Japan as possibly an exception

Mordisquitos 7y ago
Not likely. Why would the groups subject to this effect be defined at the relatively artificial level of the nation state, and not at any other subnational (states or provinces) or supranational (EU or cultural sphere) level? Furthermore, watch out for confirmation bias: why is Japan a possible exception rather than a counterexample?
- usrusr 7y ago
  Nation states provide a level of isolation that states or provinces don't, at all.
usrusr 7y ago
I share that suspicion: when you pay taxes for lifting the poor from your doorstep, it not only helps them, it also improves your own quality of life. The poor half a continent away, not so much. The same applies when you replace "paying taxes" with any other measures that reduce inequality, like a preference for level education access, a judicial system that prefers rehabilitation to vengeance, minimum health standards and so on. The dark side of this hypothesis is that it predicts that all those civilizatory achievements will increasingly come under pressure as national states become more open and integrated. It's almost a "national" and a "socialistic" idea, if you look at the terms without blending them into one. Which makes any meaningful discussion really hard.

CalRobert 7y ago

"get out of you don't like it" Nobody saying this has actually researched it. Too many people in the states are under the impression you can just up and move to a European country, no problem. One friendly-but-clueless acquaintance got flown back from Heathrow for asking the immigration officer about where to find jobs when she landed. If you don't/can't: * work in tech or medicine * go to university in Europe in a high-demand field * woo a European to marry you (a favoured option among women I knew in college, I notice - wonder why the gender disparity?) your options are pretty limited. There's the Dutch American Friendship Treaty and digging through the family bible for the birth cert of some Irish or Italian grandparent and that's about it.

SomeOldThrow 7y ago
> Nobody saying this has actually researched it Acknowledging this would be acknowledging how attractive alternatives are in comparison.
Cthulhu_ 7y ago
My girlfriend recently moved in with me so we've done a lot of research. It's relatively easy to move here from within Europe, as in, if you move from an EU country you have a right to work and live here, and you get the same rights and responsibilities as soon as you register yourself as living here. If you want to move here from outside of the EU it's a whole other matter though. It boils down to two things though: Can you look after yourself (for example have a job ready; just as long as you won't come here expecting a handout from the government), and can you integrate (you have to do a language and culture certification in your country of origin).
- briandear 7y ago
  How ironic that the “progressive” European welfare states have highly restricted immigration and America naturalizes more new citizens each year than the rest of the world combined. The US also allows illegal aliens de facto residence assuming they haven’t committed a significant crime. We even provide free education. If those illegal aliens have a child in the US, we give that child citizenship and subsequently make the child’s family eligible for welfare benefits in the interests of helping the American citizen child. I was a legal resident of France and two of my children were born there and they didn’t get French citizenship, nor even automatic permanent residence. It is impossible to have open borders, provide amnesty for 20+ million illegal aliens, birthright citizenship while simultaneously having European style welfare. There is a very good reason EU immigration is so hard, the system would collapse if US style immigration liberalization existed. You can’t have nearly open borders and free everything. As far as a previous poster said about Americans and our empathy problem —- it is interesting that Republicans give to charity at a vastly higher rates than Democrats [1] and American charitable giving is vastly higher than the rest of the world. More of the donations for the Notre Dame restoration are coming from Americans than even the French. The US funds UN humanitarian orgs at profoundly higher levels than any other country. The US funded the Marshall Plan to help rebuild Europe from a war we didn’t even start. Where’s the European version of the Marshall Plan for former colonies of Africa? It seems like European countries are rather selfish when it comes to helping others while American is quite generous with foreign aid. Perhaps Europeans have an empathy problem? Or maybe a fiscal one? Suggesting that Americans don’t have empathy isn’t entirely accurate. Many of us just don’t want the government doing what private charity should do. I don’t want Congress deciding what causes are “worthy” — using human misery as a means for buying votes. I’m sorry for people who have bad luck, but where is their family? Their church? Their local community? How is someone outside of my community or family circle my problem? And, the US does have welfare programs. Medicaid exists and serves the poor. I know, I once was on Medicaid for a year. Food stamps also exist: I know, I used that program in New Jersey for about 6 months. I am not sure what else we should be providing as a government. Government isn’t a charity and nor should it be. Certainly it should provide a minimal safety net to ensure people aren’t starving in the streets, but charity is really about the local community, local organizations, and local priorities. And giving to charity should be voluntary, not compelled at the point of a gun like taxes are. I highly resent someone that has been unemployed for literally years while I took whatever shitty jobs I could find to stay off the street. I also resent people that never cared about buying health insurance (for example the young and healthy that tend to avoid buying insurance,) then they get a critical illness and go bankrupt and blame “the system” when they chose not to buy cheap disability or health insurance while they had the chance, instead buying plenty of the proverbial avocado toast or #yolo-ing through social media while the rest of us were, as they say, “adulting.” The other problem I have is when people claim that medical bills “bankrupted” them. Do we know what that means? That means they didn’t have to pay any of that money back. The debts were discharged by bankruptcy. It doesn’t mean they go to debtors prison, nor does it mean they even lose their primary residence. It just means their credit is ruined for a few years. That just means they can’t borrow money for a few years; they aren’t thrown into some Dickens novel and forced to beg on the street for more porridge. It means all of their debts are discharged and they get to start over and rebuild. I am pretty sure that most people don’t know what bankruptcy actually means, they just throw the word around like it’s some kind of bomb, hoping that enough people are scared and horrified by it that they agree to raise taxes in such a way to prevent people from ever failing — but then also never succeeding. America is a place we’re you can start over, you can rebuild, and bankruptcy isn’t some life sentence dooming you to poverty. In fact, it’s possible to have multiple bankruptcies and still become president of the United States.

idighkwjt 7y ago

Okay, so I’ll assume that you have good and valid reasons for not liking all these things about America. Are they new things? Has America been all about this for a couple hundred years? It that how she was founded and how she survives? If you disagree with the foundational principals of the nation, you can leave. As you say, there are other countries that do things the way you want. You don’t have to fight against our way of life.

H8crilA 7y ago
FYI this was everyone's way of life in the past. There was no public health care nor public pensions. Then, some nations changed, and some didn't. Who's right - I don't know, but this surely is not an American thing. It's just an old thing.
- idighkwjt 7y ago
  That’s just not true. The fact that there are no countries that have been doing this for hundreds of years does not mean none have tried. Look it up. Plenty have, and it meant their downfall. Now they’re not around anymore. You can start with the USSR, various incantations in present day Germany, and many more. It’s not a new idea, just a bad one.

crankylinuxuser 7y ago

I've seen the propaganda of "communist countries kill X people". Yet in capitalist societies, the blame is never on government, and is put squarely on the individual. It's YOUR fault you're sick. It's YOUR fault you're lazy. It's YOUR fault blaa, YOUR FAULT... The costs of capitalism as a form of governmental policy are just as hidden as the externalized costs in everything around us. When do we start counting deaths due to extreme poverty? When do we count deaths due to 'Corporate Death Panels' (aka: insurance companies), and not having socialized medicine? When do we count the deaths of 'spreading democracy' via hegemonic expansion? When do we start counting illness and deaths resulting in subsidizing diabetes-inducing foods (corn, wheat, sugar, etc)? When do we start counting the extreme losses incurred (deaths, property, etc) about ignoring climate change?

mrhappyunhappy 7y ago

Sorry to hear about what you went or are currently going through. The medical insurance situation in US is beyond f’ed up. Most people who can afford it just don’t think about how terrible it really is. It takes some serious illness or accident to wake people up to the insane situation that is US healthcare. It sounds like you are well aware of that, unfortunately. I grew up in a communist country and for all the shit communism gets, I was never denied medical care or could not afford it. In US I made above average income and yet the cost of healthcare was far from unnoticeable, especially with deductibles, excluded procedures and ridiculous billing free for all. I have some f’ed up stories, but for another day. I now live in Japan. I still pay a fair bit for insurance, but I can feel very confident that in a case of a serious injury, illness or extended hospital stay, I will not go bankrupt. In fact, it’ll be like nothing changed - financially. I used to lose sleep over thinking about insurance issues in US, but now I never think about any of that. It’s such a huge relief to focus on other more important things in life. But, Murcia, they tell you it’s the best place, if you kindly forget about the healthcare issues. Don’t get me wrong, there are many wonderful things about the good ol US of A, but healthcare is not one of them.

Lucadg 7y ago

It's really hard for me to understand how this system makes sense. I get it: if you make it easy for people they get lazy. But on the other hand you are making it too hard for productive people too and many will leave or not even come. What's the net result? I grew up in Europe thinking USA was a great place to live. Now I wouldn't live there unless some very clear guarantees were made. It scares me. And I lived in countries many Americans would consider scary.

gridlockd 7y ago

> Contrast that with a former friend who had a similar medical issue in Europe. I also have "a friend from Europe", he's on government disability and it makes for a very basic living. Furthermore, should he be able to find work, most of that money will be taken away. He wishes he would've bought private insurance when he still had the chance. Two guys from Europe aren't statistically relevant, of course. > America has a real empathy problem. People won't treat others as they wish to be treated when they are in need. Being poor is an infection and they avoid you. It's not a need they reach out to solve. And being poor is very expensive. A society of individualists is no society at all. I must ask you this: Have you reached out to private charity and been "denied"? Until then, I would not make this claim. There's a difference between a society not caring for another and a society being forced into paying for one another's care through the government. The latter has nothing to do with empathy. Furthermore, US welfare spending is not substantially different from that of most European countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_welfare_spending#As_a_percentage_of_GDP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_we... Perhaps the US government is worse at spending that money than other governments. The healthcare system certainly is less efficient. That too has nothing to do with empathy. Even if the US population was against welfare spending, which I don't think it is, the spending is still there. Lastly, in any welfare system, some people will "slip through the cracks". Reform is possible, perhaps you can find some meaning in advocating for that, identifying what exactly went wrong in your case and what would need to change.

SolaceQuantum 7y ago
"I must ask you this: Have you reached out to private charity and been "denied"? Until then, I would not make this claim." Does the homeless begging for the spare change of private citizens count? I see this all the time.

jamisteven 7y ago

You left out many important details in this story: 1. Did you have health insurance? If not, why? 2. What was your job previously? 3. Who signed the paper relinquishing the hospital of all responsibility of botching the surgery?

hestipod 7y ago
Important details to someone looking to twist things to blame me for the outcome. But I will answer even though I know your questions aren't meant with any good intent AND they display victim blaming from the outset. But I have a small hope you can learn empathy. Frankly responses like this, which are the bulk I have experienced IRL...are why I am so depressed and have no hope...and reinforce my view of the empathy problem. 1. Yes I had health insurance, lost it when I lost my career as a result of the surgeries. This wasn't some case of someone refusing to get it and then getting burned so this THEIR fault as you infer. 2. Public safety helping others...I don't want to get more specific due to privacy...but this is also irrelevant. Whether unemployed, with a respected job, or with a high paying job...nobody deserves to be left behind by society. 3. I signed the paper. The paper you HAVE to sign to get the surgery you are up for. I know what you are trying to say with that and I find it cruel and lacking in the smallest compassion. You have no choice. Sign or leave. It's another part of the problem. I won't go back and forth with you. Probably shouldn't even have answered these. But there it is. Now you can tell me why I am wrong and what I NEED to do now to fix it. It's a script I've heard 1000 times. But it's never true.
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  In EU you have a right to amend an unconscionable contract. People use it all the time to not sign stupid clauses in bank. Additionally, a hospital here cannot disclaim health damage (and other damages) due to poorly performed procedure. The thing is, sometimes even well performed procedures are not enough. Finally, since critical health care is insured by state and therefore stupid charges like in the US rarely happen, but you might get kicked out slightly early and get poorer bed and care without extras. Acceptable still. People in the US just really do not want to believe luck is a factor. Victim is always blamed one way or another. Even if any of the 3 above was not met, the follow up question of "why" often reveals "I couldn't afford anything better" or "I was not given advice". Someone who is ignorant is not too be blamed, people are ignorant of all things before they actually happen to them.

celticmusic 7y ago

I think there's a lot of nuance that gets missed, but before I get into it, a few things about me. 1. I grew up extremely poor. By poor I mean living in a pup-tent down by the river. Going to school with duct tape around my shoes to hold them together. eating beans and oatmeal for 3 meals a day months at a time. Having 3 sets of clothes, all of them involving sweats, and recycling them throughout the week. You get the picture. 2. I agree that we need the safety nets you're speaking of. 3. I turned 40 this year. Long enough to get more of an objective perspective on my childhoold than could have happened 10 and 20 years ago. 4. I'm Native American, as is my mother. And now having said that. There are many poor people who are poor because of the decisions they make. And there are many poor people who are that way due to circumstances beyond their control. Both sides of this debate are right, neither side is actually interested in reality. Looking back on my childhood, my step-father was not of average intelligence. He was, without a doubt, the dumbest person in our household, and I think at some point he realized that. This man would make piss-poor decisions. I don't want to get into specifics, but as an adult looking back, a large part of our problems were stupid shit this man would do. I remember one job he had in which he was making decent money. By decent money, I mean we could afford to order pizza for the family every other friday, and for us it was amazing. We felt rich just being able to do that. It didn't last for more than 6 months because he's an idiot. My mother was sent to a boarding school at the age of 5 where she was beaten and raped until she married at 16 to get away from the school (no HS diploma). I've heard her tell stories and I know I haven't heard all of it. They would put the children into the showers and tell them to cover themselves with soap. If they weren't white enough, they would strap them with a belt under those showers until they were. My entire extended family went to those boarding schools (my grandmother had 16 children and 3 step-children), but my mother and 1 of my uncles went at a very young age. The way my mother tells it, that school eventually got shut down when the child of a senator wanted to go to the school to be with a friend and the child got beat. I can't vouch for the accuracy, but that's the story she tells. When I was in HS I have a vivid memory of walking in on my mother crying and asking her what was going on. She started talking about many of the things she never revealed to us as children. And I remember crying because I knew she was hurting and I had the wisdom to understand there was nothing I could do. Even now, years later, I get emotional just thinking about it. ---- So with all that being said, I want to address 3 different ideas that often get spoken about. 1. poor people bring it on themselves Yes they do. very often. 2. Poor people are poor due to circumstances outside their control. Absolutely. It does happen, and we need safety nets for it. 3. People who are not poor are just lucky. yes and no. Here's where my luck ran. - I'm pretty smart - My step-father was very abusive and it caused me to close in on myself. Due to this I discovered reading. through reading I discovered a love for sci-fi. Through sci-fi I discovered a love of technology. And through that love of technology I chose CS in college. I also discovered I like math and double majored in CS and Math. - I went all-in with software development. It was a passion. This helped me start self-identifying as a software developer and not that abused poor kid. I would eventually realize just how big of a deal that is. - My mother pushed education on us as hard as she could. It was the one thing she would never budge on. She knew how much she missed out on. My mother was not dumb, just uneducated. - My childhood taught me that decision making is an important life skill. I'm damned good at it because as early as middle school I had learned that lesson, and have fostered it all these years. Here's where my luck didn't run. I tend to make good decisions. That's all me. I work my ass off. That's all me. I choose not to allow other people to affect me. Yes I've been called a red N-word in my life. Those sorts of things never had any effect on my life, I simply stay away from those people. When you allow these people to affect you to the point that you're spending energy on them, they win. My overarching point is this: This debate gets super old because most of the people involved in it aren't interested in reality. I've lived and seen both sides of it and I get really tired of seeing these same simplistic arguments argued over. Both sides are right. and wrong.