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A carbon tax will definitely mean less driving, flying, AC and meat. And this tax can make it possible to give out vouchers so vulnerable people who cannot affo

A carbon tax will definitely mean less driving, flying, AC and meat. And this tax can make it possible to give out vouchers so vulnerable people who cannot afford AC will not die in heat waves. So public policy can both incentivise everyone, not only activists to make the right choices. And it can save a lot of lives. If a suitably large group of people refuse to vote for politicians that don't support a carbon tax, cap-and-trade and other climate policies, it will lead to better outcomes.

learnstats2 7y ago
it will additionally incentivise AC manufacturers to find more carbon-efficient ways of cooling.
- smileysteve 7y ago
  If my electricity is nuclear, hydro, or wind then what Carbon is my ac inefficient at?
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    If your grid is connected to other grids, reducing your electric consumption will offset other carbon consumption.
- coredog64 7y ago
  AC is more efficient than heating since it is just moving energy around. And yet I don’t see wailing and gnashing of teeth about heating when it is frequently accomplished by burning oil in an on-site boiler. I get the sense that it comes down to places that use AC to make the 3 horrible months of summer livable vote the “wrong” way, while places that burn oil to make the 3 horrible months of winter livable vote the “right” way.
  - learnstats2 7y ago
    AC is more efficient than heating since it is just moving energy around. This claim is incompatible the Second Law of Thermodynamics: "Heat can never pass from a colder to a warmer body without some other change, connected therewith, occurring at the same time."
  - VBprogrammer 7y ago
    I think you are correct, there is definitely more stigma attached to AC than there is to heating. That said, I think the use of AC to the extent that staying inside for too long is uncomfortable without putting on more clothing is probably excessive, in the same way that setting the heating so that you need to wear shorts inside would be excessive. I think a lot of common sense has been lost in the design of homes. In the south of Europe homes are often comfortable with minimal or no air-conditioning because they have designs suitable for the climate. However, this means having small windows which aren't directly exposed to sunlight, tiled or marble floors etc.
  - briandear 7y ago
    Why is this being downvoted? Are those living in the liberal Northeast US ever proposing to reduce heating? Not much. Read the comments here — using “less AC” appears more frequently than “use less heat.” My point is that you have a point. Colder places lament the AC use of hotter places because they aren’t significantly proposing to limit their own quality of life, but the quality of life of people that don’t vote like them.
    - dashundchen 7y ago
      Many of the populous northern states (I am familiar with at least MA and NY) are heavily incentivizing weatherization, solar, and eliminating fossil fuels by switching to electric ground and air source heat pumps. Lowest hanging fruit is rural oil and propane heated houses but I expect natural gas to be targeted soon considering New York's climate goals. Combined with the efforts to switch the grid to renewables (net-zero electric grid by 2040 and net-zero altogether by 2050) this should greatly reduce emissions coming from eating. https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/6/20/18691058/new-york-green-new-deal-climate-change-cuomo https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/6/20/1869105... In fact, New York has aggressively limited the expansion of natural gas pipelines and recently both ConEd and National Grid, two major gas providers, said in response they will stop expanding their network. IMO New York's energy agencies are using this to see if they can fully eliminate fossil fuels from new development and start a phase out. https://enerknol.com/national-grid-stops-accepting-new-gas-service-requests-in-new-york-following-williams-pipeline-denial/ https://enerknol.com/national-grid-stops-accepting-new-gas-s... https://www.nyserda.ny.gov/All-Programs/Programs/Clean-Energy-Action-Plan https://www.nyserda.ny.gov/All-Programs/Programs/Clean-Energ...
- tsukikage 7y ago
  If your electricity comes from renewables, carbon tax shouldn't affect your AC use.
raxxorrax 7y ago
I would only vote for it if there are tax releases in other areas because tax rate is already enormous in my country. We already have an environmental tax that was used to stuff holes in social security systems. That said, binding environmental costs to actual prices would be terrific. But if households only generate 1/5 of overall emissions (depending on data and negligent of consumption), we might need other mechanisms. You can control many things through taxes, but I believe this to be inefficient. I would have no problem with paying double for fuel. But that isn't the reality for most people that are dependent on cars. Better than nothing perhaps, but I have very low expectations for this tax.
- Barrin92 7y ago
  > would only vote for it if there are tax releases in other areas because tax rate is already enormous in my country. A carbon divided, which is to say redistributing the income of the carbon tax equally and directly to the people should at least in principle be uncontroversial because it is both socially equitable (richer people live more carbon intensive lives and thus contribute more), and it sets the right consumption incentive without taking money out of people's personal pockets (which should please conservatives).
  - bryanlarsen 7y ago
    It should, in principle. Canada recently introduced a carbon tax with dividend program in which about 80% of consumers receive more in dividends than they pay out in carbon tax. Despite that, opposition is very significant. It's a crazy world.
    - Scoundreller 7y ago
      I’m all for carbon taxes too, but I always question the accounting for this. Consumers pay some carbon taxes directly (e.g. while buying gasoline), but does this account for indirect carbon taxes (e.g. the natural gas used in making fertilizer to grow the food that the cow ate to make this burger?). At the end of the day, a lot of our purchases are really paying for the energy used in its production at some level.
rootusrootus 7y ago
And less heat, right? Doesn't that take more energy than AC?
briandear 7y ago
So we are near the limits of human heat tolerance and the solution is less AC? Does lowering quality of life actually help increase quality of life? The simple solution is to build more nuclear. When energy generation doesn’t require burning things, this solves itself. A carbon neutral grid means we can use as much air conditioning as we want. I was in Rome and France last week and “less AC” would have meant vulnerable people potentially dying in the heat.
- mjlee 7y ago
  Is that actually true? How much of the impact of AC is power generation vs the inefficiency of refrigeration?
panzagl 7y ago
What do they do with the voucher? Fan themselves?
- dimitar 7y ago
  Afford electricity bills for Air conditioning. In some areas it will soon not be possible to sleep without air conditioning, and people can die in heat waves.

learnstats2 7y ago

it will additionally incentivise AC manufacturers to find more carbon-efficient ways of cooling.

smileysteve 7y ago
If my electricity is nuclear, hydro, or wind then what Carbon is my ac inefficient at?
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  If your grid is connected to other grids, reducing your electric consumption will offset other carbon consumption.
coredog64 7y ago
AC is more efficient than heating since it is just moving energy around. And yet I don’t see wailing and gnashing of teeth about heating when it is frequently accomplished by burning oil in an on-site boiler. I get the sense that it comes down to places that use AC to make the 3 horrible months of summer livable vote the “wrong” way, while places that burn oil to make the 3 horrible months of winter livable vote the “right” way.
- learnstats2 7y ago
  AC is more efficient than heating since it is just moving energy around. This claim is incompatible the Second Law of Thermodynamics: "Heat can never pass from a colder to a warmer body without some other change, connected therewith, occurring at the same time."
- VBprogrammer 7y ago
  I think you are correct, there is definitely more stigma attached to AC than there is to heating. That said, I think the use of AC to the extent that staying inside for too long is uncomfortable without putting on more clothing is probably excessive, in the same way that setting the heating so that you need to wear shorts inside would be excessive. I think a lot of common sense has been lost in the design of homes. In the south of Europe homes are often comfortable with minimal or no air-conditioning because they have designs suitable for the climate. However, this means having small windows which aren't directly exposed to sunlight, tiled or marble floors etc.
- briandear 7y ago
  Why is this being downvoted? Are those living in the liberal Northeast US ever proposing to reduce heating? Not much. Read the comments here — using “less AC” appears more frequently than “use less heat.” My point is that you have a point. Colder places lament the AC use of hotter places because they aren’t significantly proposing to limit their own quality of life, but the quality of life of people that don’t vote like them.
  - dashundchen 7y ago
    Many of the populous northern states (I am familiar with at least MA and NY) are heavily incentivizing weatherization, solar, and eliminating fossil fuels by switching to electric ground and air source heat pumps. Lowest hanging fruit is rural oil and propane heated houses but I expect natural gas to be targeted soon considering New York's climate goals. Combined with the efforts to switch the grid to renewables (net-zero electric grid by 2040 and net-zero altogether by 2050) this should greatly reduce emissions coming from eating. https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/6/20/18691058/new-york-green-new-deal-climate-change-cuomo https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/6/20/1869105... In fact, New York has aggressively limited the expansion of natural gas pipelines and recently both ConEd and National Grid, two major gas providers, said in response they will stop expanding their network. IMO New York's energy agencies are using this to see if they can fully eliminate fossil fuels from new development and start a phase out. https://enerknol.com/national-grid-stops-accepting-new-gas-service-requests-in-new-york-following-williams-pipeline-denial/ https://enerknol.com/national-grid-stops-accepting-new-gas-s... https://www.nyserda.ny.gov/All-Programs/Programs/Clean-Energy-Action-Plan https://www.nyserda.ny.gov/All-Programs/Programs/Clean-Energ...
tsukikage 7y ago
If your electricity comes from renewables, carbon tax shouldn't affect your AC use.

raxxorrax 7y ago

I would only vote for it if there are tax releases in other areas because tax rate is already enormous in my country. We already have an environmental tax that was used to stuff holes in social security systems. That said, binding environmental costs to actual prices would be terrific. But if households only generate 1/5 of overall emissions (depending on data and negligent of consumption), we might need other mechanisms. You can control many things through taxes, but I believe this to be inefficient. I would have no problem with paying double for fuel. But that isn't the reality for most people that are dependent on cars. Better than nothing perhaps, but I have very low expectations for this tax.

Barrin92 7y ago
> would only vote for it if there are tax releases in other areas because tax rate is already enormous in my country. A carbon divided, which is to say redistributing the income of the carbon tax equally and directly to the people should at least in principle be uncontroversial because it is both socially equitable (richer people live more carbon intensive lives and thus contribute more), and it sets the right consumption incentive without taking money out of people's personal pockets (which should please conservatives).
- bryanlarsen 7y ago
  It should, in principle. Canada recently introduced a carbon tax with dividend program in which about 80% of consumers receive more in dividends than they pay out in carbon tax. Despite that, opposition is very significant. It's a crazy world.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    I’m all for carbon taxes too, but I always question the accounting for this. Consumers pay some carbon taxes directly (e.g. while buying gasoline), but does this account for indirect carbon taxes (e.g. the natural gas used in making fertilizer to grow the food that the cow ate to make this burger?). At the end of the day, a lot of our purchases are really paying for the energy used in its production at some level.

rootusrootus 7y ago

And less heat, right? Doesn't that take more energy than AC?

briandear 7y ago

So we are near the limits of human heat tolerance and the solution is less AC? Does lowering quality of life actually help increase quality of life? The simple solution is to build more nuclear. When energy generation doesn’t require burning things, this solves itself. A carbon neutral grid means we can use as much air conditioning as we want. I was in Rome and France last week and “less AC” would have meant vulnerable people potentially dying in the heat.

mjlee 7y ago
Is that actually true? How much of the impact of AC is power generation vs the inefficiency of refrigeration?

panzagl 7y ago

What do they do with the voucher? Fan themselves?

dimitar 7y ago
Afford electricity bills for Air conditioning. In some areas it will soon not be possible to sleep without air conditioning, and people can die in heat waves.