10 ms·

Why aren't people more worried about these kinds of things? Is it just too abstract and removed from day-to-day life to care?

anonydsfsfs 7y ago
Denial is part of it. Jared Diamond talks about this in "Collapse": "consider a narrow river valley below a high dam, such that if the dam burst, the resulting flood of water would drown people for a considerable distance downstream. When attitude pollsters ask people downstream of the dam how concerned they are about the dam's bursting, it's not surprising that fear of a dam burst is lowest far downstream, and increases among residents increasingly close to the dam. Surprisingly, though, after you get just a few miles below the dam, where fear of the dam's breaking is found to be highest, concern then falls off to zero as you approach closer to the dam! That is, the people living immediately under the dam, the ones most certain to be drowned in a dam burst, profess unconcern. That's because of psychological denial: the only way of preserving one's sanity while looking up every day at the dam is to deny the possiblity that it could burst. " - page 436
- viscanti 7y ago
  > concern then falls off to zero as you approach closer to the dam! That is, the people living immediately under the dam, the ones most certain to be drowned in a dam burst, profess unconcern. It's a fun story but it doesn't prove causality. Maybe their faith in the dam is why they moved there.
  - SiempreViernes 7y ago
    That seems very far fetched: by the description that river was well populated before the dam was built, so the ones left closest is by majority those that stayed after it was completed.
- YinLuck- 7y ago
  Jared Diamond is cringe.
- alexgmcm 7y ago
  Has this actually been confirmed via observation though? Are there polls/surveys that see this effect? I mean I think if I was living right next to a dam or a chemical plant or whatever I would be more worried about an accident. Although I suppose in real data you could get selection bias - those people who are terrified by nuclear power are unlikely to continue living next to a plant for long, leaving behind only those who are not bothered by it.
- therealdrag0 7y ago
  Maybe the people who live closer to the damn work on the damn and know more about it so are less scared.
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> Why aren't people more worried about these kinds of things? It’s not directly relevant in a relatable way to most of us. If you can afford air conditioning, these conditions are survivable. Building empathy with faraway victims facing chronic problems is hard.
- sgeisler 7y ago
  From my perspective the biggest thread to western lifestyle is the reliance on cheap labor in Asia (production) and Africa (mining). Their minimum livable pay might rise due to food shortages, need for AC etc. That could have a major ripple effect on many product and service prices. But maybe we will have even better automation by then so we can trade opex for capex. But I only have shallow knowledge of the major supply chains, maybe someone with a deeper understanding can chime in.
lazyjones 7y ago
Because it's alarmist nonsense that only gets published due to the ongoing hysteria. If higher temperatures than we're used to in Europe were catastrophic for human survival, Africa's population would be endangered by them and not be growing at the current rates.
- RijilV 7y ago
  The article talks about “wet bulb” temperature. That takes into account humidity. When the temperature is at or above body temperature our body relies on evaporation to cool. The problem for many areas is it’s not a dry heat. I like many other people as you point out have lived in 35c and above areas just fine, but the humidity was very low - it wasn’t really that bad if you could avoid direct sun exposure and didn’t physically exert yourself much. Once that humidity creeps up then it’s a problem.
  - marcus_holmes 7y ago
    Then you turn the AC or fan on...
    - jacobolus 7y ago
      This article is focused on the situation where e.g. a tropical cyclone knocks out the power for an extended time, after which a heat wave sweeps through killing tons of people because the AC won’t run and the human body can’t physically cope with the temperature/humidity. The first sentence explains that the authors studied the “potential for a catastrophic cyclone-heatwave combo”. The rest of the article elaborates.
      - marcus_holmes 7y ago
        yeah, but having travelled around some of these regions, the power is never reliable. The people who live there have adapted some amazing ways of adapting to it, and there are all sorts of jury-rigged solutions. I didn't mean to be so flippant. But honestly, this article deals with an incredibly unlikely combination of events in a very small area of the world, and is then labelled with "the human body is close to its thermal limits because of climate change". This kind of sensationalist crap is not helping anyone.
spraak 7y ago
I'm sure people are, but it's too big of a problem to fit in the space of thinking for the average person. Also, where do you live? If you don't live in any of the areas soon or already being affected (e.g. Pakistan, India) then it's not an 'immediate' (relatively) concern. Of Europe heats up, it's still cooler than Mumbai.
scanny 7y ago
It's just apathy, and the difficulty of perceiving how it can impact any of the 'people' the individual level. Every person feels like, often rightly so, that they have enough fiscal and social stress that immediately impacts their lives. For an (U.S) example, Presidential elections: the results of which undoubtedly impact the entire nations population in, potentially, massive ways in every sphere (social, economic ect.). You cannot really escape it either, it permeates news cycles at all levels nationally and globally. Since 2000 it turnouts have been bounced between 50-60%. Given that, how many people are really going to be concerning themselves with something like climate change? Tax policy rattles more people than climate change ever will, they may even recognize it themselves, and yet people just don't care (or have more immediate concerns). If you want someone to care, they have to be moved enough by being directly impacted. In climate change's case, it will be too late to do anything. But that's just how people (including myself) work.
- agumonkey 7y ago
  There's a coating bliss of social rhythm. When jobless I was 24/7 on collapse subjects. When working, I was busy doing my job, I was happy going there in the morning, seeing everybody doing their thing, eating and sleeping ready to go for the next day.
- malka 7y ago
  Which is why a green dictatorship is the only way to go. Democracy will lead us to extinction.
  - atlantacrackers 7y ago
    If you are serious, this might be the scariest comment I have ever read on HN.
    - malka 7y ago
      I am, indeed, serious. Democracy offers us to satisfy all our immediates needs, without any regards for the long term concerns. Democracy will be our doom.
DoreenMichele 7y ago
"News" is mostly bad news. We've been hearing since WW2 that we are on the verge of wiping ourselves out. We are still here. If we are right this time, why worry about it? If we are wrong this time -- as we have been for the past 70 years -- why worry about it? Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19843507 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19843507
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- adrianN 7y ago
  If we're right this time, we can still do something about it.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    Among other things, I've lived without a car for more than a decade. I don't worry about it in part because I'm doing all within my power. If it's not enough because so many other people can't be arsed, my quality of life does not go up if I add sleepless nights and ulcers to my experience.
- perfunctory 7y ago
  The comment you linked actually suggests some things to do: " Some things that help: Walk more, especially as a form of transportation. Use more daylighting and passive solar. This can be as simple as opening the window instead of cranking the AC. Eat less meat. "
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    I wrote it, so I'm aware of what it says.
    - perfunctory 7y ago
      Sorry. When I noticed it, it was too late :)
perfunctory 7y ago
The idea that people don't worry is a bit of a myth. They do https://news.gallup.com/poll/248027/americans-concerned-ever-global-warming.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/248027/americans-concerned-ever... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/26/climate-more-pressing-than-brexit-say-71-of-britons-poll https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/26/climate-...
taneq 7y ago
When the water in the pot is heated slowly, we don't realise that it's a problem until it's too late and we're already boiling.
kazagistar 7y ago
They do. Our "democracy" is just a bit too broken right now for that to have policy impact.
Tinfoilhat666 7y ago
People are worried, but they don't respond by stopping climate change, because it doesn't directly affect them. Instead they see people migrating from south to USA and Europe. The response in USA is that people ask Trump to build a wall. In Europe, people vote for populistic right wing parties who promise to stop migrations. They don't want to fix the root cause, which is that south is becoming inhabitable by climate change.
- skocznymroczny 7y ago
  Oh please. Only few years ago, all those "refugees" (illegal migrants) were seeking asylum because they were fleeing war in their country. Even though most of them didn't even come from warzones, or came from places in Syria which were never a warzone. But now, in western Europe and USA it's all about doom and gloom climate scenarios, they are suddenly "climate refugees". Just another excuse so that these people can go in.
nabla9 7y ago
Because they threaten mostly other people in poor regions. Notice that the worst scenarios, like the 4 degree warming, discussed in the article, happen lose to the end of the century. Most of us are dead then.
kaolti 7y ago
Because every other "study" is biased / false / not statistically significant / misleading / funded by someone with an agenda. Not to mention that fearmongering is the basis of politics and so we're constantly being bombarded with "studies" showing a million different things to be fearful of, very often contradicting each other or at the very least not including the full story. Are we saying people should go out on the streets in a mass hysteria? That's worse than climate change itself. Are we saying we need to have in depth nuanced discussion about it. Sure, please do.
bubblewrap 7y ago
I'm pretty sure people are already living in places that are too hot for survival without technical aids. For example African deserts. In that light, I am not convinced that this article is more than fearmongering. It's also just one of countless doomsday scenarios out there.
- coconut_crab 7y ago
  It's the combination of heat and humidity that's deadly. The desert is hot but dry so you can rely on evaporative cooling but if it's too wet then there is nothing you can do to cool your body.
  - bubblewrap 7y ago
    Still, it is a pretty extreme scenario. And it is nothing new that some places on earth are uninhabitable or have become uninhabitable.
    - coconut_crab 7y ago
      Having experienced the few last summers at 80% humidity and 32oC+, i can say from my experience that the extreme is becoming the norm now. In fact i am enjoying it right now, and it has just rained half an hour ago!
      - bubblewrap 7y ago
        So the area where you live was never hot and humid before?
acqq 7y ago
I'd like to quote Al Bartlett: His thesis: "The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function" An example from the rest of the talk: "Bacteria grow by doubling. One bacterium divides to become two, the two divide to become 4, the 4 become 8, 16 and so on. Suppose we had bacteria that doubled in number this way every minute. Suppose we put one of these bacteria into an empty bottle at 11:00 in the morning, and then observe that the bottle is full at 12:00 noon. There's our case of just ordinary steady growth: it has a doubling time of one minute, it’s in the finite environment of one bottle. I want to ask you three questions. Number one: at what time was the bottle half full? Well, would you believe 11:59, one minute before 12:00? Because they double in number every minute. And the second question: if you were an average bacterium in that bottle, at what time would you first realize you were running of space? Well, let’s just look at the last minutes in the bottle. At 12:00 noon, it’s full; one minute before, it’s half full; 2 minutes before, it’s a quarter full; then an 1/8th; then a 1/16th. Let me ask you, at 5 minutes before 12:00, when the bottle is only 3% full and is 97% open space just yearning for development, how many of you would realize there’s a problem?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI1C9DyIi_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI1C9DyIi_8 https://www.albartlett.org/presentations/arithmetic_population_energy_transcript_english.html https://www.albartlett.org/presentations/arithmetic_populati...
Insanity 7y ago
There are plenty of people worried about this from my experience (in my bubble). But most of them also feel powerless, as the belief is that governments need to get their act together to fix the problems.
Cthulhu_ 7y ago
I believe to a point that it is; in developed countries, there are a lot of opportunities to manage the heat. My house for example can remain cool for a few days in a heatwave, especially with some modifications that block the sun from entering. This article seems to imply that everyone will die from exposure once a certain temperature and saturation is reached, but doesn't seem to take measures into consideration. Even without A/C there are plenty of options available, e.g. evaporative cooling, living underground, heat pumps (that move heat or cold underground depending on season) and just building with possible heatwaves in mind. I AM worried about these things, we've just had a heatwave that knocked my girlfriend out for two days. Tomorrow morning a guy will come over to make measurements to install awnings and screens to keep the sunlight (and heat) out. I am long-term thinking about installing solar panels on the roof, which can be used to offset the power consumption of another possible upgrade, the installation of a solid rooftop AC unit instead of the portable one we've used that just can't keep up. And that's just my house, there's loads of actions that can be undertaken by individuals, local municipalities and governments - think about growing taller trees in residential areas, managing the water table to combat drought, providing aid and cool shelter to the homeless and economically disadvantaged, or even opening up public pools and fountains, and making (cooled) public spaces more accessible to spend a day at during hot weather.
- empath75 7y ago
  Animals don’t have access to any of those tools. I wonder how long until we have a heatwave that kills all the tigers or elephants in India at once.
- seren 7y ago
  Temperature and comfort is one thing, but the other dangerous issue that is looming is food production. If, because of climate change, it dips for a few percentage point, that will create food shortage and price increase, that will lead to revolutions or wars.
sgeisler 7y ago
These green interventionist policies proposed to deal with the problem are a greater threat to the lifestyle of many people than the problem itself.

anonydsfsfs 7y ago

Denial is part of it. Jared Diamond talks about this in "Collapse": "consider a narrow river valley below a high dam, such that if the dam burst, the resulting flood of water would drown people for a considerable distance downstream. When attitude pollsters ask people downstream of the dam how concerned they are about the dam's bursting, it's not surprising that fear of a dam burst is lowest far downstream, and increases among residents increasingly close to the dam. Surprisingly, though, after you get just a few miles below the dam, where fear of the dam's breaking is found to be highest, concern then falls off to zero as you approach closer to the dam! That is, the people living immediately under the dam, the ones most certain to be drowned in a dam burst, profess unconcern. That's because of psychological denial: the only way of preserving one's sanity while looking up every day at the dam is to deny the possiblity that it could burst. " - page 436

viscanti 7y ago
> concern then falls off to zero as you approach closer to the dam! That is, the people living immediately under the dam, the ones most certain to be drowned in a dam burst, profess unconcern. It's a fun story but it doesn't prove causality. Maybe their faith in the dam is why they moved there.
- SiempreViernes 7y ago
  That seems very far fetched: by the description that river was well populated before the dam was built, so the ones left closest is by majority those that stayed after it was completed.
YinLuck- 7y ago
Jared Diamond is cringe.
alexgmcm 7y ago
Has this actually been confirmed via observation though? Are there polls/surveys that see this effect? I mean I think if I was living right next to a dam or a chemical plant or whatever I would be more worried about an accident. Although I suppose in real data you could get selection bias - those people who are terrified by nuclear power are unlikely to continue living next to a plant for long, leaving behind only those who are not bothered by it.
therealdrag0 7y ago
Maybe the people who live closer to the damn work on the damn and know more about it so are less scared.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> Why aren't people more worried about these kinds of things? It’s not directly relevant in a relatable way to most of us. If you can afford air conditioning, these conditions are survivable. Building empathy with faraway victims facing chronic problems is hard.

sgeisler 7y ago
From my perspective the biggest thread to western lifestyle is the reliance on cheap labor in Asia (production) and Africa (mining). Their minimum livable pay might rise due to food shortages, need for AC etc. That could have a major ripple effect on many product and service prices. But maybe we will have even better automation by then so we can trade opex for capex. But I only have shallow knowledge of the major supply chains, maybe someone with a deeper understanding can chime in.

lazyjones 7y ago

Because it's alarmist nonsense that only gets published due to the ongoing hysteria. If higher temperatures than we're used to in Europe were catastrophic for human survival, Africa's population would be endangered by them and not be growing at the current rates.

RijilV 7y ago
The article talks about “wet bulb” temperature. That takes into account humidity. When the temperature is at or above body temperature our body relies on evaporation to cool. The problem for many areas is it’s not a dry heat. I like many other people as you point out have lived in 35c and above areas just fine, but the humidity was very low - it wasn’t really that bad if you could avoid direct sun exposure and didn’t physically exert yourself much. Once that humidity creeps up then it’s a problem.
- marcus_holmes 7y ago
  Then you turn the AC or fan on...
  - jacobolus 7y ago
    This article is focused on the situation where e.g. a tropical cyclone knocks out the power for an extended time, after which a heat wave sweeps through killing tons of people because the AC won’t run and the human body can’t physically cope with the temperature/humidity. The first sentence explains that the authors studied the “potential for a catastrophic cyclone-heatwave combo”. The rest of the article elaborates.
    - marcus_holmes 7y ago
      yeah, but having travelled around some of these regions, the power is never reliable. The people who live there have adapted some amazing ways of adapting to it, and there are all sorts of jury-rigged solutions. I didn't mean to be so flippant. But honestly, this article deals with an incredibly unlikely combination of events in a very small area of the world, and is then labelled with "the human body is close to its thermal limits because of climate change". This kind of sensationalist crap is not helping anyone.

spraak 7y ago

I'm sure people are, but it's too big of a problem to fit in the space of thinking for the average person. Also, where do you live? If you don't live in any of the areas soon or already being affected (e.g. Pakistan, India) then it's not an 'immediate' (relatively) concern. Of Europe heats up, it's still cooler than Mumbai.

scanny 7y ago

It's just apathy, and the difficulty of perceiving how it can impact any of the 'people' the individual level. Every person feels like, often rightly so, that they have enough fiscal and social stress that immediately impacts their lives. For an (U.S) example, Presidential elections: the results of which undoubtedly impact the entire nations population in, potentially, massive ways in every sphere (social, economic ect.). You cannot really escape it either, it permeates news cycles at all levels nationally and globally. Since 2000 it turnouts have been bounced between 50-60%. Given that, how many people are really going to be concerning themselves with something like climate change? Tax policy rattles more people than climate change ever will, they may even recognize it themselves, and yet people just don't care (or have more immediate concerns). If you want someone to care, they have to be moved enough by being directly impacted. In climate change's case, it will be too late to do anything. But that's just how people (including myself) work.

agumonkey 7y ago
There's a coating bliss of social rhythm. When jobless I was 24/7 on collapse subjects. When working, I was busy doing my job, I was happy going there in the morning, seeing everybody doing their thing, eating and sleeping ready to go for the next day.
malka 7y ago
Which is why a green dictatorship is the only way to go. Democracy will lead us to extinction.
- atlantacrackers 7y ago
  If you are serious, this might be the scariest comment I have ever read on HN.
  - malka 7y ago
    I am, indeed, serious. Democracy offers us to satisfy all our immediates needs, without any regards for the long term concerns. Democracy will be our doom.

DoreenMichele 7y ago

"News" is mostly bad news. We've been hearing since WW2 that we are on the verge of wiping ourselves out. We are still here. If we are right this time, why worry about it? If we are wrong this time -- as we have been for the past 70 years -- why worry about it? Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19843507 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19843507

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
adrianN 7y ago
If we're right this time, we can still do something about it.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  Among other things, I've lived without a car for more than a decade. I don't worry about it in part because I'm doing all within my power. If it's not enough because so many other people can't be arsed, my quality of life does not go up if I add sleepless nights and ulcers to my experience.
perfunctory 7y ago
The comment you linked actually suggests some things to do: " Some things that help: Walk more, especially as a form of transportation. Use more daylighting and passive solar. This can be as simple as opening the window instead of cranking the AC. Eat less meat. "
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  I wrote it, so I'm aware of what it says.
  - perfunctory 7y ago
    Sorry. When I noticed it, it was too late :)

perfunctory 7y ago

The idea that people don't worry is a bit of a myth. They do https://news.gallup.com/poll/248027/americans-concerned-ever-global-warming.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/248027/americans-concerned-ever... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/26/climate-more-pressing-than-brexit-say-71-of-britons-poll https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/26/climate-...

taneq 7y ago

When the water in the pot is heated slowly, we don't realise that it's a problem until it's too late and we're already boiling.

kazagistar 7y ago

They do. Our "democracy" is just a bit too broken right now for that to have policy impact.

Tinfoilhat666 7y ago

People are worried, but they don't respond by stopping climate change, because it doesn't directly affect them. Instead they see people migrating from south to USA and Europe. The response in USA is that people ask Trump to build a wall. In Europe, people vote for populistic right wing parties who promise to stop migrations. They don't want to fix the root cause, which is that south is becoming inhabitable by climate change.

skocznymroczny 7y ago
Oh please. Only few years ago, all those "refugees" (illegal migrants) were seeking asylum because they were fleeing war in their country. Even though most of them didn't even come from warzones, or came from places in Syria which were never a warzone. But now, in western Europe and USA it's all about doom and gloom climate scenarios, they are suddenly "climate refugees". Just another excuse so that these people can go in.

nabla9 7y ago

Because they threaten mostly other people in poor regions. Notice that the worst scenarios, like the 4 degree warming, discussed in the article, happen lose to the end of the century. Most of us are dead then.

kaolti 7y ago

Because every other "study" is biased / false / not statistically significant / misleading / funded by someone with an agenda. Not to mention that fearmongering is the basis of politics and so we're constantly being bombarded with "studies" showing a million different things to be fearful of, very often contradicting each other or at the very least not including the full story. Are we saying people should go out on the streets in a mass hysteria? That's worse than climate change itself. Are we saying we need to have in depth nuanced discussion about it. Sure, please do.

bubblewrap 7y ago

I'm pretty sure people are already living in places that are too hot for survival without technical aids. For example African deserts. In that light, I am not convinced that this article is more than fearmongering. It's also just one of countless doomsday scenarios out there.

coconut_crab 7y ago
It's the combination of heat and humidity that's deadly. The desert is hot but dry so you can rely on evaporative cooling but if it's too wet then there is nothing you can do to cool your body.
- bubblewrap 7y ago
  Still, it is a pretty extreme scenario. And it is nothing new that some places on earth are uninhabitable or have become uninhabitable.
  - coconut_crab 7y ago
    Having experienced the few last summers at 80% humidity and 32oC+, i can say from my experience that the extreme is becoming the norm now. In fact i am enjoying it right now, and it has just rained half an hour ago!
    - bubblewrap 7y ago
      So the area where you live was never hot and humid before?

acqq 7y ago

I'd like to quote Al Bartlett: His thesis: "The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function" An example from the rest of the talk: "Bacteria grow by doubling. One bacterium divides to become two, the two divide to become 4, the 4 become 8, 16 and so on. Suppose we had bacteria that doubled in number this way every minute. Suppose we put one of these bacteria into an empty bottle at 11:00 in the morning, and then observe that the bottle is full at 12:00 noon. There's our case of just ordinary steady growth: it has a doubling time of one minute, it’s in the finite environment of one bottle. I want to ask you three questions. Number one: at what time was the bottle half full? Well, would you believe 11:59, one minute before 12:00? Because they double in number every minute. And the second question: if you were an average bacterium in that bottle, at what time would you first realize you were running of space? Well, let’s just look at the last minutes in the bottle. At 12:00 noon, it’s full; one minute before, it’s half full; 2 minutes before, it’s a quarter full; then an 1/8th; then a 1/16th. Let me ask you, at 5 minutes before 12:00, when the bottle is only 3% full and is 97% open space just yearning for development, how many of you would realize there’s a problem?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI1C9DyIi_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI1C9DyIi_8 https://www.albartlett.org/presentations/arithmetic_population_energy_transcript_english.html https://www.albartlett.org/presentations/arithmetic_populati...

Insanity 7y ago

There are plenty of people worried about this from my experience (in my bubble). But most of them also feel powerless, as the belief is that governments need to get their act together to fix the problems.

Cthulhu_ 7y ago

I believe to a point that it is; in developed countries, there are a lot of opportunities to manage the heat. My house for example can remain cool for a few days in a heatwave, especially with some modifications that block the sun from entering. This article seems to imply that everyone will die from exposure once a certain temperature and saturation is reached, but doesn't seem to take measures into consideration. Even without A/C there are plenty of options available, e.g. evaporative cooling, living underground, heat pumps (that move heat or cold underground depending on season) and just building with possible heatwaves in mind. I AM worried about these things, we've just had a heatwave that knocked my girlfriend out for two days. Tomorrow morning a guy will come over to make measurements to install awnings and screens to keep the sunlight (and heat) out. I am long-term thinking about installing solar panels on the roof, which can be used to offset the power consumption of another possible upgrade, the installation of a solid rooftop AC unit instead of the portable one we've used that just can't keep up. And that's just my house, there's loads of actions that can be undertaken by individuals, local municipalities and governments - think about growing taller trees in residential areas, managing the water table to combat drought, providing aid and cool shelter to the homeless and economically disadvantaged, or even opening up public pools and fountains, and making (cooled) public spaces more accessible to spend a day at during hot weather.

empath75 7y ago
Animals don’t have access to any of those tools. I wonder how long until we have a heatwave that kills all the tigers or elephants in India at once.
seren 7y ago
Temperature and comfort is one thing, but the other dangerous issue that is looming is food production. If, because of climate change, it dips for a few percentage point, that will create food shortage and price increase, that will lead to revolutions or wars.

sgeisler 7y ago

These green interventionist policies proposed to deal with the problem are a greater threat to the lifestyle of many people than the problem itself.