6 ms·

> Where my personality was called into question perhaps my working-class background, my northern accent, and my Asperger's could be a reasonable explanation.

by air7 7y ago

> Where my personality was called into question perhaps my working-class background, my northern accent, and my Asperger's could be a reasonable explanation. It's quite likely that ones background and developmental disorders shape one's personality. However, it's still their personality. So what if it has a reason? This touches on the dark abyss of "free will". In some sense all we are is a cellular-automata chugging along according to the laws of physics. In that sense everything one does has a "reason". Yet we live our lives, and shape our societies, with the idea that sane adults have an ability to chart their own course, in some sense. (in contrast to children or "insane" people who are considered more reactive/automatic hence not responsible for their actions). What part of my actions are my responsibility (and therefor have consequences) and what part is beyond my control (and should be forgiven, at least partially)?

zwkrt 7y ago
“There but for the grace of God go I”, a sentiment even atheistic people should share. Maybe in dry scientific speak, “if it weren’t for the entirety of human culture, evolution, and the specific conditions of the Earth from prehistory until the present, I would not be here where I am today in my particular frame of mind. I didn’t even get to choose which ‘I’ I am, I could have been the person I hate or pity instead”
- xkcd-sucks 7y ago
  People that don't believe in the supernatural can still appreciate the usefulness of God as a metaphor and concept. Provided they don't take things too seriously :)
sysbin 7y ago
Free will is an illusion and simply it doesn't exist. You cannot make either a choice or decision that's truly your own. Simply, you cannot without being effected by the system you're in. People don't choose the life they're born into and why does anything that comes after birth be assumed differently. The answer cultural conditioning and from religious ideology that has rooted deeply into society. The belief that god gave humanity free will. No part of your actions are truly the responsibility of you as a person but the fate of cause & effect and everything outside one's control. The system of society with genetics & environment being imperfect makes bad people. Otherwise we would just have 'people' in a system of perfect equality.
- ohaideredevs 7y ago
  I agree with you 100%, but I think it's better to 'choose' to believe you can do better, despite knowing, factually, that you are just a product of your environment. In other words, "I can improve myself" is a pragmatic outlook. Of course, you can respond with "but you can't even choose that outlook", which I don't disagree with.
  - sysbin 7y ago
    > but I think it's better to 'choose' to believe you can do better I disagree, I theorize it's the same as when the majority of humanity wanted to believe the world is flat and or there is a God that judges us all. Society is the outcome of the majority consensus. So basically I assume many lives are being punished because the majority consensus doesn't understand cause & effect.
- turk73 7y ago
  Oh whatever. I can walk the fuck out of my job and quit today if I so choose. Is that not free will? I didn't say there would not be consequences, only that it is 100% possible as I've done that very thing in the past. One of my relatives majored in Philosophy and has his head up his own ass in all this stuff. I find him quite amusing. He reads too many books and has suffered 0.0 actual hardships in his life and yet he is somehow an expert and gleefully gives other people lots of shitty advice. And I did choose my own life--given my early circumstances and what I was "born into" I eventually rejected 99% of it, moved away, and created my own more positive life. It's hard to break the mold, but certainly not impossible. Cultural conditioning and religion are bullshit traps, same as collectivism, which is another huge, unbelievable lie. I'm not saying it isn't difficult, but you can break free. As far as being a "difficult person" I own that!
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  Let's suppose you're right and non-determinism doesn't exist. (Quantum physics apparently disagrees, but never mind that.) It doesn't matter. Treating people as though they have agency is still necessary, because how we treat them would affect their deterministic state function. If someone commits murder and we say it was only a product of their environment and they have no agency, therefore we shouldn't punish them, well, that's the sort of "choice" that, on a systemic level, causes more people to commit murder. Even if they have no "choice" in the matter -- especially then -- creating an environment in which murder has personal benefits outweighing the personal costs is societally maladaptive. And so it is with everything else. If we want people to give to charity and go to college and not steal from others then we have to act as if they chose whether or not to do those things and reward or punish them accordingly.
solarkraft 7y ago
This is a fascinating thing to think about. Some properties like missiong legs are thought of as disabilities and often compensated for by the state. But where is the line? Is depression (hindering ones ability to work or lead a happy life) a disability, or just being not intelligent enough to be a good programmer?
- matthewheath 7y ago
  In the UK, depression can be considered a disability under the Equality Act 2010. Anyone with such a disability would be entitled to appropriate compensation from the state (social security benefits) and adjustments in the workplace, if necessary.
- DanBC 7y ago
  In England autism counts as a disability if the autistic person thinks it is a disability: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/6 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/6 Depression can be a disability if it lasts long enough. Otherwise it's a simple illness and employers should deal with it in the same way as other illness.
aj7 7y ago
WE ARE NOT cellular-automata chugging along according to the laws of physics. In any sense, degree, or verified theory. In my OPINION, cellular automata fascination is an obsessive disorder that geniuses are at risk for, ca. Fredkin, Feynman, Wolfram. The operant word is disorder.

by air7 7y ago

zwkrt 7y ago

“There but for the grace of God go I”, a sentiment even atheistic people should share. Maybe in dry scientific speak, “if it weren’t for the entirety of human culture, evolution, and the specific conditions of the Earth from prehistory until the present, I would not be here where I am today in my particular frame of mind. I didn’t even get to choose which ‘I’ I am, I could have been the person I hate or pity instead”

xkcd-sucks 7y ago
People that don't believe in the supernatural can still appreciate the usefulness of God as a metaphor and concept. Provided they don't take things too seriously :)

sysbin 7y ago

Free will is an illusion and simply it doesn't exist. You cannot make either a choice or decision that's truly your own. Simply, you cannot without being effected by the system you're in. People don't choose the life they're born into and why does anything that comes after birth be assumed differently. The answer cultural conditioning and from religious ideology that has rooted deeply into society. The belief that god gave humanity free will. No part of your actions are truly the responsibility of you as a person but the fate of cause & effect and everything outside one's control. The system of society with genetics & environment being imperfect makes bad people. Otherwise we would just have 'people' in a system of perfect equality.

ohaideredevs 7y ago
I agree with you 100%, but I think it's better to 'choose' to believe you can do better, despite knowing, factually, that you are just a product of your environment. In other words, "I can improve myself" is a pragmatic outlook. Of course, you can respond with "but you can't even choose that outlook", which I don't disagree with.
- sysbin 7y ago
  > but I think it's better to 'choose' to believe you can do better I disagree, I theorize it's the same as when the majority of humanity wanted to believe the world is flat and or there is a God that judges us all. Society is the outcome of the majority consensus. So basically I assume many lives are being punished because the majority consensus doesn't understand cause & effect.
turk73 7y ago
Oh whatever. I can walk the fuck out of my job and quit today if I so choose. Is that not free will? I didn't say there would not be consequences, only that it is 100% possible as I've done that very thing in the past. One of my relatives majored in Philosophy and has his head up his own ass in all this stuff. I find him quite amusing. He reads too many books and has suffered 0.0 actual hardships in his life and yet he is somehow an expert and gleefully gives other people lots of shitty advice. And I did choose my own life--given my early circumstances and what I was "born into" I eventually rejected 99% of it, moved away, and created my own more positive life. It's hard to break the mold, but certainly not impossible. Cultural conditioning and religion are bullshit traps, same as collectivism, which is another huge, unbelievable lie. I'm not saying it isn't difficult, but you can break free. As far as being a "difficult person" I own that!
AnthonyMouse 7y ago
Let's suppose you're right and non-determinism doesn't exist. (Quantum physics apparently disagrees, but never mind that.) It doesn't matter. Treating people as though they have agency is still necessary, because how we treat them would affect their deterministic state function. If someone commits murder and we say it was only a product of their environment and they have no agency, therefore we shouldn't punish them, well, that's the sort of "choice" that, on a systemic level, causes more people to commit murder. Even if they have no "choice" in the matter -- especially then -- creating an environment in which murder has personal benefits outweighing the personal costs is societally maladaptive. And so it is with everything else. If we want people to give to charity and go to college and not steal from others then we have to act as if they chose whether or not to do those things and reward or punish them accordingly.

solarkraft 7y ago

This is a fascinating thing to think about. Some properties like missiong legs are thought of as disabilities and often compensated for by the state. But where is the line? Is depression (hindering ones ability to work or lead a happy life) a disability, or just being not intelligent enough to be a good programmer?

matthewheath 7y ago
In the UK, depression can be considered a disability under the Equality Act 2010. Anyone with such a disability would be entitled to appropriate compensation from the state (social security benefits) and adjustments in the workplace, if necessary.
DanBC 7y ago
In England autism counts as a disability if the autistic person thinks it is a disability: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/6 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/6 Depression can be a disability if it lasts long enough. Otherwise it's a simple illness and employers should deal with it in the same way as other illness.

aj7 7y ago

WE ARE NOT cellular-automata chugging along according to the laws of physics. In any sense, degree, or verified theory. In my OPINION, cellular automata fascination is an obsessive disorder that geniuses are at risk for, ca. Fredkin, Feynman, Wolfram. The operant word is disorder.