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Perhaps we should start thinking about separation of powers such as modern democracy(eg separation of church and state). While not directly comparable, it's im

Perhaps we should start thinking about separation of powers such as modern democracy(eg separation of church and state). While not directly comparable, it's imo a good place to start. Advertising companies perhaps shouldn't also be selling products (what's to stop them pushing their own product vs someone else's), social media vs banking (a SM can push their Bank, or similar service though we'll, that would be advertising wouldn't it). This isn't a terribly well fleshed out thought, but hopefully a conversation starter.

Mvhsz 7y ago
Good point. There's a precedent for separating industries when it's in the public interest [0]. I think the argument needs to be that housing both industries under a single roof creates a conflict of interest that's too strong to be managed through normal regulatory actions like fines. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_investment_and_retail_banking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_investment_and_r...
- iguy 7y ago
  There's also a precedent for preventing companies with a monopoly in something from expanding into other businesses, like Bell. Clearly facebook isn't a recognised regulated monopoly like that, but there are similarities.
api 7y ago
Right now it seems we are heading for the CHOAM company. (Fictional company in the Dune 'verse that does everything.) I've joked that Amazon is CHOAM and SpaceX is Weyland-Yutani (from Alien). There do seem to be consolidation / de-consolidation cycles in business though. In the 1980s people also talked about the birth of EverythingCorps. You can see it a lot in 80s sci-fi. In the 90s you had the opposite trend.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  How about then Amazon becomes the state, viola (sic) state controlled production, give everyone an equal share and we have Communism!
  - api 7y ago
    You joke but this is sort of what Marx actually argued. Revolutionary state dictated communism was mostly Lenin. Marx thought capitalism would evolve into communism.
- usrusr 7y ago
  We seem to have both trends concurrently right now: institutional investors push for clean sector separation, when they expect sector A growing they want to be able to buy into companies in that sector with as little baggage in sector B as possible and vice versa. Consequently, "the old tech corporation" (Siemens, Philips, GE) seems to be in a permanent state of shrinkage by spinning out one field after another. At the same time, "new tech" corporations are still growing faster than any sector purity investor agitation could keep up with, some even still under the control of founders so that the entirely different logics of personal empire-building apply.
save_ferris 7y ago
This conversation has been going on for a little while already. Elizabeth Warren directly addresses proprietary markets (i.e. participating in you own) in her plan to break up big tech companies[0]. Her argument essentially boils down to either participating in someone else's marketplace to sell goods, or running your own marketplace without being able to transact within it, but preventing the ability to run and participate within a single market. 0: https://medium.com/@teamwarren/heres-how-we-can-break-up-big-tech-9ad9e0da324c https://medium.com/@teamwarren/heres-how-we-can-break-up-big...
- Tyr42 7y ago
  Which means steam couldn't be created now, which is a little disappointing
  - save_ferris 7y ago
    Not true, theoretically they'd just have to sell their own products on another marketplace.
    - jimbob45 7y ago
      Or offer them at a discount with little to no advertising, which is basically what they did with Orange Box.
      - jrkatz 7y ago
        Or split into steam-the-platform-the-company and valve-the-games-company - and if that happens I predict half life 3 really will follow.
    - paulddraper 7y ago
      They'd divest the resources into Apple Apps Co., which would then be a Apple preferred partner on the app store.
  - nostrademons 7y ago
wslh 7y ago
> Perhaps we should start thinking about separation of powers such as modern democracy(eg separation of church and state). I think it should be in a complete different way: finances should be separated from the state so new financial initiatives based on tech (e.g. Libra, Crypto assets) can be free in the same way that Internet gives us freedom to create decentralized initiatives that cannot be stopped by states. This does not mean that the state is not able to enforce laws against the financial or technology scams in the same way it has laws against pedophilia that cover what church members do.
kortilla 7y ago
So Walmart wouldn’t be able to sell Great Value products. Same with Safeway for signature select. Amazon basics... Kirkland... I don’t think banning vertical expansion is a very good idea. It’s worse for consumers because you’re taking all of the extra efficiency gains out of the market by eliminating the friction between layers.
- inlined 7y ago
  The argument that vertical integration harms consumers typically follows that vertical integration lowers competition and choice by either coercive means (e.g. block pricing by Hollywood studios) or by undercutting competitors only until they go out of business.
jcranberry 7y ago
I was under the impression that the EU outlawed such practices as part of their anti-trust laws.
scarface74 7y ago
So should Apple not be allowed to sell Apple products in Apple stores because it also sells third party products? Should the console makers not be allowed to produce and sell their own games in their own stores? Should Amazon not be allowed to both produce their own content and sell third party videos?

Mvhsz 7y ago

Good point. There's a precedent for separating industries when it's in the public interest [0]. I think the argument needs to be that housing both industries under a single roof creates a conflict of interest that's too strong to be managed through normal regulatory actions like fines. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_investment_and_retail_banking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_investment_and_r...

iguy 7y ago
There's also a precedent for preventing companies with a monopoly in something from expanding into other businesses, like Bell. Clearly facebook isn't a recognised regulated monopoly like that, but there are similarities.

api 7y ago

Right now it seems we are heading for the CHOAM company. (Fictional company in the Dune 'verse that does everything.) I've joked that Amazon is CHOAM and SpaceX is Weyland-Yutani (from Alien). There do seem to be consolidation / de-consolidation cycles in business though. In the 1980s people also talked about the birth of EverythingCorps. You can see it a lot in 80s sci-fi. In the 90s you had the opposite trend.

pbhjpbhj 7y ago
How about then Amazon becomes the state, viola (sic) state controlled production, give everyone an equal share and we have Communism!
- api 7y ago
  You joke but this is sort of what Marx actually argued. Revolutionary state dictated communism was mostly Lenin. Marx thought capitalism would evolve into communism.
usrusr 7y ago
We seem to have both trends concurrently right now: institutional investors push for clean sector separation, when they expect sector A growing they want to be able to buy into companies in that sector with as little baggage in sector B as possible and vice versa. Consequently, "the old tech corporation" (Siemens, Philips, GE) seems to be in a permanent state of shrinkage by spinning out one field after another. At the same time, "new tech" corporations are still growing faster than any sector purity investor agitation could keep up with, some even still under the control of founders so that the entirely different logics of personal empire-building apply.

save_ferris 7y ago

This conversation has been going on for a little while already. Elizabeth Warren directly addresses proprietary markets (i.e. participating in you own) in her plan to break up big tech companies[0]. Her argument essentially boils down to either participating in someone else's marketplace to sell goods, or running your own marketplace without being able to transact within it, but preventing the ability to run and participate within a single market. 0: https://medium.com/@teamwarren/heres-how-we-can-break-up-big-tech-9ad9e0da324c https://medium.com/@teamwarren/heres-how-we-can-break-up-big...

Tyr42 7y ago
Which means steam couldn't be created now, which is a little disappointing
- save_ferris 7y ago
  Not true, theoretically they'd just have to sell their own products on another marketplace.
  - jimbob45 7y ago
    Or offer them at a discount with little to no advertising, which is basically what they did with Orange Box.
    - jrkatz 7y ago
      Or split into steam-the-platform-the-company and valve-the-games-company - and if that happens I predict half life 3 really will follow.
  - paulddraper 7y ago
    They'd divest the resources into Apple Apps Co., which would then be a Apple preferred partner on the app store.
- nostrademons 7y ago

wslh 7y ago

> Perhaps we should start thinking about separation of powers such as modern democracy(eg separation of church and state). I think it should be in a complete different way: finances should be separated from the state so new financial initiatives based on tech (e.g. Libra, Crypto assets) can be free in the same way that Internet gives us freedom to create decentralized initiatives that cannot be stopped by states. This does not mean that the state is not able to enforce laws against the financial or technology scams in the same way it has laws against pedophilia that cover what church members do.

kortilla 7y ago

So Walmart wouldn’t be able to sell Great Value products. Same with Safeway for signature select. Amazon basics... Kirkland... I don’t think banning vertical expansion is a very good idea. It’s worse for consumers because you’re taking all of the extra efficiency gains out of the market by eliminating the friction between layers.

inlined 7y ago
The argument that vertical integration harms consumers typically follows that vertical integration lowers competition and choice by either coercive means (e.g. block pricing by Hollywood studios) or by undercutting competitors only until they go out of business.

jcranberry 7y ago

I was under the impression that the EU outlawed such practices as part of their anti-trust laws.

scarface74 7y ago

So should Apple not be allowed to sell Apple products in Apple stores because it also sells third party products? Should the console makers not be allowed to produce and sell their own games in their own stores? Should Amazon not be allowed to both produce their own content and sell third party videos?