8 ms·
Thiel Urges U.S. Probe of Google's 'Seemingly Treasonous' Acts
- steve19 7y agoThiel is on Facebook's board. So he is on the board of a Google competitor and a company with atrocious morals. Maybe he is just trying to take the heat off Facebook and send Congress in a different direction.
- darkpuma 7y agoI think both companies benefit from the other generally being shifty too, since it let's any discussion about one get derailed with "what about the other?"
- sieabahlpark 7y agoI think both should be investigated. They're just too big and with how they're so vehemently trying to get themselves on every page in the world with recaptcha v3 it doesn't spell well for our privacy. They even changed their motto from don't be evil to "Do the right thing" which is pretty close to "the ends justifies the means" in nature.
- invalidOrTaken 7y agoNah. For better or for worse(I think better, but I can understand thinking otherwise) he's a true believer.
- matchagaucho 7y agoSeems more like a Palantir motivated position.
- killZuckerberg 7y agoIf only he were just seeking the destruction of Facebook, I'd jump right on that fucking bandwagon, and try to drive it myself.
- ETHisso2017 7y agoIt seems like China is becoming a political football for US elites to attack each other with.
- thrwayxyz 7y agoI interviewed with him once. Got on the short list by telling the recruiter that "Palantir is a bunch of really smart guys run by a Bond villain". Not sure if that ever got back, but not being thrown out of the process tells me a lot about the company.
- ALittleLight 7y agoDoesn't it say as much about you that you were applying to work there?
- thrwayxyz 7y agoIf you think that's bad you should see the startup I'm trying to get funding for.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- wyldfire 7y agoThe treasonous-ness seems like an exaggeration/distortion of [1]. > “The work that Google is doing in China is indirectly benefiting the Chinese military,” Marine General Joseph Dunford, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said during a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-google/googles-.. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-google/googles-....
- 0xCMP 7y agoFixed link https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-china-google/googles-work-in-china-indirectly-benefiting-chinese-military-us-general-idUSL1N2110XF https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-china-google/googles-wor...
- temp1827 7y agoI mean, he has a point. It's clear U.S. tech companies have become hugely susceptible to hiring foreign spies and the issue of foreign governments stealing IP is real. There was a very recent public case of Apple's autonomous driving unit stopping a Chinese engineer from leaving the country just as he was bound for China after detecting he had uploaded a bunch of code to a personal account. And most likely many more cases like that we've never heard of publicly.
- nemothekid 7y ago1. Almost every tech company has been acutely aware of China stealing IP for decades now. It's not a new point. 2. Where did Thiel make this point? Thiel does not make the point that the Chinese are stealing US IP. He makes the charged point that Google executives (and somehow not Facebook executives) are Chinese agents. To that claim, I don't think he "has a point". It's in very bad taste to me that Thiel would point this out, and claim the Valley "is getting a little bit of a bad conscience" when he sits on the board of the biggest troublemaker. When Google leaks the personal data of millions of Americans, then maybe should Thiel start throwing stones.
- temp1827 7y agoThe article says "He then suggested Google’s actions were “seemingly treasonous,” asking whether DeepMind or Google senior management had been “infiltrated” by foreign intelligence agencies." To clarify, by stealing I also mean infiltrated by spies that are hired as employees who in turn provide information to foreign governments... And yes, of course this could happen to Facebook as well, but as of today Google/MSFT/Amazon/Autonomous vehicle companies/chip manufacturers are in a different league than Facebook as far as IP that is interesting from a military perspective goes.
- nemothekid 7y ago>To clarify, by stealing I also mean infiltrated by spies that are hired as employees who in turn provide information to foreign governments... Again, this isn't new. This has been happening for decades - just ask Cisco. Wether is treason is one thing, but I'm not arguing it doesn't happen. The radical statement Theil is making here, is that the _executives_ are compromised, and that they _actively_ sabotage the USG in getting Google tech while also sending that information abroad. This is an extraordinary claim that I'm less inclined to take seriously from someone who has been been both negligent in how his own company has handled the data of Americans in his own country and also stands to gain, via Palantir, the weakening of Google's relationship with the USG. >Google/MSFT/Amazon/Autonomous vehicle companies/chip manufacturers are in a different league than Facebook as far as IP I think what is effectively surveillance data on 90% of Americans is a far higher bar than Autonomous vehicle data that hardly works outside of Palo Alto.
- schappim 7y agoRelated story on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20439624 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20439624
- temp1827 7y agoWhy was that flagged?
- DuskStar 7y agoI would assume because the Bloomberg article and Gizmodo article have rather different levels of bias, and that Bloomberg and Gizmodo have significantly different levels of credibility.
- r00fus 7y agoBloomberg still hasn't explained why they published the hit piece on Supermicro/Apple that hasn't been proven or even followed up on. I'd say they do have bias, but it's questionable which has more credibility.
- darkpuma 7y agoProbably worth noting that deliberately aiding the Chinese military is not treason in America right now because America and China aren't at war. It might be other things: unpatriotic, espionage, etc. But not treason itself. Even the Rosenbergs didn't get convicted of treason (America and the Soviet Union were not actually at war. It was illegal to give nuclear secrets to the Soviets, but it wasn't treason.) So generally whenever somebody in America mentions treason, they're being hyperbolic or misleading, or have themselves been mislead. Generally.
- reallydude 7y ago> So generally whenever somebody in America mentions treason, they're being hyperbolic or misleading, Some people simply don't need to understand the distinction between similarly used terms. In the end, prosecutors can file multiple charges but practically pick and choose based on a variety of factors.
- darkpuma 7y ago> "Some people simply don't need to understand the distinction between similarly used terms." e.g. [...] or have themselves been mislead There won't be any treason charges here. Federal prosecutors know that wouldn't work, so they won't bother trying it. Whether or not Thiel knows this, I cannot say.
- jkaplowitz 7y agoProsecutors in the US can't validly charge treason in all but the most extremely rare circumstances, though. "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court." (This comes straight from the Constitution, hence the weird capitalization and punctuation.) The Supreme Court has clarified the definition above, and indeed, it can't apply where no actual assemblage of force against the US was being prepared or used by either the defendant or the enemy to which one is being accused of adhering and giving aid or comfort. Maayyybe the Supreme Court will extend this to cyberwarfare, but that's hard to predict and they certainly haven't yet. Anyway, regardless, the two-witness requirement for every single overt act involved is a very high bar.
- gonvaled 7y agoIf Google trade secrets are relevant for national security, non US governments shouldn't allow Google to operate without revealing those trade secrets to their intelligence agencies.
- dleslie 7y agoThis part is worth considering: > Thiel, a Facebook Inc. board member, argued that the kind of AI developed by DeepMind, which like Google is a subsidiary of Alphabet Inc., should be thought of as a potential “military weapon.” “We’ve been a lot more dishonest about that in Silicon Valley than the nuclear physicists were in the 1940s,” he said in the opening speech at the National Conservatism conference. If one believes this to be true, then how you consider its use to be weaponized can dramatically alter one's view of both Google and Facebook. If it's a weapon like strong encryption, then it is a defensive measure for the benefit of their users, as they are sheltered and made safe by its use. If it's a weapon like any other, then its use is an attack upon those it tracks and analyzes, as they are made less private, more vulnerable, and easier to manipulate. Somehow I don't think Thiel is arguing that Facebook is attacking American citizens, though.
- earthstabber 7y agoStrong encryption is used for offensive measures as well.
- mandelbrotwurst 7y agoHow do you mean? Isn't encryption essentially building a wall around your data - about as defensive as it gets? Is your argument essentially "invaders can carry shields, therefore shields are a tool of attack"?
- redp1ll 7y agohttps://youtu.be/bRkaJg-cQyk https://youtu.be/bRkaJg-cQyk This is why you can’t work with Family!
- robbintt 7y agoIt's hard to take anyone with such a cutthroat capitalist mindset as anything but the sum of their incentives. That goes for Thiel especially because he's promoted this as a strict political belief system.
- CalChris 7y agoIs this Thiel speaking about treason as a New Zealand citizen or as a US citizen?
- rndgermandude 7y agoHe is speaking as Merkel's boy :D
- fzeroracer 7y agoConsidering Thiel's other...business ventures, this is about as 'throwing a stone while living in a glass house' as it gets.
- _iyig 7y agoHaving canceled Project Maven and dropped out of competition for the DoD cloud contract on principle, Google continues to operate an AI center in Beijing. They host conferences with Chinese companies and research institutions who they tutor on the use of Google's ML tools. How much of this knowledge (much of it focused on computer vision and image understanding) has been applied to China's surveillance program in Xinjiang, which has put over 1 million ethnic Uighurs in concentration camps? Why has Google continued to operate their China AI center, which aids and educates China's state-controlled enterprises, while refusing to work with the US government even on vanilla I.T. systems? [0] https://www.scmp.com/tech/article/2165209/google-shrugs-trade-war-shanghai-ai-event-says-partnering-china-talent https://www.scmp.com/tech/article/2165209/google-shrugs-trad...
- dang 7y agoIt seems that you're using HN primarily for political/ideological/national battle. Would you please not? We ban accounts that do that because it destroys the curiosity this site is supposed to be far. Admittedly there's not much curiosity in a highly charged thread like this one, but there's a difference between accounts that lapse occasionally into this and accounts that primarily propagate it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- starpilot 7y agoGoogle certainly needs to be kept in check. We've been too trusting. It is obvious that their search engineers are not simply cool-headed logicians systematically analyzing the foundations of knowledge. They are deeply involved emotionally in their attack on truth and reality.
- malicioususer11 7y agothe real crime is gmail storage limits amirite??? :3
- Nasrudith 7y agoReally Thiel's frankly fascistic rhetoric is far more treasonous than even the absurd worst case of "Google gave access to literally all of their technical data to gain market entry". And here he is calling for abusing power to stifle dissent for exercising their rights of who they work with. What they and the nationalist bedwetter coalition forget is that the Military serves the Civilians. Not the other way around. The whole accusation is recursive bullshit if not fractal bullshit on so many levels. Essentially anything can be considered weaponized. Not only would cars count but when it came out freeze dried food would count as 'weaponized' because of logistical advantages. US government's efforts at promoting cybersecurity have been pretenses to gain power while making it less secure.
- ailideex 7y ago> Really Thiel's frankly fascistic rhetoric is far more treasonous How so?
- didibus 7y agoNot OP, but I'm guessing in the same sense that communist activists used to (still are?) be considered treasonous. Like any active promotion and support against a free democracy and towards another means of organizing society, so fascism, dictatorship, feudal, communist, etc., could be seen as treasonous in a way.
- ailideex 7y agoI see, I was not aware that Thiel was "active promotion and support against a free democracy and towards another means of organizing society" - if that is the case then I guess it would make sense to say he is treasonous. Seems like that would be a relevant tidbit of information to include in the article.
- didibus 7y agoOh, I don't know if Thiel is or isn't. But the parent comment implied that he had Fascistic rhetoric. I don't really follow Thiel, so I can't confirm or deny if he's rhetoric is fascistic or not. If it were though, with his level of power and influence, it could be seen as a challenge to the US democracy. Edit: After doing some quick research, there definitely seem to be evidence of support and active involvement in anti-democratic circles. Now to what extent I can't say. It is also unclear if it is intentional, as in, he could be accidentally promoting and contributing to those circles. But I found sections describing his beliefs that women suffrage was a mistake (because they tend to vote against his agenda), that monarchies aren't so bad and startups are a form of them, that democracy prevents libertarianism and are thus incompatible etc. Now, those could all be misquoted or out of context ofcourse. Even then though, he seems pretty open about the fact that he is not in agreement with the current democratic system and wishes to change it. It all feels a bit my way or the highway. Like since he hasn't been able to have people democratically agree with him and pass the laws and rules which he believes in, he started to look for other alternative means in order to achieve putting those laws and rules in place, which are anti-democratic and tend towards forceful.
- logicchains 7y agoAnyone who thinks Google executives are exfiltrating core IP to China clearly hasn't ever used Baidu, the leading Chinese search engine that makes Bing look good.
- ehsankia 7y agoMicrosoft and Apple do business in China, yet somehow it's Google that's apparently working with the Chinese. These people are honestly out of their mind.
- c1b 7y ago? The logic is really not too complicated. China is using AI to spy on citizens -- Google is creating and freely publishing state of the art versions of this AI. It's pretty clear that there is a worry here.
- throwawaycert 7y agoSo are a lot of other people. We are in yet another AI bubble. It is far, FAR from the first, and will not be the last. Thiel is just yet again trying to paint the ordinary, boring daily activities of his ideological opponents as somehow bad and use the military-industrial complex and national security apparatus of a country he defected from to try and violently suppress them. Another right-wing terrorist isn't news and we should stop giving their insane ramblings coverage.
- turndown 7y agoI always find reasoning like this to be weak. Why is it on Google that China is run by the morally bankrupt?
- scarejunba 7y agoPerhaps it is Linus Torvalds who is the real villain, making freely available a crucial piece of software that China is using to power its surveillance infrastructure. I say we put him to death for his treasonous actions against the free world.
- r00fus 7y agoBloomberg goes a long way to avoid saying that Thiel was speaking at the National Conservatism Conference, a conference with a very biased audience in mind. Just look at the other speech titles like "The Nationalist Awakening". Can this be taken as anything but pure propaganda?
- tomcam 7y agoDo you have reason to disagree with any of the facts he presented?
- thecleaner 7y agoYou can't just throw around the word treason. More than Google Fb should be investigated.
- tomcam 7y agoI agree with both statements. But apparently you have no quarrel with the facts he presented.
- r00fus 7y agoI suspect so-called facts when the framing is bonkers. The assumption that I'm a nationalist would be false, therefore the "facts" aren't really facts.
- panny 7y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqWVH38jtQo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqWVH38jtQo
- buboard 7y agoMight this be informed from evidence he has knowledge about? After all he is very close to Palantir.
- tibbydude 7y agoIs he the new Joseph McCarthy ???. Instead of Slavic commies we now have to look for Asian commies behind every bush ???.
- scarejunba 7y agoThere was a time in San Francisco when everything was blamed on "Chinese steel" until we suddenly found out that Dyson Steel is from Ohio. Then there was deafening silence. Tribalism is a powerful drug.
- oger 7y agoI once met Peter Thiel at an event and kindly asked him if he ever had a 'Robert Oppenheimer moment' with his investment in Palantir. Not surprisingly he diverted and did not provide an answer at all. His non-answer was most telling to me and made me think about his ethics. At least a certain level of reasoning or even PR spin about the positive effects would have been better than this. I left deeply unimpressed about our first and only encounter.
- carusooneliner 7y agoVideo of the Peter Thiel speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JRyy2MM-rI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JRyy2MM-rI
- vackosar 7y agoWhy was this flagged? By the way here is a link to recording https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JRyy2MM-rI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JRyy2MM-rI