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I have mixed feelings about the move of manufacturing to India. Whilst I would like Indians to be economically successful I can't ignore the ecological disaster

I have mixed feelings about the move of manufacturing to India. Whilst I would like Indians to be economically successful I can't ignore the ecological disaster that is happening in their country. It is absolutely terrifying. The air in Mumbai was unbreathable when I visited and it wasn't even ranking remotely near the top in the most polluted city air in India at the time (Delhi's was 3x as bad). Adding to this the much publicised water shortages, growing population putting strain on the already way over-burdened infrastructure, accelerating pace of urban development and a healthy democratic culture which doesn't instil confidence of them being able to quickly rectify these problems once Chinese style growth has been achieved I can only predict a disaster of biblical proportions for India in the not too distant future. I hope I'm wrong but I fear I'm not.

ksec 7y ago
The manufacturing site and everything was set 15 years ago in China with very little pollution consideration in mind. I hope they have learned their lesson and these manufacturing won't bring as much pollution / unit. While I don't expect it to be zero pollution, I just hope improvement are being made, and since Foxconn is working with Apple, I believe they will surely force a few criteria.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
mindfulplay 7y ago
Western concerns imposed on developing countries is not a good idea. Life here is safe and sound for us to think about climate change and other things. When people in India don't even have clean water or electricity they shouldn't give a shit about environment or other things. It took the US 200 years of development before it started working about these things. And the US is / was a developed nation.
- solarkraft 7y ago
  This does not make climate change less of an issue. We're at an important turning point and the developed nations just can't stop it alone. Of course they should be doing way, way more and support ways of cleaner development financially.
  - mindfulplay 7y ago
    Every single one of these new fangled issues was not an issue thirty years ago in the US. So... What makes the West the arbiter of such issues for other countries?
    - rorykoehler 7y ago
      This isn't about east and west it's about today and the past. In fact if you look at the air pollution levels in New York and Chicago in the 70s they were very high and something was done about them. Currently developed nations had the advantage of being able to externalise the environmental cost of pollution without it affecting them as much immediately during development. Developing nations today don't have that luxury. Time is running out.
  - bildung 7y ago
    > This does not make climate change less of an issue. We're at an important turning point and the developed nations just can't stop it alone. India really isn't much of an issue on that front. The 1.3 billion people living in India produce less than half the greenhouse gas emission of the USA, which has less than 1/4 of India's population.
    - rorykoehler 7y ago
      We all know the US is the worst offender for greenhouse gases but there's more to pollution than global warming.
      - bildung 7y ago
        Absolutely! My response was specifically adressing the climate change aspect, not pollution in general.
- danmaz74 7y ago
  Not giving a shit about the environment isn't such a great way to get clean water.
- krageon 7y ago
  If all the "developing countries" don't learn from developed countries' mistakes everyone will be poor 100 years from now, because it'll keep going to shit same as it is now.
  - mindfulplay 7y ago
    Again a priority for the US.. Imagine if British in late 1700s had said and made sure that "we will only hand off this beautiful country to you if you abolish slavery". It took a whopping 100 years before anything happened. These are all imagined, self-righteous concerns. Leave a country to sort out its own misery in its own time. We have meddled and tortured enough out of these countries already. If there is any priority or imposition, I would want to think like Bill Gates... His priorities are aligned with the well-being of the developing nations not the US.
    - krageon 7y ago
      I don't know why you're so into the United States and more importantly, I don't follow what you're saying at all. Are you implying here that country-level concerns are more important than global concerns?
desi_ninja 7y ago
you need a lot of money to fix these problems. successful manufacturing hub will bring that money. This is a pattern. Indian booming tech sector led to a lot of improvements
- AtomicOrbital 7y ago
  Core issue in India is systemic corruption ... failure of rule of law a close second ... Until these are addressed that culture will squander it's future
  - thanks1banks2 7y ago
    Please. It is well documented that systemic corruption was introduced at scale by the East India Company and we carry a lot of arcane baggage from the erstwhile colonial power. We are eradicating it through education and technology to the extent possible, albeit at a slower pace than we would ideally like.
    - alexashka 7y ago
      I don't think anyone is arguing why there is systemic corruption. The parent was merely pointing out that it's a problem today. If it's of any comfort - corruption is alive and well in most other countries as well, they simply have more resources per citizen and as a result, it is better disguised. The solution seems to be to raise the standard of living of everyone involved - corruption is not going anywhere, it seems to be a deeply rooted human trait.
      - SuoDuanDao 7y ago
        That might be an excessively pessimistic attitude - intolerance of corruption is also a deeply rooted human trait. It seems to me there might be some tradeoff between having a flexible society and having a just one, the more leeway any particular actor has, the more they can use that leeway to gain personal advantage. It seems at least possible that a thorough study of the factors affecting levels of corruption could improve the overall system to have both more personal freedom and less overall corruption.
pushtheenvelope 7y ago
Your comment is rather patronising. Every year that goes by where India doesn't raise its standard of living, results in millions of stunted childhoods and lives. India needs all the manufacturing growth it can get. The equivalent to your comment would be Indians on this forum leaving gratuitious remarks about the West ruining the planet with its excessively polluting ways. Just because you cannot see it around you, doesn't mean its not happening.
- code_duck 7y ago
  So there’s the choice of malnutrition or pollution?
  - pushtheenvelope 7y ago
    Nope - I don’t think there is, but the parent (to my original comment) seemed to be suggesting so
    - rorykoehler 7y ago
      You're reading into something that isn't there. The best and most equitable way to improve quality of life is to ensure a clean environment. Pollution is a great leveler, especially air pollution, as rich and poor have to breathe it alike if they wish to go outside.
- rorykoehler 7y ago
  It's not patronising at all. It's the reality. They got major shit to deal with. We all do but theirs is on another scale. Pretending they don't because of some misguided fear of being seen as patronising doesn't change it one bit. Like I said I hope they are successful as I hope we all are so we emerge from this existential threat together stronger and more wise but I fear for a place like India based on what I saw more than I do Europe or the US or even SE Asia.
  - geraltofrivia 7y ago
nyrulez 7y ago
I'm afraid you are right but people in India don't seem to care. I go there every year and life there compared to 10 years ago is night and day. Even in cities that are further away from the big 4 (e.g. north of New Delhi, even in Himachal Pradesh which used to be very clean as the Himalayas start there) have an extremely visible layer of smog, especially in winters. Pollution is pretty bad and water shortage is becoming more common. But surprisingly, neither the government there or the public seem to treat this as a top national emergency. This may sound elitist, but I consider New Delhi an unlivable city. It's a difficult tradeoff. Economic development seems to be the only parameter that matters, especially when there are so many in poverty. Some all time top posts on r/urbanhell are from India (UNPLEASANT IMAGERY WARNING): https://i.redd.it/n8sdntzy8bb11.jpg https://i.redd.it/n8sdntzy8bb11.jpg https://i.redd.it/y7i3lb94b1021.jpg https://i.redd.it/y7i3lb94b1021.jpg (River Yamuna. This river was reasonably clean 20 years ago but now you can see this terrible foam from the pollution and intense garbage disposal into the rivers. And yes, that's people praying, as Yamuna is considered one of the holy rivers)
- whatshisface 7y ago
  Why do they accept their holy rivers being polluted? Surely the religious leadership is not happy with that.
  - srib 7y ago
    > Surely the religious leadership is not happy with that. Hindu religion is not like Catholic Church. Unfortunately, in such issues, it is very fragmented and 'decentralized' with multiple different sects, castes, pontiffs etc. Uttar Pradesh, where Ganga mostly flows has a lot of water heavy low-tech businesses. Leather tanneries is the first thing that comes to my mind. Illiteracy doesn't help either. Things are changing. Ganga in Varanasi and a few other areas are much cleaner in the last couple years than they have been in the past!
  - gingabriska 7y ago
    The religious logic here goes like this "Ganga is so pure, it's literally impossible to make it impure and it has capabilities to wash off all our sins, then how can it possibly be polluted by people bathing/washing their cloths in it?" I tried making people understand, the only way we've forward is making movies which show what can happen if we don't stop these activities then it will begin making sense to people who have no education background.
xenocyon 7y ago
Your concerns are real but not germane to the issue. The main issue with air quality in Indian cities is particulate matter, which has little to do with semiconductor manufacturing or assembly.
- rorykoehler 7y ago
  Everything is booming in India. I can see huge amounts of manufacturing moving there in the coming decade as countries start to fear China.
  - puranjay 7y ago
    This isn't quite the truth. In fact, I'd say that everything has kind of stalled in India. Real estate development has stalled, the auto industry is in a downward spiral (8 consecutive months of negative growth; sales down almost 25% YoY), and demand for consumer electronics is dwindling. There's a credit crunch thanks to banks getting rid of non performing assets. Add to that, there's a shortage of water.
    - rorykoehler 7y ago
      Certainly didn't feel like it in Pune. New towns are mushrooming up along the highway like there's no tomorrow.
      - puranjay 7y ago
        Pune, I reckon, is one of those boom towns since so many corporates are moving there because Bengaluru and Mumbai are too overcrowded. But the car sales slump, at least, is very well documented. There's been a drastic fall in demand and everyone is bandying about myriad reasons (fuel prices, ridesharing, etc.). I just think people don't have enough money
unexpected 7y ago
Let's use your reasons, but look at it from the opposite side: 1) The largest contributor to the poor air quality in India is the practice of burning to clear fields, cook stoves that use wood, and the burning of cow dung [https://www.vox.com/2018/5/8/17316978/india-pollution-levels-air-delhi-health https://www.vox.com/2018/5/8/17316978/india-pollution-levels...]. One easy way to bring these people out of poverty is to provide them with good economic opportunities (like factory jobs!). High-tech factories would demand cleaner, more stable power (natural gas, nuclear instead of coal, wood, cow dung). 2) India's totally overpopulated, agreed. One way to decrease the population growth is to bring these people out of poverty. Every developed country has seen their birth rate decline once they move to the middle class. These guys need jobs, college, etc, and people will start having less kids!
- rorykoehler 7y ago
  Yes it is a timing issue. Can they do it before it's too late?
- sandGorgon 7y ago
  This is super accurate. Fyi - new Delhi has the most stringent vehicular regulations in India. All commercial vehicles in Delhi run on natural gas - both petrol and diesel are banned. India's pollution levels are not industrial or vehicular - they are agriculture waste burning. And they are timed with agricultural harvesting cycles. We have super fragmented farmlands who are really poor and this causes bad practices of disposal . We are a service based economy - but to be able to bring the bottom of the pyramid out of poverty, we need to accelerate manufacturing and bring modernisation into agriculture. Not to mention education.
  - Bouncingsoul1 7y ago
    both petrol and diesel are banned. Do you have a source for this, I tried to look it up but it seems to only be for 15 years petrol and 10 years old diesel cars.
    - envolt 7y ago
glasshead969 7y ago
Democratic process is slow but i am optimistic that these problems will be solved as the country grows richer. It’s chaotic but there is progress in this madness however slow.
harigov 7y ago
I always thought that the Indian population is at a disastrous proportions but I saw this website recently that compared size of a country with another country - https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/country-size-comparison/india/japan https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/country-size-comparison/indi... It seems like India is 9 times the size of Japan and 10 times the population. It's high but its not unmanageably high for a fertile piece of land with good weather for significant part of the year. All your arguments about political system incapable of fixing problems quickly still stand though.
- lm28469 7y ago
  India is clearly an outsider though, even compared to japan: https://pudding.cool/2018/10/city_3d/ https://pudding.cool/2018/10/city_3d/
- therwer34234 7y ago
  Amusingly, villages in India are rapidly getting depopulated much like their Japanese counterparts. Population is mostly an issue in urban centers.
- rorykoehler 7y ago
  I have to hedge my tentative comments by pointing out that India is probably doing the best wildlife conservation job of any country in the world bar New Zealand. That they can faciltate such large populations of tigers and elephants in such a densely populated country speaks volumes in favour of them.
mertnesvat 7y ago
" 1800s England, Manchester child workers were losing their hands to clean dirt from textile machine without stoping them because it can effect their productivity. Same children who has just cleaned narrow chimney. " I think this pollution and all those sufferings are first step of industrialisation you might say what about current england or germany, I guess they suffered enough to make changes.
- rorykoehler 7y ago
  You may be right however I hope we can learn from the past in an effort to continuously improve.

ksec 7y ago

The manufacturing site and everything was set 15 years ago in China with very little pollution consideration in mind. I hope they have learned their lesson and these manufacturing won't bring as much pollution / unit. While I don't expect it to be zero pollution, I just hope improvement are being made, and since Foxconn is working with Apple, I believe they will surely force a few criteria.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

mindfulplay 7y ago

Western concerns imposed on developing countries is not a good idea. Life here is safe and sound for us to think about climate change and other things. When people in India don't even have clean water or electricity they shouldn't give a shit about environment or other things. It took the US 200 years of development before it started working about these things. And the US is / was a developed nation.

solarkraft 7y ago
This does not make climate change less of an issue. We're at an important turning point and the developed nations just can't stop it alone. Of course they should be doing way, way more and support ways of cleaner development financially.
- mindfulplay 7y ago
  Every single one of these new fangled issues was not an issue thirty years ago in the US. So... What makes the West the arbiter of such issues for other countries?
  - rorykoehler 7y ago
    This isn't about east and west it's about today and the past. In fact if you look at the air pollution levels in New York and Chicago in the 70s they were very high and something was done about them. Currently developed nations had the advantage of being able to externalise the environmental cost of pollution without it affecting them as much immediately during development. Developing nations today don't have that luxury. Time is running out.
- bildung 7y ago
  > This does not make climate change less of an issue. We're at an important turning point and the developed nations just can't stop it alone. India really isn't much of an issue on that front. The 1.3 billion people living in India produce less than half the greenhouse gas emission of the USA, which has less than 1/4 of India's population.
  - rorykoehler 7y ago
    We all know the US is the worst offender for greenhouse gases but there's more to pollution than global warming.
    - bildung 7y ago
      Absolutely! My response was specifically adressing the climate change aspect, not pollution in general.
danmaz74 7y ago
Not giving a shit about the environment isn't such a great way to get clean water.
krageon 7y ago
If all the "developing countries" don't learn from developed countries' mistakes everyone will be poor 100 years from now, because it'll keep going to shit same as it is now.
- mindfulplay 7y ago
  Again a priority for the US.. Imagine if British in late 1700s had said and made sure that "we will only hand off this beautiful country to you if you abolish slavery". It took a whopping 100 years before anything happened. These are all imagined, self-righteous concerns. Leave a country to sort out its own misery in its own time. We have meddled and tortured enough out of these countries already. If there is any priority or imposition, I would want to think like Bill Gates... His priorities are aligned with the well-being of the developing nations not the US.
  - krageon 7y ago
    I don't know why you're so into the United States and more importantly, I don't follow what you're saying at all. Are you implying here that country-level concerns are more important than global concerns?

desi_ninja 7y ago

you need a lot of money to fix these problems. successful manufacturing hub will bring that money. This is a pattern. Indian booming tech sector led to a lot of improvements

AtomicOrbital 7y ago
Core issue in India is systemic corruption ... failure of rule of law a close second ... Until these are addressed that culture will squander it's future
- thanks1banks2 7y ago
  Please. It is well documented that systemic corruption was introduced at scale by the East India Company and we carry a lot of arcane baggage from the erstwhile colonial power. We are eradicating it through education and technology to the extent possible, albeit at a slower pace than we would ideally like.
  - alexashka 7y ago
    I don't think anyone is arguing why there is systemic corruption. The parent was merely pointing out that it's a problem today. If it's of any comfort - corruption is alive and well in most other countries as well, they simply have more resources per citizen and as a result, it is better disguised. The solution seems to be to raise the standard of living of everyone involved - corruption is not going anywhere, it seems to be a deeply rooted human trait.
    - SuoDuanDao 7y ago
      That might be an excessively pessimistic attitude - intolerance of corruption is also a deeply rooted human trait. It seems to me there might be some tradeoff between having a flexible society and having a just one, the more leeway any particular actor has, the more they can use that leeway to gain personal advantage. It seems at least possible that a thorough study of the factors affecting levels of corruption could improve the overall system to have both more personal freedom and less overall corruption.

pushtheenvelope 7y ago

Your comment is rather patronising. Every year that goes by where India doesn't raise its standard of living, results in millions of stunted childhoods and lives. India needs all the manufacturing growth it can get. The equivalent to your comment would be Indians on this forum leaving gratuitious remarks about the West ruining the planet with its excessively polluting ways. Just because you cannot see it around you, doesn't mean its not happening.

code_duck 7y ago
So there’s the choice of malnutrition or pollution?
- pushtheenvelope 7y ago
  Nope - I don’t think there is, but the parent (to my original comment) seemed to be suggesting so
  - rorykoehler 7y ago
    You're reading into something that isn't there. The best and most equitable way to improve quality of life is to ensure a clean environment. Pollution is a great leveler, especially air pollution, as rich and poor have to breathe it alike if they wish to go outside.
rorykoehler 7y ago
It's not patronising at all. It's the reality. They got major shit to deal with. We all do but theirs is on another scale. Pretending they don't because of some misguided fear of being seen as patronising doesn't change it one bit. Like I said I hope they are successful as I hope we all are so we emerge from this existential threat together stronger and more wise but I fear for a place like India based on what I saw more than I do Europe or the US or even SE Asia.
- geraltofrivia 7y ago

nyrulez 7y ago

I'm afraid you are right but people in India don't seem to care. I go there every year and life there compared to 10 years ago is night and day. Even in cities that are further away from the big 4 (e.g. north of New Delhi, even in Himachal Pradesh which used to be very clean as the Himalayas start there) have an extremely visible layer of smog, especially in winters. Pollution is pretty bad and water shortage is becoming more common. But surprisingly, neither the government there or the public seem to treat this as a top national emergency. This may sound elitist, but I consider New Delhi an unlivable city. It's a difficult tradeoff. Economic development seems to be the only parameter that matters, especially when there are so many in poverty. Some all time top posts on r/urbanhell are from India (UNPLEASANT IMAGERY WARNING): https://i.redd.it/n8sdntzy8bb11.jpg https://i.redd.it/n8sdntzy8bb11.jpg https://i.redd.it/y7i3lb94b1021.jpg https://i.redd.it/y7i3lb94b1021.jpg (River Yamuna. This river was reasonably clean 20 years ago but now you can see this terrible foam from the pollution and intense garbage disposal into the rivers. And yes, that's people praying, as Yamuna is considered one of the holy rivers)

whatshisface 7y ago
Why do they accept their holy rivers being polluted? Surely the religious leadership is not happy with that.
- srib 7y ago
  > Surely the religious leadership is not happy with that. Hindu religion is not like Catholic Church. Unfortunately, in such issues, it is very fragmented and 'decentralized' with multiple different sects, castes, pontiffs etc. Uttar Pradesh, where Ganga mostly flows has a lot of water heavy low-tech businesses. Leather tanneries is the first thing that comes to my mind. Illiteracy doesn't help either. Things are changing. Ganga in Varanasi and a few other areas are much cleaner in the last couple years than they have been in the past!
- gingabriska 7y ago
  The religious logic here goes like this "Ganga is so pure, it's literally impossible to make it impure and it has capabilities to wash off all our sins, then how can it possibly be polluted by people bathing/washing their cloths in it?" I tried making people understand, the only way we've forward is making movies which show what can happen if we don't stop these activities then it will begin making sense to people who have no education background.

xenocyon 7y ago

Your concerns are real but not germane to the issue. The main issue with air quality in Indian cities is particulate matter, which has little to do with semiconductor manufacturing or assembly.

rorykoehler 7y ago
Everything is booming in India. I can see huge amounts of manufacturing moving there in the coming decade as countries start to fear China.
- puranjay 7y ago
  This isn't quite the truth. In fact, I'd say that everything has kind of stalled in India. Real estate development has stalled, the auto industry is in a downward spiral (8 consecutive months of negative growth; sales down almost 25% YoY), and demand for consumer electronics is dwindling. There's a credit crunch thanks to banks getting rid of non performing assets. Add to that, there's a shortage of water.
  - rorykoehler 7y ago
    Certainly didn't feel like it in Pune. New towns are mushrooming up along the highway like there's no tomorrow.
    - puranjay 7y ago
      Pune, I reckon, is one of those boom towns since so many corporates are moving there because Bengaluru and Mumbai are too overcrowded. But the car sales slump, at least, is very well documented. There's been a drastic fall in demand and everyone is bandying about myriad reasons (fuel prices, ridesharing, etc.). I just think people don't have enough money

unexpected 7y ago

Let's use your reasons, but look at it from the opposite side: 1) The largest contributor to the poor air quality in India is the practice of burning to clear fields, cook stoves that use wood, and the burning of cow dung [https://www.vox.com/2018/5/8/17316978/india-pollution-levels-air-delhi-health https://www.vox.com/2018/5/8/17316978/india-pollution-levels...]. One easy way to bring these people out of poverty is to provide them with good economic opportunities (like factory jobs!). High-tech factories would demand cleaner, more stable power (natural gas, nuclear instead of coal, wood, cow dung). 2) India's totally overpopulated, agreed. One way to decrease the population growth is to bring these people out of poverty. Every developed country has seen their birth rate decline once they move to the middle class. These guys need jobs, college, etc, and people will start having less kids!

rorykoehler 7y ago
Yes it is a timing issue. Can they do it before it's too late?
sandGorgon 7y ago
This is super accurate. Fyi - new Delhi has the most stringent vehicular regulations in India. All commercial vehicles in Delhi run on natural gas - both petrol and diesel are banned. India's pollution levels are not industrial or vehicular - they are agriculture waste burning. And they are timed with agricultural harvesting cycles. We have super fragmented farmlands who are really poor and this causes bad practices of disposal . We are a service based economy - but to be able to bring the bottom of the pyramid out of poverty, we need to accelerate manufacturing and bring modernisation into agriculture. Not to mention education.
- Bouncingsoul1 7y ago
  both petrol and diesel are banned. Do you have a source for this, I tried to look it up but it seems to only be for 15 years petrol and 10 years old diesel cars.
  - envolt 7y ago

glasshead969 7y ago

Democratic process is slow but i am optimistic that these problems will be solved as the country grows richer. It’s chaotic but there is progress in this madness however slow.

harigov 7y ago

I always thought that the Indian population is at a disastrous proportions but I saw this website recently that compared size of a country with another country - https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/country-size-comparison/india/japan https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/country-size-comparison/indi... It seems like India is 9 times the size of Japan and 10 times the population. It's high but its not unmanageably high for a fertile piece of land with good weather for significant part of the year. All your arguments about political system incapable of fixing problems quickly still stand though.

lm28469 7y ago
India is clearly an outsider though, even compared to japan: https://pudding.cool/2018/10/city_3d/ https://pudding.cool/2018/10/city_3d/
therwer34234 7y ago
Amusingly, villages in India are rapidly getting depopulated much like their Japanese counterparts. Population is mostly an issue in urban centers.
rorykoehler 7y ago
I have to hedge my tentative comments by pointing out that India is probably doing the best wildlife conservation job of any country in the world bar New Zealand. That they can faciltate such large populations of tigers and elephants in such a densely populated country speaks volumes in favour of them.

mertnesvat 7y ago

" 1800s England, Manchester child workers were losing their hands to clean dirt from textile machine without stoping them because it can effect their productivity. Same children who has just cleaned narrow chimney. " I think this pollution and all those sufferings are first step of industrialisation you might say what about current england or germany, I guess they suffered enough to make changes.

rorykoehler 7y ago
You may be right however I hope we can learn from the past in an effort to continuously improve.