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Any chance of the code being released or a cepheus style answer key being provided? http://poker.srv.ualberta.ca/strategy http://poker.srv.ualberta.ca/strategy

noambrown 7y ago
I don't think the poker world would be happy with us if we did that. Heads-up limit hold'em isn't really played professionally anymore, but six-player no-limit hold'em is very popular.
- Avamander 7y ago
  As other commenters have said, I do too think you're delaying the inevitable but releasing now would mean you get credited with the first free solution.
- andr3w321 7y ago
  It depends who you ask. I think it's inevitable that it's released one day. By not releasing you're just delaying it. All the top high stakes players already have solvers that they've spent a lot of money developing and studying privately. They would definitely be upset with you, but by releasing the code you are democratizing the information to all the midstakes pros who want to study but don't have the resources to pay developers and solve the game privately.
  - floodyberry- 7y ago
    If you're already using programs to help you, I don't see how you can be upset if someone else is cheating better than you are.
- ewhauser421 7y ago
  Have you thought about open sourcing the non-AI pieces? It would be great for other researchers so they wouldn’t have to build the poker pieces from scratch
  - noambrown 7y ago
    There is some open-source code in this area, and hopefully there will be more going forward. Here's one example: https://github.com/EricSteinberger/Deep-CFR https://github.com/EricSteinberger/Deep-CFR
    - home_project123 7y ago
      a. Is CFR applicable in single player hidden-information games? (e.g. state is initially hidden, gradually revealed to the agent, but there is not adversary) b. How much more efficient is the improved search algorithm? the $150 number sounds like a couple of order of magnitudes..
      - noambrown 7y ago
        a. There was this paper a couple years ago applying CFR to single-agent settings: https://arxiv.org/abs/1710.11424 https://arxiv.org/abs/1710.11424 b. It really depends on the game and the situation. It can be several orders of magnitude in six-player poker. In other games, it can be even more.
- nradov 7y ago
  Why are you concerned about the happiness of the poker world?
  - anbop 7y ago
    Well if they upset the poker world do you think they would have top pros willing to go on record endorsing them?
    - nradov 7y ago
      Top pros will endorse whatever they're paid to endorse.
      - icelancer 7y ago
        This is falsifiable by any number of cases, but Isaac Haxton spurning PokerStars is probably one of the best examples so others see your comment is not universally applicable. https://upswingpoker.com/isaac-haxton-pokerstars-partypoker/ https://upswingpoker.com/isaac-haxton-pokerstars-partypoker/
        pbhjpbhj 7y ago
        >However, Haxton isn’t accepting PokerStars’ olive branch as he was among the victims defrauded by the online giant for millions of dollars. I'm not sure the really provides strong opposition to the GP's claim.
        icelancer 7y ago
        PokerStars offered to make him - and him alone - whole through sponsorship dollars. Haxton used to be their lead pro and is widely considered one of the very best players in the world.
  - nickpsecurity 7y ago
    It could just be for ethical reasons. I think anbop has a good reason even for unethical folks: hitting the best players hard in their wallets will definitely make it harder to recruit them for comparisons that validate these experiments. My prediction is that releasing this software will lead to profitable cheating like what people do with Blackjack at casinos.
- wolco 7y ago
  By not releasing it, it doesn't validate the experiment. How can we be sure there wasn't human support?
- asdfman123 7y ago
  Someone watch this guy and see if he buys any fancy watches or nice cars in the next few years. ;)
- CamperBob2 7y ago
  Doesn't that make it a rather poor candidate for a scientific paper? Chest-thumping without data and code is, well, chest-thumping without data and code.
- unityByFreedom 7y ago
  Why not run the bot, post its proceeds transparently online, and donate everything to charity? By not releasing it, you're ensuring a higher concentration of money in the hands of a few, IMO. Anyone with access to this source code could run a bot themselves, or employ someone to do so. Plus, if you've accomplished this, no doubt someone can replicate it.

noambrown 7y ago

I don't think the poker world would be happy with us if we did that. Heads-up limit hold'em isn't really played professionally anymore, but six-player no-limit hold'em is very popular.

Avamander 7y ago
As other commenters have said, I do too think you're delaying the inevitable but releasing now would mean you get credited with the first free solution.
andr3w321 7y ago
It depends who you ask. I think it's inevitable that it's released one day. By not releasing you're just delaying it. All the top high stakes players already have solvers that they've spent a lot of money developing and studying privately. They would definitely be upset with you, but by releasing the code you are democratizing the information to all the midstakes pros who want to study but don't have the resources to pay developers and solve the game privately.
- floodyberry- 7y ago
  If you're already using programs to help you, I don't see how you can be upset if someone else is cheating better than you are.
ewhauser421 7y ago
Have you thought about open sourcing the non-AI pieces? It would be great for other researchers so they wouldn’t have to build the poker pieces from scratch
- noambrown 7y ago
  There is some open-source code in this area, and hopefully there will be more going forward. Here's one example: https://github.com/EricSteinberger/Deep-CFR https://github.com/EricSteinberger/Deep-CFR
  - home_project123 7y ago
    a. Is CFR applicable in single player hidden-information games? (e.g. state is initially hidden, gradually revealed to the agent, but there is not adversary) b. How much more efficient is the improved search algorithm? the $150 number sounds like a couple of order of magnitudes..
    - noambrown 7y ago
      a. There was this paper a couple years ago applying CFR to single-agent settings: https://arxiv.org/abs/1710.11424 https://arxiv.org/abs/1710.11424 b. It really depends on the game and the situation. It can be several orders of magnitude in six-player poker. In other games, it can be even more.
nradov 7y ago
Why are you concerned about the happiness of the poker world?
- anbop 7y ago
  Well if they upset the poker world do you think they would have top pros willing to go on record endorsing them?
  - nradov 7y ago
    Top pros will endorse whatever they're paid to endorse.
    - icelancer 7y ago
      This is falsifiable by any number of cases, but Isaac Haxton spurning PokerStars is probably one of the best examples so others see your comment is not universally applicable. https://upswingpoker.com/isaac-haxton-pokerstars-partypoker/ https://upswingpoker.com/isaac-haxton-pokerstars-partypoker/
      - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
        >However, Haxton isn’t accepting PokerStars’ olive branch as he was among the victims defrauded by the online giant for millions of dollars. I'm not sure the really provides strong opposition to the GP's claim.
        icelancer 7y ago
        PokerStars offered to make him - and him alone - whole through sponsorship dollars. Haxton used to be their lead pro and is widely considered one of the very best players in the world.
- nickpsecurity 7y ago
  It could just be for ethical reasons. I think anbop has a good reason even for unethical folks: hitting the best players hard in their wallets will definitely make it harder to recruit them for comparisons that validate these experiments. My prediction is that releasing this software will lead to profitable cheating like what people do with Blackjack at casinos.
wolco 7y ago
By not releasing it, it doesn't validate the experiment. How can we be sure there wasn't human support?
asdfman123 7y ago
Someone watch this guy and see if he buys any fancy watches or nice cars in the next few years. ;)
CamperBob2 7y ago
Doesn't that make it a rather poor candidate for a scientific paper? Chest-thumping without data and code is, well, chest-thumping without data and code.
unityByFreedom 7y ago
Why not run the bot, post its proceeds transparently online, and donate everything to charity? By not releasing it, you're ensuring a higher concentration of money in the hands of a few, IMO. Anyone with access to this source code could run a bot themselves, or employ someone to do so. Plus, if you've accomplished this, no doubt someone can replicate it.