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Older Americans are alone half their waking hours, on average
- DisruptiveDave 7y agoObligatory reminder: alone does not equal lonely. Not all the time. Not for everyone.
- chmod775 7y agoSo they're more social than I am?
- gcoda 7y agoi bet you are not alone if you consider online messaging.
- Allower 7y agoand you would be wrong
- colonelpopcorn 7y agoNot even close to being with people in person.
- iamnotacrook 7y agoThat's right - being connected to someone on a computer is not the same as being physically with them. But you also aren't alone, either.
- qwsxyh 7y agoSignificantly better than nothing.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y agoIt actually might be worse. I hypothesize that the kinds of interactions we have online are the social equivalent of "empty calories". They tweak the brain's reward mechanism for socializing without actually getting any of the real benefits.
- Loughla 7y agoOh man, I think you hit on something there. You get all of the satisfaction of interaction, but don't have to worry about being challenged, learning from any mistakes, or really learning anything; you can block anything you don't like. I think you're onto something with that.
- samlevine 7y agoI feel like being r-x to the world is fairly extroverted.
- NikolaeVarius 7y agoDefinitely much more human interaction than me. Don't remember the last time I had a genuine human interaction.
- nickthegreek 7y agoMy father passed away around 11 years back and it wasn't til several years later that it really hit me that my mom was basically all alone for large portions of her day out on the a country property. I now call her and chat for about 20 minutes a day on my commute home. I know that it has made a huge difference in her life and I feel more connected to her than ever before. I highly recommend that others take some time to see if their loved ones are in a similar situation and if so, try and reach out on some sort of scheduled basis.
- snarf21 7y agoThis is also why a lot of spouses pass soon after the other. They lose hope and the reason to get out of bed each morning. I keep assuming that as jobs are automated away that we are going to have more people who can do work like visiting elderly people. It also can more than pay for itself by keeping people on their medication regimens and preventing costly hospital visits.
- howard941 7y agoIn a perfect world we'd do this and the companions would be well-paid - better paid than they were for the automated jobs in that this new gig can't and shouldn't be automated. In our actual world the funds saved would find their way to the caregivers but when does that ever happen? Some intermediary will be there capturing most of the value, as is the nature of 21st century America. Companions are rarely off the books highly paid no bennies, much more likely off the books underpaid undocumented immigrants or minimum wage workers hardly able to house and feed themselves much less compassionately care for their wards.
- anbop 7y agoWhy consume economic output to visit elderly people? Why not create societal structures so that elderly people have relationships like the 90 year old Italian men I see in the local park who smoke and yell at each other all day?
- smegger001 7y ago
- swiley 7y agoStop making assumptions about other people (they’re lazy/dangerous/whatever) and go out and be friendly. This Wednesday I wandered around the city playing ukulele at 3 in the morning and I met all kinds of interesting people, everything from this beautiful female graduate student who just wanted to talk about schoastics to someone who wanted me to call his “friend in Florida.” Just go out and be with people, they’re all lonely too.
- grenoire 7y agoI don't know how people do that man, it's just very hard for some (quite a lot nevertheless) people to get out there and be vulnerable.
- _jal 7y agoI can't tell if you're actually interested in suggestions, but if you are, start with something less intimidating that late-night ukulele, and try reframing what you're doing. If you do encounter something negative when you experiment, try to treat it analytically as well as emotionally. Just how bad, objectively speaking, was feeling a little embarrassed around some folks you'll never see again? Paradoxically, you may find that putting yourself out there a little can be a surprising source of strength.
- fipar 7y ago"You'll minimize some strangers' sadness with a piece of wood and plastic, Holy fuck it's so fantastic playing ukelele"
- Ididntdothis 7y agoYou have to understand that this is more difficult for some people than it is for others. If it works for you, good for you, but it’s not an option for others. I don’t have the ability to “just” go out and meet people and strike up a conversation.
- tvanantwerp 7y agoI'm glad you're getting out there, meeting people, and spreading happiness. But if you wander past my bedroom window at 3am playing an instrument, expect to have something heavy thrown at your head. ;-)
- Allower 7y agoMaybe they should find some friends..
- argd678 7y agoLooking forward to more alone time for sure.
- willyg123 7y agoA YC company, Papa, is trying to solve this problem joinpapa.com
- analognoise 7y agoTech ruined privacy, the internet, and large parts of democracy. I think maybe it's time we put tech where it belongs: in the damn trunk. Going to a YC company to fulfill a basic human need is exactly why tech belongs in aforementioned trunk.
- RobertDeNiro 7y agoTech is a tool, not a one size fits all solution.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y agoI'd pretty much agree. Technology should be a tool to make our lives better, and when it is obvious it is not doing that we should get rid of it.
- dymk 7y agoI'm skeptical of this because the elderly are one of the most vulnerable populations out there, and it's hard enough to prevent elder abuse even on vetted, professional platforms. Outsourcing elderly care to the gig economy (intentionally to college students) sounds like a step in the wrong direction for providing reliable, safe elderly care. I hope they're able to overcome that challenge.
- aparker1210 7y agoWe have and put a huge amount of effort into ensuring only the right students are doing the service. This isn't typical gig economy.
- Loughla 7y agoOooo, that is a platform just waiting to be exploited by conmen/women. The elderly are notoriously easy to scam and notoriously confused by technology; and you're collecting them in one spot to make it easier. What do your controls on 'grandkids' look like? Because if I put on my black hat, I could absolutely feed an addiction for pills, valuables to pawn, or just straight up money through that service.
- mikece 7y agoThis seems like an area where technology would be well suited to help. I'm not simply saying "Just give 'em a Chromebook and a Facebook account" but VoIP and VTC would be ideal for helping the "alone elderly" be connected with the community around them... perhaps connecting with and mentoring children who are themselves frequently alone. Just a thought... it's certainly something I can easily imaging being in an Apple/Google/Microsoft keynote about how they are using technology to help improve the lives and communities of people.
- ryanmercer 7y agoI'm 34 and once you add in the weekends I am and talking is extremely discouraged at work, in an open office, so even at work you're basically alone just siting there listening to music or podcasts all day. At Gym1 I talk to my lifting coach but most of the time I'm in my head focused on training, after that at Gym2 I'm just trying to do my accessory work and conditioning and don't talk to anyone other than "hey" back to "hey Ryan" from the staff at the door. I go home and my retired mother that lives with me stays in her room and I go to mine, rinse and repeat. Not entirely by choice but all my friends are married with kids and have zero free time.
- jfk13 7y agoI'm not quite sure whether you're saying you wish you were less alone, or that you're fine with how things are. But what strikes me in your comment is that once you leave your ("basically alone") work situation, you're choosing to spend a lot of your discretionary time doing "alone" stuff in a gym. Might it be healthier overall (even if less focused on specific physical outcomes) to spend some of that time and energy engaging in a more social activity?
- ryanmercer 7y ago>you're choosing to spend a lot of your discretionary time doing "alone" stuff in a gym. Might it be healthier overall (even if less focused on specific physical outcomes) to spend some of that time and energy engaging in a more social activity? I'm not going to the gym for general health or to pump out bicep curls for the ladies, I'm a strength athlete. At gym1 if I'm not actively using a barbell, I'm sitting down trying to recover for the next set. At gym2 I'm trying to get my accessory work and conditioning done so I can get home 12 hours after walking out the door for work so I can have 3 hours before bed to eat/shower/read/watch tv. The weekends are my free time, a childless couple that lives a half hour late rand I will go get food but that's pretty much down to quarterly because the weekend for them is also their downtime when they have to do everything, including see their families that both live an hour or so away. The rest of my friends all have kids and the weekends is when their kids have the bulk of their events from birthday parties to sleep overs to sports/dance. And as far as making new friends, I can't just walk up to strangers in public "Hello fellow biotic doing their groceries, I see you're buying beans, I too eat beans, let us be friends and go do something after we take our groceries home". Add in the fact I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, where it's extremely abnormal to not be married with kids in your early 20s, and even there I'm the odd man out. Everyone there is busy with family stuff too constantly and the bulk of the social events are youth-centered. Basically I walk around life getting excited when I think someone is waving to me only to be gut-punched with an operating chainsaw when they were waving to there stranger behind me. Or God help me, when someone does actually say hi or ask me how it's going my brain just starts flashing "error, does not compute" because I've been so long without regular social interaction I forget how to respond.
- zeroonetwothree 7y agoI’m jealous. Being alone for 60% of my waking hours is the sweet spot.
- Ididntdothis 7y agoThere is a difference between being alone by choice or just being alone.
- whatshisface 7y agoWhat if 40% was with coworkers you didn't like? Then you're around people you enjoy for 0% of your waking hours.
- ixtli 7y agoAs an anecdote, I've lived the majority of my life in America (born and raised middle class on the east coast in a wealthy area) and if I was tasked with writing an account of my time here it would be focused around one thing: alienation. American life is atomized and consistently getting more so. For anyone who sits around and thinks about why people are the way they are here I highly encourage you to consider that people are alone. Alone in life, alone at their apartment, alone when they struggle, alone when they die. It's to the point where we regard married couples that live a 20 minute drive from anything as not being alone when they really are. Most adults I know have a relationship with their immediate family that I would regard as acquaintanceship. Part of this is culture (Americans fetishize a sort of "rugged individualism" where you alone can solve every problem you're faced with or else it's not a real problem) and part of it is civil engineering. You need a car to live nearly everywhere, there's almost no public transit infrastructure, etc. EDIT: Since this is popular I wanna surface something that people have been saying: it definitely doesn't require being far away physically from others to feel alone. I live in Manhattan and big cities can be extremely alienating depending on the person.
- toomuchtodo 7y agoI agree entirely with this. I can only speak for myself and my wife (mid 30s), but we are making active efforts to combat this in our family and social circle. Our house is large enough to take in parents (parents still have hangups about how "they should be able to take care of themselves and live by themselves"; we'll be waiting if and when they change their mind), extended family, and friends, we host family dinners once a week (family friends are invited, all are welcome), and we prioritize interpersonal relationships over material possession acquisition and meaningless work (some possessions are required, and not all work is meaningless, but I hope I got my point across). Fighting loneliness requires active effort. You are not going to care one bit if you bought that extra widget or got an extra story in on your sprint later in life. Put time into what matters: people.
- ixtli 7y agoThere might not even be anything you can do if its systemic! Honestly as I get older (im 32) i find how fucking lucky i was to have been brought up in a really really strong family (half is italian, half is european jewish.) Its amazing the degree to which this has helped me be a normal person with good coping mechanisms.
- howard941 7y agoWhen I was a yute my grandmother used to go to a senior center for cards, talk, company, and her three children lived around the corner or upstairs. In NYC that was possible: Everything walkable. She lived well into her 100s. I don't now how they do it down here in Fla where nothing's walkable and public transportation's laughable and social services can't keep up.
- CriticalCathed 7y agois-is that a bad thing?
- Gene_Parmesan 7y agoIf you are someone who needs regular instances of social contact in order to feel connected to the world and to avoid depression and feelings of isolation, then yes. The important thing to remember is that many elderly are alone for such significant chunks of their days by force, not by choice. If you choose to be alone because you (like me) are an introvert and value your time to yourself to explore your interests, that is a very different situation than someone who is essentially house bound and has no choice in the matter.
- theflyinghorse 7y agoMy intuition is to say yes. We are, after all, social animals and throughout history have always thrived in groups. I recognize that I am personally an extrovert so the thought of being alone and isolated like that really bugs me and other people might be introverted and perhaps loneliness and isolation is what suits them.
- efa 7y agoAs the article points out, there is correlation between social isolation and medical issues.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- thow_leet 7y agoI just turned 40 and have done a complete 180 from extroversion to introversion in the last two years so don’t see this as a bad thing. Was checking up on the psychology of it and checks out as totally normal. Extroversion in youth was selected for to provide mating opportunities, but wears off as we age.
- notus 7y agoThis resonates a lot with my experience and reminds me of a short book I read by Sebastian Junger called Tribe. His focus is more on the tribal aspect of military life and that the disassociation with a close knit group or a tribe is part of what leads to PTSD as there are quite a few people who have been in the military who have PTSD despite not ever being in combat. He claims that in smaller tribal communities mental illness is less common and that in times of extreme hardship or disaster people report decrease in symptoms of mental illness as they become more valued by their community as a helper during the hardship. I interact with people normally at work, but outside of work I'm usually alone and it is hard to ignore the negative effects of it on my mental health. If I'm around people after work I generally feel more positive and have less anxiety, but left alone for too long and my anxiety will start to take over. I really miss my younger years where I had close groups of friends and we hung out all the time.
- technothrasher 7y agoIf I'm around people after work I generally feel more positive and have less anxiety, but left alone for too long and my anxiety will start to take over. Interesting. I'm the exact opposite. When I have to do things like hang around with people from work for too long, my anxiety increases until I can get away and be alone. I'm not a social recluse, I have a wife and kid, and I enjoy spending time with them, I try to make time for my parents at least weekly, and I enjoy hanging out with my friends. But definitely anxiety builds as my time in contact with other people increases. Alone is often my "happy place".
- taborj 7y agoI believe this is an "introvert" vs "extrovert" situation. I'm introverted and I'm like you - spending time with folks after work is a chore. I prefer to hang around "known associates" as it were - my wife, my kid, my in-laws, my friends. Spending time with folks outside those circles is draining for me; I dread doing it, and I look forward to getting home again. However, I have a few folks in my close circles that are clear extroverts. They love going out with people after work, always seem to be somewhere doing something talking to someone. They never want to go home because home is "boring."
- YeahSureWhyNot 7y agoThat's not a bad thing, people she embrace loneliness and learn to be able to enjoy it. What's the point of speaking about it like it's some kind of a problem with the person. If someone wants company then they can go socialize with whoever is available, otherwise maybe they don't wanna socialize with what's available and prefer to just chill on their own.
- mykowebhn 7y agoWhile you make a good point, I think you're missing the distinction between people who choose to be alone and people who are alone not by choice.
- stirfrykitty 7y agoI may be in the minority, but the older I get the more I want to be alone. I love my wife and kids, but there is almost too much pressure anymore to do this, do that. There are too many hands on my time. I recharge only when alone. I cannot do it with the TV on, kids in the background, etc. It's one of the reasons I like hunting. Just me and the great outdoors. I really like getting up at 0430 and being in the deer blind by 0600, watching the night drain from the firmament and knowing I'm alone for several miles in any direction save animals. It's a great feeling. It's also why I tend to favor holidays in remote places with few to no tourists. My wife also likes this approach. Editing to say that schools are now offering summer sports, which I hate, because it means less time in the evenings to relax after work. American culture is too busy. Too many games, too many expectations of parents to commit to this and that. Too many schools begging for money when I already pay taxes. It goes on and on... Some people need lots of social engagement; I don't. I don't like parties. I do like two or three couples over for a BBQ and beer. It's intimate enough, but controllable enough that there are not competing voices in the background. At work, I'm fortunate to be able to keep the lights out in my office, draw the blinds and stream my psytrance while working. My colleague I office with likes the same things, so it's a win-win for us. People think we're weird that we like it dark, but I've never worked in an IT office where the lights were preferred. I think this may be an IT thing. I also dearly miss when IT was in the data center and not accessible to the general office staff.
- jokoon 7y agoIntroversion/extraversion is a spectrum. It's about recharging batteries and having a balance between a social life and a solitary life. You seem to get a good share of social life, so obviously you need to seek solitary experiences. The problem is that for many, there is a trend where social life is hard to obtain for several reasons.
- rev12 7y ago> I may be in the minority, but the older I get the more I want to be alone. I love my wife and kids, but there is almost too much pressure anymore to do this, do that. There are too many hands on my time. Do you think that could at all be attributed that you are actually more alone now? What I mean is, most families aren't interacting much with people outside their immediate family, whereas in the past the extended family was around and built a support system for those immediate families. If you had your parents, siblings, cousins, etc... around, you might actually have more time to recharge because child rearing wouldn't exclusively be put on the shoulders of the parents. The way that our kids are raised now is incredibly different than the way I was raised. Although predominately raised by my parents, my grandparents, aunts, great aunts, etc... all had an influence and played a part in that upbringing due to the geographics of where everyone lived.
- jackcosgrove 7y agoMany Americans own a lot of idle property. There is a problem now where baby boomers want to age in place in their suburban homes, which locks younger people out of those properties. However these suburban homes have huge yards by global standards, that could easily support the construction of grandparent/in-law structures. It seems like one solution is for the suburban elderly to, maybe with their children's assistance, build an outlying house in the back yard and downsize to there, and let their children occupy the main house for raising grandchildren. Multi-generational housing is a good solution to this problem of elder isolation and general social isolation, and the friction associated with that can be eased given the amount of land many suburban properties contain. I have always thought that the turn towards the nuclear family caused many of the social problems that began to appear in the 1960s. I think we should return to more extended family living situations.
- tvanantwerp 7y agoA big obstacle to having extended families under one roof is that often the children don't want to live where the parents' home is located. I am certain I could move in with my mom tomorrow if I wanted--but it would mean leaving a city I've come to love and the career I've built here to live in a small town with little culture and zero opportunities. I think this is what you see in many rural American towns where only a small elderly population remains, while the young people all moved to cities for economic opportunity.
- m463 7y ago> often the children don't want to live where the parents' home is located I lived with my parents during college. It was expected because they couldn't afford to pay for a dorm for me. I think it delayed my growth.
- stirfrykitty 7y agoThere is no way I want to take care of anyone other than my own children, which is enough. I have three children in my house, which is more than enough. Caregivers also spend tons of their own money on care giving, plus trips to the doctor, dentist, etc. I already don't get enough down time. I also want to actually retire on time and do what I want to do, not babysit the elderly. I don't want or need the hassle of being a care giver. It's not in my makeup to do that kind of thing. In addition, my children WILL NOT be living at home until they are 30. I will have earned my peace and quiet by then and I want to get it. MY job now is to make my children as independent as possible: learning to cook, mow, change a tire, be literate, good with math, critical thinking, and not rely on others for things that should be done alone. And most importantly, avoid debt like the plague. A man should owe no one if possible. My daughter already plans to pay for her own university by dint of military service. We explained to her that we made it on our own, she will have to do likewise. No parent should go into debt for their child's education. It prolongs the parents ability to retire and enjoy their own golden years.
- Circuits 7y agoPersonally, I have gotten somewhat use to being alone. I can only imagine what it must feel like too someone who has spent the majority of their lives with someone else. I think I will start visiting a senior living facility with some of my spare time each week. If you are alone and its weighing you down then my heart goes out to you.
- tvanantwerp 7y agoMy mother has been living alone for over a decade now. Luckily for her, she's very introverted--alone is her preference. Sitting in her rocking chair, reading a mystery novel, is exactly what she wants out of life. I'm sure this isn't normal, particularly for extroverts. My wife doesn't understand it at all. But I take after my mom, and I 100% know that she feels fine with a minimum of human interaction. I do feel bad for the people who aren't like her, though.
- sun_n_surf 7y agoHey man, I am like 35 and alone all the time.
- jokoon 7y agoA thing to remember, which psychology will remind you, is that there is a balance between having social experiences and having solitary experiences. Introversion/extraversion is a spectrum. The problem is that modern, sedentary, good-living-standard, individualistic life tend to isolate people. That's the current model. In more ancient times we were all living in communities because the infrastructure forced us to do so. Now the standard is individual housing, kitchen, toilets, bathroom, etc. I'm okay to have a solitary bedroom for myself, but I wish activities like cooking and food were shared in neighborhoods. Similarly, fences exist for security but they also damage socialization.
- hestipod 7y agoI am an introvert but the isolation I experience is soul crushing. Half of it is location and culture, rural nowhere and no public transport. Half of it is poor health. I am not here by choice and it's sapping my will each day. Living in a city and having people all around easily accessible you wasn't mentally exhausting for me as one would think, it was lovely and energizing. I'd love to be able to move back. But one can still be alone in a crowd. I recall an experience I had in a large city, a dense capital and no lack of people around. I knocked on an apartment door to meet up with someone but had gotten the number wrong. A lovely old woman answered the door in her nightgown. I apologised for my mistake and asked if she knew where the person I was looking for lived. She did not, but she invited me in for tea. I accepted and even thought she didn't speak English and my command of her language was poor, we had a human interaction that both of us needed. She was so incredibly alone there. You could tell by how she lived in this little 25 square meter flat and how things came pouring out of her to me, this stranger. We had our tea, I had my tour and saw the photos, and politely excused myself as I had "things to do". My life hadn't fully collapsed yet, and while I have always been empathetic and didn't rush out, I can't help but often think that I should have stayed longer, done more for her, gone back. I always intended to go back when I had more time, but shortly after my own life accelerated downhill and I never found the chance. It was many years ago and she was quite elderly then. I imagine she might have passed by now. But I often think of her and that little room and if by some magic I can get back there I will knock on that door. There are lonely people all around us.
- aparker1210 7y agojoinpapa.com!
- mcdramamean 7y agoIf you look at the richest people in the world, particularly those that are American... they are all introverts. As much as we used to fetishize celebrity, we now love wealth more. And the wealthiest of us have been made that way due to sitting for hours alone behind a computer. You have to imagine, there have always been these kinds of people; the general culture just didn't give them the space in the narrative of the past ( I remember my great-grandfather would hike 20 miles in the snow both ways to completely alone to read or something... These are rare stories of the past). This is less a binary question than a, can we provide outlets for both ways of thinking, kind of question. Of all the a-la-carte subscriptions many extroverts pay for (Netflix....), I bet they would be willing to pay for a "I don't want to be lonely" service (whatever that looks like).
- AstralStorm 7y agoAh, the benefits of individualism and big distances.
- Rapidfir3 7y agoI always read this threads wondering if there's something wrong with me. I just never get lonely. It's kinda a scary thought but I feel like I could go my entire my life not needing to socialize. I'm married so I do socialize obviously with her and her family and my family and my friends but I've never felt any desire to be around any of them (except my wife).
- noir_lord 7y agoSame, all my favourite activities involve been alone, I don’t even like multiplayer gaming because there are a few too many dickheads, enough to ruin the experience.
- colmvp 7y agoI feel like people who say "I feel like I could go my entire life not needing to socializing" and then continue with "I'm married" clearly aren't seeing how their POV could be massively different if they didn't have an SO.
- kwhitefoot 7y agoStrange article. All it does is recite the statistics but it doesn't explain why anyone should care. It seems from the comments here that solitude is equated with isolation and with loneliness but this is not necessarily the case. I think the problem for many who are lonely is that they feel, perhaps correctly, that they have no choice, no power to change the situation. For me solitude is a necessity but of course if I cannot choose it but instead have it thrust upon me then it would eventually become a burden.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago> While time spent alone is not necessarily associated with adverse effects, it can be used as a measure of social isolation, which in turn is linked with negative health outcomes among older adults. Medical experts suspect that lifestyle factors may explain some of this association – for instance, someone who is socially isolated may have less cognitive stimulation and more difficulty staying active or taking their medications. In some cases, social isolation may mean there is no one on hand to help in case of a medical emergency. It's literally bad for you.
- kwhitefoot 7y agoLooks like you missed my point. Chosen solitude does not imply that there is no one on hand for a medical emergency nor that one has less cognitive stimulation. Nor does it necessarily imply that one is socially isolated.
- opportune 7y agoWonder how much of this can be attributed to suburbanization Also, having had grandparents who were quite lonely in their later years, a lot of this can probably be attributed to a reluctance to move out of their house and into group living situations specifically for the elderly (such as assisted living). If you are not very mobile and staying in a SFH, it can be a 30m ordeal just to get up and use the landline. And traveling outside your home requires someone else to drive and help you get in/out of the car.
- droithomme 7y agoPerhaps something to look forward to in old age then. I get a lot done when I am left completely alone for about 5 days in a row. Having completed difficult tasks I am then relaxed and ready to socially interact and have a wonderful time, with more meaningful depth and connection than is possible when exhausted from the ordeal of interacting with others on a daily basis.
- lanrh1836 7y agoI wonder if we’re ever going to have a real online friending app. Feels like we’re still in a stage where it’s weird to attempt to find close friends online like it was weird to date online 10-20 years ago.
- dfilppi 7y agoIs that supposed to be a negative?
- rrwright 7y agoReminds me of this poetic data visualization: https://www.theatlas.com/charts/HJFYm4uQ- https://www.theatlas.com/charts/HJFYm4uQ-
- patrick5415 7y agoI’m a grad student. I work in an empty lab. I’m lucky if somebody else is there 4 hours a week. I go home to an empty house. Once a week, I have beers with a friend. Count that up. I’m alone (168-8)/168 hours a week. Cry me a fucking river.