7 ms·

Another wave of nootropic supplements is hitting the market

46 points by dantondwa 7y ago

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
solotronics 7y ago
I can imagine that we could use bio compatible chips to accurately measure blood levels of different vitamins and proteins. With this personal bio data you could identify if you have an imbalance of anything and address it, improving congnition and other conditions. Maybe this would be something a company like Apple or Fitbit develops as it seems like a natural extension of the health tracking they already do.
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago
  The first thing we'd need to do is evaluate the optimal value of various vitamins, proteins, minerals, and other supplements for all humans- we're definitely not there yet. Our current blood tests allow a relatively large range of 'normal' for pretty much anything the blood uptakes.
  - phkahler 7y ago
    So you use the new data gathering system to identify what variations matter.
    - unaboomer 7y ago
      And sell the data to governments and advertisers. Sounds like a plan!
- whatshisface 7y ago
  If you go to the doctor, they can do your bloodwork on an old-fashioned big machine. It will probably tell you that everything's fine, unless you're sick or living on Cheetos. If a bio-compatible chip could do the same thing, you'd probably just end up with the same admonitions to not live off of a diet of pure french fries. If new biomarkers were discovered, they would become available on the big machine before they became available on the chips. So, the present is big machines, the future is big machines, maybe the far future is implanted monitoring devices.
- jklinger410 7y ago
  >imbalance of anything and address it I doubt everyone needs the exact same balance of chemicals/nutrients. That puts us back into the "level of pain" area of subjectivity. "Does this new vitamin balance make you feel better?" We'd not want them to feel too good, mind you. That would be drugs!
- kayoone 7y ago
  i am not sure measuring blood levels constantly and interpreting them without real knowledge is a good thing for your mind. I think it's good we don't know about this all the time, if you do regular check up and get an OK back, that fine. Doing it constantly would just create anxieties for a lot of people.
dpflan 7y ago
People want an edge, but everyone wants to take the shortest path. Nooptropics, supplements, etc are perceived path shorteners where perhaps no such one exists. It seems that the power of the mind (i.e. placebo) is the only real thing here. I would like to see how meditation/mindfulness apps and adoption measure against nootropics. == UPDATE == I did not mean to imply that stimulants like caffeine, amphetamines, etc are placebo. I should have made a clear distinction between such classes of nootropics and those that do not contain such ingredients or those that are proven not to have effect. I agree, the coffee I had this morning was not a placebo for increasing my wakefulness.
- aantix 7y ago
  Out of the all of the cognitive enhancers that we know of, across all combinations and dosages, it's all placebo?
- CodeCube 7y ago
  To be fair ... even if it's the placebo effect, couldn't that be argued to be "good enough"? Just like Dumbo's feather, if you feel better then you felt better ;)
  - dpflan 7y ago
    It is; and with that perspective the nooptropics/supplements market shows how much value can be placed on that effect.
- LeifCarrotson 7y ago
  > Nooptropics, supplements, etc are perceived path shorteners where perhaps no such one exists. At least one exists - caffeine. Double-blind studies have proven many times that it improves alertness, which leads to higher scores on many mental performance tests. I find it implausible that no others exist.
  - ohaideredevs 7y ago
    "Multiple studies have shown benefits of caffeine in improving endurance. Military studies have shown caffeine increase vigilance in sleep deprived and one study showed improved shot group tightness." "Recommended dosing is 5mg/kg of bodyweight. Dosing of 200-300 mg has also been used. Higher dosing has been associated with side effects that would decrease performance. Serious adverse reactions have been seen at 2,000mg so this quantity of caffeine should be avoided." The military does some cool studies on these. Source is below, but you can find the actual study with charts on how firearm proficiency rises and drops with dose. https://www.benning.army.mil/tenant/75thranger/content/PDF/RANGER%20TOP%2020%20Supplement%20List.pdf https://www.benning.army.mil/tenant/75thranger/content/PDF/R...
apo 7y ago
The easiest way to think more clearly is the one it seems is least tried: a good night's sleep. The second easiest: periodic disengagement from phones, computers, and people. Stimulants such as the ones discussed in the article interfere with that.
- TallGuyShort 7y ago
  Just plain good nutrition helps too. I've been on Huel (comparable to HN's sweetheart, Soylent) and I find my focus, clarity and mental stamina is noticeably better. A glass of freshly juiced fruits & vegetables makes me feel amazing for hours too. You need to give your body diverse nutrients and a steady metabolism. Empty calories and a sugar crash at 10:30 can really kill your momentum for the day.
- juandazapata 7y ago
  I'd add "workout frequently" as well.
  - 52-6F-62 7y ago
    Yes! Exercise and a diet consisting largely of fresh food. And then some junk food, because life is for the living and you have to find some time for enjoyment as well.
    - marapuru 7y ago
      You are probably throwing in some humor here. But... > And then some junk food, because life is for the living and you have to find some time for enjoyment as well. Interesting how enjoyment is connected to junk food.
      - Donald 7y ago
        Junk food is engineered pleasure. It has everything that your ancestors craved (salt, sugar, fat) compressed into a calorically dense marvel of science.
ejaculatingDude 7y ago
Wow. I really want to perform for the economy. I hope I get a good reciew at work and make a million dollars. Microdosing LSD makes me so important. Look at what the cool kids are doing. I put my penis inside a vagina and cocaine. So cool. Viagra. Wow.
MurlockHolmes92 7y ago
The most important takeaway from all this for me is that Alex Jones unironically sells a nootropic called "The Real Red Pill"
NotTheFBI 7y ago
Please tell me more about where you buy these drugs.
PragmaticPulp 7y ago
Mainstream nootropic supplements have three primary ingredients: Marketing, placebo effect, and very mild stimulants. The hyperbolic marketing material primes the user for maximum placebo effect. When the mildly stimulating compounds kick in, the user can actually feel something. All of the marketing material about enhancing brain function through combinations of carefully-researched ingredients feels validated. The user may only feel a mild stimulating effect, but it feels so much more significant after reading elegant marketing about supporting neurotransmission, helping healthy brain signaling, and promoting healthy cell membranes. It's easy to see why this combination is so effective. Caffeine's stimulating effects are well-known, as are the rebound, tolerance, and dependence that come from repeated caffeine dosing. Remove caffeine from the equation and now the user's expectations are a blank slate, malleable according to whatever marketing materials the team can dream up. The BrainGear supplemented listed in the article is a prime example; The raw ingredients in each drink cost pennies (search Amazon for bulk Acetyl L-Carnitine, Choline, Inositol, and the other ingredients if you're curious). Their largest costs are likely distribution, storage, and marketing. Many of the ingredients can be found in similar quantities in a regular, healthy diet that includes eggs, leafy greens, and a cup of green tea each day. There is nothing magic, noteworthy, or particularly valuable in this supplement, yet here we are reading a vox.com article where a journalist happily links to their product and fails a strawman attempt to debunk it by solving some Sudoku for a couple of days. This is a great marketing success story.
module0000 7y ago
Regular exercise has a hugely noticeable effect on my ability to concentrate and keep multiple mental plates spinning at once. However, it's not available in pill form last I checked. You can do it anywhere, anytime, at any intensity. It's as easy as taking a walk around the block, or as challenging as 50 pull-ups. You control the difficulty, handicaps, and every aspect of the activity. Bonus attributes are it's addictive. Once you do it long enough, your brain will begin to encourage and reward this healthy behavior. Sometimes, it will even punish you for trying to skip exercise with negative emotions and nature's great motivator: shame. The best TV infomercial for mental well-being would be a 72 point font that reads: "turn me off and get off your butt!". EDIT: If you want some help or initial instruction, there is an app for most smartphones that can help you get started at any level. There are many variations of this type of app, but I like the "Johnson & Johnson 7-minute workout" one. You can customize it way beyond 7 minutes, and it has helpful video instruction and voice prompting. Link to homepage: https://www.7minuteworkout.jnj.com/ https://www.7minuteworkout.jnj.com/
- Cthulhu_ 7y ago
  ^ A lot of people want a simple solution to their (perceived) problem, which is exactly what this trend - and most diet trends - prey on. They want to be told what to do without it actually being an effort (like exercise or counting calories). They want to take a pill, follow a certain diet, or live off of a shake that claims to provide you with anything you need without having to bother about cooking or flavor.
- brogrammernot 7y ago
  100% agree. When I was at my best, I was lifting weights every morning before going to work & it’s super addicting. Fast forward to today after a 7 month grueling project, and I’m exhausted every day so I’m being a scumbag and not going to the gym in the AM. I started running a few miles each night about 3 weeks ago, and I’ve been more clear headed than before. Time to get back to lifting heavy things up and putting them back down again in the AM.
- Balgair 7y ago
  > Bonus attributes are it's addictive. Once you do it long enough, your brain will begin to encourage and reward this healthy behavior. Sometimes, it will even punish you for trying to skip exercise with negative emotions and nature's great motivator: shame. Maybe I am non-normal here, but I've no idea what that feels like. Mind, I've run a marathon before, participated in a few organized athletic sports leauges, been on sports teams, improved my weight lifting substantially, and just gone for mile runs and bit of basketball. I've never felt like I needed to go out and exercise. Sitting on the couch has always been just fine. It has always been an internal battle to go out and exercise. I feel like crap after exercising. I'm tired, sweaty, grouchy, my legs are wobbly after any distance run, and it takes about 3 hours for me to wind down. I do sleep better, but I can't exercise after ~6pm if I want to get to sleep by ~10pm. My concentration is shot during the winding down and I can't work or study either. Truely, honestly, I do not like exercising. Like, I know it's good for me, but, man alive, it just sucks to do! Look, I know I am weird here, but based off the data on rates of exercise, I'm not super certain that I'm too far off the average.
benhebert 7y ago
This isn't a new wave. Just the same wave by the same people.
alexhutcheson 7y ago
Scott Alexander at SlateStarCodex wrote a good piece on why these branded combination nootropic supplements are risky and probably a bad idea: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/10/brief-cautionary-notes-on-branded-combination-nootropics/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/10/brief-cautionary-notes...
tcj_phx 7y ago
I remember the first time I used a specific industrial gas recreationally. I felt the arteries in my brain open up, and there was a sort of clarity that wasn't there before. Then the benefits faded into the background, and I now don't notice the effect like I did the first few times. I think remedial biology hacking works this way. If you're deficient in a specific area you'll notice a huge benefit right away. If you don't need a specific hack, you won't notice a benefit. Another brain-hack that I noticed the first few times was Methylene Blue [0], a potent MAOI and general metabolism-booster. I started out with microgram-level doses, and I definitely noticed ... something. But then it too faded into the background, and I don't notice the benefits so much anymore. I still use this one occasionally but this too doesn't have exactly the magic I'm looking for. (I use it on my dog though - she developed a tumor when my dad took care of her for a few months - he took her off all the supplements and fed her what I consider junk. He left for the summer and my dog is back on my supplement program; I think she's got her spunk back. [Edit: google scholar has some articles about methylene blue having anti-tumor activity]). [0] Methylene blue, the cheapest cognitive enhancer: https://selfhacked.com/blog/methylene-blue-the-cheapest-cognitive-enhancer/ https://selfhacked.com/blog/methylene-blue-the-cheapest-cogn... At the other end of the mind-hacking spectrum, the mainstream mental health industry takes cognitive decelerants and tells certain patients that they have a chronic condition that requires chemical lobotomization. Today these drugs are marketed by the prescription drug cartels as anti-psychotics, but originally they were known as major tranquilizers. Patients can't protest the side effects of their medications because the psychiatrist will use the complaint to claim that their patient "lacks insight" into their condition, which justifies the use of force to make them take the drugs the professional thinks they require. Psychosis is mostly a treatable metabolic problem, but patients are much more profitable to the industry by pretending they have chronic conditions. Because the best cognitive enhancers are natural substances and safe patent-expired medications, profiteers swoop in to repackage these vitamins and other Over the Counter substances. Everyone has to figure out what they actually need on their own. The best mind-hack I've had is certain kinds of body work, which helped me relax like nothing else. Sometimes massage/etc practitioners have the magic touch that gets my body to turn off, but they tend to not know what they did and I don't consistently get the effect. It's very frustrating.
MockObject 7y ago
My supreme techniques are * Provigil * 2000IU daily Vitamin D during the darker half of the year * Weightlifting, it really improves mental focus * Get to sleep early enough to wake before the alarm goes off * Strong coffee

46 points by dantondwa 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

I can imagine that we could use bio compatible chips to accurately measure blood levels of different vitamins and proteins. With this personal bio data you could identify if you have an imbalance of anything and address it, improving congnition and other conditions. Maybe this would be something a company like Apple or Fitbit develops as it seems like a natural extension of the health tracking they already do.

SolaceQuantum 7y ago
The first thing we'd need to do is evaluate the optimal value of various vitamins, proteins, minerals, and other supplements for all humans- we're definitely not there yet. Our current blood tests allow a relatively large range of 'normal' for pretty much anything the blood uptakes.
- phkahler 7y ago
  So you use the new data gathering system to identify what variations matter.
  - unaboomer 7y ago
    And sell the data to governments and advertisers. Sounds like a plan!
whatshisface 7y ago
If you go to the doctor, they can do your bloodwork on an old-fashioned big machine. It will probably tell you that everything's fine, unless you're sick or living on Cheetos. If a bio-compatible chip could do the same thing, you'd probably just end up with the same admonitions to not live off of a diet of pure french fries. If new biomarkers were discovered, they would become available on the big machine before they became available on the chips. So, the present is big machines, the future is big machines, maybe the far future is implanted monitoring devices.
jklinger410 7y ago
>imbalance of anything and address it I doubt everyone needs the exact same balance of chemicals/nutrients. That puts us back into the "level of pain" area of subjectivity. "Does this new vitamin balance make you feel better?" We'd not want them to feel too good, mind you. That would be drugs!
kayoone 7y ago
i am not sure measuring blood levels constantly and interpreting them without real knowledge is a good thing for your mind. I think it's good we don't know about this all the time, if you do regular check up and get an OK back, that fine. Doing it constantly would just create anxieties for a lot of people.

dpflan 7y ago

People want an edge, but everyone wants to take the shortest path. Nooptropics, supplements, etc are perceived path shorteners where perhaps no such one exists. It seems that the power of the mind (i.e. placebo) is the only real thing here. I would like to see how meditation/mindfulness apps and adoption measure against nootropics. == UPDATE == I did not mean to imply that stimulants like caffeine, amphetamines, etc are placebo. I should have made a clear distinction between such classes of nootropics and those that do not contain such ingredients or those that are proven not to have effect. I agree, the coffee I had this morning was not a placebo for increasing my wakefulness.

aantix 7y ago
Out of the all of the cognitive enhancers that we know of, across all combinations and dosages, it's all placebo?
CodeCube 7y ago
To be fair ... even if it's the placebo effect, couldn't that be argued to be "good enough"? Just like Dumbo's feather, if you feel better then you felt better ;)
- dpflan 7y ago
  It is; and with that perspective the nooptropics/supplements market shows how much value can be placed on that effect.
LeifCarrotson 7y ago
> Nooptropics, supplements, etc are perceived path shorteners where perhaps no such one exists. At least one exists - caffeine. Double-blind studies have proven many times that it improves alertness, which leads to higher scores on many mental performance tests. I find it implausible that no others exist.
- ohaideredevs 7y ago
  "Multiple studies have shown benefits of caffeine in improving endurance. Military studies have shown caffeine increase vigilance in sleep deprived and one study showed improved shot group tightness." "Recommended dosing is 5mg/kg of bodyweight. Dosing of 200-300 mg has also been used. Higher dosing has been associated with side effects that would decrease performance. Serious adverse reactions have been seen at 2,000mg so this quantity of caffeine should be avoided." The military does some cool studies on these. Source is below, but you can find the actual study with charts on how firearm proficiency rises and drops with dose. https://www.benning.army.mil/tenant/75thranger/content/PDF/RANGER%20TOP%2020%20Supplement%20List.pdf https://www.benning.army.mil/tenant/75thranger/content/PDF/R...

apo 7y ago

The easiest way to think more clearly is the one it seems is least tried: a good night's sleep. The second easiest: periodic disengagement from phones, computers, and people. Stimulants such as the ones discussed in the article interfere with that.

TallGuyShort 7y ago
Just plain good nutrition helps too. I've been on Huel (comparable to HN's sweetheart, Soylent) and I find my focus, clarity and mental stamina is noticeably better. A glass of freshly juiced fruits & vegetables makes me feel amazing for hours too. You need to give your body diverse nutrients and a steady metabolism. Empty calories and a sugar crash at 10:30 can really kill your momentum for the day.
juandazapata 7y ago
I'd add "workout frequently" as well.
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  Yes! Exercise and a diet consisting largely of fresh food. And then some junk food, because life is for the living and you have to find some time for enjoyment as well.
  - marapuru 7y ago
    You are probably throwing in some humor here. But... > And then some junk food, because life is for the living and you have to find some time for enjoyment as well. Interesting how enjoyment is connected to junk food.
    - Donald 7y ago
      Junk food is engineered pleasure. It has everything that your ancestors craved (salt, sugar, fat) compressed into a calorically dense marvel of science.

ejaculatingDude 7y ago

Wow. I really want to perform for the economy. I hope I get a good reciew at work and make a million dollars. Microdosing LSD makes me so important. Look at what the cool kids are doing. I put my penis inside a vagina and cocaine. So cool. Viagra. Wow.

MurlockHolmes92 7y ago

The most important takeaway from all this for me is that Alex Jones unironically sells a nootropic called "The Real Red Pill"

NotTheFBI 7y ago

Please tell me more about where you buy these drugs.

PragmaticPulp 7y ago

Mainstream nootropic supplements have three primary ingredients: Marketing, placebo effect, and very mild stimulants. The hyperbolic marketing material primes the user for maximum placebo effect. When the mildly stimulating compounds kick in, the user can actually feel something. All of the marketing material about enhancing brain function through combinations of carefully-researched ingredients feels validated. The user may only feel a mild stimulating effect, but it feels so much more significant after reading elegant marketing about supporting neurotransmission, helping healthy brain signaling, and promoting healthy cell membranes. It's easy to see why this combination is so effective. Caffeine's stimulating effects are well-known, as are the rebound, tolerance, and dependence that come from repeated caffeine dosing. Remove caffeine from the equation and now the user's expectations are a blank slate, malleable according to whatever marketing materials the team can dream up. The BrainGear supplemented listed in the article is a prime example; The raw ingredients in each drink cost pennies (search Amazon for bulk Acetyl L-Carnitine, Choline, Inositol, and the other ingredients if you're curious). Their largest costs are likely distribution, storage, and marketing. Many of the ingredients can be found in similar quantities in a regular, healthy diet that includes eggs, leafy greens, and a cup of green tea each day. There is nothing magic, noteworthy, or particularly valuable in this supplement, yet here we are reading a vox.com article where a journalist happily links to their product and fails a strawman attempt to debunk it by solving some Sudoku for a couple of days. This is a great marketing success story.

module0000 7y ago

Regular exercise has a hugely noticeable effect on my ability to concentrate and keep multiple mental plates spinning at once. However, it's not available in pill form last I checked. You can do it anywhere, anytime, at any intensity. It's as easy as taking a walk around the block, or as challenging as 50 pull-ups. You control the difficulty, handicaps, and every aspect of the activity. Bonus attributes are it's addictive. Once you do it long enough, your brain will begin to encourage and reward this healthy behavior. Sometimes, it will even punish you for trying to skip exercise with negative emotions and nature's great motivator: shame. The best TV infomercial for mental well-being would be a 72 point font that reads: "turn me off and get off your butt!". EDIT: If you want some help or initial instruction, there is an app for most smartphones that can help you get started at any level. There are many variations of this type of app, but I like the "Johnson & Johnson 7-minute workout" one. You can customize it way beyond 7 minutes, and it has helpful video instruction and voice prompting. Link to homepage: https://www.7minuteworkout.jnj.com/ https://www.7minuteworkout.jnj.com/

Cthulhu_ 7y ago
^ A lot of people want a simple solution to their (perceived) problem, which is exactly what this trend - and most diet trends - prey on. They want to be told what to do without it actually being an effort (like exercise or counting calories). They want to take a pill, follow a certain diet, or live off of a shake that claims to provide you with anything you need without having to bother about cooking or flavor.
brogrammernot 7y ago
100% agree. When I was at my best, I was lifting weights every morning before going to work & it’s super addicting. Fast forward to today after a 7 month grueling project, and I’m exhausted every day so I’m being a scumbag and not going to the gym in the AM. I started running a few miles each night about 3 weeks ago, and I’ve been more clear headed than before. Time to get back to lifting heavy things up and putting them back down again in the AM.
Balgair 7y ago
> Bonus attributes are it's addictive. Once you do it long enough, your brain will begin to encourage and reward this healthy behavior. Sometimes, it will even punish you for trying to skip exercise with negative emotions and nature's great motivator: shame. Maybe I am non-normal here, but I've no idea what that feels like. Mind, I've run a marathon before, participated in a few organized athletic sports leauges, been on sports teams, improved my weight lifting substantially, and just gone for mile runs and bit of basketball. I've never felt like I needed to go out and exercise. Sitting on the couch has always been just fine. It has always been an internal battle to go out and exercise. I feel like crap after exercising. I'm tired, sweaty, grouchy, my legs are wobbly after any distance run, and it takes about 3 hours for me to wind down. I do sleep better, but I can't exercise after ~6pm if I want to get to sleep by ~10pm. My concentration is shot during the winding down and I can't work or study either. Truely, honestly, I do not like exercising. Like, I know it's good for me, but, man alive, it just sucks to do! Look, I know I am weird here, but based off the data on rates of exercise, I'm not super certain that I'm too far off the average.

benhebert 7y ago

This isn't a new wave. Just the same wave by the same people.

alexhutcheson 7y ago

Scott Alexander at SlateStarCodex wrote a good piece on why these branded combination nootropic supplements are risky and probably a bad idea: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/10/brief-cautionary-notes-on-branded-combination-nootropics/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/10/brief-cautionary-notes...

tcj_phx 7y ago

I remember the first time I used a specific industrial gas recreationally. I felt the arteries in my brain open up, and there was a sort of clarity that wasn't there before. Then the benefits faded into the background, and I now don't notice the effect like I did the first few times. I think remedial biology hacking works this way. If you're deficient in a specific area you'll notice a huge benefit right away. If you don't need a specific hack, you won't notice a benefit. Another brain-hack that I noticed the first few times was Methylene Blue [0], a potent MAOI and general metabolism-booster. I started out with microgram-level doses, and I definitely noticed ... something. But then it too faded into the background, and I don't notice the benefits so much anymore. I still use this one occasionally but this too doesn't have exactly the magic I'm looking for. (I use it on my dog though - she developed a tumor when my dad took care of her for a few months - he took her off all the supplements and fed her what I consider junk. He left for the summer and my dog is back on my supplement program; I think she's got her spunk back. [Edit: google scholar has some articles about methylene blue having anti-tumor activity]). [0] Methylene blue, the cheapest cognitive enhancer: https://selfhacked.com/blog/methylene-blue-the-cheapest-cognitive-enhancer/ https://selfhacked.com/blog/methylene-blue-the-cheapest-cogn... At the other end of the mind-hacking spectrum, the mainstream mental health industry takes cognitive decelerants and tells certain patients that they have a chronic condition that requires chemical lobotomization. Today these drugs are marketed by the prescription drug cartels as anti-psychotics, but originally they were known as major tranquilizers. Patients can't protest the side effects of their medications because the psychiatrist will use the complaint to claim that their patient "lacks insight" into their condition, which justifies the use of force to make them take the drugs the professional thinks they require. Psychosis is mostly a treatable metabolic problem, but patients are much more profitable to the industry by pretending they have chronic conditions. Because the best cognitive enhancers are natural substances and safe patent-expired medications, profiteers swoop in to repackage these vitamins and other Over the Counter substances. Everyone has to figure out what they actually need on their own. The best mind-hack I've had is certain kinds of body work, which helped me relax like nothing else. Sometimes massage/etc practitioners have the magic touch that gets my body to turn off, but they tend to not know what they did and I don't consistently get the effect. It's very frustrating.

MockObject 7y ago

My supreme techniques are * Provigil * 2000IU daily Vitamin D during the darker half of the year * Weightlifting, it really improves mental focus * Get to sleep early enough to wake before the alarm goes off * Strong coffee