6 ms·

What does Hurd uniquely solve?

unixhero 7y ago
Well apart from actually building and researching how to build an OS. This stems from a very very deep seated itch. The answer is "because we can". It's volunteer engineering; because they can! Also it is not possible to know how the fruits of innovation might materialise. There might be achievments coming from this in a serendipitous way. The Hurd is a process.
- ianai 7y ago
  After the news about pip being maintained by 5 people, I wonder how many are working on hurd. (As a grown adult, I also envy and more than a little humbled by their ability to devote time to it.)
  - lostmsu 7y ago
    Sounds more like a realization, than news. It is very similar in most of open source.
Fnoord 7y ago
Which microkernel based OSes are ccurrently deployed? Which of these are open source?
- loeg 7y ago
  Fuschia, for example; there are also various L4-based systems, some of which are open source.
- kryptiskt 7y ago
  QNX is widespread in embedded systems, it's sadly closed source (it's a magnificent OS). L4 is a family of operating systems, sharing an API, not code. The ancestor was built to prove that microkernels could be fast. SeL4 is a formally proved variant. They are open source. They are also used in embedded systems, like baseband processors. Minix 3 is an academic project by Andrew Tanenbaum. A few eyebrows were raised when it turned out that it is present in all new Intel chipsets.
- mnd999 7y ago
  Windows NT 3.51 is probably still running on a fair few embedded devices.
  - monocasa 7y ago
    NT was never a microkernel.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Symbian (you can still buy handsets), QNX, L4, INTEGRITY OS, GenodeOS, muen, Fuchsia. Then you have the hybrid ones from Apple, Android with Treble (classical Linux drivers are referring to as legacy driver on the documentation) and Windows is kind of hybrid as well. As of Catalina, Apple was very clear that the long term roadmap for their OSes is to move all drivers and kernel extensions into userspace, which will be a gradual process.
  - solarkraft 7y ago
    That is fascinating. So is everyone moving to be more microkernel-y? It's anyone actually transitioning to a more monolithic system?
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Yes, because when you connect the whole world into a kernel, written in C, every little barrier helps.
    - zzzcpan 7y ago
      It's a natural evolution of any system - monoliths are ok only as long as you don't need much of reliability, security, productivity, cooperation, etc.
      - tomxor 7y ago
        > monoliths are ok only as long as you don't need much of reliability, security, productivity, cooperation, etc As a supporter of microkernels I feel this is more a list of side effects. I'd put it this way: monoliths are ok so long as any critical code stays very small and comprehensible in it's entirety by an individual. It's also respectful of things that are not microkernels. Good microkernels designs operate on the same principle, to achieve reliability and security they keep their critical code very small. It's not invulnerable to bugs, but it is well understood that minimising this surface area is the first step in minimising bugs, the secondary effect is also focusing attention due to minimising total lines of critical code. Microkernels are an attempt to take this to an absolute minimum by adding a layer of abstraction that makes otherwise critical code non-critical. As a mere enthusiast I feel like this is the most useful lesson to take away from microkernels in other software, not triple redundancy or fancy reincarnation servers, but the fact that scale breeds complexity breeds bugs. Making sure the critical parts remain lean and inspectable helps a great deal in all software even when the separation is not as strict.
- robotbikes 7y ago
  HelenOS is an interesting open-source micro-kernel based operating system project primarily fueled by Charles University in Prague. It has a working GUI and USB support. It appears to be driven by various dissertations that add functionality see http://www.helenos.org/ http://www.helenos.org/
- jws 7y ago
  The Intel processors all ship with Minix in their Management Engine. The Apple iOS devices all have L4 in their security enclaves. Both of these OSes have open source options, though the ones shipped in the processors are closed.
harry8 7y ago
"Remember when men were men and wrote their own device drivers." --Linus Torvalds "Come and join the fun!" --Alan Cox Linux wasn't going to big and professional, like Hurd, but better fun. Perhaps those roles have switched?
m463 7y ago
It was probably more unique when it started 30+ years ago. The idea was a mach microkernel + daemons/message passing to do higher-level things. Note the microkernel was also used in nextstep and now macos.

Well apart from actually building and researching how to build an OS. This stems from a very very deep seated itch. The answer is "because we can". It's volunteer engineering; because they can! Also it is not possible to know how the fruits of innovation might materialise. There might be achievments coming from this in a serendipitous way. The Hurd is a process.

ianai 7y ago
After the news about pip being maintained by 5 people, I wonder how many are working on hurd. (As a grown adult, I also envy and more than a little humbled by their ability to devote time to it.)
- lostmsu 7y ago
  Sounds more like a realization, than news. It is very similar in most of open source.

Fnoord 7y ago

Which microkernel based OSes are ccurrently deployed? Which of these are open source?

loeg 7y ago
Fuschia, for example; there are also various L4-based systems, some of which are open source.
kryptiskt 7y ago
QNX is widespread in embedded systems, it's sadly closed source (it's a magnificent OS). L4 is a family of operating systems, sharing an API, not code. The ancestor was built to prove that microkernels could be fast. SeL4 is a formally proved variant. They are open source. They are also used in embedded systems, like baseband processors. Minix 3 is an academic project by Andrew Tanenbaum. A few eyebrows were raised when it turned out that it is present in all new Intel chipsets.
mnd999 7y ago
Windows NT 3.51 is probably still running on a fair few embedded devices.
- monocasa 7y ago
  NT was never a microkernel.
pjmlp 7y ago
Symbian (you can still buy handsets), QNX, L4, INTEGRITY OS, GenodeOS, muen, Fuchsia. Then you have the hybrid ones from Apple, Android with Treble (classical Linux drivers are referring to as legacy driver on the documentation) and Windows is kind of hybrid as well. As of Catalina, Apple was very clear that the long term roadmap for their OSes is to move all drivers and kernel extensions into userspace, which will be a gradual process.
- solarkraft 7y ago
  That is fascinating. So is everyone moving to be more microkernel-y? It's anyone actually transitioning to a more monolithic system?
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Yes, because when you connect the whole world into a kernel, written in C, every little barrier helps.
  - zzzcpan 7y ago
    It's a natural evolution of any system - monoliths are ok only as long as you don't need much of reliability, security, productivity, cooperation, etc.
    - tomxor 7y ago
      > monoliths are ok only as long as you don't need much of reliability, security, productivity, cooperation, etc As a supporter of microkernels I feel this is more a list of side effects. I'd put it this way: monoliths are ok so long as any critical code stays very small and comprehensible in it's entirety by an individual. It's also respectful of things that are not microkernels. Good microkernels designs operate on the same principle, to achieve reliability and security they keep their critical code very small. It's not invulnerable to bugs, but it is well understood that minimising this surface area is the first step in minimising bugs, the secondary effect is also focusing attention due to minimising total lines of critical code. Microkernels are an attempt to take this to an absolute minimum by adding a layer of abstraction that makes otherwise critical code non-critical. As a mere enthusiast I feel like this is the most useful lesson to take away from microkernels in other software, not triple redundancy or fancy reincarnation servers, but the fact that scale breeds complexity breeds bugs. Making sure the critical parts remain lean and inspectable helps a great deal in all software even when the separation is not as strict.
robotbikes 7y ago
HelenOS is an interesting open-source micro-kernel based operating system project primarily fueled by Charles University in Prague. It has a working GUI and USB support. It appears to be driven by various dissertations that add functionality see http://www.helenos.org/ http://www.helenos.org/
jws 7y ago
The Intel processors all ship with Minix in their Management Engine. The Apple iOS devices all have L4 in their security enclaves. Both of these OSes have open source options, though the ones shipped in the processors are closed.

harry8 7y ago

"Remember when men were men and wrote their own device drivers." --Linus Torvalds "Come and join the fun!" --Alan Cox Linux wasn't going to big and professional, like Hurd, but better fun. Perhaps those roles have switched?

m463 7y ago

It was probably more unique when it started 30+ years ago. The idea was a mach microkernel + daemons/message passing to do higher-level things. Note the microkernel was also used in nextstep and now macos.