16 ms·

Apple reveals App Store takedown demands by governments

343 points by mindgam3 7y ago

jjtheblunt 7y ago
Pretty ridiculous the FBI refers to Apple Inc as Apple Computer in 2017, it seems, which would be many years after legal renaming.
- master-litty 7y ago
  I wonder -- Could that render these requests invalid? They're not properly addressed to the entity after all. Not that I'd recommend trying that luck :)
  - GoofballJones 7y ago
    The RMS defense. Like when he’s asked about Linux and he says he doesn’t know what that is unless you specially say “GNU/Linux”
    - craigsmansion 7y ago
      And by "he says he doesn't know" you mean he meticulously, in paragraphs, explains the difference between GNU and linux, and how he basically started the GNU operating system out of a desire for freedom, but that he technically or philosophically has nothing to do with the linux kernel, which is correct, technically and otherwise? I guess he doesn't know a lot then.
      - GoofballJones 7y ago
        He doesn’t do that in interviews. And he’s just being pedantic prick about it.
  - edwintorok 7y ago
    I doubt that you would be able to register a new company called "Apple Computer" that is different from "Apple Inc". When you look up "Apple Computer" you get redirect to "Apple Inc": https://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?company=Apple+Computer&owner=exclude&action=getcompany https://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?company=Apple+Compu... Do companies own their past names indefinitely?
  - TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
    I think this fails the “would a reasonable judge see through it” test.
lifeisstillgood 7y ago
The common thread here seems to be "there are bad governments in the world, and mobile phones should allow people who want to oppose their own bad governments to install apps that will help them in their opposition?" Honestly if our goal is to rid the world of truly bad governments then phone apps are in not in anyway the first or most effective method.
- chii 7y ago
  > rid the world of truly bad governments and who makes the judgement on what a "truly" bad gov't is? I say if you own the hardware, you should be allowed to install any app you wish on it. Apple can claim that this voids your warranty, but they (or any other actor (including the gov't)) cannot be allowed to _prevent_ you from doing it. .
  - nkkollaw 7y ago
    > and who makes the judgement on what a "truly" bad gov't is? Maybe common sense, human freedom index, etc. Are you really arguing that as Westerners we cannot tell a bad government from a good one?
    - gatherhunterer 7y ago
      > as Westerners What distinction are you trying to make here? Many Western governments ( namely, the US and its closest allies) engage in warrantless wiretapping, unlawful search and seizure, imprisonment without due process, warfare without democratic authorization and even taxation and regulation without representation. None of these matters register on the radar of public concern. So can we, as Westerners tell the difference? Apparently not, but we sure are smug about our geographic orientation.
      - nkkollaw 7y ago
        Yup, the US are absolutely awful. That's why everyone wants to move there. Unless you're a college kid or just came out of college and you've just been brainwashed by your Marxist professors, I have no idea how you can have a vision that is so far from reality.
pinkfoot 7y ago
How is this categorically different from other goverments demanding social media credentials? https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/445766-government-surveillance-of-social-media-related-to-immigration-extensive https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/445766-government-su...
Synaesthesia 7y ago
There were apps which tracked US bombings and violations in war zones which were removed. I hope they’re on this list.
- threezero 7y ago
  That wasn’t a government takedown request, so it wouldn’t be on this list.
saagarjha 7y ago
Also interesting, but not mentioned in the article, is that Apple provides data on how often they comply with such requests in addition to how many they get.
- edwintorok 7y ago
  Yes, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20341997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20341997
outime 7y ago
Reports available at https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/report-pdf.html https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/report-pdf.html.
- edwintorok 7y ago
  Shouldn't the report about first half of 2019 be published already?
- mzs 7y ago
  5 NSLs: https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/us.html https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/us.html
  - Sephr 7y ago
    Way more than 5. Every instance of "0-N" instead of just "0" implies at least one more NSL.
    - mzs 7y ago
      Scroll down, there are five which FBI permitted Apple to publish which Apple lightly redacted.
- philshem 7y ago
  I was curious about which apps where taken down in Switzerland (Table 13, page 16), and the report says: > All or vast majority of requests relate to illegal gambling investigations.
  - tumetab1 7y ago
    > gambling investigations I hope they mean court orders than just some investigation. I think the american investigation term is more broad than in other places where investigation just refers to police investigation.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
personjerry 7y ago
> Germany issued the most legal demands for the six-month period ending December 2018 with 12,343 requests for 19,380 devices. Apple said the large number of requests were primarily due to police investigating stolen devices. In scenarios like this, is "... primarily due to ..." good enough? I'm inclined to say no: They need to all be accounted for.
- ChrisRR 7y ago
  I don't think I understand what's going on here. How does removing an app from the app store help them track down a stolen phone?
  - personjerry 7y ago
    My understanding is that there's two things they did: take down apps, and grant access to devices (presumably access to personal data). I'm specifically talking about the latter. Context: > Apple said it received 29,183 demands from governments — down almost 10 percent on the last reporting period — to access 213,737 devices in the second half of last year.
    - edwintorok 7y ago
      Presumably investigation of stolen devices has the owner's consent, should it be really counted as information demanded by the government? Or can the police demand information about my phone that I myself wouldn't have access to?
      - Faark 7y ago
        To make it easy, the owner should only have to go to the police, with them taking care of everything else. I wouldn't want some old lady coordinate the data exchange between Apple and police. But this makes it hard for Apple to verify the owners consent. Thus I'm fine with them only knowing "... primarily due to ...". On a second thought, how much detail should Apple get in the first place. If police suspects me of some wrongdoing, I probably wouldn't want any third party like Apple to get details about the cases as well.
appleshore 7y ago
Not paying your Youtube Premium subscription is enough to take down the entire App Store on your phone. Imagine if Windows wouldn’t let you install software until you updated your Paypal with a valid credit card.
- edwintorok 7y ago
  It used to be possible to register for an Apple Id that you could use to install apps without providing your credit card details. It it not entirely obvious how, but I managed to do it in the past by registering from the device itself and skipping the part where it asked for card info. I no longer own an Apple device, so can't verify whether that is still possible.
  - 4ad 7y ago
    It's possible. I don't care a CC attached to my Apple ID.
  - helloindia 7y ago
    Apple Id signup without credit/debit card is still possible. I don't have any card linked at the moment, and I help friends/family signup.
  - richardwhiuk 7y ago
    You used to be able to sign up merely with a iTunes Gift Card (which can be bought with cash). They may have removed that restriction entirely now.
qwerty456127 7y ago
This is the №1 reason I choose Android - nobody can dictate what apps I can install. I always knew you can only install apps from the store on Apple devices and strongly disliked this (I already use some apps which even Google won't approve, e.g. an open-source YouTube downloader only available on GitHub) but once I've found out you can't get some apps (and books) in particular countries (e.g. a book I wanted was only available in the US store) and a government can ban something from the store I facepalmed.
- zaphirplane 7y ago
  A few stories down today sis Chinese boarder guards installing presumably surveillance apps on android phones but not on Apple The trade offs are far from simplistic
  - qwerty456127 7y ago
    Although I have nothing illegal there, I would rather travel without a phone than handle my real phone to anybody.
  - air7 7y ago
    Anarchy vs. BDFL
  - Crinus 7y ago
    You can always go to China without a phone or with a throwaway phone (if you really must). You cannot install applications on your locked down iOS device regardless if you go to China or not and the people who go to China are a much smaller number than the people who own a smartphone.
    - zaphirplane 7y ago
      The bigger picture is more than a government installing apps on your phone. The issue is someone other than you can install apps with unlimited access on your android phone. Foreign government, your government, your employer, a work colleague, a competitor, your spouse ... the list goes on The security and privacy on an iPhone is greater and comes at a flexibility factor.
ggg2 7y ago
only took them 5 years.
- thomasedwards 7y ago
  The reports go back to 2013: https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/report-pdf.html https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/report-pdf.html
mnajiri 7y ago
تحميل الخط مسلسل Game of thrones font https://mdwab.blogspot.com/2019/05/game-of-thrones-font.html https://mdwab.blogspot.com/2019/05/game-of-thrones-font.html
reaperducer 7y ago
The actual report[1] is very interesting to read. I was surprised that there were zero App Store takedown requests from governments in North America, South America, and Australia. All of the takedown requests came from China, Vietnam, and Europe; including Norway and Switzerland. [1] https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/pdf/requests-2018-H2-en.pdf https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/pdf/requests-2018-H...
- elliekelly 7y ago
  To my knowledge, the US government (or at least the FBI) “negotiates” a takedown of a problematic app with the developer directly.
  - twodayslate 7y ago
    Source?
    - elliekelly 7y ago
      Personal knowledge/professional experience. While it certainly isn’t my area of expertise I have no reason to believe law enforcement handled this particular situation differently than they would any other. I will say that I didn’t think the government had much of a leg to stand on from a legal perspective (so perhaps that could have necessitated their “negotiation” approach) but the stress of the ordeal provided quite a lot of leverage to get the developer to take it down.
- chatmasta 7y ago
  All the EU countries (Norway, Switzerland and Netherlands) include the footnote "All or vast majority of requests relate to illegal gambling investigations."
  - Biganon 7y ago
    Switzerland is not part of the EU.
_bxg1 7y ago
> Apple said it received 29,183 demands from governments — down almost 10 percent on the last reporting period — to access 213,737 devices in the second half of last year. > Apple also received 4,875 requests for account data, such as information stored in iCloud — up by 16 percent on the previous reporting period — affecting 22,503 accounts. I wish they were more specific. What does "access" mean? Location? All local data? Even encrypted data? What data from iCloud? Email addresses, or the full contents of Notes and Drive? Maybe I'm being naive, but I assumed that when something says "Apple can't read X data" it means under all circumstances. But if they have a backdoor, client-side encryption probably doesn't matter.
abvdasker 7y ago
I'm glad this article puts a spotlight on this, but my gosh! Could it be more vague? What are the subjects of the NSLs? Was this article written too soon after the documents' release to give a summary of the juicy bits? To me this basically reads like "a company released some government documents". Is this typical of TechCrunch?
writepub 7y ago
If only Apple reported it's own takedowns - a.k.a. censorship of the competition on the app store. Anyone remember how they retroactively changed their policies to "takedown" Steam?
aatharuv 7y ago
I wonder what the violation of privacy law was for the apps taken down by Kuwait (and Saudi Arabia)...
Albert500 7y ago
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343 points by mindgam3 7y ago

Pretty ridiculous the FBI refers to Apple Inc as Apple Computer in 2017, it seems, which would be many years after legal renaming.

master-litty 7y ago
I wonder -- Could that render these requests invalid? They're not properly addressed to the entity after all. Not that I'd recommend trying that luck :)
- GoofballJones 7y ago
  The RMS defense. Like when he’s asked about Linux and he says he doesn’t know what that is unless you specially say “GNU/Linux”
  - craigsmansion 7y ago
    And by "he says he doesn't know" you mean he meticulously, in paragraphs, explains the difference between GNU and linux, and how he basically started the GNU operating system out of a desire for freedom, but that he technically or philosophically has nothing to do with the linux kernel, which is correct, technically and otherwise? I guess he doesn't know a lot then.
    - GoofballJones 7y ago
      He doesn’t do that in interviews. And he’s just being pedantic prick about it.
- edwintorok 7y ago
  I doubt that you would be able to register a new company called "Apple Computer" that is different from "Apple Inc". When you look up "Apple Computer" you get redirect to "Apple Inc": https://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?company=Apple+Computer&owner=exclude&action=getcompany https://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?company=Apple+Compu... Do companies own their past names indefinitely?
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
  I think this fails the “would a reasonable judge see through it” test.

lifeisstillgood 7y ago

The common thread here seems to be "there are bad governments in the world, and mobile phones should allow people who want to oppose their own bad governments to install apps that will help them in their opposition?" Honestly if our goal is to rid the world of truly bad governments then phone apps are in not in anyway the first or most effective method.

chii 7y ago
> rid the world of truly bad governments and who makes the judgement on what a "truly" bad gov't is? I say if you own the hardware, you should be allowed to install any app you wish on it. Apple can claim that this voids your warranty, but they (or any other actor (including the gov't)) cannot be allowed to _prevent_ you from doing it. .
- nkkollaw 7y ago
  > and who makes the judgement on what a "truly" bad gov't is? Maybe common sense, human freedom index, etc. Are you really arguing that as Westerners we cannot tell a bad government from a good one?
  - gatherhunterer 7y ago
    > as Westerners What distinction are you trying to make here? Many Western governments ( namely, the US and its closest allies) engage in warrantless wiretapping, unlawful search and seizure, imprisonment without due process, warfare without democratic authorization and even taxation and regulation without representation. None of these matters register on the radar of public concern. So can we, as Westerners tell the difference? Apparently not, but we sure are smug about our geographic orientation.
    - nkkollaw 7y ago
      Yup, the US are absolutely awful. That's why everyone wants to move there. Unless you're a college kid or just came out of college and you've just been brainwashed by your Marxist professors, I have no idea how you can have a vision that is so far from reality.

pinkfoot 7y ago

How is this categorically different from other goverments demanding social media credentials? https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/445766-government-surveillance-of-social-media-related-to-immigration-extensive https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/445766-government-su...

Synaesthesia 7y ago

There were apps which tracked US bombings and violations in war zones which were removed. I hope they’re on this list.

threezero 7y ago
That wasn’t a government takedown request, so it wouldn’t be on this list.

saagarjha 7y ago

Also interesting, but not mentioned in the article, is that Apple provides data on how often they comply with such requests in addition to how many they get.

edwintorok 7y ago
Yes, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20341997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20341997

outime 7y ago

Reports available at https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/report-pdf.html https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/report-pdf.html.

edwintorok 7y ago
Shouldn't the report about first half of 2019 be published already?
mzs 7y ago
5 NSLs: https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/us.html https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/us.html
- Sephr 7y ago
  Way more than 5. Every instance of "0-N" instead of just "0" implies at least one more NSL.
  - mzs 7y ago
    Scroll down, there are five which FBI permitted Apple to publish which Apple lightly redacted.
philshem 7y ago
I was curious about which apps where taken down in Switzerland (Table 13, page 16), and the report says: > All or vast majority of requests relate to illegal gambling investigations.
- tumetab1 7y ago
  > gambling investigations I hope they mean court orders than just some investigation. I think the american investigation term is more broad than in other places where investigation just refers to police investigation.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

personjerry 7y ago

> Germany issued the most legal demands for the six-month period ending December 2018 with 12,343 requests for 19,380 devices. Apple said the large number of requests were primarily due to police investigating stolen devices. In scenarios like this, is "... primarily due to ..." good enough? I'm inclined to say no: They need to all be accounted for.

ChrisRR 7y ago
I don't think I understand what's going on here. How does removing an app from the app store help them track down a stolen phone?
- personjerry 7y ago
  My understanding is that there's two things they did: take down apps, and grant access to devices (presumably access to personal data). I'm specifically talking about the latter. Context: > Apple said it received 29,183 demands from governments — down almost 10 percent on the last reporting period — to access 213,737 devices in the second half of last year.
  - edwintorok 7y ago
    Presumably investigation of stolen devices has the owner's consent, should it be really counted as information demanded by the government? Or can the police demand information about my phone that I myself wouldn't have access to?
    - Faark 7y ago
      To make it easy, the owner should only have to go to the police, with them taking care of everything else. I wouldn't want some old lady coordinate the data exchange between Apple and police. But this makes it hard for Apple to verify the owners consent. Thus I'm fine with them only knowing "... primarily due to ...". On a second thought, how much detail should Apple get in the first place. If police suspects me of some wrongdoing, I probably wouldn't want any third party like Apple to get details about the cases as well.

appleshore 7y ago

Not paying your Youtube Premium subscription is enough to take down the entire App Store on your phone. Imagine if Windows wouldn’t let you install software until you updated your Paypal with a valid credit card.

edwintorok 7y ago
It used to be possible to register for an Apple Id that you could use to install apps without providing your credit card details. It it not entirely obvious how, but I managed to do it in the past by registering from the device itself and skipping the part where it asked for card info. I no longer own an Apple device, so can't verify whether that is still possible.
- 4ad 7y ago
  It's possible. I don't care a CC attached to my Apple ID.
- helloindia 7y ago
  Apple Id signup without credit/debit card is still possible. I don't have any card linked at the moment, and I help friends/family signup.
- richardwhiuk 7y ago
  You used to be able to sign up merely with a iTunes Gift Card (which can be bought with cash). They may have removed that restriction entirely now.

qwerty456127 7y ago

This is the №1 reason I choose Android - nobody can dictate what apps I can install. I always knew you can only install apps from the store on Apple devices and strongly disliked this (I already use some apps which even Google won't approve, e.g. an open-source YouTube downloader only available on GitHub) but once I've found out you can't get some apps (and books) in particular countries (e.g. a book I wanted was only available in the US store) and a government can ban something from the store I facepalmed.

zaphirplane 7y ago
A few stories down today sis Chinese boarder guards installing presumably surveillance apps on android phones but not on Apple The trade offs are far from simplistic
- qwerty456127 7y ago
  Although I have nothing illegal there, I would rather travel without a phone than handle my real phone to anybody.
- air7 7y ago
  Anarchy vs. BDFL
- Crinus 7y ago
  You can always go to China without a phone or with a throwaway phone (if you really must). You cannot install applications on your locked down iOS device regardless if you go to China or not and the people who go to China are a much smaller number than the people who own a smartphone.
  - zaphirplane 7y ago
    The bigger picture is more than a government installing apps on your phone. The issue is someone other than you can install apps with unlimited access on your android phone. Foreign government, your government, your employer, a work colleague, a competitor, your spouse ... the list goes on The security and privacy on an iPhone is greater and comes at a flexibility factor.

ggg2 7y ago

only took them 5 years.

thomasedwards 7y ago
The reports go back to 2013: https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/report-pdf.html https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/report-pdf.html

mnajiri 7y ago

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reaperducer 7y ago

The actual report[1] is very interesting to read. I was surprised that there were zero App Store takedown requests from governments in North America, South America, and Australia. All of the takedown requests came from China, Vietnam, and Europe; including Norway and Switzerland. [1] https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/pdf/requests-2018-H2-en.pdf https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/pdf/requests-2018-H...

elliekelly 7y ago
To my knowledge, the US government (or at least the FBI) “negotiates” a takedown of a problematic app with the developer directly.
- twodayslate 7y ago
  Source?
  - elliekelly 7y ago
    Personal knowledge/professional experience. While it certainly isn’t my area of expertise I have no reason to believe law enforcement handled this particular situation differently than they would any other. I will say that I didn’t think the government had much of a leg to stand on from a legal perspective (so perhaps that could have necessitated their “negotiation” approach) but the stress of the ordeal provided quite a lot of leverage to get the developer to take it down.
chatmasta 7y ago
All the EU countries (Norway, Switzerland and Netherlands) include the footnote "All or vast majority of requests relate to illegal gambling investigations."
- Biganon 7y ago
  Switzerland is not part of the EU.

_bxg1 7y ago

> Apple said it received 29,183 demands from governments — down almost 10 percent on the last reporting period — to access 213,737 devices in the second half of last year. > Apple also received 4,875 requests for account data, such as information stored in iCloud — up by 16 percent on the previous reporting period — affecting 22,503 accounts. I wish they were more specific. What does "access" mean? Location? All local data? Even encrypted data? What data from iCloud? Email addresses, or the full contents of Notes and Drive? Maybe I'm being naive, but I assumed that when something says "Apple can't read X data" it means under all circumstances. But if they have a backdoor, client-side encryption probably doesn't matter.

abvdasker 7y ago

I'm glad this article puts a spotlight on this, but my gosh! Could it be more vague? What are the subjects of the NSLs? Was this article written too soon after the documents' release to give a summary of the juicy bits? To me this basically reads like "a company released some government documents". Is this typical of TechCrunch?

writepub 7y ago

If only Apple reported it's own takedowns - a.k.a. censorship of the competition on the app store. Anyone remember how they retroactively changed their policies to "takedown" Steam?

aatharuv 7y ago

I wonder what the violation of privacy law was for the apps taken down by Kuwait (and Saudi Arabia)...

Albert500 7y ago

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Albert500 7y ago

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