24 ms·

Microsoft's Linux Kernel

801 points by polyomino 7y ago

jppope 7y ago
Is this why they say to never push to production on Friday?
- Someone1234 7y ago
  Why? This seems to have been available for at least four days and there's no obvious problem/mistaken with it.
ncmncm 7y ago
Embrace... Extend...
- dralley 7y ago
  Overused meme is overused. Please explain to me how EEE can be applied to GPLv2 code.
  - btgeekboy 7y ago
    The license is irrelevant. GPL code is useless if nobody uses it.
  - viraptor 7y ago
    It can be pretty easily applied to GPLv2 in commercial agreement. "You get the source under GPL and all the rights, but if you publish anything, you're dead to us and you need our product". This is what grsecurity does with Linux kernel, but the extinguish part is not in their interest.
    - dralley 7y ago
      This post is literally a link to the source code published on Github, and the commits aren't obfuscated either.
      - viraptor 7y ago
        My explanation was unrelated to this specific code. You asked for how it can be done with this license.
  - ncmncm 7y ago
    It is, and was, not just a meme. It was -- and may still be, where it can be made to work -- official corporate policy and strategy, at highest levels. Complaining about it didn't make it go away. Reduction of monopoly power limited opportunities to employ it. They have never renounced it, or admitted that it was wrong to have done it.
- bitlax 7y ago
  What has Microsoft extinguished lately?
  - giancarlostoro 7y ago
    Indeed... It is Google now that does the extinguishing...
    - nordsieck 7y ago
      > It is Google now that does the extinguishing... Although, to be fair, they are really only extinguishing their own products.
      - furyofantares 7y ago
        Which were often acquired, or clones of something that died when it had to compete with Google
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
      You know, it's funny. The browser world becomes a Chrome mono-culture and all the SV devs throw a fit, rightly, about the lack of competition. Then they turn around and cheer about the idea of Windows becoming just another chromium... er, sorry, Linux distribution.
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        The SV devs helped Chrome reach where it is.
      - meruru 7y ago
        Those are not comparable things at all. For starters, Linux is under the GPL. It also wouldn't give Microsoft the level of control over the web that the Chrome monoculture gives to Google.
  - Thaxll 7y ago
    Edge. Couple of years ago I was really pissed how they fucked up the merge between Hotmail and Skype, I lost so many "friends" because they killed MSN / hotmail.
- giancarlostoro 7y ago
  This is a topic about Microsoft not Google: Mail, Amp, Android (Linux), Google Talk / Hangouts (XMPP), Chrome (websites by Google and external parties that only work on Chrome), and I am probably missing other cases where standard tech has been extended into ways that only Google can support.
  - danpat 7y ago
    The term "embrace, extend, and extinguish" was coined by Microsoft, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
    - davesmith1983 7y ago
      He knows that. However it is Google that seems to be practicing it now.
    - meddlepal 7y ago
      Yes everyone knows where it came from, but the FOSS communities continued screeching and pot banging with that phrase and Microsoft is both tired, played out, and near pointless considering what Google is actively doing to the software world right now.
      - michaelmrose 7y ago
        Dismissing legitimate concerns as screeching is pretty lame. Try making your your arguments without emotional manipulation. Microsoft was a bad actor and leopards rarely change their spots. Edit:Forgot to mention the classic whataboutism.
        bshacklett 7y ago
        Thankfully, at least in this case, the same is not true for companies. When the highest level of leadership changes, its quite likely that the company, itself, will change as well. With competent leadership, Microsoft has found a new business model which is working well for them without trying to control the direction of the entire industry. We've got other big players, now, that are far more concerning to me.
- cobalt 7y ago
  so microsoft's open source linux kernel is going to cause everyone to stop using linux...?
  - lytedev 7y ago
    Maybe on bare metal, but I imagine it will definitely add to the Linux userbase.
  - linguae 7y ago
    No, not everyone is going to abandon Linux; I'm going to define Linux in this context as the traditional Linux desktop where people run some sort of X11 or Wayland window manager or desktop environment on top of a Linux kernel running on bare hardware. However, it would be interesting to see what impact the popularity of WSL will have on Linux desktop environments such as KDE, GNOME and its derivatives MATE and Cinnamon, and others such as XFCE. For example, macOS has long been popular with those wanting a polished *nix environment with support for commercial software packages and certain types of drivers, to the point that some high-profile developers such as Miguel de Icaza adopted the Mac. Some may argue that the Linux desktop may have evolved differently had macOS not been an option. Even so, the existence of macOS has not led to the extinction of the Linux desktop. Now, what makes WSL different from macOS is every major PC manufacturer ships their PCs with Windows 10 by default, and WSL can be installed easily on any PC running Windows 10. You can run Linux alongside Microsoft Office and Adobe Creative Suite without having to use WINE. The barrier of entry for using WSL is much lower for a lot of people than the barrier of entry for purchasing a Mac. This leads to some interesting questions. If a significant segment of Linux users abandon FOSS desktops such as KDE and GNOME for the Windows ecosystem, what will this mean for projects such as Firefox and LibreOffice? What will it mean for KDE, GNOME, and other FOSS desktop environments and window managers? Now, there will be a contingent of Linux users who won't migrate to WSL for a few reasons. There are some Linux users who won't use Windows, whether it's due to certain features such as telemetry and ads or whether it's due to some other aspect of Windows they don't like. There are some Linux users who need to run Linux directly on their hardware and thus WSL wouldn't fit their needs. There are also Linux users who care about using a stack of software that is fully free and open source and thus wouldn't switch to SWL. But will there be enough remaining users in order to justify further development of the FOSS Linux desktop in the eyes of major projects like LibreOffice and Firefox? We will see.
- juststeve 7y ago
  socialize the development, privatize the profits?
jdoliner 7y ago
My brain threw an exception when I read this title. Awesome that this is a reality though. Now that we have a Linux kernels running and accessible on both Windows and Chromebooks I feel like we can finally say: 2019 actually is the year of Linux on the desktop. It's not a meme anymore, it's finally just a true statement. Edit: To those questioning if this really counts as Linux on the Desktop. Yes, I understand what you're saying, I too am a bit of a blowhard about Linux and prefer to use the real deal, not some kernel on a kernel bs. But I think this is still a huge deal in terms of the accessibility of Linux, think of how many young programmers will be able to dip their toes in the Linux pool on their gaming rigs without having to go through an Ubuntu install process (I write, thinking in the back of my mind that I had to go through that, and so maybe they should too.) Yes there is something of an ideological compromise here, because the Linux they're running is sitting on a binary blob and not truly free... but Linux still exists in it's gloriously free form for them to use when they decide that's important to them, I see no harm in them reaping some of the other benefits of Linux without the freedom, it will hopefully become an on ramp to more Linux adopters and programmers.
- wrs 7y ago
  Well, technically yes, but…talk about moving the goalposts! Almost like swapping the goalposts.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    Always remember to lift the goalposts with your knees, not your back.
  - mrbungie 7y ago
    Yep, except in this case is just one goalpost and everyone wins. Now we can enjoy using software as MS Office and userland from Linux distros in the same machine seamlessly.
    - phkahler 7y ago
      This is the "embrace" phase. It also kind of encompasses "extend" by adding hardware support via Windows drivers. This alone is not enough to get to "extinguish" though, so allow me to make a prediction. The next step is fully locked down hardware that requires a signed OS. Linux will not run on it, but MS will pretend to support you by allowing linux apps to run on their kernel. Then, once no hardware will allow you to run linux natively they will depreciate it and get people to migrate to better supported APIs of their own. People are just walking right into this as if none of Microsofts history ever happened. The only OK scenario is that MS becomes a larger version of Redhat and migrates users the other direction. Is that happening? No. It's all about bringing your toys to their house.
mullingitover 7y ago
I wish Microsoft would release their own linux-based OS with a compatibility layer to let me run Windows apps. I'm not overly impressed with the direction Apple is going but I really enjoy a *nix-native environment too much to go back to vanilla Windows. It would change the math a lot for me if it was full-blown linux under the hood.
- groceryheist 7y ago
  Totally agree. This is maybe the one thing that could potentially bring me back into the Microsoft ecosystem.
- giancarlostoro 7y ago
  Windows Subsystem for Linux is really close to that though. If you have not tried it yet you can download a Windows VM for developers from Microsoft that includes WSL and other dev goodies. Its mostly for evaluation but good enough to get started with. Edit: Here is the link to the Microsoft provided VMs: https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/downloads/virtual-machines https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/downloads/virt...
  - mullingitover 7y ago
    This is still with Linux running in a VM though, right? I'd like a lightweight VM for legacy Windows and Linux running on metal. Given Microsoft's zeal for legacy support I'd say there's a snowball's chance in hell for this, but a man can dream.
    - SteveNuts 7y ago
      WSL version 2 uses the Hyper-V Virtualization API but is not a VM. The first version of WSL is just another process in task manager, with all the syscalls and filesystems emulated.
      - chrismorgan 7y ago
        Well, each WSL1 process is a Windows process. If you’re running vim in bash, for example, you’ll see “vim” and “bash” as separate processes in Task Manager. WSL is all about ELF binaries natively, just as Win32 runs PE executables natively.
kgc 7y ago
If it ships with Windows, doesn't that mean Windows is GPL now?
- mey 7y ago
  No more than running Linux in a VM makes the hypervisor GPL. They are distributing it via their store.
AdmiralAsshat 7y ago
All the Linux with none of the freedom. Yaaaay?
- falcrist 7y ago
  With Microsoft, this part is almost inevitable. Same with Google/Microsoft and privacy...
  - alexanderdmitri 7y ago
    10 years ago I would have thought it unthinkable a Windows machine would be sending data behind the scenes about me to a remote server. This privacy policy[1] is insane: > Together, diagnostics and feedback are how you and your Windows 10 device tell Microsoft what's really going on. As you use Windows, we collect diagnostic information, and to make sure we're listening to you, our customer, we've also built ways for you to send us feedback anytime, and at specific times, like when Windows 10 asks you a question about how something is working for you. > There are two levels of diagnostic data: Basic and Full. [...] This data is transmitted to Microsoft and stored with one or more unique identifiers that can help us recognize an individual user on an individual device and understand the device's service issues and use patterns. > Specific data items collected in Windows diagnostics are subject to change to give Microsoft flexibility to collect the data needed for the purposes described. For example, to ensure Microsoft can troubleshoot the latest performance issue impacting users’ computing experience or update a Windows 10 device that is new to the market, Microsoft may need to collect data items that were not collected previously. For detailed info about the data that Microsoft collects at the Basic level, see Basic level Windows diagnostic events and fields. For more info about the data that Microsoft collects at the Full level, see Diagnostic data for full level. > We use the Basic level of diagnostic data to improve Windows. We use the Full level of diagnostic data to improve Windows and related products and services. > Some of the data described above may not be collected from your device even if your Diagnostic data setting is set to Full. Microsoft minimizes the volume of data we collect from all devices by collecting some of the data at the Full level from only a small percentage of devices (sample). By running the Diagnostic Data Viewer tool (available on newer versions of Windows), you can see an icon which indicates whether your device is part of a sample and also which specific data is collected from your device. Instructions for how to download the Diagnostic Data Viewer tool can be found at Start > Settings > Privacy > Diagnostics & feedback. > You can view diagnostic data for your device in real time by using the Diagnostic Data Viewer. Note that you will only be able to view data that is available while the Diagnostic Data Viewer is running. The Diagnostic Data Viewer does not allow you to view your diagnostic data history. If you click the feedback panel on the right edge, you get sent to another Microsoft privacy policy[2]: > We also use the data to operate our business, which includes analyzing our performance, meeting our legal obligations, developing our workforce, and doing research. In carrying out these purposes, we combine data we collect from different contexts (for example, from your use of two Microsoft products) or obtain from third parties to give you a more seamless, consistent, and personalized experience, to make informed business decisions, and for other legitimate purposes. > We share your personal data with your consent or to complete any transaction or provide any product you have requested or authorized. We also share data with Microsoft-controlled affiliates and subsidiaries; with vendors working on our behalf; when required by law or to respond to legal process; to protect our customers; to protect lives; to maintain the security of our products; and to protect the rights and property of Microsoft and its customers. > You can also make choices about the collection and use of your data by Microsoft. You can control your personal data that Microsoft has obtained, and exercise your data protection rights, by contacting Microsoft or using various tools we provide. In some cases, your ability to access or control your personal data will be limited, as required or permitted by applicable law. 1. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4468236/diagnostics-feedback-and-privacy-in-windows-10-microsoft-privacy https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4468236/diagnostics... 2. https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/privacystatement https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/privacystatement [edited to give excerpts from the second privacy I encountered trying to provide feedback to the first one!]
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ChuckMcM 7y ago
Well that is pretty nice. WSL gets that much more exactly like Linux. What I really appreciate about WSL is that you get the accessibility of a bunch of OSS projects and a machine which has legit drivers for all of its component bits. What this means to me is that searching for a "linux laptop" won't be a chore, if it runs the latest Windows it will run Linux. And I can do development on the Linux side while communicating with senior management in power point on the Windows side :-). If they come up with a better/credible USB allocation scheme it will be icing on the cake. I also think they should buy one of the X server vendors and bundle it (comments about X.org from Redhat not withstanding) I use Xwin32 on my laptop with WSL and its pretty seamless in terms of things that want to pop up a GUI.
- scardine 7y ago
  There are a few annoyances with WSL2. For me the most important are: 1. You can't connect to a port listening on WSL localhost like in WSL1, you have to figure out the WSL IP address and use that. 2. From WSL you can't connect to a Windows TCP port on localhost, you must figure out the Windows IP (cat /etc/resolv.conf) and use that. 3. The WSL remote interpreter on PyCharm is not working anymore. The suggested workaround is "use SSH remote interpreter" but given #1 you can't connect to localhost (and the WSL IP changes every time you restart it) In order to use the SSH remote interpreter in my favorite IDE I'm using this script (on Windows): import subprocess import re output = subprocess.check_output('wsl.exe ifconfig') match = re.search(r"\sinet\s+(\d{1,3}\.\d{1,3}\.\d{1,3}\.\d{1,3})\s", output.decode('utf-8')) if match: ip = match.group(1) with open(r"C:\Windows\System32\drivers\etc\hosts") as i: content = i.read() new_content = re.sub(r"(172.\d+\.\d+\.\d+)\s+wsl", f"{ip} wsl", content, re.M) if new_content != content: try: with open(r"C:\Windows\System32\drivers\etc\hosts", "w") as o: o.write(new_content) except PermissionError: print(new_content) First I use the Windows Scheduler to start SSH (wsl service start ssh) on logon. Then this script is executed on logon with elevated privileges to update the hosts file. Instead of "localhost", I use "wsl" and it works well enough for me while I wait for the fixes. Despite the above, the combo Windows 10 + WSL2 is the best "Linux Desktop" for me.
antirez 7y ago
Microsoft: put a good POSIX layer into Windows. The times are mature now, and this allows your platform to benefit from a lot of open source system software easily, without portings and compatibility layers. At the same time, now that developers start to be annoyed big time by Apple nonsensical Mac handling, this gives a lot of devs, not developing primarily for the Win arch, the ability to evaluate Windows as a development machine.
- bshacklett 7y ago
  The pure geek in me really wishes they'd bring back SFU. Windows has a really impressive mechanism for implementing subsystems (I can't remember for sure, but I believe win32 is actually implemented on top of this layer). I'm sure there's far more complexity involved than I could imagine, but I've always loved the idea of having a bunch of different subsystems running without the need for virtualization.
  - signal11 7y ago
    V1 of WSL (which isn’t going to go away IIRC) was essentially an iteration/improvement of the subsystem model, but with new things like picoprocesses. This article[1] has a good overview of the design goals, which mainly was to let unmodified binaries run. [1] https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/wsl/2016/04/22/windows-subsystem-for-linux-overview/ https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/wsl/2016/04/22/windows-subs...
- rcarmo 7y ago
  Spot on on quite a few counts. It is a way to regain developer mindshare, drive migration to Windows 10 (a major business target since many companies are still running Windows 7, which prevents adoption of modern enterprise features — even bits of Office services) and onboard more developers to Azure, since a substantial portion of online companies run Linux. As a long-time Mac user working at Microsoft (with Azure), this is the perfect storm. I can do everything I need on WSL 1 (except some networking stuff, obviously) and WSL 2 is going to let me get rid of Docker Desktop’s virtualization for Linux containers.
- davesmith1983 7y ago
m0zg 7y ago
Now get GUI apps and CUDA working, and I'm in.
frequentnapper 7y ago
As an aside, which laptop do people here prefer for windows dev? I am split between Surface laptop and Lenovo X1 Carbon.
- tonymet 7y ago
  dell xps 15 with 4k display
- rcarmo 7y ago
  I’ve used both, and prefer the Surface Laptop to the X1 because the X1 screen and keyboard were garbage (blurry pixels and squishy keys). I work at Microsoft and was issued a Lenovo, then got a Surface Pro 4 and finally a Laptop. Everyone in my team who got the Book instead is a little sad because it’s a huge lumbering beast compared to the Laptop and tends to be top-heavy compared to the X1s and Yogas we had. Those of us with Pros (tablets) and Laptops love the portability, even if you only get one USB port. Also, all the Surface trackpads are MacBook-grade (although the software handling might need some tweaking for you to get exactly the same feeling - but I’m happy with mine now).
- tbrock 7y ago
  X1 Carbon!
- Const-me 7y ago
  Thick ones, able to house active cooling, and therefore fast CPUs. Where you can upgrade RAM and SSD with a screwdriver, without a heat gun. A brand doesn’t matter.
  - frequentnapper 7y ago
    I travel quite a bit, so lightness is a requirement.
    - Const-me 7y ago
      I have an upgradeable 13.3" laptop, with active cooling, which weights 1.6kg. Light enough for all practical applications.
gfiorav 7y ago
I already use WSL1 as my main setup for web dev at work. If Windows comes to a point where doing anything doesn't immediately make the fan spin to maximum RPM, I'll be very happy to call Windows my digital home.
idlewords 7y ago
It's hard to win harder than this. People finding a way to see this as a betrayal or trick—it's what total victory looks like.
mtzet 7y ago
This is really Microsoft catching up to the Mac in terms of integration with the open-source ecosystem which importantly drives the web. In the mid 2000's the Mac really took off due to being a good-enough Linux replacement on the command line, while taking care of all the hardware integration and providing a sleek desktop experience. This really helped the Mac take off among hackers. This system wasn't as open-source as Linux, but it was good enough: Most of us don't want to mess about with the desktop stack. If the stack we care about is open-source and runs across many systems, then we still have the freedom. I find it fairly easy to work on both Mac OS X, Linux and WSL2 -- but not pre-WSL Windows. The inclusion of a Linux kernel really seems to cause a lot of confusion. No, Microsoft is not about to remove the NT kernel. No, they're not about to supplant Linux. WSL1 did what the guys from Illumos and FreeBSD have also done: since the Linux syscall interface is quite stable, the NT kernel can simply implement these syscalls and handle them appropriately. The was that the NT kernel was still sufficiently different that the filesystem performance was quite poor and complex applications like Docker required more kernel features than was provided by just the syscall API. Including a Linux kernel is really the nuclear option: rather than trying to fit Linux applications in Windows, they're running in their own world and providing integrations into this world. This means you can now run Docker on WSL2 for instance, but it's also complicated: Kernels really like to think that they own the world, for instance they keep memory around to use for later. WSL2 dynamically grows the amount of RAM allocated to the VM, which is quite clever, but I don't know how/if they're going to handle freeing memory again -- here the NT kernel really needs to communicate with the Linux kernel. Anyways, the upshot is that no, Microsoft is not going to take over the world, but perhaps it will be easier to use a Windows laptop which supports all the stupid Enterprise software I need but still have a Linux shell for actual work.
- johanneswu 7y ago
  There is a technique called "memory ballooning" http://www.vmwarearena.com/vmware-memory-management-part-3-memory-ballooning/ http://www.vmwarearena.com/vmware-memory-management-part-3-m..., which is probably also used by HyperV to free memory again.
- StreamBright 7y ago
  > a good-enough Linux replacement on the command line nit picking but it was more of a good enough bsd/unix than linux.
rsrx 7y ago
This is truly amazing. I have always developed on Windows and recently got a new contract where whole development environment is based on OSX/Linux. It has saved me hours and hours of work (and $$$) since I can run their environment in subsystem, while keeping Windows interface. Thank you, Nadella.
mehrdadn 7y ago
Is WSL2 more than just a VM? How is it different?
- harrygeez 7y ago
  for starters, it's not your typical VirtualBox VM running off your host OS. The Linux kernel in WSL2 runs on top of Hyper-V alongside Windows, which is also in a VM. Microsoft is leveraging the same technology they use to run Windows on Xbox alongside the game OS, so it's really like an OS with 2 kernels
  - mehrdadn 7y ago
    I get that it's on a hypervisor but from a user standpoint how is that beneficial or any different from just running a normal VM in a hypervisor, is my question? Like I could've already run Hyper-V and installed Linux, so (how) is WSL2 different/better?
    - oaiey 7y ago
      I cannot answer your question. I can just tell you that they brought back Dave Cutler from retirement for this concept found in XBox and now Windows 10. This is definitely not that everyone's VM. And if you do not know Dave Cutler... Well he is a VMS veteran (a system which was also ground up virtualized) who designed the Windows NT Kernel. He is essentially a legend in the field of operating systems and engineering. There is a nice documentation around him.
  - anticensor 7y ago
    More like 2 kernels and 5+ userlands (Linux native, GNU/Windows, .NET, Win32, OS/2). What is the "game OS"?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
andrekandre 7y ago
would this have been at all possible if linux had been GPLv3?
- davesmith1983 7y ago
  No.
envolt 7y ago
The only reason I'm sticking to my Macbook is the Linux based kernal, which makes it easier for me to use the command line, install NodeJS, build an application, install Redis Server on my local. Though everything can be done in Windows, it's not easy to do so. I specifically remember trying to install Redis on Windows and had to give up after the end of the day. Ended up creating a server and installing Redis on that on AWS. Also, people are complaining that Microsoft once said "Linux is Cancer" at some point. A lot has changed since then. Ubuntu was released after that which IMO helped to adopt Linux by an end user.
- chx 7y ago
  What did I just read. MacBook userspace is derived from NetBSD. The kernel is so far removed from BSD UNIX it's not worth even mentioning. This link you commented on points to the kernel used in WSL2 which gives you a full Linux under Windows. Unlike Mac where you probably will use homebrew to install Unix packages, this is a full, unadultered Linux machine. Even WSL1 allowed you to install anything from Ubuntu although some (very, very few!) didn't run, most importantly (for us) some debuggers.
- andreapaiola 7y ago
  LOL: MacOS is not Linux
- fbn79 7y ago
  MacOS don't have a Linux based Kernel. It's based on Darwin that comes from BSD.
_ph_ 7y ago
Now we only need a Windows-native Wayland server, which integrates seamlessly into the Windows desktop and of course just uses the Windows graphics stack.
- anticensor 7y ago
  Windows-native and .NET-based Wayland server.
asanagi_traps 7y ago
Are they going to push this to upstream ever? How are they, or we, are going to catch up when thousands of lines of code are added every day.
- oaiey 7y ago
  When I remember right, Microsoft is already a big contributor to the Linux Kernel. Do not forget, Azure has tons of Linux machines hosted. I think they know exactly how to ha ndle this. And I think currently they are just patching their own Linux together like any distro does
nigrioid 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
utopcell 7y ago
The apt name would be Microsoft/Linux. But that would give Stallman an aneurysm.
- yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
  WSL 1 was GNU/NT, I would think.
  - utopcell 7y ago
    ..and that would give him the final blow.
  - anticensor 7y ago
    GNU/LinuxABI@kWindows actually.
oil25 7y ago
We've come a long way from Bill Gates' original characterization of open source (long before it was called that) as thievery - https://worldhistoryproject.org/1976/2/bill-gates-writes-open-letter-to-hobbyists https://worldhistoryproject.org/1976/2/bill-gates-writes-ope... I'm still sure as ever Microsoft is no friend of free (as in Freedom, not price) software and can't help but shake my head at this latest publicity stunt. I wouldn't trust their software any further than I throw it.
- hollerith 7y ago
  "Open source" has a precise definition [1], and your comment does not use the term correctly. [1] https://opensource.org/osd https://opensource.org/osd In particular, if the software or "work" was never made freely available by its lawful owner, it is not open source.
  - oil25 7y ago
    Bill wrote his letter 21 years before this definition materialized and it actually served to inspire the free software/open source concept altogether. > There is a viable alternative to the problems raised by Bill Gates in his irate letter to computer hobbyists concerning "ripping off" software. When software is free, or so inexpensive that it's easier to pay for it than to duplicate it, then it won't be "stolen". —Jim Warren, July 1976
- halter73 7y ago
  That open letter had nothing to do open source (i.e libre) software as we understand the term today. It was simply asking hobbyists to pay for Altair BASIC which was not distributed under an open source license. I don't see how that's anything but reasonable unless you take the position that all software ought to be open source regardless the creators wishes.
- oaiey 7y ago
  Microsoft of today is only interested in one thing: earning money. Like any other corporation. if contributing to free software earns money (Azure, Developer mindshare, Store) they will do it. And the Linux foundation knows how to defend itself IP wise. It is about earning money. RedHat does it. Microsoft does it.
crazy_monkey 7y ago
This is how the corruption spreads...
hereme888 7y ago
I see it as another publicity stunt by the Big 5 tech companies to save their reputation amidst years of anti-privacy violations. From buying Github, to "supporting" open-source software. Yeah right, more like marketing to save your reputation. I'll keep moving further and further away from Big Tech. Will Microsoft send themselves more "aggregated" user data on how their new Linux kernel is being used? Will this have to be another rule for my firewall to block?
- mav3rick 7y ago
  No one in the mainstream public knows or cares about the Linux kernel or open source. People care about products. Not implementation details.
- kpU8efre7r 7y ago
  How do you guys have time to get any work done with all this zealotry?
  - posix_me_less 7y ago
    It is possible. First, sometimes it is more benefitial to just pass on the shiny corp gadget. They are new, they look cool, everybody talks about them, but you often find that you can save attention span and protect privacy by ignoring it (e.g. facebook). Second, this stance make you look for alternatives. First you give up a lot, you have to work harder to work around. But if you do, you will have to go deeper into technology and think about how those things work. So it gives back so much in terms of brain development.
bin0 7y ago
Question for those with more technological knowledge than I have: will this allow AF_PACKET support on windows so I can run monitor mode stuff? CUDA acceleration? If I could avoid spending time getting nvidia drivers working on my laptop, that would be a massive help. And yeah, I know, I'm supposed to buy AMD stuff so I can use open source etc. But all the best hardware is nvidia, and so top hardware ships with nvidia. I've got to use this thing for my work as well, so it's not really an option, and I don't have the technical chops to quickly debug my drivers or wm or whatever.
- 3PS 7y ago
  These are two of their highest requested features at the moment [1] [2], and if I recall correctly they specifically remarked on passing through hardware as one of their main priorities going forward with WSL2. Unfortunately it requires some vendor support so it's not an easy task to solve right away, but I would stay optimistic. [1] https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/266908-command-prompt-console-windows-subsystem-for-l/suggestions/17817685-support-af-packet-address-family-tcpdump-wireshar https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/266908-command-prompt-con... [2] https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/266908-command-prompt-console-windows-subsystem-for-l/suggestions/16108045-opencl-cuda-gpu-support https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/266908-command-prompt-con...
  - bin0 7y ago
    I am indeed very optimistic. As much as I love linux, not having to get optimus GPUs set up on it would be a massive relief. I've voted on both before; here's to hoping!
meruru 7y ago
Who cares about the year of the Linux desktop when the world is still turning into 1984? There was a reason we wanted Linux to dominate and it wasn't so it would end like this.
- mycall 7y ago
  Linux desktop means little when people log into Google, Facebook et al.
  - meruru 7y ago
    Exactly. Linux won on technical merits, but we failed to educate people about the really important part about freedom.
    - davesmith1983 7y ago
      When is Linux technically better? It is a good enough all rounder. There is this principle of "Worse is better" when it comes to many, many products. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worse_is_better https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worse_is_better Also the first versions of the kernel was released at the right time. It is decent enough, free, open source and was around at the right time. The internet was just becoming a thing, the PC ecosystem had "won" and it was pretty open in that anyone could manufacture a PC. There was an AT&T lawsuit wasn't happening in the 90s IIRC against the BSD Code. If Linus had created his kernel a little later or a litter earlier than it may have never received the interest it did.
    - AdeptusAquinas 7y ago
      Because we were too busy building Google, Facebook et al.
      - edejong 7y ago
        Money won over principles after all.
      - meruru 7y ago
sprashanth 7y ago
Just noticed the contributors as showing "∞ contributors" :D
- meruru 7y ago
  On Firefox for Android I have ∞ tabs open :)
- judge2020 7y ago
  Same for the official linux source https://github.com/torvalds/linux https://github.com/torvalds/linux
Breo 7y ago
Hello, folks, With this kernel we could use unix commands in somekind of terminal? Maybe node executations will run faster?
jasoneckert 7y ago
I'm sure that I'll have a nightmare tonight where I'm stuck in a Scooby Doo episode, and they unmask the ntoskrnl.exe binary to reveal this Linux kernel underneath....
emmelaich 7y ago
What's the bet that MacOS will switch to the Linux kernel within the next five years?
- Sangeppato 7y ago
  It's as likely as Google switching to the NT kernel for Andorid
  - anticensor 7y ago
    Windows kernel is actually more suitable for Android than Linux kernel. In such an environment, JVM could have been the entire userland.
- kristianp 7y ago
  Not gonna happen. They already have a unix based OS (Darwin) that supports their Arm and x86 devices.
- nine_k 7y ago
  Zero. They need full control.
- _ph_ 7y ago
  What would be the motivation for Apple to do such a thing? MacOS is already a Unix, with a BSD-based userland. Also, they are doing active kernel development - as in architecture development - to enhance the system security, so that even root cannot compromise the system. One part of this is moving kernel extensions into user processes thanks to the fact that Mach is a microkernel. They couldn't do that with the current Linux architecture.
  - emmelaich 7y ago
    Not only can you do it with Linux, a lot is already done; with SELinux, apparmour, grsecurity, PaX, qubes. They'd also save on kernel development AND get docker and a lot of other goodies.
lsllc 7y ago
I admire what Microsoft have done with WSL and now WSL2, it's really pretty cool. Satya has done an excellent job revitalizing Microsoft from the Ballmer days. However, WTF. Why has the "Microsoft" directory got a leading capital. I mean every.other.directory.in.linux.is.lower.case!!!!!! Look around folks! Every other vendor in that tree has their name lowercase, please respect the local customs!
- xur17 7y ago
  If it was lowercase it wouldn't show up at the top though! On a serious note, you should make a github issue.
- redact207 7y ago
  Not on my MacBook:/
- butterisgood 7y ago
  Because it’s an English proper noun?
  - _emacsomancer_ 7y ago
    You mean like 'linux'?
    - butterisgood 7y ago
      Sure, but if I worked at Microsoft there might be guidelines on the use of the company name. I doubt it’s worth reading into as some nefarious situation.
      - Dylan16807 7y ago
        The complaint is that it's gaudy, not "nefarious".
ngcc_hk 7y ago
No no no. Can’t be. They thought it is cancer ... The new Microsoft may finally let me go back to windows. Mac is too expensive.
b3b0p 7y ago
I've only imagined a Microsoft version of Linux (or BSD or ...). I figured it was the only way to get a polished consistent experience much like I have gotten (mostly, but not perfect) from Apple and macOS. The reason I left Linux on the Desktop in 2006 for macOS. I was tired of inconsistent experience, constantly tweaking, sleep/suspend/hibernate haphazardly working (or not). However, the one problem I have with switching to Windows, even with a flawless WSL (2), or full Linux/BSD/whatever OS under the hood, the whole Apple ecosystem integration, seamless syncing between all my devices and accounts will be hard to let go unless something from MSFT / Windows and company can provide that same convenience. From what I have researched, it's close, but still not there. It's too convenient. I know people will say they have problems with it (iCloud/macOS/iOS syncing/integration), but my experience and all my fellow constituents and family haven't. So, I have not witnessed nor experienced these issues people bring up in threads on HackerNews, Reddit, etc that I have seen (yet can't seem to find exact examples of at the moment with links). I really admire this work. I hope MSFT continues down the path they have been. I've always had a soft spot for them. I'm rooting for them.
kpU8efre7r 7y ago
Too many free / non-free / Linux / OSS ideologues. Does this let users do more? Does this give users more options? This is a good, practical feature. I'm excited to, hopefully soon, fully ditch Linux on desktop for something that actually works.
- posix_me_less 7y ago
  This system even installs new Microsoft software and tracks all your actions without any respect for you turning it off. Finally you can forget about the pain of deciding what is going on in your computer. Microsoft just knows the best so it indeed "just works(TM)". /s
galaxyLogic 7y ago
I think this will benefit windows users because now they have easy access to Linux but also probably to Linux users who now can write Linux programs that can access resources on a Windows machine. Conceptually it amounts to having England and France whose people speak their own languages and now there is an European Union language translator program that allows them to talk to each other in their own language. No?
- unilynx 7y ago
  I'd expect it to be mostly one way - Windows can access the Linux stuff. If I could do COM calls from Linux to a Windows hosted Excel.Application, now that would be amazing...
interfixus 7y ago
Embrace, extend, and extinguish. Has everyone forgotten?
selimonder 7y ago
Microsoft gained a lot of respect back! Great move executives, well done. But I believe in your intentions, keep it right, people like this.
voltagex_ 7y ago
It's really good - I was able to build extra modules for WSL2 with ease.
tannhaeuser 7y ago
Please could someone point me to a practical guide for a layman on how to run Linux apps on Windows 10? I want to give users compact installation instructions for shell and Node.js apps (1) mostly written for Linux/Mac OS, but I couldn't figure out what Windows version (Professional?) is required for WSL/WSL2, and how to install it. (1) Node.js of course runs natively on Win; however my apps makes particular assumptions wrt file paths, shared-reading/locking semantics, and spawning external shell scripts
- bytecod 7y ago
  WSL can be installed on any version of windows 10 from home up. Users first need to enable the WSL optional feature in their windows install, then they can install their favorite distro's userland from the windows store. More detailed instructions here: https://aka.ms/wslinstall https://aka.ms/wslinstall
  - oedmarap 7y ago
    Additionally, if you don't wish to use the Microsoft Store you can download the distro packages individually. [0] You then open/unzip the '.appx' package with any archiver such as 7Zip and place the files in a folder of your choosing; simply launching the distro executable ('ubuntu1804.exe' for example) to install and register the distro. You can then use that same executable to launch WSL for that distro in its own window, which makes it easy to add the icon as a shortcut to your taskbar for quick access like you would any Windows program, without having to open command line first. Added benefit is that you can store all your distros as folders (with individual rootfs and config files) in a parent location of your choosing such as a fast external array, without having to use the MS Store or an MS Account. [0] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-manual https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-manual
julienfr112 7y ago
The cancer grew so much that it now metastazed even in Microsoft Corp !
inamberclad 7y ago
Embrace, extend...
- dmos62 7y ago
  ... extinguish [0] This makes me nervous. This is a win-win now, but who can say they won't just do what they do and destroy desktop Linux as we know it when theirs gets the traction necessary? If I were a nefarious assembly of MS execs, my long-term plan would be to use Windows' UI friendliness and compatibility to attract Linux users (embrace) and, when there would be a critical mass of users, extend MS Linux to break compatibility with true Linux (extend and extinguish). What about the memorable MS exec quote "Linux is cancer"? For MS, Linux is cancer. For the consumer, MS is the cancer. Don't use their products. What's a company got to do to be shunned by the market? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
  - oblio 7y ago
    Desktop Linux has 0 traction. Ok, 0.5% traction. "The year of Desktop Linux" is a meme: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3038d4/when_was_the_first_year_of_the_linux_desktop/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3038d4/when_was_the_...
  - ginko 7y ago
    >This is a win-win now I don't see how this is a win-win. It incentivizes people (like developers who might otherwise stick to linux) to run a proprietary operating system.
    - dmos62 7y ago
      It's a win for the Linux user, because it increases the reach of Linux software. Think the uninitiated co-worker being able to run your scripts or something. It's a win for MS, because it makes their platform more powerful. Of course, to repeat myself, I don't think Windows is a good thing.
nojvek 7y ago
Haha. Linux really was a virus. The good kind that eventually won out because it was open and solved real problems that people wanted it everywhere. MS really playing the “we’ll go wherever the developers are” game really well.
mrmonkeyman 7y ago
"Embrace, extend, and extinguish" These words are not made up by journalists, these are the exact words Microsoft used internally. They do this, every. Single. Time. Everyone keeps falling for it, talking proudly about how MS changed so much and they are now somehow totally turned around. Yes.. ok, whatever you need to believe in. Just be warned, they will utterly drstroy everything they come into contact with. Or should I say: denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the umpteenth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.
mustak_im 7y ago
What is this repo based on? Was Microsoft working on this since 2004? It's commit history shows it was started in 2004??
smitty1e 7y ago
"I have a dream that was not that of Bill Gates."--MLK
tjpnz 7y ago
As a dev and Linux/OSX user I'm still struggling to see who exactly this is for. All of the tools I want to use are very well supported on OSX and I don't have much use for Microsoft software like Office these days with Google Sheets et cetera. Is this being geared more towards corporate customers who have chosen to standardise all of their IT on Microsoft products, but who need easier access to dev tools/environments?
- xmodem 7y ago
  This is great for any developer who prefers the Windows desktop experience to linux/macOS. I'm primarily on a mac myself, but I've used the original WSL and it works quite well.
  - h1d 7y ago
    I'm not sure what Windows offer better in terms of third party tooling which is what matters more than OS itself. I understand some need Windows only app to work but otherwise what does Windows offer better for third party apps that Mac doesn't for developers that WSL targets? I just can't think of one but I can think quite several the other way around.
- Spearchucker 7y ago
  Certianly aimed at me (non-corp) as I won't go near anything from Google. And while I've never had problems with them (worked there once), I'm amazingly pro Microsoft lately.
- john-radio 7y ago
  > As a dev and Linux/OSX user I'm still struggling to see who exactly this is for It is for Windows users. > All of the tools I want to use are very well supported on OSX and I don't have much use for Microsoft software like Office these days with Google Sheets et cetera. Sure, OS X is a good solution for people or institutions who can afford those computers, who don't want to or can't use Linux, and don't mind paying that much. > Is this being geared more towards corporate customers who have chosen to standardise all of their IT on Microsoft products, but who need easier access to dev tools/environments? Yes, definitely, or just individual developers who want to use Windows. I don't know any devs who do this, but Kenneth Reitz was tweeting a lot about how much he was enjoying working on Windows and thought people's complaints about it were overblown.
archey1 7y ago
Give it a few years, and Windows will be using the Linux kernel while shipping NT in this way for compatibility reasons.
guilhas 7y ago
I'll keep using my Arch linux with Windows in a virtual box. Win win.
xvilka 7y ago
Embrace, Extend and Extinguish. Still, the same until they: 1. Will give up FAT and exFAT patents 2. Stop racketeering Android vendors for their patented "inventions" Also, what happened with NTFS-3G[1] project? Seems dead for many years, while still not supporting some of the NTFS features. They should at least upload it to GitHub. [1] https://www.tuxera.com/community/open-source-ntfs-3g/ https://www.tuxera.com/community/open-source-ntfs-3g/
z3phyr 7y ago
Honestly, I would kill to see real shifts and development in operating systems space and computing space in general. I would rather love to be in a world where the industry incrementally adapts newer kinds of operating systems in their workflow, a world where different kinds of ideas (example plan9, inferno, lisp, oberon) are regularly experimented with in the marketplace. Here we are stuck with the same kinds of systems which just work in one way, and working on standardizing it; where CLI programs are still considered professional; This is spent effort to be lazy. Having said that, it is technologically worth studying.
gagahpangeran 7y ago
Maybe this will be one of my reasons for returning to Windows.
criddell 7y ago
Didn't Microsoft agree to never ship a Unix again when they sold Xenix?
- vbezhenar 7y ago
  Linux is not Unix.
  - criddell 7y ago
    I can't find details of the sale so maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it also applied to clone products.
rolph 7y ago
I wonder if they fixed this yet? from 2017 when wsl was beta and not a default component. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/09/12/microsoft_downplays_bashware_malware_threat/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/09/12/microsoft_downplays... apparently a bash on linux in wsl can deliver a payload to the windows environment. if windows is going to ship with its wsl turned on by default, bashware has to be addressed.
ryuukk_ 7y ago
windows is bloated af, even more with this they need to create their unix variant like macOS or people will continue to migrate to macOS
fithisux 7y ago
So where are the github repositories with the source code of drivers of the companies?
tempodox 7y ago
They still don't have a terminal application that deserves the name. The crap they built into the Ubuntu app is still the same torturous parody that's used in the DOS cmd interpreter. Even Cygwin has a much better terminal than that.
- figgis 7y ago
  https://github.com/microsoft/Terminal https://github.com/microsoft/Terminal

801 points by polyomino 7y ago

jppope 7y ago

Is this why they say to never push to production on Friday?

Someone1234 7y ago
Why? This seems to have been available for at least four days and there's no obvious problem/mistaken with it.

ncmncm 7y ago

Embrace... Extend...

dralley 7y ago
Overused meme is overused. Please explain to me how EEE can be applied to GPLv2 code.
- btgeekboy 7y ago
  The license is irrelevant. GPL code is useless if nobody uses it.
- viraptor 7y ago
  It can be pretty easily applied to GPLv2 in commercial agreement. "You get the source under GPL and all the rights, but if you publish anything, you're dead to us and you need our product". This is what grsecurity does with Linux kernel, but the extinguish part is not in their interest.
  - dralley 7y ago
    This post is literally a link to the source code published on Github, and the commits aren't obfuscated either.
    - viraptor 7y ago
      My explanation was unrelated to this specific code. You asked for how it can be done with this license.
- ncmncm 7y ago
  It is, and was, not just a meme. It was -- and may still be, where it can be made to work -- official corporate policy and strategy, at highest levels. Complaining about it didn't make it go away. Reduction of monopoly power limited opportunities to employ it. They have never renounced it, or admitted that it was wrong to have done it.
bitlax 7y ago
What has Microsoft extinguished lately?
- giancarlostoro 7y ago
  Indeed... It is Google now that does the extinguishing...
  - nordsieck 7y ago
    > It is Google now that does the extinguishing... Although, to be fair, they are really only extinguishing their own products.
    - furyofantares 7y ago
      Which were often acquired, or clones of something that died when it had to compete with Google
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    You know, it's funny. The browser world becomes a Chrome mono-culture and all the SV devs throw a fit, rightly, about the lack of competition. Then they turn around and cheer about the idea of Windows becoming just another chromium... er, sorry, Linux distribution.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      The SV devs helped Chrome reach where it is.
    - meruru 7y ago
      Those are not comparable things at all. For starters, Linux is under the GPL. It also wouldn't give Microsoft the level of control over the web that the Chrome monoculture gives to Google.
- Thaxll 7y ago
  Edge. Couple of years ago I was really pissed how they fucked up the merge between Hotmail and Skype, I lost so many "friends" because they killed MSN / hotmail.
giancarlostoro 7y ago
This is a topic about Microsoft not Google: Mail, Amp, Android (Linux), Google Talk / Hangouts (XMPP), Chrome (websites by Google and external parties that only work on Chrome), and I am probably missing other cases where standard tech has been extended into ways that only Google can support.
- danpat 7y ago
  The term "embrace, extend, and extinguish" was coined by Microsoft, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
  - davesmith1983 7y ago
    He knows that. However it is Google that seems to be practicing it now.
  - meddlepal 7y ago
    Yes everyone knows where it came from, but the FOSS communities continued screeching and pot banging with that phrase and Microsoft is both tired, played out, and near pointless considering what Google is actively doing to the software world right now.
    - michaelmrose 7y ago
      Dismissing legitimate concerns as screeching is pretty lame. Try making your your arguments without emotional manipulation. Microsoft was a bad actor and leopards rarely change their spots. Edit:Forgot to mention the classic whataboutism.
      - bshacklett 7y ago
        Thankfully, at least in this case, the same is not true for companies. When the highest level of leadership changes, its quite likely that the company, itself, will change as well. With competent leadership, Microsoft has found a new business model which is working well for them without trying to control the direction of the entire industry. We've got other big players, now, that are far more concerning to me.
cobalt 7y ago
so microsoft's open source linux kernel is going to cause everyone to stop using linux...?
- lytedev 7y ago
  Maybe on bare metal, but I imagine it will definitely add to the Linux userbase.
- linguae 7y ago
  No, not everyone is going to abandon Linux; I'm going to define Linux in this context as the traditional Linux desktop where people run some sort of X11 or Wayland window manager or desktop environment on top of a Linux kernel running on bare hardware. However, it would be interesting to see what impact the popularity of WSL will have on Linux desktop environments such as KDE, GNOME and its derivatives MATE and Cinnamon, and others such as XFCE. For example, macOS has long been popular with those wanting a polished *nix environment with support for commercial software packages and certain types of drivers, to the point that some high-profile developers such as Miguel de Icaza adopted the Mac. Some may argue that the Linux desktop may have evolved differently had macOS not been an option. Even so, the existence of macOS has not led to the extinction of the Linux desktop. Now, what makes WSL different from macOS is every major PC manufacturer ships their PCs with Windows 10 by default, and WSL can be installed easily on any PC running Windows 10. You can run Linux alongside Microsoft Office and Adobe Creative Suite without having to use WINE. The barrier of entry for using WSL is much lower for a lot of people than the barrier of entry for purchasing a Mac. This leads to some interesting questions. If a significant segment of Linux users abandon FOSS desktops such as KDE and GNOME for the Windows ecosystem, what will this mean for projects such as Firefox and LibreOffice? What will it mean for KDE, GNOME, and other FOSS desktop environments and window managers? Now, there will be a contingent of Linux users who won't migrate to WSL for a few reasons. There are some Linux users who won't use Windows, whether it's due to certain features such as telemetry and ads or whether it's due to some other aspect of Windows they don't like. There are some Linux users who need to run Linux directly on their hardware and thus WSL wouldn't fit their needs. There are also Linux users who care about using a stack of software that is fully free and open source and thus wouldn't switch to SWL. But will there be enough remaining users in order to justify further development of the FOSS Linux desktop in the eyes of major projects like LibreOffice and Firefox? We will see.
juststeve 7y ago
socialize the development, privatize the profits?

jdoliner 7y ago

My brain threw an exception when I read this title. Awesome that this is a reality though. Now that we have a Linux kernels running and accessible on both Windows and Chromebooks I feel like we can finally say: 2019 actually is the year of Linux on the desktop. It's not a meme anymore, it's finally just a true statement. Edit: To those questioning if this really counts as Linux on the Desktop. Yes, I understand what you're saying, I too am a bit of a blowhard about Linux and prefer to use the real deal, not some kernel on a kernel bs. But I think this is still a huge deal in terms of the accessibility of Linux, think of how many young programmers will be able to dip their toes in the Linux pool on their gaming rigs without having to go through an Ubuntu install process (I write, thinking in the back of my mind that I had to go through that, and so maybe they should too.) Yes there is something of an ideological compromise here, because the Linux they're running is sitting on a binary blob and not truly free... but Linux still exists in it's gloriously free form for them to use when they decide that's important to them, I see no harm in them reaping some of the other benefits of Linux without the freedom, it will hopefully become an on ramp to more Linux adopters and programmers.

wrs 7y ago
Well, technically yes, but…talk about moving the goalposts! Almost like swapping the goalposts.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  Always remember to lift the goalposts with your knees, not your back.
- mrbungie 7y ago
  Yep, except in this case is just one goalpost and everyone wins. Now we can enjoy using software as MS Office and userland from Linux distros in the same machine seamlessly.
  - phkahler 7y ago
    This is the "embrace" phase. It also kind of encompasses "extend" by adding hardware support via Windows drivers. This alone is not enough to get to "extinguish" though, so allow me to make a prediction. The next step is fully locked down hardware that requires a signed OS. Linux will not run on it, but MS will pretend to support you by allowing linux apps to run on their kernel. Then, once no hardware will allow you to run linux natively they will depreciate it and get people to migrate to better supported APIs of their own. People are just walking right into this as if none of Microsofts history ever happened. The only OK scenario is that MS becomes a larger version of Redhat and migrates users the other direction. Is that happening? No. It's all about bringing your toys to their house.

mullingitover 7y ago

I wish Microsoft would release their own linux-based OS with a compatibility layer to let me run Windows apps. I'm not overly impressed with the direction Apple is going but I really enjoy a *nix-native environment too much to go back to vanilla Windows. It would change the math a lot for me if it was full-blown linux under the hood.

groceryheist 7y ago
Totally agree. This is maybe the one thing that could potentially bring me back into the Microsoft ecosystem.
giancarlostoro 7y ago
Windows Subsystem for Linux is really close to that though. If you have not tried it yet you can download a Windows VM for developers from Microsoft that includes WSL and other dev goodies. Its mostly for evaluation but good enough to get started with. Edit: Here is the link to the Microsoft provided VMs: https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/downloads/virtual-machines https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/downloads/virt...
- mullingitover 7y ago
  This is still with Linux running in a VM though, right? I'd like a lightweight VM for legacy Windows and Linux running on metal. Given Microsoft's zeal for legacy support I'd say there's a snowball's chance in hell for this, but a man can dream.
  - SteveNuts 7y ago
    WSL version 2 uses the Hyper-V Virtualization API but is not a VM. The first version of WSL is just another process in task manager, with all the syscalls and filesystems emulated.
    - chrismorgan 7y ago
      Well, each WSL1 process is a Windows process. If you’re running vim in bash, for example, you’ll see “vim” and “bash” as separate processes in Task Manager. WSL is all about ELF binaries natively, just as Win32 runs PE executables natively.

kgc 7y ago

If it ships with Windows, doesn't that mean Windows is GPL now?

mey 7y ago
No more than running Linux in a VM makes the hypervisor GPL. They are distributing it via their store.

AdmiralAsshat 7y ago

All the Linux with none of the freedom. Yaaaay?

falcrist 7y ago
With Microsoft, this part is almost inevitable. Same with Google/Microsoft and privacy...
- alexanderdmitri 7y ago
  10 years ago I would have thought it unthinkable a Windows machine would be sending data behind the scenes about me to a remote server. This privacy policy[1] is insane: > Together, diagnostics and feedback are how you and your Windows 10 device tell Microsoft what's really going on. As you use Windows, we collect diagnostic information, and to make sure we're listening to you, our customer, we've also built ways for you to send us feedback anytime, and at specific times, like when Windows 10 asks you a question about how something is working for you. > There are two levels of diagnostic data: Basic and Full. [...] This data is transmitted to Microsoft and stored with one or more unique identifiers that can help us recognize an individual user on an individual device and understand the device's service issues and use patterns. > Specific data items collected in Windows diagnostics are subject to change to give Microsoft flexibility to collect the data needed for the purposes described. For example, to ensure Microsoft can troubleshoot the latest performance issue impacting users’ computing experience or update a Windows 10 device that is new to the market, Microsoft may need to collect data items that were not collected previously. For detailed info about the data that Microsoft collects at the Basic level, see Basic level Windows diagnostic events and fields. For more info about the data that Microsoft collects at the Full level, see Diagnostic data for full level. > We use the Basic level of diagnostic data to improve Windows. We use the Full level of diagnostic data to improve Windows and related products and services. > Some of the data described above may not be collected from your device even if your Diagnostic data setting is set to Full. Microsoft minimizes the volume of data we collect from all devices by collecting some of the data at the Full level from only a small percentage of devices (sample). By running the Diagnostic Data Viewer tool (available on newer versions of Windows), you can see an icon which indicates whether your device is part of a sample and also which specific data is collected from your device. Instructions for how to download the Diagnostic Data Viewer tool can be found at Start > Settings > Privacy > Diagnostics & feedback. > You can view diagnostic data for your device in real time by using the Diagnostic Data Viewer. Note that you will only be able to view data that is available while the Diagnostic Data Viewer is running. The Diagnostic Data Viewer does not allow you to view your diagnostic data history. If you click the feedback panel on the right edge, you get sent to another Microsoft privacy policy[2]: > We also use the data to operate our business, which includes analyzing our performance, meeting our legal obligations, developing our workforce, and doing research. In carrying out these purposes, we combine data we collect from different contexts (for example, from your use of two Microsoft products) or obtain from third parties to give you a more seamless, consistent, and personalized experience, to make informed business decisions, and for other legitimate purposes. > We share your personal data with your consent or to complete any transaction or provide any product you have requested or authorized. We also share data with Microsoft-controlled affiliates and subsidiaries; with vendors working on our behalf; when required by law or to respond to legal process; to protect our customers; to protect lives; to maintain the security of our products; and to protect the rights and property of Microsoft and its customers. > You can also make choices about the collection and use of your data by Microsoft. You can control your personal data that Microsoft has obtained, and exercise your data protection rights, by contacting Microsoft or using various tools we provide. In some cases, your ability to access or control your personal data will be limited, as required or permitted by applicable law. 1. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4468236/diagnostics-feedback-and-privacy-in-windows-10-microsoft-privacy https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4468236/diagnostics... 2. https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/privacystatement https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/privacystatement [edited to give excerpts from the second privacy I encountered trying to provide feedback to the first one!]

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

ChuckMcM 7y ago

Well that is pretty nice. WSL gets that much more exactly like Linux. What I really appreciate about WSL is that you get the accessibility of a bunch of OSS projects and a machine which has legit drivers for all of its component bits. What this means to me is that searching for a "linux laptop" won't be a chore, if it runs the latest Windows it will run Linux. And I can do development on the Linux side while communicating with senior management in power point on the Windows side :-). If they come up with a better/credible USB allocation scheme it will be icing on the cake. I also think they should buy one of the X server vendors and bundle it (comments about X.org from Redhat not withstanding) I use Xwin32 on my laptop with WSL and its pretty seamless in terms of things that want to pop up a GUI.

scardine 7y ago
There are a few annoyances with WSL2. For me the most important are: 1. You can't connect to a port listening on WSL localhost like in WSL1, you have to figure out the WSL IP address and use that. 2. From WSL you can't connect to a Windows TCP port on localhost, you must figure out the Windows IP (cat /etc/resolv.conf) and use that. 3. The WSL remote interpreter on PyCharm is not working anymore. The suggested workaround is "use SSH remote interpreter" but given #1 you can't connect to localhost (and the WSL IP changes every time you restart it) In order to use the SSH remote interpreter in my favorite IDE I'm using this script (on Windows): import subprocess import re output = subprocess.check_output('wsl.exe ifconfig') match = re.search(r"\sinet\s+(\d{1,3}\.\d{1,3}\.\d{1,3}\.\d{1,3})\s", output.decode('utf-8')) if match: ip = match.group(1) with open(r"C:\Windows\System32\drivers\etc\hosts") as i: content = i.read() new_content = re.sub(r"(172.\d+\.\d+\.\d+)\s+wsl", f"{ip} wsl", content, re.M) if new_content != content: try: with open(r"C:\Windows\System32\drivers\etc\hosts", "w") as o: o.write(new_content) except PermissionError: print(new_content) First I use the Windows Scheduler to start SSH (wsl service start ssh) on logon. Then this script is executed on logon with elevated privileges to update the hosts file. Instead of "localhost", I use "wsl" and it works well enough for me while I wait for the fixes. Despite the above, the combo Windows 10 + WSL2 is the best "Linux Desktop" for me.

antirez 7y ago

Microsoft: put a good POSIX layer into Windows. The times are mature now, and this allows your platform to benefit from a lot of open source system software easily, without portings and compatibility layers. At the same time, now that developers start to be annoyed big time by Apple nonsensical Mac handling, this gives a lot of devs, not developing primarily for the Win arch, the ability to evaluate Windows as a development machine.

bshacklett 7y ago
The pure geek in me really wishes they'd bring back SFU. Windows has a really impressive mechanism for implementing subsystems (I can't remember for sure, but I believe win32 is actually implemented on top of this layer). I'm sure there's far more complexity involved than I could imagine, but I've always loved the idea of having a bunch of different subsystems running without the need for virtualization.
- signal11 7y ago
  V1 of WSL (which isn’t going to go away IIRC) was essentially an iteration/improvement of the subsystem model, but with new things like picoprocesses. This article[1] has a good overview of the design goals, which mainly was to let unmodified binaries run. [1] https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/wsl/2016/04/22/windows-subsystem-for-linux-overview/ https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/wsl/2016/04/22/windows-subs...
rcarmo 7y ago
Spot on on quite a few counts. It is a way to regain developer mindshare, drive migration to Windows 10 (a major business target since many companies are still running Windows 7, which prevents adoption of modern enterprise features — even bits of Office services) and onboard more developers to Azure, since a substantial portion of online companies run Linux. As a long-time Mac user working at Microsoft (with Azure), this is the perfect storm. I can do everything I need on WSL 1 (except some networking stuff, obviously) and WSL 2 is going to let me get rid of Docker Desktop’s virtualization for Linux containers.
davesmith1983 7y ago

m0zg 7y ago

Now get GUI apps and CUDA working, and I'm in.

frequentnapper 7y ago

As an aside, which laptop do people here prefer for windows dev? I am split between Surface laptop and Lenovo X1 Carbon.

tonymet 7y ago
dell xps 15 with 4k display
rcarmo 7y ago
I’ve used both, and prefer the Surface Laptop to the X1 because the X1 screen and keyboard were garbage (blurry pixels and squishy keys). I work at Microsoft and was issued a Lenovo, then got a Surface Pro 4 and finally a Laptop. Everyone in my team who got the Book instead is a little sad because it’s a huge lumbering beast compared to the Laptop and tends to be top-heavy compared to the X1s and Yogas we had. Those of us with Pros (tablets) and Laptops love the portability, even if you only get one USB port. Also, all the Surface trackpads are MacBook-grade (although the software handling might need some tweaking for you to get exactly the same feeling - but I’m happy with mine now).
tbrock 7y ago
X1 Carbon!
Const-me 7y ago
Thick ones, able to house active cooling, and therefore fast CPUs. Where you can upgrade RAM and SSD with a screwdriver, without a heat gun. A brand doesn’t matter.
- frequentnapper 7y ago
  I travel quite a bit, so lightness is a requirement.
  - Const-me 7y ago
    I have an upgradeable 13.3" laptop, with active cooling, which weights 1.6kg. Light enough for all practical applications.

gfiorav 7y ago

I already use WSL1 as my main setup for web dev at work. If Windows comes to a point where doing anything doesn't immediately make the fan spin to maximum RPM, I'll be very happy to call Windows my digital home.

idlewords 7y ago

It's hard to win harder than this. People finding a way to see this as a betrayal or trick—it's what total victory looks like.

mtzet 7y ago

This is really Microsoft catching up to the Mac in terms of integration with the open-source ecosystem which importantly drives the web. In the mid 2000's the Mac really took off due to being a good-enough Linux replacement on the command line, while taking care of all the hardware integration and providing a sleek desktop experience. This really helped the Mac take off among hackers. This system wasn't as open-source as Linux, but it was good enough: Most of us don't want to mess about with the desktop stack. If the stack we care about is open-source and runs across many systems, then we still have the freedom. I find it fairly easy to work on both Mac OS X, Linux and WSL2 -- but not pre-WSL Windows. The inclusion of a Linux kernel really seems to cause a lot of confusion. No, Microsoft is not about to remove the NT kernel. No, they're not about to supplant Linux. WSL1 did what the guys from Illumos and FreeBSD have also done: since the Linux syscall interface is quite stable, the NT kernel can simply implement these syscalls and handle them appropriately. The was that the NT kernel was still sufficiently different that the filesystem performance was quite poor and complex applications like Docker required more kernel features than was provided by just the syscall API. Including a Linux kernel is really the nuclear option: rather than trying to fit Linux applications in Windows, they're running in their own world and providing integrations into this world. This means you can now run Docker on WSL2 for instance, but it's also complicated: Kernels really like to think that they own the world, for instance they keep memory around to use for later. WSL2 dynamically grows the amount of RAM allocated to the VM, which is quite clever, but I don't know how/if they're going to handle freeing memory again -- here the NT kernel really needs to communicate with the Linux kernel. Anyways, the upshot is that no, Microsoft is not going to take over the world, but perhaps it will be easier to use a Windows laptop which supports all the stupid Enterprise software I need but still have a Linux shell for actual work.

johanneswu 7y ago
There is a technique called "memory ballooning" http://www.vmwarearena.com/vmware-memory-management-part-3-memory-ballooning/ http://www.vmwarearena.com/vmware-memory-management-part-3-m..., which is probably also used by HyperV to free memory again.
StreamBright 7y ago
> a good-enough Linux replacement on the command line nit picking but it was more of a good enough bsd/unix than linux.

rsrx 7y ago

This is truly amazing. I have always developed on Windows and recently got a new contract where whole development environment is based on OSX/Linux. It has saved me hours and hours of work (and $$$) since I can run their environment in subsystem, while keeping Windows interface. Thank you, Nadella.

mehrdadn 7y ago

Is WSL2 more than just a VM? How is it different?

harrygeez 7y ago
for starters, it's not your typical VirtualBox VM running off your host OS. The Linux kernel in WSL2 runs on top of Hyper-V alongside Windows, which is also in a VM. Microsoft is leveraging the same technology they use to run Windows on Xbox alongside the game OS, so it's really like an OS with 2 kernels
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  I get that it's on a hypervisor but from a user standpoint how is that beneficial or any different from just running a normal VM in a hypervisor, is my question? Like I could've already run Hyper-V and installed Linux, so (how) is WSL2 different/better?
  - oaiey 7y ago
    I cannot answer your question. I can just tell you that they brought back Dave Cutler from retirement for this concept found in XBox and now Windows 10. This is definitely not that everyone's VM. And if you do not know Dave Cutler... Well he is a VMS veteran (a system which was also ground up virtualized) who designed the Windows NT Kernel. He is essentially a legend in the field of operating systems and engineering. There is a nice documentation around him.
- anticensor 7y ago
  More like 2 kernels and 5+ userlands (Linux native, GNU/Windows, .NET, Win32, OS/2). What is the "game OS"?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

andrekandre 7y ago

would this have been at all possible if linux had been GPLv3?

davesmith1983 7y ago
No.

envolt 7y ago

The only reason I'm sticking to my Macbook is the Linux based kernal, which makes it easier for me to use the command line, install NodeJS, build an application, install Redis Server on my local. Though everything can be done in Windows, it's not easy to do so. I specifically remember trying to install Redis on Windows and had to give up after the end of the day. Ended up creating a server and installing Redis on that on AWS. Also, people are complaining that Microsoft once said "Linux is Cancer" at some point. A lot has changed since then. Ubuntu was released after that which IMO helped to adopt Linux by an end user.

chx 7y ago
What did I just read. MacBook userspace is derived from NetBSD. The kernel is so far removed from BSD UNIX it's not worth even mentioning. This link you commented on points to the kernel used in WSL2 which gives you a full Linux under Windows. Unlike Mac where you probably will use homebrew to install Unix packages, this is a full, unadultered Linux machine. Even WSL1 allowed you to install anything from Ubuntu although some (very, very few!) didn't run, most importantly (for us) some debuggers.
andreapaiola 7y ago
LOL: MacOS is not Linux
fbn79 7y ago
MacOS don't have a Linux based Kernel. It's based on Darwin that comes from BSD.

_ph_ 7y ago

Now we only need a Windows-native Wayland server, which integrates seamlessly into the Windows desktop and of course just uses the Windows graphics stack.

anticensor 7y ago
Windows-native and .NET-based Wayland server.

asanagi_traps 7y ago

Are they going to push this to upstream ever? How are they, or we, are going to catch up when thousands of lines of code are added every day.

oaiey 7y ago
When I remember right, Microsoft is already a big contributor to the Linux Kernel. Do not forget, Azure has tons of Linux machines hosted. I think they know exactly how to ha ndle this. And I think currently they are just patching their own Linux together like any distro does

nigrioid 7y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...

utopcell 7y ago

The apt name would be Microsoft/Linux. But that would give Stallman an aneurysm.

yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
WSL 1 was GNU/NT, I would think.
- utopcell 7y ago
  ..and that would give him the final blow.
- anticensor 7y ago
  GNU/LinuxABI@kWindows actually.

oil25 7y ago

We've come a long way from Bill Gates' original characterization of open source (long before it was called that) as thievery - https://worldhistoryproject.org/1976/2/bill-gates-writes-open-letter-to-hobbyists https://worldhistoryproject.org/1976/2/bill-gates-writes-ope... I'm still sure as ever Microsoft is no friend of free (as in Freedom, not price) software and can't help but shake my head at this latest publicity stunt. I wouldn't trust their software any further than I throw it.

hollerith 7y ago
"Open source" has a precise definition [1], and your comment does not use the term correctly. [1] https://opensource.org/osd https://opensource.org/osd In particular, if the software or "work" was never made freely available by its lawful owner, it is not open source.
- oil25 7y ago
  Bill wrote his letter 21 years before this definition materialized and it actually served to inspire the free software/open source concept altogether. > There is a viable alternative to the problems raised by Bill Gates in his irate letter to computer hobbyists concerning "ripping off" software. When software is free, or so inexpensive that it's easier to pay for it than to duplicate it, then it won't be "stolen". —Jim Warren, July 1976
halter73 7y ago
That open letter had nothing to do open source (i.e libre) software as we understand the term today. It was simply asking hobbyists to pay for Altair BASIC which was not distributed under an open source license. I don't see how that's anything but reasonable unless you take the position that all software ought to be open source regardless the creators wishes.
oaiey 7y ago
Microsoft of today is only interested in one thing: earning money. Like any other corporation. if contributing to free software earns money (Azure, Developer mindshare, Store) they will do it. And the Linux foundation knows how to defend itself IP wise. It is about earning money. RedHat does it. Microsoft does it.

crazy_monkey 7y ago

This is how the corruption spreads...

hereme888 7y ago

I see it as another publicity stunt by the Big 5 tech companies to save their reputation amidst years of anti-privacy violations. From buying Github, to "supporting" open-source software. Yeah right, more like marketing to save your reputation. I'll keep moving further and further away from Big Tech. Will Microsoft send themselves more "aggregated" user data on how their new Linux kernel is being used? Will this have to be another rule for my firewall to block?

mav3rick 7y ago
No one in the mainstream public knows or cares about the Linux kernel or open source. People care about products. Not implementation details.
kpU8efre7r 7y ago
How do you guys have time to get any work done with all this zealotry?
- posix_me_less 7y ago
  It is possible. First, sometimes it is more benefitial to just pass on the shiny corp gadget. They are new, they look cool, everybody talks about them, but you often find that you can save attention span and protect privacy by ignoring it (e.g. facebook). Second, this stance make you look for alternatives. First you give up a lot, you have to work harder to work around. But if you do, you will have to go deeper into technology and think about how those things work. So it gives back so much in terms of brain development.

bin0 7y ago

Question for those with more technological knowledge than I have: will this allow AF_PACKET support on windows so I can run monitor mode stuff? CUDA acceleration? If I could avoid spending time getting nvidia drivers working on my laptop, that would be a massive help. And yeah, I know, I'm supposed to buy AMD stuff so I can use open source etc. But all the best hardware is nvidia, and so top hardware ships with nvidia. I've got to use this thing for my work as well, so it's not really an option, and I don't have the technical chops to quickly debug my drivers or wm or whatever.

3PS 7y ago
These are two of their highest requested features at the moment [1] [2], and if I recall correctly they specifically remarked on passing through hardware as one of their main priorities going forward with WSL2. Unfortunately it requires some vendor support so it's not an easy task to solve right away, but I would stay optimistic. [1] https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/266908-command-prompt-console-windows-subsystem-for-l/suggestions/17817685-support-af-packet-address-family-tcpdump-wireshar https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/266908-command-prompt-con... [2] https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/266908-command-prompt-console-windows-subsystem-for-l/suggestions/16108045-opencl-cuda-gpu-support https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/266908-command-prompt-con...
- bin0 7y ago
  I am indeed very optimistic. As much as I love linux, not having to get optimus GPUs set up on it would be a massive relief. I've voted on both before; here's to hoping!

meruru 7y ago

Who cares about the year of the Linux desktop when the world is still turning into 1984? There was a reason we wanted Linux to dominate and it wasn't so it would end like this.

mycall 7y ago
Linux desktop means little when people log into Google, Facebook et al.
- meruru 7y ago
  Exactly. Linux won on technical merits, but we failed to educate people about the really important part about freedom.
  - davesmith1983 7y ago
    When is Linux technically better? It is a good enough all rounder. There is this principle of "Worse is better" when it comes to many, many products. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worse_is_better https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worse_is_better Also the first versions of the kernel was released at the right time. It is decent enough, free, open source and was around at the right time. The internet was just becoming a thing, the PC ecosystem had "won" and it was pretty open in that anyone could manufacture a PC. There was an AT&T lawsuit wasn't happening in the 90s IIRC against the BSD Code. If Linus had created his kernel a little later or a litter earlier than it may have never received the interest it did.
  - AdeptusAquinas 7y ago
    Because we were too busy building Google, Facebook et al.
    - edejong 7y ago
      Money won over principles after all.
    - meruru 7y ago

sprashanth 7y ago

Just noticed the contributors as showing "∞ contributors" :D

meruru 7y ago
On Firefox for Android I have ∞ tabs open :)
judge2020 7y ago
Same for the official linux source https://github.com/torvalds/linux https://github.com/torvalds/linux

Breo 7y ago

Hello, folks, With this kernel we could use unix commands in somekind of terminal? Maybe node executations will run faster?

jasoneckert 7y ago

I'm sure that I'll have a nightmare tonight where I'm stuck in a Scooby Doo episode, and they unmask the ntoskrnl.exe binary to reveal this Linux kernel underneath....

emmelaich 7y ago

What's the bet that MacOS will switch to the Linux kernel within the next five years?

Sangeppato 7y ago
It's as likely as Google switching to the NT kernel for Andorid
- anticensor 7y ago
  Windows kernel is actually more suitable for Android than Linux kernel. In such an environment, JVM could have been the entire userland.
kristianp 7y ago
Not gonna happen. They already have a unix based OS (Darwin) that supports their Arm and x86 devices.
nine_k 7y ago
Zero. They need full control.
_ph_ 7y ago
What would be the motivation for Apple to do such a thing? MacOS is already a Unix, with a BSD-based userland. Also, they are doing active kernel development - as in architecture development - to enhance the system security, so that even root cannot compromise the system. One part of this is moving kernel extensions into user processes thanks to the fact that Mach is a microkernel. They couldn't do that with the current Linux architecture.
- emmelaich 7y ago
  Not only can you do it with Linux, a lot is already done; with SELinux, apparmour, grsecurity, PaX, qubes. They'd also save on kernel development AND get docker and a lot of other goodies.

lsllc 7y ago

I admire what Microsoft have done with WSL and now WSL2, it's really pretty cool. Satya has done an excellent job revitalizing Microsoft from the Ballmer days. However, WTF. Why has the "Microsoft" directory got a leading capital. I mean every.other.directory.in.linux.is.lower.case!!!!!! Look around folks! Every other vendor in that tree has their name lowercase, please respect the local customs!

xur17 7y ago
If it was lowercase it wouldn't show up at the top though! On a serious note, you should make a github issue.
redact207 7y ago
Not on my MacBook:/
butterisgood 7y ago
Because it’s an English proper noun?
- _emacsomancer_ 7y ago
  You mean like 'linux'?
  - butterisgood 7y ago
    Sure, but if I worked at Microsoft there might be guidelines on the use of the company name. I doubt it’s worth reading into as some nefarious situation.
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      The complaint is that it's gaudy, not "nefarious".

ngcc_hk 7y ago

No no no. Can’t be. They thought it is cancer ... The new Microsoft may finally let me go back to windows. Mac is too expensive.

b3b0p 7y ago

I've only imagined a Microsoft version of Linux (or BSD or ...). I figured it was the only way to get a polished consistent experience much like I have gotten (mostly, but not perfect) from Apple and macOS. The reason I left Linux on the Desktop in 2006 for macOS. I was tired of inconsistent experience, constantly tweaking, sleep/suspend/hibernate haphazardly working (or not). However, the one problem I have with switching to Windows, even with a flawless WSL (2), or full Linux/BSD/whatever OS under the hood, the whole Apple ecosystem integration, seamless syncing between all my devices and accounts will be hard to let go unless something from MSFT / Windows and company can provide that same convenience. From what I have researched, it's close, but still not there. It's too convenient. I know people will say they have problems with it (iCloud/macOS/iOS syncing/integration), but my experience and all my fellow constituents and family haven't. So, I have not witnessed nor experienced these issues people bring up in threads on HackerNews, Reddit, etc that I have seen (yet can't seem to find exact examples of at the moment with links). I really admire this work. I hope MSFT continues down the path they have been. I've always had a soft spot for them. I'm rooting for them.

kpU8efre7r 7y ago

Too many free / non-free / Linux / OSS ideologues. Does this let users do more? Does this give users more options? This is a good, practical feature. I'm excited to, hopefully soon, fully ditch Linux on desktop for something that actually works.

posix_me_less 7y ago
This system even installs new Microsoft software and tracks all your actions without any respect for you turning it off. Finally you can forget about the pain of deciding what is going on in your computer. Microsoft just knows the best so it indeed "just works(TM)". /s

galaxyLogic 7y ago

I think this will benefit windows users because now they have easy access to Linux but also probably to Linux users who now can write Linux programs that can access resources on a Windows machine. Conceptually it amounts to having England and France whose people speak their own languages and now there is an European Union language translator program that allows them to talk to each other in their own language. No?

unilynx 7y ago
I'd expect it to be mostly one way - Windows can access the Linux stuff. If I could do COM calls from Linux to a Windows hosted Excel.Application, now that would be amazing...

interfixus 7y ago

Embrace, extend, and extinguish. Has everyone forgotten?

selimonder 7y ago

Microsoft gained a lot of respect back! Great move executives, well done. But I believe in your intentions, keep it right, people like this.

voltagex_ 7y ago

It's really good - I was able to build extra modules for WSL2 with ease.

tannhaeuser 7y ago

Please could someone point me to a practical guide for a layman on how to run Linux apps on Windows 10? I want to give users compact installation instructions for shell and Node.js apps (1) mostly written for Linux/Mac OS, but I couldn't figure out what Windows version (Professional?) is required for WSL/WSL2, and how to install it. (1) Node.js of course runs natively on Win; however my apps makes particular assumptions wrt file paths, shared-reading/locking semantics, and spawning external shell scripts

bytecod 7y ago
WSL can be installed on any version of windows 10 from home up. Users first need to enable the WSL optional feature in their windows install, then they can install their favorite distro's userland from the windows store. More detailed instructions here: https://aka.ms/wslinstall https://aka.ms/wslinstall
- oedmarap 7y ago
  Additionally, if you don't wish to use the Microsoft Store you can download the distro packages individually. [0] You then open/unzip the '.appx' package with any archiver such as 7Zip and place the files in a folder of your choosing; simply launching the distro executable ('ubuntu1804.exe' for example) to install and register the distro. You can then use that same executable to launch WSL for that distro in its own window, which makes it easy to add the icon as a shortcut to your taskbar for quick access like you would any Windows program, without having to open command line first. Added benefit is that you can store all your distros as folders (with individual rootfs and config files) in a parent location of your choosing such as a fast external array, without having to use the MS Store or an MS Account. [0] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-manual https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-manual

julienfr112 7y ago

The cancer grew so much that it now metastazed even in Microsoft Corp !

inamberclad 7y ago

Embrace, extend...

dmos62 7y ago
... extinguish [0] This makes me nervous. This is a win-win now, but who can say they won't just do what they do and destroy desktop Linux as we know it when theirs gets the traction necessary? If I were a nefarious assembly of MS execs, my long-term plan would be to use Windows' UI friendliness and compatibility to attract Linux users (embrace) and, when there would be a critical mass of users, extend MS Linux to break compatibility with true Linux (extend and extinguish). What about the memorable MS exec quote "Linux is cancer"? For MS, Linux is cancer. For the consumer, MS is the cancer. Don't use their products. What's a company got to do to be shunned by the market? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
- oblio 7y ago
  Desktop Linux has 0 traction. Ok, 0.5% traction. "The year of Desktop Linux" is a meme: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3038d4/when_was_the_first_year_of_the_linux_desktop/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3038d4/when_was_the_...
- ginko 7y ago
  >This is a win-win now I don't see how this is a win-win. It incentivizes people (like developers who might otherwise stick to linux) to run a proprietary operating system.
  - dmos62 7y ago
    It's a win for the Linux user, because it increases the reach of Linux software. Think the uninitiated co-worker being able to run your scripts or something. It's a win for MS, because it makes their platform more powerful. Of course, to repeat myself, I don't think Windows is a good thing.

nojvek 7y ago

Haha. Linux really was a virus. The good kind that eventually won out because it was open and solved real problems that people wanted it everywhere. MS really playing the “we’ll go wherever the developers are” game really well.

mrmonkeyman 7y ago

"Embrace, extend, and extinguish" These words are not made up by journalists, these are the exact words Microsoft used internally. They do this, every. Single. Time. Everyone keeps falling for it, talking proudly about how MS changed so much and they are now somehow totally turned around. Yes.. ok, whatever you need to believe in. Just be warned, they will utterly drstroy everything they come into contact with. Or should I say: denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the umpteenth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

mustak_im 7y ago

What is this repo based on? Was Microsoft working on this since 2004? It's commit history shows it was started in 2004??

smitty1e 7y ago

"I have a dream that was not that of Bill Gates."--MLK

tjpnz 7y ago

As a dev and Linux/OSX user I'm still struggling to see who exactly this is for. All of the tools I want to use are very well supported on OSX and I don't have much use for Microsoft software like Office these days with Google Sheets et cetera. Is this being geared more towards corporate customers who have chosen to standardise all of their IT on Microsoft products, but who need easier access to dev tools/environments?

xmodem 7y ago
This is great for any developer who prefers the Windows desktop experience to linux/macOS. I'm primarily on a mac myself, but I've used the original WSL and it works quite well.
- h1d 7y ago
  I'm not sure what Windows offer better in terms of third party tooling which is what matters more than OS itself. I understand some need Windows only app to work but otherwise what does Windows offer better for third party apps that Mac doesn't for developers that WSL targets? I just can't think of one but I can think quite several the other way around.
Spearchucker 7y ago
Certianly aimed at me (non-corp) as I won't go near anything from Google. And while I've never had problems with them (worked there once), I'm amazingly pro Microsoft lately.
john-radio 7y ago
> As a dev and Linux/OSX user I'm still struggling to see who exactly this is for It is for Windows users. > All of the tools I want to use are very well supported on OSX and I don't have much use for Microsoft software like Office these days with Google Sheets et cetera. Sure, OS X is a good solution for people or institutions who can afford those computers, who don't want to or can't use Linux, and don't mind paying that much. > Is this being geared more towards corporate customers who have chosen to standardise all of their IT on Microsoft products, but who need easier access to dev tools/environments? Yes, definitely, or just individual developers who want to use Windows. I don't know any devs who do this, but Kenneth Reitz was tweeting a lot about how much he was enjoying working on Windows and thought people's complaints about it were overblown.

archey1 7y ago

Give it a few years, and Windows will be using the Linux kernel while shipping NT in this way for compatibility reasons.

guilhas 7y ago

I'll keep using my Arch linux with Windows in a virtual box. Win win.

xvilka 7y ago

Embrace, Extend and Extinguish. Still, the same until they: 1. Will give up FAT and exFAT patents 2. Stop racketeering Android vendors for their patented "inventions" Also, what happened with NTFS-3G[1] project? Seems dead for many years, while still not supporting some of the NTFS features. They should at least upload it to GitHub. [1] https://www.tuxera.com/community/open-source-ntfs-3g/ https://www.tuxera.com/community/open-source-ntfs-3g/

z3phyr 7y ago

Honestly, I would kill to see real shifts and development in operating systems space and computing space in general. I would rather love to be in a world where the industry incrementally adapts newer kinds of operating systems in their workflow, a world where different kinds of ideas (example plan9, inferno, lisp, oberon) are regularly experimented with in the marketplace. Here we are stuck with the same kinds of systems which just work in one way, and working on standardizing it; where CLI programs are still considered professional; This is spent effort to be lazy. Having said that, it is technologically worth studying.

gagahpangeran 7y ago

Maybe this will be one of my reasons for returning to Windows.

criddell 7y ago

Didn't Microsoft agree to never ship a Unix again when they sold Xenix?

vbezhenar 7y ago
Linux is not Unix.
- criddell 7y ago
  I can't find details of the sale so maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it also applied to clone products.

rolph 7y ago

I wonder if they fixed this yet? from 2017 when wsl was beta and not a default component. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/09/12/microsoft_downplays_bashware_malware_threat/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/09/12/microsoft_downplays... apparently a bash on linux in wsl can deliver a payload to the windows environment. if windows is going to ship with its wsl turned on by default, bashware has to be addressed.

ryuukk_ 7y ago

windows is bloated af, even more with this they need to create their unix variant like macOS or people will continue to migrate to macOS

fithisux 7y ago

So where are the github repositories with the source code of drivers of the companies?

tempodox 7y ago

They still don't have a terminal application that deserves the name. The crap they built into the Ubuntu app is still the same torturous parody that's used in the DOS cmd interpreter. Even Cygwin has a much better terminal than that.

figgis 7y ago
https://github.com/microsoft/Terminal https://github.com/microsoft/Terminal