9 ms·

NSA Improperly Collected U.S. Phone Records a Second Time

412 points by echevil 7y ago

harry8 7y ago
"Second." I'm pretty sure the words "at least" and "confirmed" are missing from this headline. Or just go with a straight up accurate headline. "The NSA Have Again Been Caught Lying Again and Have Zero Credibility" Accurate, unbiased and factual. You don't do middle ground between good and evil and call it balance. Facts are facts whatever you think of them. An opinion would be the NSA needs to be shut down, disbanded and a new department setup with clear guidelines for anything the NSA was doing that is deemed to be still worthwhile. Agreeing or not with that opinion doesn't alter the facts.
- oil25 7y ago
  Well said. Unfortunately I can't help but feel the Snowden revelations have had such a profound chilling effect on free speech and the press, that we are now afraid to go on record - even with pseudonyms - to denigrate the NSA, CIA and other government agencies. The thought that any idea, written or perhaps even not, is cataloged for eternity and scrutinized under unknown pretenses certainly gives me pause before I write or reply online now. Truly, I am afraid saying the "wrong" thing today may in a few short years turn out quite badly.
  - harry8 7y ago
    That reads like you're threatening me, fwiw.
mLuby 7y ago
NSA's job is to eavesdrop on hostile foreign actors' communications, while not infringing on the privacy of US citizens. AFGSC (formerly Strategic Air Command)'s job is to provide a credible nuclear deterrent while not losing nukes or irradiating Americans. Let's imagine if the NSA were in charge of the nukes: - "Whoops, someone stole a bunch of our nukes. But those were old nukes—we have better nukes now." - "Whoops, turns out we were nuking American cities. But Congressional oversight committees knew about it." Seriously, I can't even facepalm hard enough. I guess security is hard—everyone's annoyed with you until there's an attack and then everyone's blaming you for not annoying them more to prevent it. >These documents provide further evidence that the NSA has consistently been unable to operate the call detail record program within the bounds of the law. -ACLU >NSA identified additional data integrity and compliance concerns… The issues have been addressed and reported to congressional oversight committees. -NSA spokesperson
- FDSGSG 7y ago
  This is a super disingenuous comparison.
  - hjek 7y ago
    I also think that comparison is a bit of a stretch, although those US nuclear facepalm moments do exist[0]. [0]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/20/usaf-atomic-bomb-north-carolina-1961 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/20/usaf-atomic-bo...
    - cf141q5325 7y ago
      Also, a list of the nuclear weapons which got lost https://interestingengineering.com/broken-arrows-the-worlds-lost-nuclear-weapons https://interestingengineering.com/broken-arrows-the-worlds-... There is a drove of stories around nuclear weapons, I also enjoyed "Missile doors left open while Air Force nuclear officer slept" with the explanation, that they left it open for the food delivery guy. https://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/23/us/air-force-nuclear-silo-doors-opened/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/23/us/air-force-nuclear-silo... John Olivers episode on it is also amazing. https://youtu.be/1Y1ya-yF35g https://youtu.be/1Y1ya-yF35g For a weird one meet one of the masterminds responsible for them: https://youtu.be/1Y1ya-yF35g?t=439 https://youtu.be/1Y1ya-yF35g?t=439
- nocturnial 7y ago
  >NSA's job is to eavesdrop on hostile foreign actors' communications I'm pretty sure the NSA also eavesdrops on friendly foreign actors. I'm also sure that the friendly foreign actors aren't pleased with it. I don't know why this isn't taken into account in foreign US policy.
spsrich2 7y ago
Wow, shocker!
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
gjs278 7y ago
I’m surprised they even confirm this kind of stuff. they could easily cover it up. who even polices the NSA?
DigitalTerminal 7y ago
ROFL. Actually click through and read this document: https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/nsa-foia-documents-quarterly-reports-intelligence-oversight-board-nsa-activities https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/nsa-foia-documents-quart.... The title is super misleading. It has the NSA being the subject of the sentence, the entity doing the verb. If you read the document, it's clear that the NSA followed the law in how they sent requests over to the phone companies, and a couple companies made errors in what they sent back. When NSA discovered this, they reported it through the proper channels. This is like, the opposite of nefarious action, guys. A better title would have the phone companies as the subject of the sentence. "Phone companies improperly sent data to the NSA for a second time, documents reveal." Of course, being honest in the title wouldn't misinform and scare people...
- atoav 7y ago
  I am not a US citizen but doesn’t this “second time” refer to some kind of promise the NSA made not to spy on US citizen?
  - jonathanstrange 7y ago
    Not an expert on it, but I don't think so. They are and always have been allowed to collect information on US citizens that are in contact with foreigners. Many consider this a problem, because ultimately every US citizen is in contact with a foreigner at one time or another, but AFAIK the general rule has never changed. For me and the vast majority of the world population the distinction doesn't matter, because according to US law the NSA is allowed to spy on us as they please. Of course, this practice is illegal were we live, but that's not going to bother them.
    - sureaboutthis 7y ago
      Contact with foreign entities when that person is under investigation for illegal activities. The NSA does not investigate your communication just because you call a foreign entity.
freeflight 7y ago
A "second time" makes it sound like it's some kind of limited process that happens extremely rarely and was stopped after the "first time" became public. When in reality we are talking about surveillance [0] and surveillance doesn't work with "probes", it's based on constant monitoring and thus requires massive infrastructure [1]. So when was this supposedly stopped, to make it a "second time"? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center
- Fnoord 7y ago
  Great point. I guess a better way of saying is that the NSA got caught a second time.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
Epopeehief54 7y ago
What did you expect? Real Journalism? Its the Wall Street Journal, not real news. They need click bait titles in order to get more exposure and sell more ads. What ever it takes to get a few more clicks...Their motivation like most news companies today is making money, not informing the public. They are for profit corporations after all.
- butteroverflow 7y ago
  That's why we need more state-sponsored news media like Pravda. A government employee subsisting on state money wouldn't have the same motivation to write clickbait articles and lie to people. Edit: Jesus Christ, I thought I could not have made the sarcasm more obvious. Turns out I could.
  - roblabla 7y ago
    They might not have the same motivation to write clickbait articles, but state-sponsored news certainly has plenty of motivation to distort the facts as well. We've seen what the current US administration thinks of the truth...
  - inflatableDodo 7y ago
    Hi from the UK, where one of our current scandals is the state broadcaster censoring parts of a documentary about the foreign office, directly at the foreign office's request, in order to remove comments made by Boris Johnson, in which he called the French 'turds'. The government has argued, according to leaked memos, that Johnson’s comment could cause ‘significant damage’ to Britain and that it made a mockery of the Government’s aim in agreeing to the documentary, to ‘promote Global Britain to a UK audience’."
    - butteroverflow 7y ago
      Hi from the former Soviet Union, where everything the state media says is true, and if it doesn't turn out to be true, it is because of misinformation spread by our foreign enemies. I was not aware you should not post here anything less literal than x86 assembly, now I know.
BorRagnarok 7y ago
We all know that the NSA will never be regulated. They have the most dirt on everybody.
Pulletwee12549 7y ago
I did NOT see this coming.
xfitm3 7y ago
As someone pointed out the NSA is following the law - but the 90s are over. Wiretaps are now obsolete through layer 7 data collection..
sarcasmatwork 7y ago
But the NSA was never collecting data.... <James Clapper/John Brennan>

412 points by echevil 7y ago

"Second." I'm pretty sure the words "at least" and "confirmed" are missing from this headline. Or just go with a straight up accurate headline. "The NSA Have Again Been Caught Lying Again and Have Zero Credibility" Accurate, unbiased and factual. You don't do middle ground between good and evil and call it balance. Facts are facts whatever you think of them. An opinion would be the NSA needs to be shut down, disbanded and a new department setup with clear guidelines for anything the NSA was doing that is deemed to be still worthwhile. Agreeing or not with that opinion doesn't alter the facts.

oil25 7y ago
Well said. Unfortunately I can't help but feel the Snowden revelations have had such a profound chilling effect on free speech and the press, that we are now afraid to go on record - even with pseudonyms - to denigrate the NSA, CIA and other government agencies. The thought that any idea, written or perhaps even not, is cataloged for eternity and scrutinized under unknown pretenses certainly gives me pause before I write or reply online now. Truly, I am afraid saying the "wrong" thing today may in a few short years turn out quite badly.
- harry8 7y ago
  That reads like you're threatening me, fwiw.

mLuby 7y ago

NSA's job is to eavesdrop on hostile foreign actors' communications, while not infringing on the privacy of US citizens. AFGSC (formerly Strategic Air Command)'s job is to provide a credible nuclear deterrent while not losing nukes or irradiating Americans. Let's imagine if the NSA were in charge of the nukes: - "Whoops, someone stole a bunch of our nukes. But those were old nukes—we have better nukes now." - "Whoops, turns out we were nuking American cities. But Congressional oversight committees knew about it." Seriously, I can't even facepalm hard enough. I guess security is hard—everyone's annoyed with you until there's an attack and then everyone's blaming you for not annoying them more to prevent it. >These documents provide further evidence that the NSA has consistently been unable to operate the call detail record program within the bounds of the law. -ACLU >NSA identified additional data integrity and compliance concerns… The issues have been addressed and reported to congressional oversight committees. -NSA spokesperson

FDSGSG 7y ago
This is a super disingenuous comparison.
- hjek 7y ago
  I also think that comparison is a bit of a stretch, although those US nuclear facepalm moments do exist[0]. [0]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/20/usaf-atomic-bomb-north-carolina-1961 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/20/usaf-atomic-bo...
  - cf141q5325 7y ago
    Also, a list of the nuclear weapons which got lost https://interestingengineering.com/broken-arrows-the-worlds-lost-nuclear-weapons https://interestingengineering.com/broken-arrows-the-worlds-... There is a drove of stories around nuclear weapons, I also enjoyed "Missile doors left open while Air Force nuclear officer slept" with the explanation, that they left it open for the food delivery guy. https://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/23/us/air-force-nuclear-silo-doors-opened/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/23/us/air-force-nuclear-silo... John Olivers episode on it is also amazing. https://youtu.be/1Y1ya-yF35g https://youtu.be/1Y1ya-yF35g For a weird one meet one of the masterminds responsible for them: https://youtu.be/1Y1ya-yF35g?t=439 https://youtu.be/1Y1ya-yF35g?t=439
nocturnial 7y ago
>NSA's job is to eavesdrop on hostile foreign actors' communications I'm pretty sure the NSA also eavesdrops on friendly foreign actors. I'm also sure that the friendly foreign actors aren't pleased with it. I don't know why this isn't taken into account in foreign US policy.

spsrich2 7y ago

Wow, shocker!

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

gjs278 7y ago

I’m surprised they even confirm this kind of stuff. they could easily cover it up. who even polices the NSA?

DigitalTerminal 7y ago

ROFL. Actually click through and read this document: https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/nsa-foia-documents-quarterly-reports-intelligence-oversight-board-nsa-activities https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/nsa-foia-documents-quart.... The title is super misleading. It has the NSA being the subject of the sentence, the entity doing the verb. If you read the document, it's clear that the NSA followed the law in how they sent requests over to the phone companies, and a couple companies made errors in what they sent back. When NSA discovered this, they reported it through the proper channels. This is like, the opposite of nefarious action, guys. A better title would have the phone companies as the subject of the sentence. "Phone companies improperly sent data to the NSA for a second time, documents reveal." Of course, being honest in the title wouldn't misinform and scare people...

atoav 7y ago
I am not a US citizen but doesn’t this “second time” refer to some kind of promise the NSA made not to spy on US citizen?
- jonathanstrange 7y ago
  Not an expert on it, but I don't think so. They are and always have been allowed to collect information on US citizens that are in contact with foreigners. Many consider this a problem, because ultimately every US citizen is in contact with a foreigner at one time or another, but AFAIK the general rule has never changed. For me and the vast majority of the world population the distinction doesn't matter, because according to US law the NSA is allowed to spy on us as they please. Of course, this practice is illegal were we live, but that's not going to bother them.
  - sureaboutthis 7y ago
    Contact with foreign entities when that person is under investigation for illegal activities. The NSA does not investigate your communication just because you call a foreign entity.

freeflight 7y ago

A "second time" makes it sound like it's some kind of limited process that happens extremely rarely and was stopped after the "first time" became public. When in reality we are talking about surveillance [0] and surveillance doesn't work with "probes", it's based on constant monitoring and thus requires massive infrastructure [1]. So when was this supposedly stopped, to make it a "second time"? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center

Fnoord 7y ago
Great point. I guess a better way of saying is that the NSA got caught a second time.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

Epopeehief54 7y ago

What did you expect? Real Journalism? Its the Wall Street Journal, not real news. They need click bait titles in order to get more exposure and sell more ads. What ever it takes to get a few more clicks...Their motivation like most news companies today is making money, not informing the public. They are for profit corporations after all.

butteroverflow 7y ago
That's why we need more state-sponsored news media like Pravda. A government employee subsisting on state money wouldn't have the same motivation to write clickbait articles and lie to people. Edit: Jesus Christ, I thought I could not have made the sarcasm more obvious. Turns out I could.
- roblabla 7y ago
  They might not have the same motivation to write clickbait articles, but state-sponsored news certainly has plenty of motivation to distort the facts as well. We've seen what the current US administration thinks of the truth...
- inflatableDodo 7y ago
  Hi from the UK, where one of our current scandals is the state broadcaster censoring parts of a documentary about the foreign office, directly at the foreign office's request, in order to remove comments made by Boris Johnson, in which he called the French 'turds'. The government has argued, according to leaked memos, that Johnson’s comment could cause ‘significant damage’ to Britain and that it made a mockery of the Government’s aim in agreeing to the documentary, to ‘promote Global Britain to a UK audience’."
  - butteroverflow 7y ago
    Hi from the former Soviet Union, where everything the state media says is true, and if it doesn't turn out to be true, it is because of misinformation spread by our foreign enemies. I was not aware you should not post here anything less literal than x86 assembly, now I know.

BorRagnarok 7y ago

We all know that the NSA will never be regulated. They have the most dirt on everybody.

Pulletwee12549 7y ago

I did NOT see this coming.

xfitm3 7y ago

As someone pointed out the NSA is following the law - but the 90s are over. Wiretaps are now obsolete through layer 7 data collection..

sarcasmatwork 7y ago

But the NSA was never collecting data.... <James Clapper/John Brennan>