8 ms·

One thing confuses me in this discussion: are businesses free to lie? It sounds like businesses might lie, and the consumer is responsible for detecting that,

by turadg 7y ago

One thing confuses me in this discussion: are businesses free to lie? It sounds like businesses might lie, and the consumer is responsible for detecting that, and the only consequence for the business is that enough people “kick back”. But that would still mean it’s rational to lie when it causes a net increase in profits. Not good for society. Isn’t this something the Federal Trade Commission is supposed to help with?

nradov 7y ago
Lying in general is legal, but fraud and deceptive trade practices aren't. So it depends on the facts of a particular case.
- stubish 7y ago
  It depends on the jurisdiction. There are a number of locales with 'truth in advertising' type laws. Around here I see signs for 'probably the best steak in town' etc., which I find amusing every time I see the weasel wording.
  - rhino369 7y ago
    Even most truth in advertising laws allow for some sales puffery. Typically you can "the best steak in town!" But you can't say "Rated the best steak in town" if it wasn't.
    - Frondo 7y ago
      It also feels like, at this point in history, "Best steak in town!" is, even if pretty widely untrue (e.g. the steak is leathery, very few people would consider it edible let alone the best, etc etc), that's a benign kind of puffery. People aren't basing large decisions or spending large amounts of money on the veracity of that being the best steak in town. I think that's another reason why that stuff gets a pass. It's small-time, it's local, restaurants already run on razor-thin margins, etc. You can't systematically defraud ten thousand hotel-bookers a day with a "best steak in town" sign in your window. And to some extent, we expect everyone to have that kind of pride in their restaurant, so who cares if they say that stuff?
      - tomp 7y ago
        Taste is subjective therefore best is subjective as well. I make the "best" beef fillet steak (for me), but most people would throw it away (it's well done, I prefer it like that... but waiters often try to convince me to change my order if I order a well done steak!).
        perl4ever 7y ago
        I ordered a "well done" hamburger at a bar & grill type place once and it was delivered charred. I supposed the cook was offended, but I didn't get it - it was just a hamburger.
  - wil421 7y ago
    In my opinion, claiming to have the best steak in the town is a lot different than claiming your bogus health drink or natural vitamin pill actually helps your mind and body. Best X in town is an opinion, snake oil is snake oil.
    - droithomme 7y ago
      "helps your mind and body" is true for most drinks since water and sugars are needed to stay alive and to think. It's not even puffery because it's empirically and provably true. "Helps cure your cancer" on the other hand is not only misleading advertising but falls afoul of FDA prohibitions on making unsubstantiated medical claims.
      - wil421 7y ago
        The ones that really piss me off are there “studies shown to lower cholesterol” or “improve heart function”. Or the ketchup that has lycopene for men’s help. Yup that and a boatload of sugar.
  - droithomme 7y ago
    The claim of having the best steak, the best steak in the world, or the best steak in the universe, is permitted. This sort of claim is known as "puffery". Saying that your steak was voted best steak in the state 10 years in a row by Consumer Reports is a more specific claim and is false advertising if not true. https://smallbusiness.chron.com/puffery-advertising-24357.html https://smallbusiness.chron.com/puffery-advertising-24357.ht... Saying that someone just bought the last hotel room at that price when it wasn't true is definitely a specific claim, is false, and is misleading advertising and is illegal. We don't need more of the same laws. We can stop many of the dark pattern practices being described simply by enforcing existing law. It's pointless to create new redundant laws when we have no intention of enforcing the existing ones. Obviously the new law won't be enforced either and we'll just have more laws on the books. The purpose of these proposals is for politicians to claim they did something by passing a new law.
- ThrustVectoring 7y ago
  The nuanced view is that while lying is legal, causing economic damages through lying is a civil tort. You can brag that your car can do zero to sixty in 3.5 seconds all you want, so long as nobody loses money on that basis.
rolltiide 7y ago
Commercial speech is not protected in the United States, as decided by the Supreme Court long ago The extent of this is carveout largely misunderstood and ripe for challenge, enjoy! Yes, it goes against the social contract that most people understand. Yes, you can create legal consequences for A LOT of people anyway, whether the idea is popular or not.
adverbly 7y ago
What if we just took the whole patent troll industry, and had them target corporations for their false advertising instead of for their legitimate inventions?

by turadg 7y ago

nradov 7y ago

Lying in general is legal, but fraud and deceptive trade practices aren't. So it depends on the facts of a particular case.

stubish 7y ago
It depends on the jurisdiction. There are a number of locales with 'truth in advertising' type laws. Around here I see signs for 'probably the best steak in town' etc., which I find amusing every time I see the weasel wording.
- rhino369 7y ago
  Even most truth in advertising laws allow for some sales puffery. Typically you can "the best steak in town!" But you can't say "Rated the best steak in town" if it wasn't.
  - Frondo 7y ago
    It also feels like, at this point in history, "Best steak in town!" is, even if pretty widely untrue (e.g. the steak is leathery, very few people would consider it edible let alone the best, etc etc), that's a benign kind of puffery. People aren't basing large decisions or spending large amounts of money on the veracity of that being the best steak in town. I think that's another reason why that stuff gets a pass. It's small-time, it's local, restaurants already run on razor-thin margins, etc. You can't systematically defraud ten thousand hotel-bookers a day with a "best steak in town" sign in your window. And to some extent, we expect everyone to have that kind of pride in their restaurant, so who cares if they say that stuff?
    - tomp 7y ago
      Taste is subjective therefore best is subjective as well. I make the "best" beef fillet steak (for me), but most people would throw it away (it's well done, I prefer it like that... but waiters often try to convince me to change my order if I order a well done steak!).
      - perl4ever 7y ago
        I ordered a "well done" hamburger at a bar & grill type place once and it was delivered charred. I supposed the cook was offended, but I didn't get it - it was just a hamburger.
- wil421 7y ago
  In my opinion, claiming to have the best steak in the town is a lot different than claiming your bogus health drink or natural vitamin pill actually helps your mind and body. Best X in town is an opinion, snake oil is snake oil.
  - droithomme 7y ago
    "helps your mind and body" is true for most drinks since water and sugars are needed to stay alive and to think. It's not even puffery because it's empirically and provably true. "Helps cure your cancer" on the other hand is not only misleading advertising but falls afoul of FDA prohibitions on making unsubstantiated medical claims.
    - wil421 7y ago
      The ones that really piss me off are there “studies shown to lower cholesterol” or “improve heart function”. Or the ketchup that has lycopene for men’s help. Yup that and a boatload of sugar.
- droithomme 7y ago
  The claim of having the best steak, the best steak in the world, or the best steak in the universe, is permitted. This sort of claim is known as "puffery". Saying that your steak was voted best steak in the state 10 years in a row by Consumer Reports is a more specific claim and is false advertising if not true. https://smallbusiness.chron.com/puffery-advertising-24357.html https://smallbusiness.chron.com/puffery-advertising-24357.ht... Saying that someone just bought the last hotel room at that price when it wasn't true is definitely a specific claim, is false, and is misleading advertising and is illegal. We don't need more of the same laws. We can stop many of the dark pattern practices being described simply by enforcing existing law. It's pointless to create new redundant laws when we have no intention of enforcing the existing ones. Obviously the new law won't be enforced either and we'll just have more laws on the books. The purpose of these proposals is for politicians to claim they did something by passing a new law.
ThrustVectoring 7y ago
The nuanced view is that while lying is legal, causing economic damages through lying is a civil tort. You can brag that your car can do zero to sixty in 3.5 seconds all you want, so long as nobody loses money on that basis.

rolltiide 7y ago

Commercial speech is not protected in the United States, as decided by the Supreme Court long ago The extent of this is carveout largely misunderstood and ripe for challenge, enjoy! Yes, it goes against the social contract that most people understand. Yes, you can create legal consequences for A LOT of people anyway, whether the idea is popular or not.

adverbly 7y ago

What if we just took the whole patent troll industry, and had them target corporations for their false advertising instead of for their legitimate inventions?