21 ms·

The Hidden Cost of GoFundMe Health Care

124 points by longdefeat 7y ago

maxxxxx 7y ago
Whenever I see these I tend to think that the people who have the best story will get the most money and not the ones who need it. It's pretty much a market for self-promoters and scammers, not necessarily people who need help. I also believe that in a civilized, developed, wealthy country this should not be necessary.
- luckylion 7y ago
  > I also believe that in a civilized, developed, wealthy country this should not be necessary. This I generally agree with, though we will probably disagree on the extent and how much it should cover, what limitations it should put on your behavior etc. > It's pretty much a market for self-promoters and scammers, not necessarily people who need help. This, I feel, just describes reality. The squeaky wheel gets the oil, those that ask for help the most, cry the loudest, demand support the most aggressive etc get most of it, not necessarily (and imho rarely) those that need it the most.
noncoml 7y ago
I have an acquaintance who is working in a top Bay Area tech company with a total compensation of close to $200k. Her parents visited her and sadly her Dad had a cardiac episode and had to be taken to ER. They stabilized him and thankfully he managed to go back to his home country and get proper treatment. The ER bill was about $50k and she decided that the best way to pay it was by creating a GoFundMe campaign before she even tried to negotiate with the hospital or fight it with the insurance. She managed to raise $15k. After seeing that I am reluctant to donate any money to GoFundMe campaigns.
- xenospn 7y ago
  Most people visiting the US have travel insurance which can cover most or all related costs for about $1/day.
  - noncoml 7y ago
    Yes. But you usually have to fight it to get it. They will very often try to play the “pre-existing condition” card, as they did in this case.
    - bluescrn 7y ago
      Which is the fundamental problem with private healthcare. Fine if you win the genetic lottery. Not so much if you’re born with pre-existing conditions.
      - justrudd 7y ago
        If only it was just genetics. I broke my right leg (femur) when I was 4 years old. After it healed, I never had a single problem with it. Played basketball, baseball, and I still lift weights today. I'm not in great shape, but probably better than average. My right knee started giving me problems. Meniscus tear. Didn't need a surgical solution just PT. Insurance denied paying for my PT because of "strain on the ligaments caused by prior break to femur". 39 years later? Maybe. But to deny PT sessions over that? That's stretching it.
    - xenospn 7y ago
      You don't. Your insurance company back home will fight with the US provider.
  - altmind 7y ago
    Moreover, when on J1 visa you can get qualifying insurance for 30$/yr. It seems that such insurances may not cover long disability - you may need to go to your home country for a serious treatment.
  - StreamBright 7y ago
    Not at all. A good insurance that gets you actually covered for more than tipping over in your shoelace is much more. 1 month: https://ibb.co/fnq4d1v https://ibb.co/fnq4d1v Details: https://ibb.co/PTrSFHx https://ibb.co/PTrSFHx https://ibb.co/cvyPvjW https://ibb.co/cvyPvjW
- bluedino 7y ago
  Can a medical bill follow you back to your home country?
  - nradov 7y ago
    Of course. It's no different than any other debt. In theory the provider can obtain a judgment against the patient and then ask the home country's court system to enforce it. But in practice this is so expensive, uncertain, and time consuming that most creditors will just write it off as bad debt.
  - dougmwne 7y ago
    I recently read about people with US student loan debt escaping from it by going abroad where their credit history wouldn't follow them and the loan companies would't be able to get wage garnishments. It's at least possible that this woman's father had no real incentive to pay the bill, making the GoFundMe triply redundant.
    - retiredcoder 7y ago
      So, I cannot speak how easy/hard is to collect debt abroad but I do know that it is possible for prospective employers to query the credit history. I have recently applied for a job in the finance industry in Denmark, the institution did poke into my American financial life. That also happened when I worked for banks the UK and Wall Street.
- superfrank 7y ago
  Maybe I'm just being dumb, but I don't really understand why that makes you reluctant to donate. It's not like your friend is trying to scam you or anything. That money is actually going to a bill that they are required to pay. Most people I talk to don't even know they can negotiate hospital bills. Seems weird to act like your friend or GoFundMe is the villain here, when the issue is really a healthcare system that has a "secret menu".
  - reallydontask 7y ago
    isn't the issue the fact that said friend could afford to pay the bill? This is not to detract from your comment about the system being broken
  - noncoml 7y ago
    I am not so sure. When she has the money to pay for it, but instead chooses to portrait like she doesn't and asks others to pay for it, I think it's at least immoral. It goes without saying that the healthcare system is completely broken, but that doesn't justify above behavior.
    - bbarn 7y ago
      200K in the bay area is not exactly wealthy. It's a solid middle to upper-middle class wage. Taking a 50K hit for something you did nothing to deserve, just because you love your parent is stupid. I would hate it if my daughter tried to do that for me.
      - imgabe 7y ago
        What did their friends and acquaintances do to deserve the bill?
        warent 7y ago
        Sorry but this sounds a little bit backward to me. Helping a friend in need or being altruistic is never a punishment. It's like refusing to donate money to some cause because what did I do to deserve that? Really an odd statement.
- davidw 7y ago
  I sometimes give to them, but I also make a donation to politicians or groups fighting for an actual fix for the health care system in this country.
- bazooka_penguin 7y ago
  A donation isnt an obligation. If you're willing give then by all means do so, if not then it's not a big deal and if your friend gives you trouble for it then tell her off. I see your discomfort with her making a GoFundMe the same as you view her not trying to negotiate the price down. When you're comfortable setting boundaries a lot of the discomfort in life goes away and things like trying to negotiate with someone or being uncomfortable with friends looking for (perhaps unnecessary) help on a bill become things you can handle
- maxxxxx 7y ago
  "The ER bill was about $50k and she decided that the best way to pay it was by creating a GoFundMe campaign before she even tried to negotiate with the hospital or fight it with the insurance. " at a minimum she should have tried to deal with the insurance and the hospital first. She makes 200k. There are other people who are much more deserving of help.
  - superfrank 7y ago
    Donations aren't a zero sum game. If she's soliciting her social network, odds are most of these donations aren't being diverted from other GoFundMes. Most of the money donated would probably be spent in other ways if the campaign didn't exist.
    - maxxxxx 7y ago
      Personally I have seen a pattern where people who are making more money are less reluctant to ask for money versus people who really don’t have money. They often seem to suffer in silence. I have now seen several occasions where people who are making very good money are hitting others up for money for health care or weddings. It leaves a bad taste with me. From a certain income you should take care of yourself.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- ikiris 7y ago
  What does what she make have to do with a bill for her parents?
- tonymet 7y ago
  200k is lower middle class in sf
billions 7y ago
Always felt homeless photo diaries could be funded
- TylerE 7y ago
  Why? There is overwhelming evidence that homeless is primarily a mental health problem, not a financial one.
  - toasterlovin 7y ago
    Just clarifying for the inevitable comments you'll get that you're referring to visible homelessness, living on the street, etc., right? Not people who just lost a job and can't make rent?
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    > There is overwhelming evidence that homeless is primarily a mental health problem, not a financial one. https://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic-homelessness-by-91-percent-heres-how https://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chroni... > As of 2015, the state can just about declare victory: The population of chronically homeless people has dropped by 91 percent. This by approaching housing access/payment before anything like mental health services. Unfortunately, after over a decade, funding was withdrawn... and the homeless population spiked again.
    - TylerE 7y ago
      But that's giving housing, often with counseling attached, not money.
      - ceejayoz 7y ago
        They're subsidizing their housing. With money.
  - asdkhadsj 7y ago
    I'd say it's still a financial one, though highly complex. Not financial in the sense of "they're broke and homeless", but financial in the sense of America has terrible healthcare and within that terrible healthcare, mental healthcare is the bottom of the pile. And that's just financially - culturally we don't help each other seek mental health help either. I imagine it's terribly complex, so I don't mean to simplify. I just have had the nagging feeling lately that we shouldn't have any homeless. It doesn't seem like a useful state of being. If you're mentally healthy but don't want to live a traditional life (job/etc), I'm not sure we should allow you to live under a bridge - go live in the woods, there's plenty left. I just can't see another way to look at the homeless problem. It just seems that predominately people on the streets are suffering physically and mentally, and we're doing nothing.
40acres 7y ago
This is peak #LateStakeCapitalism, no fault to GoFundMe but these campaigns are such like something out of a YA dystopian novel. Slowly but surely I do believe American's are becoming more comfortable with the idea of free healthcare, in whatever form that comes in.
- err4nt 7y ago
  There isn't really such thing as free healthcare as long as staff need education and training, doctors have to be paid, hospitals need to be administrated, and treatments have material costs, etc. If it's being paid for by the taxpayer, it's not coming at no cost to them, they're paying for it in a pretty direct way.
  - silversconfused 7y ago
    I wonder if it would cost as much as the F35 program. I'd rather pay for a junkie's health care than a token national alliance tech project jet that no one needs.
    - harryh 7y ago
      Estimates for the cost of the F35 program vary widely, but a decent guess is 1-1.5 trillion over 50 years or 20 to 30 billion a year. The US currently spends ~3.5 trillion per year on health care. So yes, taxpayer funded health care would cost as much as the F35 program. In fact, quite a bit more. Perhaps 150x more per year.
      - supergauntlet 7y ago
        Yes, but we're already paying that and we're spending more than everyone else. [1] Universal healthcare isn't just morally justified, it's also financially justified. The only justifications for our insane system are regulatory capture or sadism. 1. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#item-relative-size-wealth-u-s-spends-disproportionate-amount-health https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-...
avgDev 7y ago
I am upset that any individual needs a GoFundMe page to get money for a treatment. However, I also know many people who simply make terrible life decisions such as lack of insurance, buy luxury cars/homes and generally live beyond their means. Then, when shit hits the fan they own nothing and have to rely on assistance. I would much rather have the government take the money from everyone then use it to fund healthcare. Most average people are not smart about money. Also, I recently donated to a family member, even though the treatment she is receiving is in my opinion snake oil. There is 0 peer reviewed studies. I still have mixed feelings about it. I researched what other people experienced with the treatment and results were mostly negative. They sell hope. I too have a chronic condition, and there are doctors who offer magic solutions for large sums of money. There is a doctor who claims he had the condition and treated himself. Then weeks later his website went up and he now offers the treatment for a tiny sum of like $13k. Desperate people will pay that money for having hope. It is sad imo. In general regular doctors will be blunt and honest. Doctor needs to tell you that if there is no hope there is no hope and how much time you have or what you can expect. In the practices that operate in grey areas and provide treatments which are not backed up by science people are getting scammed. I have been to one of those places with a family member...everywhere you look they have quotes about hope and not giving up but then when it comes time to leave you are responsible for $3000 for a visit, of course no insurance will cover it. Makes me disgusted, as that money would be better spent trying to adapt to your new condition if possible. I too had a hard time coping with my condition and honestly the US social safety net is pure garbage. Disability takes two fucking years to get a decision, and you will most likely need a lawyer. You could not even get healthcare before obamacare or pre-existing condition would not be covered. I lost a job and had to pay $600 for cobra insurance. Honestly, just thinking what I had to go through makes me want to go back to Europe. Edit: Apologies that this turned into a rant.
- bluedino 7y ago
  One of the bars I go to, every other month or so seems to have a fundraiser for a regular at the bar. I almost never donate unless I'm there the day of the fundraiser, or there's food involved. $10 spagetti dinner for instance. I understand this person needs help. But in almost every case, I know this person. I know how much $$$ they spend on acohol a week. I know how they got fired from their job for not showing up. I know they blew their tax return in a week. I'm not a cold hearted person but I don't understand why others have to bail them out.
sharkweek 7y ago
I wrote about this on here once before, but for a while I was working on a short story about a fictional dystopia in which crowdfunded healthcare devolves into a televised game show where people pitch their sob story to viewers. Whomever ends up with the most votes (a la The Voice), moves onto the next round, until finally one person is crowned the winner and has all of their needs taken care of. What was supposed to be a silly story turned super cynical and depressing, so I stopped working on it. When I last talked about it, someone pointed out that this was already a thing, back in the 1950s, called "Queen for a Day" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_for_a_Day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_for_a_Day Each contestant was asked to talk about the recent financial and emotional hard times she had been through. The interview would climax with Bailey asking the contestant what she needed most and why she wanted to win the title of Queen for a Day. Often the request was for medical care or therapeutic equipment to help a chronically ill child, or might be for a hearing aid, a new washing machine, or a refrigerator. Many women broke down sobbing as they described their plights.
- ehsankia 7y ago
  Sounds like a perfect pitch for a Black Mirror episode. Although "Fifteen Million Merits" gets kinda close.
  - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
    I'd agree if we were talking BlackMirror S1-S4... If it was S5, healthcare would just be paid for after the tiniest bit of struggle and everyone would live happily ever after, the end.
  - bschne 7y ago
    I think "Nosedive" goes into similar territory and might even be the better fit, since success in this kind of show and GoFundMe campaigns could be considered a proxy for popularity and/or "good" presentation.
- leovander 7y ago
  I remember a house in Orange County got done up in the first season of Extreme Makeover: Home Edition but they definitely pivoted towards families with greater needs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_Makeover:_Home_Edition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_Makeover:_Home_Edition
willwagner 7y ago
Having worked for a competitor that was later acquired by GoFundMe, the reality we faced was that we could determine pretty quickly whether a fundraiser was going to be successful within 48hrs or so. While we spent a lot of time developing tools to help people setup a good fundraiser which would increase their chances, for the most part, it just came down to their extended social network. Most people came to our service directly to give to a specific fundraiser (as opposed to coming to our site to find a fundraiser to give) and while we did things like "now that you gave here, check out this" type features, the results were somewhat lackluster. If I were to start a compassionate crowdfunding site today, I'd try to build it in such a way that it could be embedded into niche communities that are both to gather content, support, and fundraising. The whole experience is that it was fantastic to work with people really dedicated to the mission and feeling like you are making a difference. On the other hand, it's hard also not to change your mind on how healthcare is viewed in the US, that the majority of Americans are one car transmission away from a downward spiral into poverty, and while I appreciate GoFundMe and other compassionate crowdfunding sites, a high tech only, private enterprise solution is not always the best way to solve humanities problems. Coming from a die hard capitalist, that's saying something.
hugi 7y ago
As an Icelander, I'm glad I'm not American. Your values and health care are extremely fucked up.
- elwesties 7y ago
  This comment might be generalised to "I live in a functional country, I'm gland im not American"... I agree f-that
  - benatkin 7y ago
    No country with a population more than half the size of the US has its shit together.
    - onion2k 7y ago
      So... large countries should be broken up?
      - benatkin 7y ago
        No, but we shouldn't assume that solutions that work in small countries are going to work for large countries. In particular, I don't expect that the 5th percentile standard of living is going to be as high in large countries as it is in wealthy small countries. We should be looking to solve problems in our own ways instead of naively trying to imitate the way that small wealthy countries work.
      - magduf 7y ago
        He's right, I have to admit: every country with a population more than ~175M is pretty f-ed up somehow if you think about it. It really makes me wonder if there's an actual scaling problem here. Just look at how much trouble large corporations have with inefficiency. Maybe humans just aren't capable yet of making extremely large organizations work well.
- refurb 7y ago
  As a foreign worker, I'm glad I'm not in Iceland? https://grapevine.is/news/2018/10/03/thousands-of-foreign-workers-in-iceland-exploited-indicating-systemic-problems/ https://grapevine.is/news/2018/10/03/thousands-of-foreign-wo...
JudgeWapner 7y ago
I wonder what would happen if you could preemptively donate onto a pool that would guarantee you first place in line should you ever need to pay for an emergency medical expense? Yes this is almost the same as insurance, just without the middle man: $100 upfront buys you 2 years of protection up to $50k for emergency issues. I would go for it. The major issue I see are the grey area in what constitutes an emergency, as well as the "hidden menu" as someone here calls it. That if you don't try to negotiate, you are throwing away massive amounts by paying sticker price. Perhaps another approach is to buy "attorney insurance" that buys you an expert negotiator (and legal representation) should you ever need to fight the hospital over one of these ordeals.
- JamesBarney 7y ago
  The biggest issue is death spirals. Healthier people will drop out of the market increasing costs, causing the almost healthy people to drop out, increasing costs, until no one is left.
- ThrustVectoring 7y ago
  The problem is that if you don't have an insurance company for the hospital to attempt to gouge, all you're going to get is the bare minimum required to stabilize you and push you out of the ER. And if you do have insurance, you just need to keep enough bankruptcy-seizable assets to fill your out-of-pocket maximum and then play hardball over any excess that they attempt to charge you. Pay your OOP max, then cordially invite everyone who bills you to either work it out with the insurance company/regulator/mediatory or go pound sand because you're judgement proof.
- mikeash 7y ago
  I don’t see how that would get rid of the middleman. You’d still need some entity to hold on to the money, evaluate claims, and pay them. This is just a specialized kind of insurance.
Rotten194 7y ago
One thing this article didn't mention is how crowdfunding also exacerbates existing inequalities: for example, racial biases [1]. [1] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2837042 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2837042
sysbin 7y ago
I’m a visible transgender woman and meaning I don’t pass as a woman aesthetically. I’ve spent several years fighting the healthcare system & insurance provider but no prevail. I can see a transgender woman in Toronto managed to get funding in a few days using GoFundMe. She looks gorgeous in her picture and I’m surprised she doesn’t pass. I’m not sure how I feel about it, somewhat happy for her and frustrated personally. Seems like everything is painfully pointless when it comes to decency in society. Everything is a battle to keep the poor close to suicide it feels like.
- qwsxyh 7y ago
  I suspect you won't get a good response posting this on HN.
  - sysbin 7y ago
    IDK, a lot of people on HN seem to understand from comments I've read, that the healthcare & insurance system are needed to be overhauled. The GoFundMe did help a woman in great pain of life being too challenging to finance her surgeries and when every other system designed to help is denying the treatments that should be medically necessary. I could even say the healthcare & insurance system are currently designed for having a person live a hellish life. They don't care even if a person has a letter from a doctor saying the surgeries are medically necessary from my experience. It would be nice if people that downvote actually express why. HN used to be that way several years ago. I enjoyed learning who I'm dealing with when it comes to people against my insight in life; as I think anybody does.

124 points by longdefeat 7y ago

Whenever I see these I tend to think that the people who have the best story will get the most money and not the ones who need it. It's pretty much a market for self-promoters and scammers, not necessarily people who need help. I also believe that in a civilized, developed, wealthy country this should not be necessary.

luckylion 7y ago
> I also believe that in a civilized, developed, wealthy country this should not be necessary. This I generally agree with, though we will probably disagree on the extent and how much it should cover, what limitations it should put on your behavior etc. > It's pretty much a market for self-promoters and scammers, not necessarily people who need help. This, I feel, just describes reality. The squeaky wheel gets the oil, those that ask for help the most, cry the loudest, demand support the most aggressive etc get most of it, not necessarily (and imho rarely) those that need it the most.

noncoml 7y ago

I have an acquaintance who is working in a top Bay Area tech company with a total compensation of close to $200k. Her parents visited her and sadly her Dad had a cardiac episode and had to be taken to ER. They stabilized him and thankfully he managed to go back to his home country and get proper treatment. The ER bill was about $50k and she decided that the best way to pay it was by creating a GoFundMe campaign before she even tried to negotiate with the hospital or fight it with the insurance. She managed to raise $15k. After seeing that I am reluctant to donate any money to GoFundMe campaigns.

xenospn 7y ago
Most people visiting the US have travel insurance which can cover most or all related costs for about $1/day.
- noncoml 7y ago
  Yes. But you usually have to fight it to get it. They will very often try to play the “pre-existing condition” card, as they did in this case.
  - bluescrn 7y ago
    Which is the fundamental problem with private healthcare. Fine if you win the genetic lottery. Not so much if you’re born with pre-existing conditions.
    - justrudd 7y ago
      If only it was just genetics. I broke my right leg (femur) when I was 4 years old. After it healed, I never had a single problem with it. Played basketball, baseball, and I still lift weights today. I'm not in great shape, but probably better than average. My right knee started giving me problems. Meniscus tear. Didn't need a surgical solution just PT. Insurance denied paying for my PT because of "strain on the ligaments caused by prior break to femur". 39 years later? Maybe. But to deny PT sessions over that? That's stretching it.
  - xenospn 7y ago
    You don't. Your insurance company back home will fight with the US provider.
- altmind 7y ago
  Moreover, when on J1 visa you can get qualifying insurance for 30$/yr. It seems that such insurances may not cover long disability - you may need to go to your home country for a serious treatment.
- StreamBright 7y ago
  Not at all. A good insurance that gets you actually covered for more than tipping over in your shoelace is much more. 1 month: https://ibb.co/fnq4d1v https://ibb.co/fnq4d1v Details: https://ibb.co/PTrSFHx https://ibb.co/PTrSFHx https://ibb.co/cvyPvjW https://ibb.co/cvyPvjW
bluedino 7y ago
Can a medical bill follow you back to your home country?
- nradov 7y ago
  Of course. It's no different than any other debt. In theory the provider can obtain a judgment against the patient and then ask the home country's court system to enforce it. But in practice this is so expensive, uncertain, and time consuming that most creditors will just write it off as bad debt.
- dougmwne 7y ago
  I recently read about people with US student loan debt escaping from it by going abroad where their credit history wouldn't follow them and the loan companies would't be able to get wage garnishments. It's at least possible that this woman's father had no real incentive to pay the bill, making the GoFundMe triply redundant.
  - retiredcoder 7y ago
    So, I cannot speak how easy/hard is to collect debt abroad but I do know that it is possible for prospective employers to query the credit history. I have recently applied for a job in the finance industry in Denmark, the institution did poke into my American financial life. That also happened when I worked for banks the UK and Wall Street.
superfrank 7y ago
Maybe I'm just being dumb, but I don't really understand why that makes you reluctant to donate. It's not like your friend is trying to scam you or anything. That money is actually going to a bill that they are required to pay. Most people I talk to don't even know they can negotiate hospital bills. Seems weird to act like your friend or GoFundMe is the villain here, when the issue is really a healthcare system that has a "secret menu".
- reallydontask 7y ago
  isn't the issue the fact that said friend could afford to pay the bill? This is not to detract from your comment about the system being broken
- noncoml 7y ago
  I am not so sure. When she has the money to pay for it, but instead chooses to portrait like she doesn't and asks others to pay for it, I think it's at least immoral. It goes without saying that the healthcare system is completely broken, but that doesn't justify above behavior.
  - bbarn 7y ago
    200K in the bay area is not exactly wealthy. It's a solid middle to upper-middle class wage. Taking a 50K hit for something you did nothing to deserve, just because you love your parent is stupid. I would hate it if my daughter tried to do that for me.
    - imgabe 7y ago
      What did their friends and acquaintances do to deserve the bill?
      - warent 7y ago
        Sorry but this sounds a little bit backward to me. Helping a friend in need or being altruistic is never a punishment. It's like refusing to donate money to some cause because what did I do to deserve that? Really an odd statement.
davidw 7y ago
I sometimes give to them, but I also make a donation to politicians or groups fighting for an actual fix for the health care system in this country.
bazooka_penguin 7y ago
A donation isnt an obligation. If you're willing give then by all means do so, if not then it's not a big deal and if your friend gives you trouble for it then tell her off. I see your discomfort with her making a GoFundMe the same as you view her not trying to negotiate the price down. When you're comfortable setting boundaries a lot of the discomfort in life goes away and things like trying to negotiate with someone or being uncomfortable with friends looking for (perhaps unnecessary) help on a bill become things you can handle
maxxxxx 7y ago
"The ER bill was about $50k and she decided that the best way to pay it was by creating a GoFundMe campaign before she even tried to negotiate with the hospital or fight it with the insurance. " at a minimum she should have tried to deal with the insurance and the hospital first. She makes 200k. There are other people who are much more deserving of help.
- superfrank 7y ago
  Donations aren't a zero sum game. If she's soliciting her social network, odds are most of these donations aren't being diverted from other GoFundMes. Most of the money donated would probably be spent in other ways if the campaign didn't exist.
  - maxxxxx 7y ago
    Personally I have seen a pattern where people who are making more money are less reluctant to ask for money versus people who really don’t have money. They often seem to suffer in silence. I have now seen several occasions where people who are making very good money are hitting others up for money for health care or weddings. It leaves a bad taste with me. From a certain income you should take care of yourself.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ikiris 7y ago
What does what she make have to do with a bill for her parents?
tonymet 7y ago
200k is lower middle class in sf

billions 7y ago

Always felt homeless photo diaries could be funded

TylerE 7y ago
Why? There is overwhelming evidence that homeless is primarily a mental health problem, not a financial one.
- toasterlovin 7y ago
  Just clarifying for the inevitable comments you'll get that you're referring to visible homelessness, living on the street, etc., right? Not people who just lost a job and can't make rent?
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  > There is overwhelming evidence that homeless is primarily a mental health problem, not a financial one. https://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic-homelessness-by-91-percent-heres-how https://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chroni... > As of 2015, the state can just about declare victory: The population of chronically homeless people has dropped by 91 percent. This by approaching housing access/payment before anything like mental health services. Unfortunately, after over a decade, funding was withdrawn... and the homeless population spiked again.
  - TylerE 7y ago
    But that's giving housing, often with counseling attached, not money.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      They're subsidizing their housing. With money.
- asdkhadsj 7y ago
  I'd say it's still a financial one, though highly complex. Not financial in the sense of "they're broke and homeless", but financial in the sense of America has terrible healthcare and within that terrible healthcare, mental healthcare is the bottom of the pile. And that's just financially - culturally we don't help each other seek mental health help either. I imagine it's terribly complex, so I don't mean to simplify. I just have had the nagging feeling lately that we shouldn't have any homeless. It doesn't seem like a useful state of being. If you're mentally healthy but don't want to live a traditional life (job/etc), I'm not sure we should allow you to live under a bridge - go live in the woods, there's plenty left. I just can't see another way to look at the homeless problem. It just seems that predominately people on the streets are suffering physically and mentally, and we're doing nothing.

40acres 7y ago

This is peak #LateStakeCapitalism, no fault to GoFundMe but these campaigns are such like something out of a YA dystopian novel. Slowly but surely I do believe American's are becoming more comfortable with the idea of free healthcare, in whatever form that comes in.

err4nt 7y ago
There isn't really such thing as free healthcare as long as staff need education and training, doctors have to be paid, hospitals need to be administrated, and treatments have material costs, etc. If it's being paid for by the taxpayer, it's not coming at no cost to them, they're paying for it in a pretty direct way.
- silversconfused 7y ago
  I wonder if it would cost as much as the F35 program. I'd rather pay for a junkie's health care than a token national alliance tech project jet that no one needs.
  - harryh 7y ago
    Estimates for the cost of the F35 program vary widely, but a decent guess is 1-1.5 trillion over 50 years or 20 to 30 billion a year. The US currently spends ~3.5 trillion per year on health care. So yes, taxpayer funded health care would cost as much as the F35 program. In fact, quite a bit more. Perhaps 150x more per year.
    - supergauntlet 7y ago
      Yes, but we're already paying that and we're spending more than everyone else. [1] Universal healthcare isn't just morally justified, it's also financially justified. The only justifications for our insane system are regulatory capture or sadism. 1. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#item-relative-size-wealth-u-s-spends-disproportionate-amount-health https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-...

avgDev 7y ago

I am upset that any individual needs a GoFundMe page to get money for a treatment. However, I also know many people who simply make terrible life decisions such as lack of insurance, buy luxury cars/homes and generally live beyond their means. Then, when shit hits the fan they own nothing and have to rely on assistance. I would much rather have the government take the money from everyone then use it to fund healthcare. Most average people are not smart about money. Also, I recently donated to a family member, even though the treatment she is receiving is in my opinion snake oil. There is 0 peer reviewed studies. I still have mixed feelings about it. I researched what other people experienced with the treatment and results were mostly negative. They sell hope. I too have a chronic condition, and there are doctors who offer magic solutions for large sums of money. There is a doctor who claims he had the condition and treated himself. Then weeks later his website went up and he now offers the treatment for a tiny sum of like $13k. Desperate people will pay that money for having hope. It is sad imo. In general regular doctors will be blunt and honest. Doctor needs to tell you that if there is no hope there is no hope and how much time you have or what you can expect. In the practices that operate in grey areas and provide treatments which are not backed up by science people are getting scammed. I have been to one of those places with a family member...everywhere you look they have quotes about hope and not giving up but then when it comes time to leave you are responsible for $3000 for a visit, of course no insurance will cover it. Makes me disgusted, as that money would be better spent trying to adapt to your new condition if possible. I too had a hard time coping with my condition and honestly the US social safety net is pure garbage. Disability takes two fucking years to get a decision, and you will most likely need a lawyer. You could not even get healthcare before obamacare or pre-existing condition would not be covered. I lost a job and had to pay $600 for cobra insurance. Honestly, just thinking what I had to go through makes me want to go back to Europe. Edit: Apologies that this turned into a rant.

bluedino 7y ago
One of the bars I go to, every other month or so seems to have a fundraiser for a regular at the bar. I almost never donate unless I'm there the day of the fundraiser, or there's food involved. $10 spagetti dinner for instance. I understand this person needs help. But in almost every case, I know this person. I know how much $$$ they spend on acohol a week. I know how they got fired from their job for not showing up. I know they blew their tax return in a week. I'm not a cold hearted person but I don't understand why others have to bail them out.

sharkweek 7y ago

I wrote about this on here once before, but for a while I was working on a short story about a fictional dystopia in which crowdfunded healthcare devolves into a televised game show where people pitch their sob story to viewers. Whomever ends up with the most votes (a la The Voice), moves onto the next round, until finally one person is crowned the winner and has all of their needs taken care of. What was supposed to be a silly story turned super cynical and depressing, so I stopped working on it. When I last talked about it, someone pointed out that this was already a thing, back in the 1950s, called "Queen for a Day" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_for_a_Day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_for_a_Day Each contestant was asked to talk about the recent financial and emotional hard times she had been through. The interview would climax with Bailey asking the contestant what she needed most and why she wanted to win the title of Queen for a Day. Often the request was for medical care or therapeutic equipment to help a chronically ill child, or might be for a hearing aid, a new washing machine, or a refrigerator. Many women broke down sobbing as they described their plights.

ehsankia 7y ago
Sounds like a perfect pitch for a Black Mirror episode. Although "Fifteen Million Merits" gets kinda close.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  I'd agree if we were talking BlackMirror S1-S4... If it was S5, healthcare would just be paid for after the tiniest bit of struggle and everyone would live happily ever after, the end.
- bschne 7y ago
  I think "Nosedive" goes into similar territory and might even be the better fit, since success in this kind of show and GoFundMe campaigns could be considered a proxy for popularity and/or "good" presentation.
leovander 7y ago
I remember a house in Orange County got done up in the first season of Extreme Makeover: Home Edition but they definitely pivoted towards families with greater needs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_Makeover:_Home_Edition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_Makeover:_Home_Edition

willwagner 7y ago

Having worked for a competitor that was later acquired by GoFundMe, the reality we faced was that we could determine pretty quickly whether a fundraiser was going to be successful within 48hrs or so. While we spent a lot of time developing tools to help people setup a good fundraiser which would increase their chances, for the most part, it just came down to their extended social network. Most people came to our service directly to give to a specific fundraiser (as opposed to coming to our site to find a fundraiser to give) and while we did things like "now that you gave here, check out this" type features, the results were somewhat lackluster. If I were to start a compassionate crowdfunding site today, I'd try to build it in such a way that it could be embedded into niche communities that are both to gather content, support, and fundraising. The whole experience is that it was fantastic to work with people really dedicated to the mission and feeling like you are making a difference. On the other hand, it's hard also not to change your mind on how healthcare is viewed in the US, that the majority of Americans are one car transmission away from a downward spiral into poverty, and while I appreciate GoFundMe and other compassionate crowdfunding sites, a high tech only, private enterprise solution is not always the best way to solve humanities problems. Coming from a die hard capitalist, that's saying something.

hugi 7y ago

As an Icelander, I'm glad I'm not American. Your values and health care are extremely fucked up.

elwesties 7y ago
This comment might be generalised to "I live in a functional country, I'm gland im not American"... I agree f-that
- benatkin 7y ago
  No country with a population more than half the size of the US has its shit together.
  - onion2k 7y ago
    So... large countries should be broken up?
    - benatkin 7y ago
      No, but we shouldn't assume that solutions that work in small countries are going to work for large countries. In particular, I don't expect that the 5th percentile standard of living is going to be as high in large countries as it is in wealthy small countries. We should be looking to solve problems in our own ways instead of naively trying to imitate the way that small wealthy countries work.
    - magduf 7y ago
      He's right, I have to admit: every country with a population more than ~175M is pretty f-ed up somehow if you think about it. It really makes me wonder if there's an actual scaling problem here. Just look at how much trouble large corporations have with inefficiency. Maybe humans just aren't capable yet of making extremely large organizations work well.
refurb 7y ago
As a foreign worker, I'm glad I'm not in Iceland? https://grapevine.is/news/2018/10/03/thousands-of-foreign-workers-in-iceland-exploited-indicating-systemic-problems/ https://grapevine.is/news/2018/10/03/thousands-of-foreign-wo...

JudgeWapner 7y ago

I wonder what would happen if you could preemptively donate onto a pool that would guarantee you first place in line should you ever need to pay for an emergency medical expense? Yes this is almost the same as insurance, just without the middle man: $100 upfront buys you 2 years of protection up to $50k for emergency issues. I would go for it. The major issue I see are the grey area in what constitutes an emergency, as well as the "hidden menu" as someone here calls it. That if you don't try to negotiate, you are throwing away massive amounts by paying sticker price. Perhaps another approach is to buy "attorney insurance" that buys you an expert negotiator (and legal representation) should you ever need to fight the hospital over one of these ordeals.

JamesBarney 7y ago
The biggest issue is death spirals. Healthier people will drop out of the market increasing costs, causing the almost healthy people to drop out, increasing costs, until no one is left.
ThrustVectoring 7y ago
The problem is that if you don't have an insurance company for the hospital to attempt to gouge, all you're going to get is the bare minimum required to stabilize you and push you out of the ER. And if you do have insurance, you just need to keep enough bankruptcy-seizable assets to fill your out-of-pocket maximum and then play hardball over any excess that they attempt to charge you. Pay your OOP max, then cordially invite everyone who bills you to either work it out with the insurance company/regulator/mediatory or go pound sand because you're judgement proof.
mikeash 7y ago
I don’t see how that would get rid of the middleman. You’d still need some entity to hold on to the money, evaluate claims, and pay them. This is just a specialized kind of insurance.

Rotten194 7y ago

One thing this article didn't mention is how crowdfunding also exacerbates existing inequalities: for example, racial biases [1]. [1] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2837042 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2837042

sysbin 7y ago

I’m a visible transgender woman and meaning I don’t pass as a woman aesthetically. I’ve spent several years fighting the healthcare system & insurance provider but no prevail. I can see a transgender woman in Toronto managed to get funding in a few days using GoFundMe. She looks gorgeous in her picture and I’m surprised she doesn’t pass. I’m not sure how I feel about it, somewhat happy for her and frustrated personally. Seems like everything is painfully pointless when it comes to decency in society. Everything is a battle to keep the poor close to suicide it feels like.

qwsxyh 7y ago
I suspect you won't get a good response posting this on HN.
- sysbin 7y ago
  IDK, a lot of people on HN seem to understand from comments I've read, that the healthcare & insurance system are needed to be overhauled. The GoFundMe did help a woman in great pain of life being too challenging to finance her surgeries and when every other system designed to help is denying the treatments that should be medically necessary. I could even say the healthcare & insurance system are currently designed for having a person live a hellish life. They don't care even if a person has a letter from a doctor saying the surgeries are medically necessary from my experience. It would be nice if people that downvote actually express why. HN used to be that way several years ago. I enjoyed learning who I'm dealing with when it comes to people against my insight in life; as I think anybody does.