6 ms·

Brain imaging study reveals signs of Parkinson’s decades before symptoms appear

150 points by melling 7y ago

xvilka 7y ago
I wonder what is the minimum resolution required, it really matters how widespread those checks can be right now, after they are adopted by the doctors.
- lostlogin 7y ago
  Does it? You can manage symptoms but there isn’t much more than that available I don’t think?
  - Amygaz 7y ago
    Managing symptoms, like you call it, also happens to slow down the progression. And right now it’s a good option to consider. The neurological disorders are very hot and tends topics in Academia and Pharma, the pace of the discovery and trials is “mind blowing”, compared with a decade ago. Edit: typos
pbhjpbhj 7y ago
I'm not sure I'd want to know, but I'm falling on the side of not. I've a family member with [brain] health issues and the idea that I'm going to end up that way is absolutely consuming me at the moment. If there's treatment then that's great; without treatment then I think you're better not knowing. Ignorance is bliss, as they say.
- xattt 7y ago
  Would the aspect of knowing guide you to get your affairs in order and be able to enjoy life to the fullest?
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    I think that works in the last few years, but Parkinsons is quite slowly degenerative I feel, so sufferers experience obvious symptoms a long time before it kills them(?). Knowing for a decade in advance ... that's too soon to "get your affairs in order" and I can't see it would affect your ideology more than realising you'll die at some point in the future any way ...?
    - adrianN 7y ago
      I some countries you can chose yourself when to end your suffering. I'd definitely want to know as early as possible so that I can arrange something like that.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - athenot 7y ago
      > Knowing for a decade in advance ... that's too soon to "get your affairs in order" It's never too soon to "get your affairs in order". What if you have a car accident later today and end up in a paralyzed state? I don't mean to be grim, but this is what Advance Directives are for (also known as a Living Will). As long as you are well, you probably should re-evaluate this every 10 years. If you're in your 30's, you probably want as much as possible done to bring you back if something bad happens. But if you're in your 50s or 70s, you may prefer a different trade-off. By default, the healthcare providers must do everything they can to treat you but undergoing invasive (and risky) procedures may not be worth it and leave you with a worse quality of life. Example: you fall hard and fracture your hip. If you're in your 30s, you probably want to get surgery and get put back together. Your body is strong, it is likely to recover well. But that same problem in your 80s might be better handled with pain medication and other ways to maintain a quality of life. At the same time, if the accident is something like getting paralyzed, you may have various preferences as to how long or how much effort you want to be put into maintaining you (eg. if you are in a vegetative state). Here's a more detailed guide and pointers to prepare your own documents: https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/living-wills/art-20046303 https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health...
- Amygaz 7y ago
  You really need to watch “Still Alice” starring Julianne Moore.
i4t 7y ago
This is important, because (future) treatments will be most effective before the brain has been damaged beyond repair.
knbknb 7y ago
In humans (this time, not in mice )
SpeakMouthWords 7y ago
The analogy I've heard for early detection of neurodegeneration is that it turns the condition from terminal to chronic. This is similar to how late detection of HIV usually means AIDS and death, now it means a manageable condition, but life. Interestingly, there are a companies working on this from different angles. Here's one doing it with voice analysis: https://auralanalytics.com/ https://auralanalytics.com/
- boltzmannbrain 7y ago
  > different angles Yes, and your example of AuralAnalytics points out the two classes of angles: 1. Different modalities -- brain imaging, voice, eye movements, memory exams, etc* 2. Different diseases -- there are many similarities in underlying processes of neurodegen diseases, but there are many complexities that makes each one a unique, difficult to understand pathophysiology *Etc is the exciting area, w/ startups still in stealth
- bbmario 7y ago
  How do I get one of these? Do I go to my doctor and tell him: Hey, grandfather had Parkinson’s so I want to double-check myself?
  - dlanouette 7y ago
    You would go to a neurologist. Preferably one that specializes in Parkinson's disease.
000dry 7y ago
It is also possible to smell Parkinson's before its onset: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2019/03/21/parkinsons-disease-super-smeller-joy-milne/#.XRIZsOtKjOQ http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2019/03/21/parkinsons...
- npongratz 7y ago
  Indeed, as mentioned in the article: "A large array of promising diagnostic methods have been floated in recent years, from blood and eye tests, to a remarkable recent study suggesting a smell secreted by the skin could signal the presence of the disease."
- treis 7y ago
  >reminiscent of how a beaver smells I think they drastically overestimate how many people know what a beaver smells like.
joezydeco 7y ago
My wife and I have been shopping for long-term care insurance. We're not in the zone where it's completely necessary yet, but we wanted to be in a policy before our health starts to degrade. Even the agents we've talked to so far think we're early, but not too early. But I fear that tests like this will make LTC insurance very hard or even impossible to get for some people. Perhaps that's fair, if the test can confirm with 100% accuracy that you'll be a victim of a degenerative disease. But what if it's not 100% accurate?
- asdkhadsj 7y ago
  And thus, the problem with for profit insurance. I know nothing of economics (so I'm not making claims how insurance should be), but it's a shame that we have to fear insurers knowing that we'll be sick and rejecting our quality of life. As a "modern" civilization I just don't think you should be concerned with for-profit entities deciding you'll cost too much and denying your basic quality of life.
  - luxuryballs 7y ago
    Even if it’s not for profit and it’s just a sharing pool your share would need to be way higher if we knew that you would be taking a big chunk of everyone’s contributions no?
    - jnty 7y ago
      No - the whole point of pooling would surely be that you don't pay for your own misfortune (or profit from good fortune.) It really just becomes a poorly implemented version of general taxation though. Funding health and social care from taxation is of course not a new idea...
      - luxuryballs 7y ago
        Yeah but if you don’t balance it against the risk factors you blow out your pool... similar to why taxation wouldn’t be sustainable, you’d end up with a significant portion of the population eating the pool without contributing, and a very small minority being forced to cover them, effectively farming “consumer humans” and thus an ever growing tax rate.
namenotrequired 7y ago
Noob question, how likely is this to generalize to cases of Parkinson’s not caused by this rare mutation?

150 points by melling 7y ago

I wonder what is the minimum resolution required, it really matters how widespread those checks can be right now, after they are adopted by the doctors.

lostlogin 7y ago
Does it? You can manage symptoms but there isn’t much more than that available I don’t think?
- Amygaz 7y ago
  Managing symptoms, like you call it, also happens to slow down the progression. And right now it’s a good option to consider. The neurological disorders are very hot and tends topics in Academia and Pharma, the pace of the discovery and trials is “mind blowing”, compared with a decade ago. Edit: typos

pbhjpbhj 7y ago

I'm not sure I'd want to know, but I'm falling on the side of not. I've a family member with [brain] health issues and the idea that I'm going to end up that way is absolutely consuming me at the moment. If there's treatment then that's great; without treatment then I think you're better not knowing. Ignorance is bliss, as they say.

xattt 7y ago
Would the aspect of knowing guide you to get your affairs in order and be able to enjoy life to the fullest?
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  I think that works in the last few years, but Parkinsons is quite slowly degenerative I feel, so sufferers experience obvious symptoms a long time before it kills them(?). Knowing for a decade in advance ... that's too soon to "get your affairs in order" and I can't see it would affect your ideology more than realising you'll die at some point in the future any way ...?
  - adrianN 7y ago
    I some countries you can chose yourself when to end your suffering. I'd definitely want to know as early as possible so that I can arrange something like that.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - athenot 7y ago
    > Knowing for a decade in advance ... that's too soon to "get your affairs in order" It's never too soon to "get your affairs in order". What if you have a car accident later today and end up in a paralyzed state? I don't mean to be grim, but this is what Advance Directives are for (also known as a Living Will). As long as you are well, you probably should re-evaluate this every 10 years. If you're in your 30's, you probably want as much as possible done to bring you back if something bad happens. But if you're in your 50s or 70s, you may prefer a different trade-off. By default, the healthcare providers must do everything they can to treat you but undergoing invasive (and risky) procedures may not be worth it and leave you with a worse quality of life. Example: you fall hard and fracture your hip. If you're in your 30s, you probably want to get surgery and get put back together. Your body is strong, it is likely to recover well. But that same problem in your 80s might be better handled with pain medication and other ways to maintain a quality of life. At the same time, if the accident is something like getting paralyzed, you may have various preferences as to how long or how much effort you want to be put into maintaining you (eg. if you are in a vegetative state). Here's a more detailed guide and pointers to prepare your own documents: https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/living-wills/art-20046303 https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health...
Amygaz 7y ago
You really need to watch “Still Alice” starring Julianne Moore.

i4t 7y ago

This is important, because (future) treatments will be most effective before the brain has been damaged beyond repair.

knbknb 7y ago

In humans (this time, not in mice )

SpeakMouthWords 7y ago

The analogy I've heard for early detection of neurodegeneration is that it turns the condition from terminal to chronic. This is similar to how late detection of HIV usually means AIDS and death, now it means a manageable condition, but life. Interestingly, there are a companies working on this from different angles. Here's one doing it with voice analysis: https://auralanalytics.com/ https://auralanalytics.com/

boltzmannbrain 7y ago
> different angles Yes, and your example of AuralAnalytics points out the two classes of angles: 1. Different modalities -- brain imaging, voice, eye movements, memory exams, etc* 2. Different diseases -- there are many similarities in underlying processes of neurodegen diseases, but there are many complexities that makes each one a unique, difficult to understand pathophysiology *Etc is the exciting area, w/ startups still in stealth
bbmario 7y ago
How do I get one of these? Do I go to my doctor and tell him: Hey, grandfather had Parkinson’s so I want to double-check myself?
- dlanouette 7y ago
  You would go to a neurologist. Preferably one that specializes in Parkinson's disease.

000dry 7y ago

It is also possible to smell Parkinson's before its onset: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2019/03/21/parkinsons-disease-super-smeller-joy-milne/#.XRIZsOtKjOQ http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2019/03/21/parkinsons...

npongratz 7y ago
Indeed, as mentioned in the article: "A large array of promising diagnostic methods have been floated in recent years, from blood and eye tests, to a remarkable recent study suggesting a smell secreted by the skin could signal the presence of the disease."
treis 7y ago
>reminiscent of how a beaver smells I think they drastically overestimate how many people know what a beaver smells like.

joezydeco 7y ago

My wife and I have been shopping for long-term care insurance. We're not in the zone where it's completely necessary yet, but we wanted to be in a policy before our health starts to degrade. Even the agents we've talked to so far think we're early, but not too early. But I fear that tests like this will make LTC insurance very hard or even impossible to get for some people. Perhaps that's fair, if the test can confirm with 100% accuracy that you'll be a victim of a degenerative disease. But what if it's not 100% accurate?

asdkhadsj 7y ago
And thus, the problem with for profit insurance. I know nothing of economics (so I'm not making claims how insurance should be), but it's a shame that we have to fear insurers knowing that we'll be sick and rejecting our quality of life. As a "modern" civilization I just don't think you should be concerned with for-profit entities deciding you'll cost too much and denying your basic quality of life.
- luxuryballs 7y ago
  Even if it’s not for profit and it’s just a sharing pool your share would need to be way higher if we knew that you would be taking a big chunk of everyone’s contributions no?
  - jnty 7y ago
    No - the whole point of pooling would surely be that you don't pay for your own misfortune (or profit from good fortune.) It really just becomes a poorly implemented version of general taxation though. Funding health and social care from taxation is of course not a new idea...
    - luxuryballs 7y ago
      Yeah but if you don’t balance it against the risk factors you blow out your pool... similar to why taxation wouldn’t be sustainable, you’d end up with a significant portion of the population eating the pool without contributing, and a very small minority being forced to cover them, effectively farming “consumer humans” and thus an ever growing tax rate.

namenotrequired 7y ago

Noob question, how likely is this to generalize to cases of Parkinson’s not caused by this rare mutation?