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Split, Croatia. Weather is equivalent, smaller city, lots of foreigners, and a growing IT industry. For a foreigner it's also very easy to just come and live in

Split, Croatia. Weather is equivalent, smaller city, lots of foreigners, and a growing IT industry. For a foreigner it's also very easy to just come and live in Croatia, they give staying permits to anyone who comes to just live and spend money (not work) but after you find work, getting an EU blue card is a piece of cake.

tzakrajs 7y ago
What if we don't speak any language other than English? Is it difficult to live and work there as such?
- treis 7y ago
  Every cheap country (Vietnam, Nicaragua, Thailand, Bali, etc.) will have a hodge podge of backpackers, ex-pats, retirees, etc. Enough locals will speak English to support providing necessities and socialization can happen with the other ex-pats. Working there is a different story, but generally you don't want to work there since the reason they're cheap is that the people are poor. The local jobs are low paid. The trick is to be able to work remotely or more rarely as a well paid employee of a foreign company.
- matwood 7y ago
  I've been to Croatia a few times. It is very English friendly. Even a lot of the local TV was often in English. Croatia is a great place, and I highly recommend visiting.
- superpermutat0r 7y ago
  Language is not a requirement to live/work in Croatia. There's a huge expat community in Croatia, I have met many Canadians and US citizens who came here and got their job because of their great English. Yes, working as an English teacher, or translator, or any language related job is a bit boring, but for tech people there's a huge demand and English-only is perfectly fine. Food has labels in English, restaurants and everything else, because of tourism, are very English oriented. It's a great place for foreigners.
shafyy 7y ago
Sounds like a great place to work. In Turkey, it's also quite easy to get a staying permit, even if you don't plan on being emplyed by a Turkish company (e.g. if you just want to work on your startup). Just need to show that you have $500 per month you want to stay on your bank account.
- dmortin 7y ago
  Did you consider other cheaper countries like in Eastern Europe (Hungary, Slovenia, etc?)
  - shafyy 7y ago
    Yeah we looked at a couple of options, including South East Asia and South America. In the end, the fact that I spoke Turkish, had a cultural connection, the closeness to friends and family in Zurich and the great cuisine did it for us :-) To be clear, you'll have a harder time if you don't speak (or willing to learn) Turkish in Bodrum, whereas more people speak English in Istanbul.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  Which areas of Turkey are safe for non-muslims at present?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
qaq 7y ago
Montenegro might be a good alternative with 11% income tax
- rtio 7y ago
  Seems unlikely. Montenegro is for example not member of the EU. Chances are it is a better idea to 'trade up' to somewhere like Slovenia instead were you can find yourself with a low tax rate in some situations.
  - qaq 7y ago
    If you are a US citizen or a citizen of any other country that has visa free travel with EU why would you care?
    - rtio 7y ago
      The EU offers a lot of advantages in terms of labour market, services, payments etc. There are also reasons why Montenegro isn't allowed to join the EU that could be considered disadvantages. And of course if you don't care about those things there are plenty of other choices.
      - qaq 7y ago
        In Europe with same climate access to sea trivial ability to become a resident and similar tax level not that many :). Say you are US Citizen with remote position making 120K your tax bill in Montenegro is 13k. In Spain, Portugal, Greece etc you would be looking at 3x that.
- superpermutat0r 7y ago
  Tax is irrelevant if you are an employee in your own Croatian company. The paycheck is yours to choose and you can pay the company income to yourself (12% or 18% tax, depending on the amount). Yeah, you lose the social benefits of the future but have more money to save. Companies here do not mind paying to your business for services because it is cheaper for them too, and as a tech worker, all the benefits of an employer are not that important.
temptemptemp111 7y ago
What's the fastest residential fibre you can get there?
chosenbreed37 7y ago
Nice ;-)
dantillberg 7y ago
Re "weather is equivalent": I was curious, so I plugged the comparison into Weather Spark to see: [0]. Split is warmer in summer, colder in winter, a bit more humid, and moderately less sunny in the summer. It's very similar, but also a little bit different, and I find this site to be super useful in nailing down the differences. [0]: https://weatherspark.com/compare/y/80692~557~1098/Comparison-of-the-Average-Weather-in-Split-San-Francisco-and-San-Jose https://weatherspark.com/compare/y/80692~557~1098/Comparison...
rtio 7y ago
Isn't it annoying/limiting to live in a "tourist town" or maybe that is just part of the year?
- superpermutat0r 7y ago
  It's mostly August, town is small and tourists are concentrated in historic areas. Traffic is jammed but you can walk around, everything is 15 mins away.
  - rtio 7y ago
    I should have been more specific. I don't mind tourist, but when I was living in Malta for awhile it seemed like being a tourist destinations affected it negatively. Rents would be higher than expected in many attractive areas, but it would be pretty quiet off-season. And outside the attractive areas the standard of living and services would be less. I guess some of that you would figure out living there longer, but it seemed like the "bang-for-buck" was less than expected and a lot of that had to do with being a tourist destination. Would you think that would be a concern in Split?
    - superpermutat0r 7y ago
      Yeah, Split is expensive when it comes to buying stuff, but still cheaper rent than capital city Zagreb. City is really small, so all the services are here. I haven't noticed that I miss anything or that anything is too expensive. Families that want to save more go live in Solin, Stobreč or similar costal outskirts, and these are 15-20 minutes by car from city center. Roads get congested around historic core, unlike Zagreb where congestion issues are ridiculous (can take you an hour to get to where you want). According to Numbeo, I'd have to have impossible income to keep the buying power at the same level if I moved to Vienna, Berlin, or other more attractive European towns. A quality engineer earning 2-2.5k euro in Croatia has no reason to move to Berlin or Vienna if paycheck does not double. An experienced engineer earning more really needs to get insane offers to move. My SF salary was no where near the current living standards.

tzakrajs 7y ago

What if we don't speak any language other than English? Is it difficult to live and work there as such?

treis 7y ago
Every cheap country (Vietnam, Nicaragua, Thailand, Bali, etc.) will have a hodge podge of backpackers, ex-pats, retirees, etc. Enough locals will speak English to support providing necessities and socialization can happen with the other ex-pats. Working there is a different story, but generally you don't want to work there since the reason they're cheap is that the people are poor. The local jobs are low paid. The trick is to be able to work remotely or more rarely as a well paid employee of a foreign company.
matwood 7y ago
I've been to Croatia a few times. It is very English friendly. Even a lot of the local TV was often in English. Croatia is a great place, and I highly recommend visiting.
superpermutat0r 7y ago
Language is not a requirement to live/work in Croatia. There's a huge expat community in Croatia, I have met many Canadians and US citizens who came here and got their job because of their great English. Yes, working as an English teacher, or translator, or any language related job is a bit boring, but for tech people there's a huge demand and English-only is perfectly fine. Food has labels in English, restaurants and everything else, because of tourism, are very English oriented. It's a great place for foreigners.

shafyy 7y ago

Sounds like a great place to work. In Turkey, it's also quite easy to get a staying permit, even if you don't plan on being emplyed by a Turkish company (e.g. if you just want to work on your startup). Just need to show that you have $500 per month you want to stay on your bank account.

dmortin 7y ago
Did you consider other cheaper countries like in Eastern Europe (Hungary, Slovenia, etc?)
- shafyy 7y ago
  Yeah we looked at a couple of options, including South East Asia and South America. In the end, the fact that I spoke Turkish, had a cultural connection, the closeness to friends and family in Zurich and the great cuisine did it for us :-) To be clear, you'll have a harder time if you don't speak (or willing to learn) Turkish in Bodrum, whereas more people speak English in Istanbul.
pbhjpbhj 7y ago
Which areas of Turkey are safe for non-muslims at present?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

qaq 7y ago

Montenegro might be a good alternative with 11% income tax

rtio 7y ago
Seems unlikely. Montenegro is for example not member of the EU. Chances are it is a better idea to 'trade up' to somewhere like Slovenia instead were you can find yourself with a low tax rate in some situations.
- qaq 7y ago
  If you are a US citizen or a citizen of any other country that has visa free travel with EU why would you care?
  - rtio 7y ago
    The EU offers a lot of advantages in terms of labour market, services, payments etc. There are also reasons why Montenegro isn't allowed to join the EU that could be considered disadvantages. And of course if you don't care about those things there are plenty of other choices.
    - qaq 7y ago
      In Europe with same climate access to sea trivial ability to become a resident and similar tax level not that many :). Say you are US Citizen with remote position making 120K your tax bill in Montenegro is 13k. In Spain, Portugal, Greece etc you would be looking at 3x that.
superpermutat0r 7y ago
Tax is irrelevant if you are an employee in your own Croatian company. The paycheck is yours to choose and you can pay the company income to yourself (12% or 18% tax, depending on the amount). Yeah, you lose the social benefits of the future but have more money to save. Companies here do not mind paying to your business for services because it is cheaper for them too, and as a tech worker, all the benefits of an employer are not that important.

temptemptemp111 7y ago

What's the fastest residential fibre you can get there?

chosenbreed37 7y ago

Nice ;-)

dantillberg 7y ago

Re "weather is equivalent": I was curious, so I plugged the comparison into Weather Spark to see: [0]. Split is warmer in summer, colder in winter, a bit more humid, and moderately less sunny in the summer. It's very similar, but also a little bit different, and I find this site to be super useful in nailing down the differences. [0]: https://weatherspark.com/compare/y/80692~557~1098/Comparison-of-the-Average-Weather-in-Split-San-Francisco-and-San-Jose https://weatherspark.com/compare/y/80692~557~1098/Comparison...

rtio 7y ago

Isn't it annoying/limiting to live in a "tourist town" or maybe that is just part of the year?

superpermutat0r 7y ago
It's mostly August, town is small and tourists are concentrated in historic areas. Traffic is jammed but you can walk around, everything is 15 mins away.
- rtio 7y ago
  I should have been more specific. I don't mind tourist, but when I was living in Malta for awhile it seemed like being a tourist destinations affected it negatively. Rents would be higher than expected in many attractive areas, but it would be pretty quiet off-season. And outside the attractive areas the standard of living and services would be less. I guess some of that you would figure out living there longer, but it seemed like the "bang-for-buck" was less than expected and a lot of that had to do with being a tourist destination. Would you think that would be a concern in Split?
  - superpermutat0r 7y ago
    Yeah, Split is expensive when it comes to buying stuff, but still cheaper rent than capital city Zagreb. City is really small, so all the services are here. I haven't noticed that I miss anything or that anything is too expensive. Families that want to save more go live in Solin, Stobreč or similar costal outskirts, and these are 15-20 minutes by car from city center. Roads get congested around historic core, unlike Zagreb where congestion issues are ridiculous (can take you an hour to get to where you want). According to Numbeo, I'd have to have impossible income to keep the buying power at the same level if I moved to Vienna, Berlin, or other more attractive European towns. A quality engineer earning 2-2.5k euro in Croatia has no reason to move to Berlin or Vienna if paycheck does not double. An experienced engineer earning more really needs to get insane offers to move. My SF salary was no where near the current living standards.