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The Chalk Market: Where Mathematicians Go to Get the Good Stuf
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- kn0where 7y agoMaybe I’m just young, but I hate chalkboards. In college they were always way less legible than a whiteboard with a fresh marker—too little contrast.
- romwell 7y agoThe thing with chalk is: if you see a piece of chalk, you can use it. After you're done, put it down and forget it. If you see a marker... 50% chance it's dead, 25% chance it's barely alive, 15% chance it's legible from the back row, 10% chance it's fresh and usable the way you describe it. It's impossible to tell before you try. After you're done with it, you need to remember to close the cap, or find a trash can to chuck it into (and make a call if the marker kind-of-still-works-but-not-really). Seems like a small thing, but adds mental overhead. And it's a big enough overhead that a lot of people don't do it. Otherwise, how would we end up with the distribution above in the first place? Now teaching/explaining is a performance art. Doing the "wait, let me try another marker, is it better now?" dance ruins the show. That's why mathematicians prefer chalk. The subject matter is already difficult enough, there's not enough bandwidth for all of that nonsense. Have chalk, will write. End of story.
- komali2 7y agoAlso the markers are shit from a sustainability standpoint - non refillable, take up space in a landfill, as far as I know unrecyclable, manufacturing chain involving at the very least plastic, ink, and whatever makes the tip, and gets tossed seemingly on a daily basis.
- Nullabillity 7y agoThere are refillable markers.
- educationdata 7y agoVery good point, but only half the story. Marker has another problem: eraser. Most of the time the eraser is already too dirty to use.
- brianpgordon 7y agoBut a chalkboard eraser just smears the chalk around. Even with a decently clean eraser, after a few write/erase cycles you can barely see anything because there's so little contrast. Dry eraser marker goes on vivid and sharp every time, and with a high-quality whiteboard will wipe right off cleanly.
- taejo 7y agoWhen I TA'ed in Germany, every classroom had a sink, a sponge and a squeegee, so you actually cleaned the board every time instead of smearing it. It was great.
- marvin 7y ago5% of the time, it's a permanent marker.
- davemp 7y agoMost of those issues are solved by carrying a pack of markers in your bag. My biggest annoyance with dry erase is when people leave markings on for a really long time and board gets stained.
- komali2 7y agoI wish I liked them but I am psychosomatically incapable of writing on them. Even touching chalk gives me an intense negative physical reaction, let alone trying to pull the thing across a board. Just thinking about it makes my nails hurt. Fucking weird.
- opan 7y agoI think I feel similarly, but I have almost never actually used chalk.
- ska 7y agoA clean board (dark) and good chalk (bright) has very good contrast. Cheap chalk on a dirty board, not so much. The feel of writing with dense chalk is much nicer than markers, in my opinion; obviously in others as well. Some of it is just tradition too.
- NikolaNovak 7y agoMust be pretty subjective; while I can certainly see how it could be satisfying, and very much believe there is difference between cheap & quality stuff; but I've personally always found the chalkboard experience grating and "sharp", whereas a good dry marker feels "smooth", "muted" and "elegant" :-/ (as a bonus, nobody I know has screamed and covered their ears due to inadvertent scratch of whiteboard :P )
- OJFord 7y agoReally? I'm also young, but I hate whiteboards. Much lower contrast than blackboards. Pens can't go over pens for emphasis or in a second colour. Pens basically can't be seen from the back. My alma mater swapped blackboards for white while I was there, and I found the brand new whiteboards and pens far worse than the who-knows-how-old blackboards.
- Reedx 7y agoRecently saw a good video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhNUjg9X4g8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhNUjg9X4g8 Pretty amusing they were stockpiling it and some were chalk dealers on the side.
- dang 7y agoRelated: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19822164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19822164
- dredmorbius 7y agoA few other earlier instances: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9723202 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9723202 (2015) (re-posted a couple of months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19718287 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19718287) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9770017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9770017 (2015) on why the company closed And unrelated but v. cool: chalk micrography: https://twitter.com/ferrisjabr/status/1022534132415356928 https://twitter.com/ferrisjabr/status/1022534132415356928 , at HN; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17635247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17635247 From that last, Thomas Huxley, "On a Piece of Chalk": https://mathcs.clarku.edu/huxley/CE8/Chalk.html https://mathcs.clarku.edu/huxley/CE8/Chalk.html
- aapeli 7y agoI was first introduced to Hagoromo about four years ago when the word had just come out that they were closing shop. A colleague of mine was in love with it, and ordered several boxes. I managed to get two sticks of the stuff and used it sparingly for quite a long time. It really is way better than the majority of chalks. It's coated in a thin film so your hands don't get dirty and it's extremely fine making it smooth to write with. The article is a little comical about the effects of using the chalk, but due to its scarcity, I've certainly heard that some use it only for the most important theorems.
- toomanybeersies 7y agoThe Japanese seem to make really good writing instruments in general. My daily driver for writing is a Mitsubishi uni-ball eye. Only costs a few bucks and it's miles better than a 10 cent Bic. I'm not some kind of pen snob who knows all about different pens, but I know a good pen when I use one. I've found that it makes my (usually unintelligible) handwriting a lot better too. I guess it's maybe a cultural thing, I've heard that the Japanese still place a lot of emphasis on handwriting letters and notes. Meanwhile there's people in my office who haven't touched a pen in weeks.
- Wistar 7y agoI have a set of Mitsubishi Pencil Hi-Uni 10B to 10H pencils and I love them.
- learc83 7y agoI agree. I use a Kuru Toga pencil that rotates the lead to keep it from becoming wedge shaped. Definitely my favorite pencil of all time.
- galangalalgol 7y agoI listed after those for a couple years before getting a few. I found that without realizing it I had already been rotating my pencil between every few strokes and that made them not work so well. I can't seem to break the habit so I have gone back to wood pencils.
- komali2 7y agoYea, what's up with that, actually? Why are they so good at making pretty much anything over there? Writing utensils: 毛笔 - "maobi," the brush one uses to write calligraphy. Brought to Japan by the Chinese thousand years ago or so, now they make the best Paper. Midori and Mio. Nigh untouchable. The only people that come close are Leuchtturm, IMO. And it's cheap! Fountain Pens. Actually the Taiwanese do well here as well, but nobody can take on the behemoth, Pilot. Cars: Toyota. Honda. Well regarded as the most repairable, built-to-last cars in the world. Mitsubishi, Nissan, Mazda coming out with excellent sports cars. Motorcycles: Suzuki tops the line when it comes to dependability, repairability, durability, and quality. Spend a week pulling apart and putting together an SV650, then do a Ducati Monster, you'll see what I mean (if you can even find the tools to start unbolting shit off the Ducati) Construction equipment: Komatsu, Hitachi. Some prefer Caterpillar but not for me. Extraterrestrial Equipment: Walk through the full-size model of the ISS in the Johnson Space Center, Houston. You've got the Russian model, carved out of solid blocks of aluminum. The American one, which feels like being inside of a tricked out Ford f150, cheap panels and all. Then you step in the Japanese one, an over-engineered masterpiece in interior design. Everything has a little cubby, space, place. So organized, so perfect. How do they do it??? Edit: I'm genuinely trying to think of something I trust some other country to make better than the Japanese and having a hard time. Maybe bicycles - can't beat the Taiwanese with Giant... but then again everyone uses Shimano components. Uh, phones? Samsung I guess? Laptops, I generally go for Lenovo, so there. That's all I can think of.
- equalunique 7y agoFor anyone here who likes "mechanical keyboards" it may interest you to know that for the next 7 days some Hagoromo-chalk color-matched kits are available in a "group buy" on Massdrop[0]. The kit is for the alpha (i.e., the "letter and number") keys on your US-ANSI layout keyboard. There is also another kit, which in addition to having the standard letters and numbers, adds APL sublegends. There are a couple smaller kits that add the color to the F-row, and more interestingly, a "Vim Kit" which has left, down, up, and right arrows as sublegends on the H, J, K, and L keys - all in a color of ABS plastic matches to Hagoromo chalk. [0] https://drop.com/buy/drop-oblotzky-gmk-oblivion-v2-custom-keycap-set?utm_source=linkshare&referer=DNQGJA https://drop.com/buy/drop-oblotzky-gmk-oblivion-v2-custom-ke...
- stevewillows 7y agoYou also can tack on `?mode=guest_open` to view any massdrop URL without a login. https://drop.com/buy/drop-oblotzky-gmk-oblivion-v2-custom-keycap-set?mode=guest_open https://drop.com/buy/drop-oblotzky-gmk-oblivion-v2-custom-ke... -- keycap set is $125
- vmurthy 7y agoLink doesn't seem to be working.. Do you think they've patched this?
- stevewillows 7y agoI love how every community has their 'thing' that is sought after. Looking up chalk leads down a very narrow rabbit hole. Some say that Hagoromo sold two of their compression molds to Sejong Corp (who also took the name), while the other went to Uma-Jirushi. If I had a use for chalk, it'd be fun to try to create the perfect stick. Compression molds aren't hard to find or even make, then its down the mix. I assume that Hagoromo was using more than water and a super fine plaster (e.g. Plaster of Paris) with white Tempura paint.. Has anybody tried making chalk before? I've made chalkboard paint for signage (just unsanded grout and paint), but I never thought to take it a step further.
- stevewillows 7y agothere is a lot more to making chalk than I realized. https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/c3/19/ae/06e559ead753d6/WO2011141936A1.pdf https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/c3/19/ae/06e559e...
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y agoThis is the new manufacturer of Hagoromo: http://www.sejongmall.co.kr http://www.sejongmall.co.kr (Korean only) http://www.kompass.kr/img/catalogue/20180719094839_1.pdf http://www.kompass.kr/img/catalogue/20180719094839_1.pdf (English brochure)
- peterburkimsher 7y agoThe chalk sounds amazing, for those with a blackboard. If anybody uses a whiteboard, here's a scientifically-methodical article reviewing the best whiteboard pens of each colour. https://medium.com/graphicfacilitation/all-you-need-to-know-about-whiteboard-markers-2a25d1249911 https://medium.com/graphicfacilitation/all-you-need-to-know-...
- pmiller2 7y agoWhat I’d like to know is why, of all academics, only mathematicians care about chalk. Computer scientists? Nope. Statisticians? Nope. Physicists? Engineers? Nope, and nope. Only mathematicians. And, don’t forget about boards. Real slate, please. Black. Large. Yes.
- mlevental 7y agobecause math classes are the only classes still taught on the board. everyone else uses powerpoint
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- pmiller2 7y agoOk, but why? You’re effectively saying they like it because they like it. CS, stats, physics, engineering, etc. classes would all benefit from slowing down and explaining things the way mathematicians are forced to do using chalk.
- mlevental 7y ago>You’re effectively saying they like it because they like it. no? you asked me why they like chalk not why the use chalk and slate? >Ok, but why? how should i know? i'm just reflecting on my experience. if i had to guess it's because math has a very strong computational component - you have to show kids how to perform the steps for to solve whatever problem (perform an integral, solve an ode, QR factor a matrix). >CS, stats, physics, engineering, etc. classes would all benefit from slowing down and explaining things the way mathematicians are forced to do using chalk. lol sure but almost no one cares about what's best for students (but about spending as little time as possible on teaching)
- chongli 7y agoAll of the CS classes I've taken (at Waterloo) have featured professors who lecture while they write on the board. On the other hand, some of the stats and financial math courses I've taken relied heavily on slides. I prefer no slides, personally, though my current instructor in differential equations is totally disorganized and frustrating to follow, despite using no slides at all.
- AnthonyWnC 7y agoI think chalk sucks as they are dirty, messy, dusty and probably not good for your health. I hope for the day they all disappeared and are replaced by digital whiteboard where you don't need to erase anything and can be collaborative with remote location in real time.
- dreen 7y agoI was wondering about this as well. Isn't chalk dust super bad for your lungs?
- johnohara 7y agoA well-made slate board completes the marriage. It is pure joy to come to class with a fully prepared math lesson on yellow legal paper, take attendance, clear the board, and start, filling three, maybe four boards with precise alphanumeric characters, graphs or diagrams, and a confident cadence that allows for good questions, good notes, and a positive learning environment. When good chalk hits good slate there is an immediate sense of responsibility with respect to what has been enabled.
- UweSchmidt 7y agoI haven't had a good learning experience when the professor cleared the boards, and filled them with precise characters, graphs or diagrams. Good chalk can't fix ex-cathedra teaching.
- sooheon 7y agoSeems a bit miserly to leave out "good questions, good notes, and a positive learning environment" as ingredients.
- _hardwaregeek 7y agoIt's amazing stuff. So smooth, so clean. I've resorted to keeping some in my backpack at all times. And anecdotally, I see more and more professors using it. Maybe good marketing at work? Sidenote, I love the name MSRI, cause you can pronounce it "misery"
- sapphire_tomb 7y agoInteresting. I thought the stuff people generally wrote on blackboards with was actually gypsum, and not chalk at all. Although everyone calls it chalk.
- ZoomZoomZoom 7y agoI have a slight physiological twitch-like reaction to the feeling of chalk on my fingertips. It bothered me so much during my learning years that I did my best to avoid coming to a board at all. If anyone knows a correct term for this phenomenon, I'd be glad to read more about it.
- garmaine 7y agoI don't know if there's a name, but you're not alone. I f$%*ing hate chalk, so much that I started avoiding math classes at my school. Both the sound it makes and the feeling of it as you mention. Just thinking about it makes my skin crawl. We're not crazy though. Just look at what chalk looks like under the microscope to see what your fingers are picking up on: https://www.google.com/search?q=chalk+microscope https://www.google.com/search?q=chalk+microscope Edit: maybe it's a tactile version of trypophobia? (trigger warning if you image search the term...)
- Throwaway_67576 7y agoThat's natural chalk, not blackboard or sidewalk chalk. > maybe it's a tactile version of trypophobia? You can't sense the individual chalk particles.
- skc 7y agoWhich one tastes best? Only half joking. I used to nibble on chalk as a kid, was oddly satisfying.
- beezle 7y agoSo what is the best blackboard then? Seems pointless to use really good chalk on an inferior board.