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In defence of the wolf
- gubbrora 7y agoMaking 1kg of wolf requires way more than 1kg of prey. A rule of thumb I've heard is a step in food chain has only about 10% efficiency. If wolves were more prey than predator populations would decline very quickly.
- Harvey-Specter 7y agoThe article is a commentary on the vilification of wolves, not whether or not they're literally prey animals.
- falcolas 7y agoWolves are our prey. And we do cause their populations to decline quickly, when we're not prevented from doing so by laws.
- asdf21 7y agoEverything is our prey tho..
- thebeefytaco 7y agoThey're only "more prey than predator" because humans have fought back against them. A wolf wouldn't think twice about killing a human.
- bildung 7y agoActually they avoid humans as much as possible. Wolves have been reintroduced where I live about a decade ago. Zero problems with humans.
- thebeefytaco 7y agoNowadays sure, but historically that's not true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_attack#History_and_perception_of_wolf_attacks_worldwide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_attack#History_and_percep...
- zhte415 7y agoI think a wolf would do more than think twice faced 1:1.
- Avshalom 7y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wolf_attacks_in_North_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wolf_attacks_in_North_... "There have been only two verified documented deaths from wild healthy wolves in North America" now as the list demonstrates "verified...wild healthy" leaves a hell of a lot of wiggle room but even then lists are not long.
- jandrese 7y agoHistorically wolf culling has been more about protecting livestock and pets than people. It's also helpful for hunters to make sure they're not competing for deer.
- mcv 7y agoI live in Netherland, were, as the article notes, wolves seem to be returning among some controversy. On the one hand it looks like a sign that nature is recovering in central and western Europe. Netherland in particular is known for only having highly managed nature, and the only piece of wild, unmanaged nature is on a piece of land that didn't even exist a couple of decades ago. So wolves returning feels to me like a sign that we're doing something right, giving more space for wild animals. But it's undeniable that it also comes with some challenges. Wolves might be welcome in the Oostvaardersplassen, but I don't know how they should ever get there. Instead, they're in areas where farmers and shepherds graze their sheep.
- Harvey-Specter 7y agoReading about the Oostvaardersplassen is interesting, it seems to have a lot of major problems, mostly related to being too small. I'm not sure that introducing wolves is a good idea, don't they typically need more space to roam?
- mcv 7y agoThey probably do. On the one hand, there are a lot of herd animals that we're supposed to leave alone but could probably do with some predation, and we've got predators in need of prey. But I don't think we can get them together; too isolated, too far away.
- Ericson2314 7y agoInteresting choice of gif. One bison in stampede mauls the baby one giving wolves free meal? Also, "guard llamas".
- jessaustin 7y agoThat is messed up! That must have been a bull that did that. So different from other ungulates I've observed.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- ip26 7y agoI hear guard llamas trample coyotes, flat as a pancake. They are used to protect alpaca. Makes me wonder if they are really just furry camels.
- nradov 7y agoIn my neighborhood people are freaking out and demanding the city "do something" just because coyotes have killed a few pet cats. It's ridiculous.
- projektfu 7y agoIt's often not even coyotes, which we fear for no good reason, but grey foxes, which kill cats as a normal territorial behavior.
- jessaustin 7y agoCoyotes have killed three of my calves in the last ten years. I shoot them on sight.
- projektfu 7y agoAh, yes. Exactly what the article is talking about.
- jessaustin 7y agoTFA is about wolves? ITT coyotes are also discussed. You're the one with the daft idea that coyotes don't kill things people care about. They do kill cats, and they do kill calves, and depending on the situation they could kill other things too.
- projektfu 7y agoI’m the one with the idea that they don’t kill people. You’re the one who kills them because they are predators of livestock, which is what the article is about.
- jessaustin 7y agoSorry about that; I'm not sure why that pinged my sarcasm meter. Of course you're right, that killing coyotes to preserve livestock (even though I'm not really sure how effective any particular coyote death is for that) is similar to killing wolves for the same reason. If there is a difference, it is that wolves seem to be a threatened species wherever they appear, while coyotes are about as endangered as squirrels. I don't particularly care about anyone's pets, but if they want to get rid of coyotes in a city to protect pet cats I don't see the problem. If they wanted to encourage coyotes to control feral cats that would be fine too. I assure you that I don't "fear" coyotes (or wolves for that matter, when I've been in wolf areas) as if they were a threat to my own life. I don't think "mortal fear" is a factor in anyone's thinking about coyotes? There may be something to TFA's claims that this is a factor with respect to wolves...
- mauvehaus 7y agoBook recommendation: Never Cry Wolf, by Farley Mowat. It takes a pretty close look at wolves (among other things) in the Canadian far north in a highly readable book. Hilariously funny at times, Mowat comes to largely the same conclusion as the article: that wolves have more to fear from us than us from them. He nonetheless, like the author of TFA, finds it hard to overcome the primal fear we seem to have of wolves.
- manifestsilence 7y agoAgreed. Fantastic book. The movie is decent as well, for those with less time.
- neonate 7y agoIt's semi-fictional and partially plagiarized, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_Cry_Wolf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_Cry_Wolf
- projektfu 7y agoWe do have to fear grizzly bears and mountain lions. And I'm not gonna lie, I'm pretty nervous if I'm all alone in the forest and I hear a wolf. :) I'd like us not to kill them, though, unless in self defense.
- Mikeb85 7y agoNot really. I've spent many hours, days, weeks at a time in the wilderness in the Canadian Rockies and West Coast, with some of the densest population of all 3 of these predators, and it's pretty damn easy to avoid them. No need for guns down here either (maybe in the Arctic, Polar bears are actually aggressive).
- jessaustin 7y agoGuns in the wilderness are like guns in everyday life. A real inconvenience 99.9% of the time. The rest of the time, they aren't inconvenient. Actually I compare guns to bicycle helmets. I only consider using either one of them in very specific and uncommon situations.
- quadcore 7y agoCan you elaborate please? How do you avoid a grizzly?
- Avshalom 7y agoThey generally avoid you. Humans don't look like food to all but a couple animals in the world and most animals being basically sensible assume that unless the 'not-prey' decides to be aggressive they have more to lose than gain from interacting with us.
- Mikeb85 7y agoThe easiest and most obvious way is to travel in groups and be noisy. Bears are opportunistic more than they're predatory, meaning they're risk averse and avoid confrontation. Next is to avoid their feeding areas - so don't stick around next to carrion, pass through their favourite meadows carefully but quickly, and don't hang around their berry bushes or obvious dens. Obviously stay away from cubs. If you do encounter them, back away slowly (don't turn your back), they'll pretty much always also go the other way. I've encountered plenty in the backcountry, usually at fairly long distances and they always move on. Also note that this applies mainly to BC, Alberta, and south of US. They do get slightly more aggressive up north due to having less easy food sources. Also, black bears are a different story, as are polar bears.
- mothsonasloth 7y agoFor anyone interested, there is an ongoing debate to re-introduce Wolves to the Scottish Highlands. We have a major issue with deer overpopulation (which comes with Lyme disease and damaged trees). So gameskeepers are receptive to the idea although sheep farmers are concerned. https://www.conservationjobs.co.uk/articles/wolf-reintroduction-in-scotland/ https://www.conservationjobs.co.uk/articles/wolf-reintroduct... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/08/wolves-scotland-reintroduction-lister-alladale https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/08/wolves-s...
- andrewvc 7y ago> it’s putting nature back to the way it was before humans altered its course. This sentiment is appealing, but there's little backing it. Humans have always shaped nature, and regardless of people, ecosystems are dynamic (1). We should be asking ourselves what sort of world we want to live in, and what we want our impact to look like. We should not harken back to a pre-human influenced time that never really existed. (Most restoration plans don't plan on restoring ecosystems to a fully pre-human state, but rather to some time where humans were present, but not as numerous). We should instead say things like "this ecosystem was better 300 years ago, and we should try and return to something closer to that". That's wholly different from the narrative of natural being everything but human. It does, however, force us to qualitatively analyze what we're doing. Instead of saying "we changed it, now we have to restore it", it forces us to think about what the costs and benefits of restoration are. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_ecology#Human-mediated_disturbance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_ecology#Human-media...
- uxp100 7y agoTwo book recommendations (not to you specifically) that come to mind are "Changes In The Land," which discusses the types of "wildlife management" done by native Americans, and "Against The Grain," which may not be the best source for this, but does describe agriculture near the beginning of human "civilizations."
- sandworm101 7y ago>> Humans have always shaped nature Tell that to Antarctica, or to Everest, or to the vast oceans. Until the last century mankind's presence was slight. We lived in the nice places that we convenient for us. Now we live everywhere, or at least our trash does. The idea that humans are part of the natural world, that we need not curtail our behavior because we were put here too, is quasi-religious dogma promoted by climate deniers. Humans are different. We have abilities vastly beyond any other species. That comes with responsibilities, responsibilities that cannot be sidestepped by declaring us just another mammal looking for food.
- kaybe 7y ago
- PrimalDual 7y agoI frankly don’t understand why we would want to reintroduce a predator like this. From the article it seems the only benefit they bring is to control deer populations at the expense of farmers and causing discomfort to the general population. Instead of having wolves why not simply have humans hunt the excess deer? If you can test the game for undesirable pathogens it could even be a good business opportunity. Ultimately humans are always in control of the environment even if we choose to do nothing. Our technology and resources are too great to claim we have “unmanaged wilderness”.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago> Instead of having wolves why not simply have humans hunt the excess deer? A possible argument would work like this: 1. Why not automate it by having drones hunt excess deer? 2. Why build drones when there are perfectly good natural ones, such as wolves?
- PrimalDual 7y ago1. I doubt we have the technology to automate deer hunting yet; however, it would be very useful to have drones hunt the deer and have humans pickup the spoils. I did say it would be great if we could buy hunted deer as long as it’s tested for the nasty pathogens wildlife tends to have. 2.Having humans hunt the deer is preferable because they obey laws, don’t scare people, wont eat the farmer’s animals and, again, we also get to keep the meat.
- uxp100 7y agoHunting is decreasing in popularity, possibly due to awareness of CWD. And I don't think there are people clamoring for venison. If you have friends or family that enjoy hunting, you can get quite a bit of venison for free. The best cuts are tasty, if your processor is good the summer sausage or hot sticks will be good, but I ate ground venison sloppy joes and chili not that many times before I personally never want it again. > Having humans hunt the deer is preferable because they obey laws, don’t scare people, Hunters are scary. Not that Hunters as people are scary, but I would avoid wilderness where I know there to be hunters active, even if I am wearing blaze orange. Accidents happen. Probably more often to the hunters themselves than to strangers, but they do happen.
- LifeLiverTransp 7y agoYoutube is littered with videos showing the attack reflex predators display, when another beeing shows vital problems (age) or insecure movement (again age). These creatures are not stupid, they will of course not attack, when there is plenty of easy food (deer overpopulation). But once that oversupply is depleted, and the times get rough, these packs will hunt down the weak, the disabled and the young in winters. Nature protectors will promise this not to happen, and then lie. They promised that there would be compensation, if the reintroduced beaver would create damages to farmers or citizens. The beaver would then arrive, build damns, basically do his part of terraforming, to create his ideal habbitat. I dont blame the creature, its doing what it always did. There was compensation- alright, 100 € for a broken axle on a tractor, sunk into a beaver lodge, dug into a field. Seriously, there are parts of the country, where this delusional maniacs dont dare to visit any more, better to stay in the city and make laws there how to govern there make believe world.
- ip26 7y agoUsing the image of the wolf as a bloodthirsty, uncontrollable killer... In South Carolina, state Sen. Stephen Goldfinch (R-Georgetown) is foregoing science for a call to arms. Goldfinch, who declined to comment for this story, told WMBF News in Myrtle Beach that killing coyotes should be South Carolina’s top priority. “The state’s perspective is every coyote needs to be a dead coyote. Trap them, shoot them . . . however you want to get rid of them,” Goldfinch said. “. . . This is now about going to war with the coyotes. When predator control comes up I always find myself wondering- sorry, which one was supposed to be the bloodthirsty killer? (I realize the Goldfinch quotes reference coyotes, but it's all the same story)