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Every article I see about the HK protests makes sure to focus on how non-violent the gathering was. I see many people framing that non-violence as a better way
by dymk 7y ago
Every article I see about the HK protests makes sure to focus on how non-violent the gathering was. I see many people framing that non-violence as a better way to affect change in their government.
I sincerely hope that a non-violent protest gets these people the change they want, but I take real issue in framing violent protests as unnecessary when your historically oppressive government refuses to listen to the will of its people.
- NotPaidToPost 7y agoThe real bottom line here: As long as you can make it back to HK then you are above the law in Macau/mainland China/Taiwan. That should be mentioned more often.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago> As long as you can make it back to HK then you are above the law in Macau/mainland China/Taiwan Not sure what’s going on with this account’s posting history. That said, this allegation is false. Taiwan supports the protesters [1]. Taiwan and Hong Kong, both lawful jurisdictions, are free to enter into extradition agreements with each other. This extradition bill was a ham-fisted attempt by Beijing to subjugate Hong Kong. Ironically, in failing, it has shown Xi’s limited power [2]. [1] https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/taiwan-expresses-support-for-hong-kong-extradition-bill-protests https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/taiwan-expresses... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/16/world/asia/hong-kong-xi-jinping.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/16/world/asia/hong-kong-xi-j...
- NotPaidToPost 7y agoWhat I wrote is not an allegation. It is a fact as there is currently no extradition from HK to Macau/mainland China/Taiwan. The whole bill was brought forward because of a HK resident accused of murdering his girlfriend in Taiwan and who fled back to HK. You can say that this was a pretext to bring the bill forward but it still highlights a real issue. The Taiwanese government is being cynical here. It's also difficult to see how this bill would "subjugate" HK if passed. I do agree that the HK courts would need to be very thorough in considering extradition requests from the mainland and that their independence should be preserved. > Ironically, in failing, it has shown Xi’s limited power Or perhaps people are assuming that "one country, two systems" is a sham when it actually isn't.
- ori_b 7y agoThey've had extradition for more than 100 years. http://oelawhk.lib.hku.hk/items/show/2937 http://oelawhk.lib.hku.hk/items/show/2937
- NotPaidToPost 7y agoCancel the protests, you're 100 years too late... Or are you?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago> The whole bill was brought forward because of a HK resident accused of murdering his girlfriend in Taiwan and who fled back to HK Germany broadly prohibits the extradition of its citizens [1]. (As does China [2].) This doesn’t turn Germans and Chinese into lawless actors outside their borders. It just means their international crimes tend to be domestically prosecuted. There are many ways to solve the problem of cross-border crime. Extradition is one of them. It works when you have two jurisdictions with rule of law. It is a bad solution between Hong Kong and China. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition#Own_citizens https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition#Own_citizens [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_China
- chatmasta 7y agoCouldn’t you say the same about any pair of counties without an extradition treaty? If an American flees to Russia, he’s “above the law” in America, for example. What makes HK so special that they must have an extradition treaty with China?
- NotPaidToPost 7y ago> What makes HK so special that they must have an extradition treaty with China? Apart from being a Chinese territory?
- chatmasta 7y agoHong Kong and China are separate legal jurisdictions, which seems to be the relevant distinction when considering extradition laws. It’s a bit reductive to describe Hong Kong as a “Chinese territory.” What do you think would happen if China attempted to forcefully annex Hong Kong?
- alasdair_ 7y ago>What do you think would happen if China attempted to forcefully annex Hong Kong? Lots of social media posts. Little action. Just like the Crimea.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y agoCrimea has the problem that the annexation was very, very popular among Crimeans, even more so than most separatist movements. That doesn't make it okay, but after the fact, it'd be hard for third parties to justify forcibly reuniting Crimeans with the Ukranian government they don't want to be under.
- NotPaidToPost 7y agoHow would you proceed to "annex" your own territory? HK is not Crimea (mentioned by someone else), it is Chinese but enjoys a high degree of autonomy until 2047.
- ralusek 7y agoHong Kong's government is historically not oppressive to its people. It's generally considered to be one of the most libertarian places on Earth. If they were to get violent against their oppressors, they'd be getting violent against mainland China. (They don't want to get violent against mainland China).
- briandear 7y agoViolent protests brings out the tanks and people start dying literally in the streets. Unless you are talking about actual revolution, violent protest accomplishes nothing and results in losing the moral high ground which is critical if one is to have international support. Violent protest in Hong Kong would result in Beijing sending in soldiers to suppress the rebellion under the guise of “public safety.” You get martial law and its justified (using their calculus) as protecting people from harm from the violent protesters. Violent protest in China would result in thousands dead and Beijing accelerating the 2047 expiration of the two systems, one country agreement. Bad idea.
- dymk 7y agoSo if Beijing is just going to send military force if they perceive something that will truly threaten change in HK, but they did not send anything, what does that tell you about the probable outcome of these non-violent protests? I think the protestors are fighting the good fight, but I'm not holding my breath that anything will actually come about because 2 million people stood in the street.
- javagram 7y agoViolent protest that is not “actual revolution” doesn’t bring change. It just leads to fighting in the streets as the parent said. compare the violent protests that ignited the Syrian civil war (actual revolution) to the violent protests that resulted in no actual revolution (Rodney King riots, yellow vests in France, etc) to consider the difference, I think.
- baybal2 7y agoThere is little distinction. One leads to another. If you can dig news in well, you know that Syria began with some bakers protesting flour price hike and them roughing up some policemen. A lot of revolutions stared with public disturbance events which had only tangential relation to political context, with Russian revolution being the best known example
- b_tterc_p 7y ago
- sremani 7y agoViolent protests in this case directly play into the hands of CCP and gets you PLA with HK Police uniforms on the streets. Also any change that comes through "gun" rarely turns into ballot friendly. Once armed the erst while "freedom" fighters will start fighting for their clan/class/tribe/interests.
- alasdair_ 7y ago>Also any change that comes through "gun" rarely turns into ballot friendly The IRA in Ireland used plenty of guns and it helped them win real political power in a ballot friendly way.
- baybal2 7y agoDo you understand that PLA can march into HK without any tricks, invariably of that? I'd also mention that there were many times in the past when Beijing genuinely considered that option. During yellow umbrella protests last year for examples, 3 regiments in Guandong province were not simply put into high readiness, but actually mobilised, i.e. troops issued ammo, and vehicles fuelled and armed. I will not be surprised if a bigger operation is underway right now, and we simply don't know it. VPNs have been jammed 24/7 for more than a week, more intensively than even during 4.6 anniversary. New bootstrapping IP ranges are blocked within minutes on major VPNs. I've never ever seen it being so extreme ever.
- b_tterc_p 7y agoViolent protests != violent coup
- loyukfai 7y agoAs others have pointed out, HK government is not historically oppressive, physically speaking. So if the protesters initiate violence without being provoked, mass opinions may change real quick. IMO we better consider this on a case-by-case basis. If non-violent protests can and will work in more places in future, why not?
- dymk 7y agoLike I said, I hope they work, but I see no reason for the HK government or Beijing to respect this, given there's no actual threat of the people protesting in a more forceful way.
- loyukfai 7y agoThere was supposed to be a general strike tomorrow (Monday), but since the government has suspended the legislation, it seems to be called off (I said "seems" because there is no clear leadership in the current protest movement).
- seanmcdirmid 7y agoIt got pretty bad in the late 60s, ironically with pro Mao demonstrators during the cultural revolution (which had some spill over into HK).
- baby 7y agoThe point is that politicians always use the inevitable violence that arises when you have demonstrations to discredit the legitimity of the demonstration. I'm French and politicians have become very very good at this.
- seanmcdirmid 7y agoThe American Revolution was basically a violent protest and is widely celebrated. One person’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter.