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The level of negativity and hostility in the comments here is really disappointing to me. I agree that XR are definitely pushing the envelope on what we conside

The level of negativity and hostility in the comments here is really disappointing to me. I agree that XR are definitely pushing the envelope on what we consider to be reasonable activism and protest. However, I also think that the old adage "desperate times call for desperate measures" applies here. Yes, there are plenty of actions being taken to combat the damage we're inflicting to this little wet rock we all call home. But it seems obvious to me that there are enough people who think we're not doing enough that they are organizing and mobilizing in extraordinary ways. Maybe some of those extraordinary ways cross the line. But who decides what the line is anyway? The people who are sitting at home typing out angry comments about how we should and shouldn't deal with the existential threat to our species? I hope not, or we're all doomed!

stubish 7y ago
Looking at this from another country, I would expect nothing else except blow back. My first thought is are we dealing with idiots, a false flag, or trolls. If this is where 'desperate measures' has led too, they are better off doing nothing. This sort of strike action isn't going to get the general population to vote green, but vote fascist.
- wiz21c 7y ago
  maybe it's time for eco-fascism ?
  - slim 7y ago
    ecological concerns are still too technical to be popular. populists are not interested. so it's still not time. maybe when climate change becomes obvious to everybody
  - adamcharnock 7y ago
    Neil Asher’s Owner Trilogy actually uses this as (part of) the basis of its plot.
  - orbifold 7y ago
    That’s why the Green Party is so popular in Germany. Voters get to live out their authoritarian streak in a socially acceptable way. It’s not an accident they are now in power in one of the more conservative parts of Germany (Baden-Würtenberg).
    - samcday 7y ago
      Would it be better if we went back to the good old days where those with an authoritarian streak vote parties into power that like to oppress (and worse) their critics? Put differently, even if you disagree with the rhetoric of the German Green Party, surely you would agree that they're definitely not as bad as other certain parties that have come before in Germany? :)
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  It seems pretty effective (that's not endorsement) if you're talking about a small local protest from another country. Maybe they're actually not idiots but just people you disagree with?
  - stubish 7y ago
    I disagree with the methods, and am somewhat pissed off at how this will set back the cause. I see it harming climate change action, and I expect to see this small local protest used as a political tool by the right wing all over the place. I expect it to be used as an excuse for new laws and police powers in the UK at least, although with the ongoing brexit it might take a while.
dfawcus 7y ago
Such actions are covered by the UK definition of terrorism: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/1 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/1
- samcday 7y ago
  Out of interest, are you a lawyer? I'm really struggling to see how you can interpret the language of the page you linked to include non-violent activism. Could you tell me specifically which sections of that legislation you think apply here?
  - threw902309 7y ago
    Targeting critical infrastructure to get what you want is definition of terrorism.
    - samcday 7y ago
      I just want to say I hear you and think there could very well be some interesting nuances that we could discuss. But I have a policy of not engaging with throwaway accounts. If you want to send me an email and discuss this further, then great! My email is in my profile. Or if you want to repost this comment from a non-throwaway account, even better!
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - dfawcus 7y ago
    1a -> 2d : creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public 1b : the use or threat is designed to influence the government or an international governmental organisation 1c: the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause So XR is an ideological and/or political cause, intended to influence Governments, and this threat to fly drones over airports in and of itself risks the public. Assume a failure and/or crash of the drone, and all the bad "accidental" things which could arise. One could certainly argue that the statute is "wrong", and that this sort of action should be treated as some other criminal offence. However I believe it is capable of being argued as terrorism under that definition. Hence anyone so charged could be subject to pre-trial detention of up to 28 days, and then may have to convince a jury that they should engage in Nullification. Part of the complaints about that Act when passed was specifically that it covered stuff which did not involve violence (2b - 2e). Note that the criteria in Section 1 (2) are logically OR'ed - only one of 2a through 2e has to be satisfied. If you believe you may need advice from a Lawyer, I suggest you consult one.
2muchcoffeeman 7y ago
> Maybe some of those extraordinary ways cross the line. But who decides what the line is anyway? Probably the people you inconvenience. A bunch of vegans disrupted traffic in Melbourne, Australia recently. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-08/melbourne-vegan-protest-blocks-trams-traffic-causes-chaos/10980056 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-08/melbourne-vegan-prote... I don't think they made many friends. It's really hard getting someone to change their mind or their thinking about an issue. But I firmly believe actively making enemies is probably not the way to go about things. If I worked in Melbourne on that day, I would have eaten a revenge steak.
- samcday 7y ago
  > I don't think they made many friends. I don't think they're interested in making friends. They're interested in trying to persuade more people to stop eating the flesh of sentient creatures when our diets don't even require it. > It's really hard getting someone to change their mind or their thinking about an issue. I agree. > But I firmly believe actively making enemies is probably not the way to go about things. I disagree. Pretty sure there was lots of enemies made when women demanded the right to vote. Or when African Americans demanded to stop being segregated. We take a lot of things for granted as "obvious" now, but they're only obvious because enough people stood up and said they don't really care for your feelings. > If I worked in Melbourne on that day, I would have eaten a revenge steak. I think that says more about you than it does about the vegan activists.
  - Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
    > I don't think they're interested in making friends. They're interested in trying to persuade more people to stop eating the flesh of sentient creatures when our diets don't even require it. And first making those people your enemies is a good way to persuade them to do it?
    - Xylakant 7y ago
      First of all, you need to make sure that the cause is known. Every demonstration, every strike, has the primary goal of raising attention. Yet, every strike, every demonstration inconveniences people and as such may make enemies.
tomohawk 7y ago
Whenever a group seeks to get their way by interfering with the rights of others, because what they are trying to achieve is "too important" to worry about such "petty" concerns as people's right to freely travel, engage in commerce, and generally pursue happiness - it's time to watch out. Recent (past 200 years) history is filled with example after example of how tragically this ends. This is not civil disobedience. This is actively attacking other people and putting their lives at risk. Groups such as this are not doing anything noble, and they do not deserve any admiration, respect, or protection.
- IshKebab 7y ago
  Do we not have a right to clean air? One could easily argue the most of the population is interfering with my right to breathe clean air and enjoy normal weather.
civility 7y ago
> [...] or we're all doomed! When are we all doomed? Can you put a date (year) on it?
- samcday 7y ago
  I'm going to assume you're joking here, this definitely made me chuckle :)
  - civility 7y ago
    No joke. Is it 10 years from now, 100 years, or something else?
    - samcday 7y ago
      Kinda bummed that you weren't joking. The tone of these threads is pretty depressing and I could have used a little pick-me-up. Anyway, I'm not a climatologist, but from what I understand we will be seeing significant global ramifications in the next 2-3 decades. In other words, it's not just the next generation that's going to suffer, it's going to be a great deal many of us who are alive today.
      - sfifs 7y ago
        Not OP but if you're posting here on HN, you're probably not going to find too much trouble parsing the actual academic papers vs. press releases and IPCC summaries When you do, you may find that while there's virtually no question human activities are having effect(s) on climate (very likely negative) there's a LOT of uncertainty on what and how much the effect(s) are.
  - wtdata 7y ago
    Did you though the same when we were told that in 20 year the Earth would be unhabitable due to the holes in the ozone layer and that it would take hundreds of not thousands of years to heal (that was 25 years ago btw)? How about when Al Gore told your that inconvenient truth that the sea levels world rise 100m during the next decade (that was 15 years ago btw)?
threw902309 7y ago
Swap a few words and you get Nazi propaganda: "desperate times call for desperate measures", "existential thread to our race", "mobilizing in extraordinary ways", "we are all doomed" F*k you! Democracy works certain way. People like you are were keen to throw it away.
- samcday 7y ago
  I'm sorry that my forceful language offended you so much. Let me assure you I am 100% not a fascist :) Democracy doesn't actually work a "certain way". There's many forms of democracy all over the world. Given that they're a human construct, one thing they all share in common is that they're deeply flawed in every permutation. I'm not interested in throwing anything away. I'm interested in iterating on what we have and striving to make it better. For me, that's what it means to be human.
  - threw902309 7y ago
    > democracy .... is ... deeply flawed in every permutation. > striving to make it better And you are going to fix it... But voice you have does not have enough punch... And desperate situation requires desperate measures... Still f*k you.
    - dang 7y ago
      We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines. Doing this will get your main account banned as well, so please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- qwsxyh 7y ago
  Yes, changing the words of a sentence changes the meaning of a sentence. You are very clever.
wtdata 7y ago
> However, I also think that the old adage "desperate times call for desperate measures" applies here. If they were really into desperate measures, their actions would be targeting China (you know, that country that now produces more CO2 than all the Western countries combined and that is set to keep greatly increasing it during the next decade), not the only set of developed countries that actually did something and greatly decreased their CO2 emissions in the last decades.
- samcday 7y ago
  I see your point, but I disagree. The people involved in XR are British citizens. If they were to go to China and start performing acts of civil disobedience, they'd simply be deported (or worse). Instead, they're trying to effect change in a place where they're afforded civil liberties to do so. I don't claim to speak for that movement, and maybe I'm not even thinking along the same lines as they are, but I would guess their hope is that if they change their home country then that example will help to influence other nations.
- rhblake 7y ago
  Per capita, which seems like a more fair comparison, plenty of Western countries produce more CO2 than China; the US and Canada each produce about twice as much.
  - wtdata 7y ago
    I disagree. It's certainly not a fair comparison to look at these issues per capita. I should not be morally responsible for people that have way to many childrten with no regard for sustainability (be it environmental or economical). Each country should be responsible to make their territory carbon neutral. If they have an high or low population density should be an irrelevant point.
    - llamathrowaway 7y ago
      You should be thankful towards China then. Who knows how many more people would have been born if they did not enforce their one child policy or whatever.
dorchadas 7y ago
To be honest, I'm about 100% certain that ecoterrorism (terrorism to protect the environment) will be the next main type of terrorism. And I think it's going to start happening much sooner than anyone things. And, truthfully, I can't say I blame the people.
JustSomeNobody 7y ago
Pissing people off is not a very effective way of getting them to be sympathetic to your cause. Also, I’m sure a good number of people flying are already worried about the climate but they still have to get where they’re going faster than a week.
StavrosK 7y ago
As a drone enthusiast, I'm not super excited about the impending outlawing of drones because some people are idiots. I want to be able to enjoy my hobby, but I won't be able to if these people get drones outlawed.
subjectsigma 7y ago
> The level of negativity and hostility in the comments here is really disappointing to me. A group of people acted like irresponsible fuckheads and got negative pushback? What a concept. From what I see, successful protests were based around unifying actions. Who was ultimately more impactful, the Black Panthers or MLK? Which one promoted a message which split people into groups, and which promoted a message that unified people and promoted empathy? Flying a drone into airspace is not only irresponsible because to puts lives and property at risk, but it does nothing to promote the cause because it divides people into two groups - the people affected by delays, and the people causing those delays.

stubish 7y ago

Looking at this from another country, I would expect nothing else except blow back. My first thought is are we dealing with idiots, a false flag, or trolls. If this is where 'desperate measures' has led too, they are better off doing nothing. This sort of strike action isn't going to get the general population to vote green, but vote fascist.

wiz21c 7y ago
maybe it's time for eco-fascism ?
- slim 7y ago
  ecological concerns are still too technical to be popular. populists are not interested. so it's still not time. maybe when climate change becomes obvious to everybody
- adamcharnock 7y ago
  Neil Asher’s Owner Trilogy actually uses this as (part of) the basis of its plot.
- orbifold 7y ago
  That’s why the Green Party is so popular in Germany. Voters get to live out their authoritarian streak in a socially acceptable way. It’s not an accident they are now in power in one of the more conservative parts of Germany (Baden-Würtenberg).
  - samcday 7y ago
    Would it be better if we went back to the good old days where those with an authoritarian streak vote parties into power that like to oppress (and worse) their critics? Put differently, even if you disagree with the rhetoric of the German Green Party, surely you would agree that they're definitely not as bad as other certain parties that have come before in Germany? :)
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
pbhjpbhj 7y ago
It seems pretty effective (that's not endorsement) if you're talking about a small local protest from another country. Maybe they're actually not idiots but just people you disagree with?
- stubish 7y ago
  I disagree with the methods, and am somewhat pissed off at how this will set back the cause. I see it harming climate change action, and I expect to see this small local protest used as a political tool by the right wing all over the place. I expect it to be used as an excuse for new laws and police powers in the UK at least, although with the ongoing brexit it might take a while.

dfawcus 7y ago

Such actions are covered by the UK definition of terrorism: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/1 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/1

samcday 7y ago
Out of interest, are you a lawyer? I'm really struggling to see how you can interpret the language of the page you linked to include non-violent activism. Could you tell me specifically which sections of that legislation you think apply here?
- threw902309 7y ago
  Targeting critical infrastructure to get what you want is definition of terrorism.
  - samcday 7y ago
    I just want to say I hear you and think there could very well be some interesting nuances that we could discuss. But I have a policy of not engaging with throwaway accounts. If you want to send me an email and discuss this further, then great! My email is in my profile. Or if you want to repost this comment from a non-throwaway account, even better!
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- dfawcus 7y ago
  1a -> 2d : creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public 1b : the use or threat is designed to influence the government or an international governmental organisation 1c: the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause So XR is an ideological and/or political cause, intended to influence Governments, and this threat to fly drones over airports in and of itself risks the public. Assume a failure and/or crash of the drone, and all the bad "accidental" things which could arise. One could certainly argue that the statute is "wrong", and that this sort of action should be treated as some other criminal offence. However I believe it is capable of being argued as terrorism under that definition. Hence anyone so charged could be subject to pre-trial detention of up to 28 days, and then may have to convince a jury that they should engage in Nullification. Part of the complaints about that Act when passed was specifically that it covered stuff which did not involve violence (2b - 2e). Note that the criteria in Section 1 (2) are logically OR'ed - only one of 2a through 2e has to be satisfied. If you believe you may need advice from a Lawyer, I suggest you consult one.

2muchcoffeeman 7y ago

> Maybe some of those extraordinary ways cross the line. But who decides what the line is anyway? Probably the people you inconvenience. A bunch of vegans disrupted traffic in Melbourne, Australia recently. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-08/melbourne-vegan-protest-blocks-trams-traffic-causes-chaos/10980056 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-08/melbourne-vegan-prote... I don't think they made many friends. It's really hard getting someone to change their mind or their thinking about an issue. But I firmly believe actively making enemies is probably not the way to go about things. If I worked in Melbourne on that day, I would have eaten a revenge steak.

samcday 7y ago
> I don't think they made many friends. I don't think they're interested in making friends. They're interested in trying to persuade more people to stop eating the flesh of sentient creatures when our diets don't even require it. > It's really hard getting someone to change their mind or their thinking about an issue. I agree. > But I firmly believe actively making enemies is probably not the way to go about things. I disagree. Pretty sure there was lots of enemies made when women demanded the right to vote. Or when African Americans demanded to stop being segregated. We take a lot of things for granted as "obvious" now, but they're only obvious because enough people stood up and said they don't really care for your feelings. > If I worked in Melbourne on that day, I would have eaten a revenge steak. I think that says more about you than it does about the vegan activists.
- Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
  > I don't think they're interested in making friends. They're interested in trying to persuade more people to stop eating the flesh of sentient creatures when our diets don't even require it. And first making those people your enemies is a good way to persuade them to do it?
  - Xylakant 7y ago
    First of all, you need to make sure that the cause is known. Every demonstration, every strike, has the primary goal of raising attention. Yet, every strike, every demonstration inconveniences people and as such may make enemies.

tomohawk 7y ago

Whenever a group seeks to get their way by interfering with the rights of others, because what they are trying to achieve is "too important" to worry about such "petty" concerns as people's right to freely travel, engage in commerce, and generally pursue happiness - it's time to watch out. Recent (past 200 years) history is filled with example after example of how tragically this ends. This is not civil disobedience. This is actively attacking other people and putting their lives at risk. Groups such as this are not doing anything noble, and they do not deserve any admiration, respect, or protection.

IshKebab 7y ago
Do we not have a right to clean air? One could easily argue the most of the population is interfering with my right to breathe clean air and enjoy normal weather.

civility 7y ago

> [...] or we're all doomed! When are we all doomed? Can you put a date (year) on it?

samcday 7y ago
I'm going to assume you're joking here, this definitely made me chuckle :)
- civility 7y ago
  No joke. Is it 10 years from now, 100 years, or something else?
  - samcday 7y ago
    Kinda bummed that you weren't joking. The tone of these threads is pretty depressing and I could have used a little pick-me-up. Anyway, I'm not a climatologist, but from what I understand we will be seeing significant global ramifications in the next 2-3 decades. In other words, it's not just the next generation that's going to suffer, it's going to be a great deal many of us who are alive today.
    - sfifs 7y ago
      Not OP but if you're posting here on HN, you're probably not going to find too much trouble parsing the actual academic papers vs. press releases and IPCC summaries When you do, you may find that while there's virtually no question human activities are having effect(s) on climate (very likely negative) there's a LOT of uncertainty on what and how much the effect(s) are.
- wtdata 7y ago
  Did you though the same when we were told that in 20 year the Earth would be unhabitable due to the holes in the ozone layer and that it would take hundreds of not thousands of years to heal (that was 25 years ago btw)? How about when Al Gore told your that inconvenient truth that the sea levels world rise 100m during the next decade (that was 15 years ago btw)?

threw902309 7y ago

Swap a few words and you get Nazi propaganda: "desperate times call for desperate measures", "existential thread to our race", "mobilizing in extraordinary ways", "we are all doomed" F*k you! Democracy works certain way. People like you are were keen to throw it away.

samcday 7y ago
I'm sorry that my forceful language offended you so much. Let me assure you I am 100% not a fascist :) Democracy doesn't actually work a "certain way". There's many forms of democracy all over the world. Given that they're a human construct, one thing they all share in common is that they're deeply flawed in every permutation. I'm not interested in throwing anything away. I'm interested in iterating on what we have and striving to make it better. For me, that's what it means to be human.
- threw902309 7y ago
  > democracy .... is ... deeply flawed in every permutation. > striving to make it better And you are going to fix it... But voice you have does not have enough punch... And desperate situation requires desperate measures... Still f*k you.
  - dang 7y ago
    We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines. Doing this will get your main account banned as well, so please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
qwsxyh 7y ago
Yes, changing the words of a sentence changes the meaning of a sentence. You are very clever.

wtdata 7y ago

> However, I also think that the old adage "desperate times call for desperate measures" applies here. If they were really into desperate measures, their actions would be targeting China (you know, that country that now produces more CO2 than all the Western countries combined and that is set to keep greatly increasing it during the next decade), not the only set of developed countries that actually did something and greatly decreased their CO2 emissions in the last decades.

samcday 7y ago
I see your point, but I disagree. The people involved in XR are British citizens. If they were to go to China and start performing acts of civil disobedience, they'd simply be deported (or worse). Instead, they're trying to effect change in a place where they're afforded civil liberties to do so. I don't claim to speak for that movement, and maybe I'm not even thinking along the same lines as they are, but I would guess their hope is that if they change their home country then that example will help to influence other nations.
rhblake 7y ago
Per capita, which seems like a more fair comparison, plenty of Western countries produce more CO2 than China; the US and Canada each produce about twice as much.
- wtdata 7y ago
  I disagree. It's certainly not a fair comparison to look at these issues per capita. I should not be morally responsible for people that have way to many childrten with no regard for sustainability (be it environmental or economical). Each country should be responsible to make their territory carbon neutral. If they have an high or low population density should be an irrelevant point.
  - llamathrowaway 7y ago
    You should be thankful towards China then. Who knows how many more people would have been born if they did not enforce their one child policy or whatever.

dorchadas 7y ago

To be honest, I'm about 100% certain that ecoterrorism (terrorism to protect the environment) will be the next main type of terrorism. And I think it's going to start happening much sooner than anyone things. And, truthfully, I can't say I blame the people.

JustSomeNobody 7y ago

Pissing people off is not a very effective way of getting them to be sympathetic to your cause. Also, I’m sure a good number of people flying are already worried about the climate but they still have to get where they’re going faster than a week.

StavrosK 7y ago

As a drone enthusiast, I'm not super excited about the impending outlawing of drones because some people are idiots. I want to be able to enjoy my hobby, but I won't be able to if these people get drones outlawed.

subjectsigma 7y ago

> The level of negativity and hostility in the comments here is really disappointing to me. A group of people acted like irresponsible fuckheads and got negative pushback? What a concept. From what I see, successful protests were based around unifying actions. Who was ultimately more impactful, the Black Panthers or MLK? Which one promoted a message which split people into groups, and which promoted a message that unified people and promoted empathy? Flying a drone into airspace is not only irresponsible because to puts lives and property at risk, but it does nothing to promote the cause because it divides people into two groups - the people affected by delays, and the people causing those delays.