8 ms·

phone is basically a choice between google (any android phone unless you jailbreak and de-goog it, which is a PITA) and apple. Who is less offensive surveilling

by harry8 7y ago

phone is basically a choice between google (any android phone unless you jailbreak and de-goog it, which is a PITA) and apple. Who is less offensive surveilling you? Can you really predict that will still be true in 5 years?

jacquesm 7y ago
Dumb phone is a valid choice. And it works just fine, there is absolutely nothing that a smart phone offers that I can not do without, and not having a continuous distraction makes me a lot more productive than I would be otherwise. It's bad enough with the web and 'always on' internet, to have that in my pocket would completely kill my productivity.
- janlaureys 7y ago
  I appreciate the sentiment but my phone now does so many things that I would really miss if I'd have to get rid of it. GPS and navigation, Mobile Banking, IM because nobody sends text messages anymore, Calendar and quick web searches and a decent camera I'll always carry.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    - GPS and navigation I look at a map before I leave when on foot and in the car I have a navigator. - Mobile Banking Nothing that can't wait until I'm behind a desk. - IM because nobody sends text messages anymore Nobody sends me IM messages because I never used it in the first place. - Calendar Could be useful, once every month or so, but on the whole it is easy enough to do this stuff once I'm back behind my desk, worst case the other side has access and they can send me an invite. This really only comes up when someone on the phone wants to book some kind of appointment when I'm on the road, and in that case I'm actually really happy I am not going to be tempted to look at my phone, it is annoying enough that people expect your phone to be answered at all hours. - quick web searches I do a ton of those, but not when I'm out of the office or meeting people, I've had a case come up once or twice but usually I just make a mental note to check up on something. - a decent camera I'll always carry That's a good one, another one which would work for me would be to have something good to read wherever I go. But those two can be solved quite easily: my dumb phone has a reasonably good camera and there's always a book in my bag.
    - gloflo 7y ago
      Good for you. How is your FTP file synchronisation going? Sarcasm aside, surely you know how much of an outlier you are. Your comment sounds pretty limited on empathy for other lifestyles.
      - jacquesm 7y ago
        > Your comment sounds pretty limited on empathy for other lifestyles. That problem is on your end I'm afraid, no judgment call on other lifestyles was implied or intended, I merely documented how I do stuff without commenting on how you do stuff or how I feel you should do stuff. In a nutshell: I'm susceptible to being distracted with an ease that makes toddlers jealous and because of that I have to seriously restrict the kind of effect my environment has on me or I'll happily burn up my whole life without achieving anything. In order to do that I've decided that smartphones - besides being a security risk and a tracking device - are not for me.
    - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
      Do you have any sort of music player with you? My phone is basically my life's soundtrack - music, podcasts, or audiobooks.
      - ocdtrekkie 7y ago
        A shocking number of dumb devices play music, including most dumbphones. Not the parent, but in my personal case I only listen to music in my car, and have my MP3 library synced to a device in my car. It doesn't cost me data and works in the middle of nowhere.
    - CapricornNoble 7y ago
      I'm curious, do you travel internationally? In my experience, unless I do an inordinate amount of prior planning (printing out map directions, itineraries, hotel reservations, etc.) it is very easy to have navigation difficulties in unfamiliar cities with street signs in foreign languages....or no street signs at all. Where do you get an accurate map when you are trying to meet people at a newly-opened cafe in Hanoi's old French Quarter? Nobody can send you an IM? So if you strike up a conversation with a Shenzhen entrepreneur, he wants to stay in contact to talk business and suggests WeChat, your only response is [US phone number] or [email]? No web searches when out of the office? So if your next course of action is contingent upon a piece of information you don't currently have access to, you can't proceed with a decision on-the-spot because you possess no ability to access remote data while you are mobile? I dunno, seems like a lot of potential inefficiencies and lost opportunities compared to dropping $150 on a dual-SIM rugged Android phone from China, and then installing a few apps on it. But hey, if it works for you..... I took a family trip back to America recently and my jaw dropped watching my (74yo) father and his wife use a paper map to navigate to DisneyWorld. They complained that Google was giving them "bad directions". My older brother and I just looked at each other and shook our heads. PICNIC (Problem in chair, not in computer).
- jjulius 7y ago
  Do you have a dumb phone recommendation, or would any do just fine? I've been seriously considering making the switch to a dumb phone that could just cover calls/texts/work emails.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    So far second hand Nokia's have done me well.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- Aromasin 7y ago
  I used to hold this view, until I went and bought myself a dumb device and ended up ditching it a month later. Some apps are just too integral to modern life to lose, and many unavoidable places only function using apps now (my library, parking, bike rental, work access and expenses claims etc). To counter this issue of distraction, I managed to get my app selection down to about 10-12 essentials, all heavily curated so there's nothing that will 'keep me scrolling'. It basically consists of Email, Messaging, Duolingo, edx, Instagram (only following about 200 close friends so my feed is at most 5-8 pictures a day), Uber, Spotify, MyFitnessPal, Audible, and the apps for the aforementioned uses. After removing the "continuous distraction" apps from my phone it's gone from a procrastination machine, back to being the worlds most valuable tool.
- war1025 7y ago
  I currently use a dumb phone that I got in early 2011. I really wouldn't mind upgrading, but the only dumb phones that are Verizon compatible seem to be flip phones, and I really don't want a flip phone. I honestly rarely use the thing anymore other than to text my mom good morning and call someone maybe once a month to verify plans.
  - AliciaWilson 7y ago
    I thought you could change your life and take the right path in terms of education. If this is so then the site can help you https://phdessay.com/ https://phdessay.com/ I think you will always be happy to help from free essay.
- w8rbt 7y ago
  I was a dumb phone user for years. I carried a refurbished LG 105c for about the last six years. The battery was great. I could go an entire week without charging it. MMS messages started crashing the LG in the past few years and this increasingly got worse. So I got a cheap Samsung smart phone (J35) just this year. MMS messages were the only compelling reason for me to switch (literally the phone would crash every time someone sent me an MMS). I love the smart phone now too. I'm not sure how I got by without one for the last decade, but had my old LG handled MMS messages, I would have never switched. P.S. People often made fun of me for carrying the dumb phone. I'd always quip, "I'm too smart to use a smart phone." Feel free to use that quote when defending yourself ;)
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    I don't see any need to defend myself. My choices are mine and this is my life, that's all the defense I'll ever need. Other people are free to do whatever they want to but to position things as though 'apple or android' are the only choices available to me does simply not seem correct. Yes, I'm sure the percentage of tech people without a smartphone is low but outside the tech scene there are still plenty of people without smartphones.
propertymagnate 7y ago
That is hopefully going to change soon - Linux phones are coming: Pinephone (should be early next year, somewhere around $150) https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/ https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/ Librem 5 (should be Q3 2019, $650) https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/
- mxuribe 7y ago
  More than "linux winning the desktop", i really, really, really hope and dream that more linux phones become available - including LineageOS stuff becoming easier to install on legacy android phones.
  - aclsid 7y ago
    I think what you want is already here. Android is Linux on the phone. LineageOS was built on top of AOSP. What we really need though is a replacement for all Google Play Services that is free software, including push notifications.
    - AstralStorm 7y ago
      Android is using Linux, but calling it Linux is entirely wrong. It tries very hard to hide any non-portable components from you. The base platform is a virtual machine where you have zero access to any Linux API. They even indent their own API for things Linux already has! (Binder, ashmem, power management...) About the one Linux API you have access to is sockets, if you're writing native code, and there mostly a POSIX subset. (No, you do not really have access to file system directly.) It could run on Minix or Windows or Darwin for all Google cares about - but hardware manufacturers preferred Linux for the price.
- vardump 7y ago
  I'd love to have something like: * Kernel, drivers and userland I can compile on my own if I want to * 4-8 GB RAM * 4 core Cortex A72 or better wide out-of-order core (no A53, A55 or similar crap, unless it's a big-little configuration) * Good 64-128 GB low latency high IOPS eMMC. Too many devices penny pinch here creating a slow user experience. * 4G (600 Mbps+) or preferably 5G * Good OLED screen, 1080x1920 is probably enough. Although I do like S9+ 1440x2960 screen * Stereo speakers, front and back camera, GPS (+ glonass, etc.), standard set of sensors. * USB-C and headphone jack * MicroSD slot that can actually read & write over 100 megabytes per second. * NO ability for baseband to read and write memory arbitrarily; embedded USB connection or something. * Price below $1000
tobr 7y ago
Is this question a trap? Isn't it rather obvious that Apple, a company that has never really had a business model built on surveillence, is less offensive than Google in this regard?
- amelius 7y ago
  Yes, but fast forward 5 years, everybody has switched to Apple, and shareholders are getting worried that they might not see any growth this quarter ...
  - HillaryBriss 7y ago
    Another risk to Apple would be that the regulatory machine of government more or less brings the Google/FB data vacuum under control in the next 5 years and consumers stop paying super high prices for Apple hardware and ecosystem membership. Because they trust Google/FB again. Ok, on second thought, that's an infinitesimally small risk.
  - ahuth 7y ago
    This is always a possibility. At least Apple has a business model based on selling devices and services. Unlike Google (or Facebook, for example), monetizing users / analytics / tracking isn't the only option available to them. So you're right - Apple could always go down a bad path. But because of their respective business models, I'm more confident in Apple than Google.
    - 2T1Qka0rEiPr 7y ago
      I know this reason is often cited as why Apple are the privacy-focused company, but I guess its interesting that Google seem to be focussing more on products lately as well (in comparison to earlier, not in comparison to data-collection). They have their own phone line, tablets, smart speakers (data collection king), headphones etc. So if Google made something out of that market then I guess this distinction could over time diminish?
      - 7y ago
ggg2 7y ago
BlackBerry is selling android phones for a while
- officeplant 7y ago
  It's sad that blackberry had to kill off the last hurrah of BBOS before switching to android. I had a Q5 fully capable of just sideloading whatever android apps I needed that weren't in blackberrys own appstore. That is until google play services weaseled their way into everything.
t0astbread 7y ago
> unless you jailbreak and de-goog it, which is a PITA I've wiped my phone and put LineageOS on it a few weeks ago and I've had no problems whatsoever. (To be fair I should say that my device was officially supported and I don't use any apps that depend on the GSF.)
- Semaphor 7y ago
  So what are you using to replace the google services? Because just lineageOS without a replacement or google makes most apps not work properly.
  - zuron7 7y ago
    You don't need to. Just use apps that do not need Google Play Services. F-Droid helps out with that. I don't miss anything since almost all services I need to use have very good mobile websites. I'm glad I'm not unknowingly sharing a bunch of my data with them.
    - WorldMaker 7y ago
      If I could survive with just apps that don't need Google Play Services I would have seriously considered staying on Windows Phone despite security support ending in November. We've lost the App War. I need multiple Apps that "need" Location Services and Push Notifications just to get what used to be hole punches or stamps on business cards for buy 10 get 1 free sandwiches in 2019. Options like LineageOS and going without Google Play Services might as well be a "dumb phone" in current culture. It's an hilarious joke. Google realized all the real control in Android was in controlling Google Play Services, and as soon as that got locked down people should have been worried. Google wouldn't have had as much power to "kill" Windows Phone that they had if apps didn't matter. (Fwiw, I went back to Apple as that unfortunately seemed the only sane choice to have Apps and some semblance of maybe Privacy.)
  - t0astbread 7y ago
    I don't use any apps that require the Services Framework. (I really just use my phone for HN, Twitter, messaging, basic browsing and public transport.) I know that this isn't applicable to everyone though. Actually, since I've ditched WhatsApp a few days ago, I'm running 100% FOSS (sans some proprietary blobs and all the network services) on my phone.

by harry8 7y ago

jacquesm 7y ago

Dumb phone is a valid choice. And it works just fine, there is absolutely nothing that a smart phone offers that I can not do without, and not having a continuous distraction makes me a lot more productive than I would be otherwise. It's bad enough with the web and 'always on' internet, to have that in my pocket would completely kill my productivity.

janlaureys 7y ago
I appreciate the sentiment but my phone now does so many things that I would really miss if I'd have to get rid of it. GPS and navigation, Mobile Banking, IM because nobody sends text messages anymore, Calendar and quick web searches and a decent camera I'll always carry.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  - GPS and navigation I look at a map before I leave when on foot and in the car I have a navigator. - Mobile Banking Nothing that can't wait until I'm behind a desk. - IM because nobody sends text messages anymore Nobody sends me IM messages because I never used it in the first place. - Calendar Could be useful, once every month or so, but on the whole it is easy enough to do this stuff once I'm back behind my desk, worst case the other side has access and they can send me an invite. This really only comes up when someone on the phone wants to book some kind of appointment when I'm on the road, and in that case I'm actually really happy I am not going to be tempted to look at my phone, it is annoying enough that people expect your phone to be answered at all hours. - quick web searches I do a ton of those, but not when I'm out of the office or meeting people, I've had a case come up once or twice but usually I just make a mental note to check up on something. - a decent camera I'll always carry That's a good one, another one which would work for me would be to have something good to read wherever I go. But those two can be solved quite easily: my dumb phone has a reasonably good camera and there's always a book in my bag.
  - gloflo 7y ago
    Good for you. How is your FTP file synchronisation going? Sarcasm aside, surely you know how much of an outlier you are. Your comment sounds pretty limited on empathy for other lifestyles.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      > Your comment sounds pretty limited on empathy for other lifestyles. That problem is on your end I'm afraid, no judgment call on other lifestyles was implied or intended, I merely documented how I do stuff without commenting on how you do stuff or how I feel you should do stuff. In a nutshell: I'm susceptible to being distracted with an ease that makes toddlers jealous and because of that I have to seriously restrict the kind of effect my environment has on me or I'll happily burn up my whole life without achieving anything. In order to do that I've decided that smartphones - besides being a security risk and a tracking device - are not for me.
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    Do you have any sort of music player with you? My phone is basically my life's soundtrack - music, podcasts, or audiobooks.
    - ocdtrekkie 7y ago
      A shocking number of dumb devices play music, including most dumbphones. Not the parent, but in my personal case I only listen to music in my car, and have my MP3 library synced to a device in my car. It doesn't cost me data and works in the middle of nowhere.
  - CapricornNoble 7y ago
    I'm curious, do you travel internationally? In my experience, unless I do an inordinate amount of prior planning (printing out map directions, itineraries, hotel reservations, etc.) it is very easy to have navigation difficulties in unfamiliar cities with street signs in foreign languages....or no street signs at all. Where do you get an accurate map when you are trying to meet people at a newly-opened cafe in Hanoi's old French Quarter? Nobody can send you an IM? So if you strike up a conversation with a Shenzhen entrepreneur, he wants to stay in contact to talk business and suggests WeChat, your only response is [US phone number] or [email]? No web searches when out of the office? So if your next course of action is contingent upon a piece of information you don't currently have access to, you can't proceed with a decision on-the-spot because you possess no ability to access remote data while you are mobile? I dunno, seems like a lot of potential inefficiencies and lost opportunities compared to dropping $150 on a dual-SIM rugged Android phone from China, and then installing a few apps on it. But hey, if it works for you..... I took a family trip back to America recently and my jaw dropped watching my (74yo) father and his wife use a paper map to navigate to DisneyWorld. They complained that Google was giving them "bad directions". My older brother and I just looked at each other and shook our heads. PICNIC (Problem in chair, not in computer).
jjulius 7y ago
Do you have a dumb phone recommendation, or would any do just fine? I've been seriously considering making the switch to a dumb phone that could just cover calls/texts/work emails.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  So far second hand Nokia's have done me well.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
Aromasin 7y ago
I used to hold this view, until I went and bought myself a dumb device and ended up ditching it a month later. Some apps are just too integral to modern life to lose, and many unavoidable places only function using apps now (my library, parking, bike rental, work access and expenses claims etc). To counter this issue of distraction, I managed to get my app selection down to about 10-12 essentials, all heavily curated so there's nothing that will 'keep me scrolling'. It basically consists of Email, Messaging, Duolingo, edx, Instagram (only following about 200 close friends so my feed is at most 5-8 pictures a day), Uber, Spotify, MyFitnessPal, Audible, and the apps for the aforementioned uses. After removing the "continuous distraction" apps from my phone it's gone from a procrastination machine, back to being the worlds most valuable tool.
war1025 7y ago
I currently use a dumb phone that I got in early 2011. I really wouldn't mind upgrading, but the only dumb phones that are Verizon compatible seem to be flip phones, and I really don't want a flip phone. I honestly rarely use the thing anymore other than to text my mom good morning and call someone maybe once a month to verify plans.
- AliciaWilson 7y ago
  I thought you could change your life and take the right path in terms of education. If this is so then the site can help you https://phdessay.com/ https://phdessay.com/ I think you will always be happy to help from free essay.
w8rbt 7y ago
I was a dumb phone user for years. I carried a refurbished LG 105c for about the last six years. The battery was great. I could go an entire week without charging it. MMS messages started crashing the LG in the past few years and this increasingly got worse. So I got a cheap Samsung smart phone (J35) just this year. MMS messages were the only compelling reason for me to switch (literally the phone would crash every time someone sent me an MMS). I love the smart phone now too. I'm not sure how I got by without one for the last decade, but had my old LG handled MMS messages, I would have never switched. P.S. People often made fun of me for carrying the dumb phone. I'd always quip, "I'm too smart to use a smart phone." Feel free to use that quote when defending yourself ;)
- jacquesm 7y ago
  I don't see any need to defend myself. My choices are mine and this is my life, that's all the defense I'll ever need. Other people are free to do whatever they want to but to position things as though 'apple or android' are the only choices available to me does simply not seem correct. Yes, I'm sure the percentage of tech people without a smartphone is low but outside the tech scene there are still plenty of people without smartphones.

propertymagnate 7y ago

That is hopefully going to change soon - Linux phones are coming: Pinephone (should be early next year, somewhere around $150) https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/ https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/ Librem 5 (should be Q3 2019, $650) https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/

mxuribe 7y ago
More than "linux winning the desktop", i really, really, really hope and dream that more linux phones become available - including LineageOS stuff becoming easier to install on legacy android phones.
- aclsid 7y ago
  I think what you want is already here. Android is Linux on the phone. LineageOS was built on top of AOSP. What we really need though is a replacement for all Google Play Services that is free software, including push notifications.
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    Android is using Linux, but calling it Linux is entirely wrong. It tries very hard to hide any non-portable components from you. The base platform is a virtual machine where you have zero access to any Linux API. They even indent their own API for things Linux already has! (Binder, ashmem, power management...) About the one Linux API you have access to is sockets, if you're writing native code, and there mostly a POSIX subset. (No, you do not really have access to file system directly.) It could run on Minix or Windows or Darwin for all Google cares about - but hardware manufacturers preferred Linux for the price.
vardump 7y ago
I'd love to have something like: * Kernel, drivers and userland I can compile on my own if I want to * 4-8 GB RAM * 4 core Cortex A72 or better wide out-of-order core (no A53, A55 or similar crap, unless it's a big-little configuration) * Good 64-128 GB low latency high IOPS eMMC. Too many devices penny pinch here creating a slow user experience. * 4G (600 Mbps+) or preferably 5G * Good OLED screen, 1080x1920 is probably enough. Although I do like S9+ 1440x2960 screen * Stereo speakers, front and back camera, GPS (+ glonass, etc.), standard set of sensors. * USB-C and headphone jack * MicroSD slot that can actually read & write over 100 megabytes per second. * NO ability for baseband to read and write memory arbitrarily; embedded USB connection or something. * Price below $1000

tobr 7y ago

Is this question a trap? Isn't it rather obvious that Apple, a company that has never really had a business model built on surveillence, is less offensive than Google in this regard?

amelius 7y ago
Yes, but fast forward 5 years, everybody has switched to Apple, and shareholders are getting worried that they might not see any growth this quarter ...
- HillaryBriss 7y ago
  Another risk to Apple would be that the regulatory machine of government more or less brings the Google/FB data vacuum under control in the next 5 years and consumers stop paying super high prices for Apple hardware and ecosystem membership. Because they trust Google/FB again. Ok, on second thought, that's an infinitesimally small risk.
- ahuth 7y ago
  This is always a possibility. At least Apple has a business model based on selling devices and services. Unlike Google (or Facebook, for example), monetizing users / analytics / tracking isn't the only option available to them. So you're right - Apple could always go down a bad path. But because of their respective business models, I'm more confident in Apple than Google.
  - 2T1Qka0rEiPr 7y ago
    I know this reason is often cited as why Apple are the privacy-focused company, but I guess its interesting that Google seem to be focussing more on products lately as well (in comparison to earlier, not in comparison to data-collection). They have their own phone line, tablets, smart speakers (data collection king), headphones etc. So if Google made something out of that market then I guess this distinction could over time diminish?
    - 7y ago

ggg2 7y ago

BlackBerry is selling android phones for a while

officeplant 7y ago
It's sad that blackberry had to kill off the last hurrah of BBOS before switching to android. I had a Q5 fully capable of just sideloading whatever android apps I needed that weren't in blackberrys own appstore. That is until google play services weaseled their way into everything.

t0astbread 7y ago

> unless you jailbreak and de-goog it, which is a PITA I've wiped my phone and put LineageOS on it a few weeks ago and I've had no problems whatsoever. (To be fair I should say that my device was officially supported and I don't use any apps that depend on the GSF.)

Semaphor 7y ago
So what are you using to replace the google services? Because just lineageOS without a replacement or google makes most apps not work properly.
- zuron7 7y ago
  You don't need to. Just use apps that do not need Google Play Services. F-Droid helps out with that. I don't miss anything since almost all services I need to use have very good mobile websites. I'm glad I'm not unknowingly sharing a bunch of my data with them.
  - WorldMaker 7y ago
    If I could survive with just apps that don't need Google Play Services I would have seriously considered staying on Windows Phone despite security support ending in November. We've lost the App War. I need multiple Apps that "need" Location Services and Push Notifications just to get what used to be hole punches or stamps on business cards for buy 10 get 1 free sandwiches in 2019. Options like LineageOS and going without Google Play Services might as well be a "dumb phone" in current culture. It's an hilarious joke. Google realized all the real control in Android was in controlling Google Play Services, and as soon as that got locked down people should have been worried. Google wouldn't have had as much power to "kill" Windows Phone that they had if apps didn't matter. (Fwiw, I went back to Apple as that unfortunately seemed the only sane choice to have Apps and some semblance of maybe Privacy.)
- t0astbread 7y ago
  I don't use any apps that require the Services Framework. (I really just use my phone for HN, Twitter, messaging, basic browsing and public transport.) I know that this isn't applicable to everyone though. Actually, since I've ditched WhatsApp a few days ago, I'm running 100% FOSS (sans some proprietary blobs and all the network services) on my phone.