12 ms·

HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

228 points by sexy_seedbox 7y ago

NotPaidToPost 7y ago
Whatever we think of the mainland Chinese justice system, and there is indeed a lot to be said about it, the current situation is rather strange. Indeed, it seems quite extraordinary that someone could not be sent from one territory of the PRC to another one to face trial.
- ksec 7y ago
  It is a feature, not a bug. Someone has the great insight to foresee what could happen 30 years ago.
  - NotPaidToPost 7y ago
    I thought we could have mature discussions on HN. I was wrong. The current situation made some sense when HK was a colony of the British: The Brits made the law and did not cooperate too much with "the reds". But now, as someone looking at it from abroad, it makes no sense at all. This is not about "foresight" or anything like that. It does not help someone's cause to downvote comments and to refuse to discuss on facts, and to riot. In fact it make people look like "red guards". Edit: This has nothing to do with "one country, two systems". The principle is respected here with HK having to pass specific legislation according to its own legal system in order to allow extradition to mainland China. The point is that it makes no sense to have extradition treaties with, say, the US but not with mainland China for a Chinese territory. The insults and the fact that people now track my comments history to downvote all of them on random topics prove my preceding point about "red guards"... Disgraceful tactics.
    - marcinzm 7y ago
      Hong Kong rejoined China under specific agreements. Those agreements were in place because the people of Hong Kong did not want to becomes just another piece of China. As such they retained high levels of legal, government and economic autonomy. Colloquially it's known as "one country, two systems." So, yes, someone probably foresaw this issue and didn't want Hong Kong to become a puppet of China used as a giant fly swatter after re-unification. You're probably being down voted due to the utter lack of history and context (ie: lack of basic research) you're showing which generally makes intelligent discussions pointless. edit: A example of similar systems in the west are native reservations which enjoy varying levels of autonomy despite being part of the country they're located in.
    - ksec 7y ago
      1. Which part of the discussion were not mature? 2. The situation is not loophole left by the British. But it was specifically left in place so the one country two system would work for the next ( then ) 50 years. To guarantee the certain freedom of the Hong Kong people which was clearly listed out in the Sino-British Joint Declaration. 3. It is not a Riot. ( I am sorry but that has to be one of the most insulting thing ever said ) No one started a Riot, What was once, one of the most peaceful protest. by 1M people, was fired with Rubber Bullet and Later Metal Bullet to eyes and head shot ( Both in ER ), Along with Tear Gas with NO Prior warning, Against a group of people with bare hands and no weapon.
      - luckylion 7y ago
        > 1. Which part of the discussion were not mature? For my personal taste: the "I don't agree with this opinion so I will downvote this comment instead of replying with an argument" part that many users engage in. I see two explanations: infantile "NO NO NO" and malicious "if I downvote this, it will be buried and fewer others will see it". Given the design of the voting and flagging system and the fact that it's not discouraged, it appears that this is a desired behavior.
        darkpuma 7y ago
        > "I don't agree with this opinion so I will downvote this comment" If that bothers you, then HN is not the site for you. Downvotes for disagreeing has received the thumb of approval from PG[0]. Upvotes are for agree and downvotes are for disagree. On reddit people like to pretend otherwise (even though it's true in practice there as well), but here on HN there are no bones about it. [0] one example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658683 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658683
        NotPaidToPost 7y ago
        Hence the groupthink we see all the time... Not least on such a topic which is 'owned' by extremists who will not tolerate even a shred of non-conformity. It's hypocrisy when mods say otherwise.
    - ksec 7y ago
      >The point is that it makes no sense to have extradition treaties with, say, the US but not with mainland China for a Chinese territory. It also make no sense for Hong Kong to have its own currency, HKD, pegged to USD. Along with its own laws and system. Even driving is on the "wrong" side of the road as one might say. And it is everything about the One Country Two System which is promised and now trying to be broken. You might have a point if this was happening in 2046. >The insults and the fact that people now track my comments history to downvote all of them on random topics prove my preceding point about "red guards"... Disgraceful tactics. HN can downvote comment that is well pass a few hours. You can only upvote pass comments. And since most of your recent comment are about the same topic, may be they just happen to disagree with you.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > Whatever we think of the mainland Chinese justice system Beijing just unilaterally broke the Hong Kong handover agreement. In that agreement, China explicitly agreed that there would be two systems within PRC territory [1]. There is no way to sue the CPC in a Chinese court to enforce Hong Kong’s rights under the treaty. In Hong Kong (as in Taiwan, Japan, Britain and the U.S.) the government is answerable to the law. In China, it is not. That is the crux of the issue. The way Beijing is cramming down this legislation is, funnily enough, the argument against it. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong
DocTomoe 7y ago
Meanwhile, there is that Chinese Huawei Executive who is being held hostage in Canada as a trading chip in a trade war, waiting for her extradition to the US on the invented charges of having had traded with Iran (which is completely legal in China). If anything, I'd say it is a wonder that China has not started taking US Americans and Canadians hostage for the crime of being US American and/or Canadian.
- i_am_nomad 7y ago
  China has done precisely that: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/16/canadians-detained-in-china-charged-with-espionage https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/16/canadians-deta...
  - ShorsHammer 7y ago
    Somewhat tangential: Do you think there are no spies operating in China whom are known to the current government? Why would China choose some random Westerners over known intel assets while knowing full well the case will appear so prominently on the world stage? Tourism makes up 10% of their economy. Nations tolerate this stuff and are well aware of who is who, it's how it is. Kicking out a known operative means another unknown will replace them. Better the enemy you know and such. There's a recent video from the CIA on the lengths they go to disguise embassy-tasked folk and how they get them out into the _world_. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JASUsVY5YJ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JASUsVY5YJ8
    - some_random 7y ago
      They just execute the spies. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spies-espionage.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spie...
      - close04 7y ago
        Do we know what other countries do in such cases? The US has consistently addressed possible terrorists with black sites or drone strikes (executions). So is it beyond the realm of possibility that at least parts of undercover spy networks are dealt with in similar ways? And is there any expectation that a newspaper would be able to exercise the right to free speech and report on this given that a gag order is enough to prevent any such attempts under the threat of prison time (possibly in one of those black sites)? Countries (especially superpowers) have been known to remove any semblance of due process, freedom, and security in the name of... freedom and security. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act P.S. I expect downvotes for my comment. I don't expect any will be accompanied by any attempts at a counter-argument. And my comment is not about whatabboutism, just that you can't single out someone unless they are actually singular in their actions.
throwaway2048 7y ago
For all the vaunted talk about how the CCP plans in terms of centuries and how they are so much more far sighted than western politicians, the continual abuse of Hong Kong's special status seems extremely short sighted, because it is going to make peaceful re-unification of Taiwan completely impossible.
- re-actor 7y ago
  I don't think CCP has put on any pretence about desiring peaceful re-unification.
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    Oh, I'm pretty sure they'd take it if they could get it. They just don't see any realistic chance that they could ever get it.
- duxup 7y ago
  There might be two things at play, the first described in the article that this is really a ploy to get "countries that have extradition treaties with Hong Kong to either renegotiate them successfully " possibly in favour of China. Also Hong Kong's status might just be a constant question that if Hong Kong is part of China but has some local autonomy....why can't other parts of China? Especially if there was an economic crisis and Hong Kong faired better... Easing them in might be secondary to domestic concerns.
  - Bakary 7y ago
    These already exist, there are 5 autonomous regions based around minority groups. There's also Macau which has a similar status to Hong Kong even if the system is quite different.
- nicolas_t 7y ago
  CCP planned in term of decades and were more far sighted than western politicians. This changed with the rise of Xi Jing Ping who is a short sighted petty autocrat but unfortunately extremely good at political maneuvering to concentrate power in his hands and undoing what little checks were instituted by Deng Xiaoping. I had high hopes for China's future back when I lived there but that is no longer the case with the current government.
wiggler00m 7y ago
I asked a Hong Kong lawyer this week about the proposed extradition law. In particular, of the following, who would it apply to: a) Chinese nationals; b) HK nationals; c) foreign nationals. He advised it would apply to all three. Edit: he also said it's not impossible the bill will be withdrawn.
- 188201 7y ago
  Yes, it is true. It is confirmed by pro-China lawyer in HK local newspaper. The prosecution of Huawei CFO make China targeting foreign nationals in Hong Kong for revenge. Moreover, the issue is not only about politics, but also economic. The most concern is about how China could use this to threaten any person including foreign nationals in Hong Kong. Have a business disputed with some Chinese business while in Hong Kong? Then, you could be extradited to China any time soon. It is not safe to do business in Hong Kong anymore. If this bill is passed, then it is expected Hong Kong would be completely replaced by Singapore within some time of period for foreign companies in Hong Kong to leave.
  - hyperpallium 7y ago
    Does China still have enough to gain, to make it worthwhile to destroy such an incredibly valuable asset?
    - peteretep 7y ago
      At least some portion of HKG’s loss will be the mainland’s gain, so there’s that to factor in
    - mawbie 7y ago
      > incredibly valuable asset Is it though?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - 188201 7y ago
      I can't really rationalize why China would throw stone on its own feet, but there are two reasons I could think of. One reason could be president Xi just can't back off because Xi is like Kim Jong-un in China. Xi has killed some of his political enemies and throw many of them to jail. If Xi shows any weakness to his internal enemies, he could not live long because he is playing too tough. It's like how a mafia boss works. Another reason is taking back some US dollar from HK reserve. China is facing insufficient foreign currency for importing goods for production, or even food in trade war with US. One example is pork production, which China has large export in the world, but it relied on corn imported from US, so facing increased tax harm pork production in China a lot, and added up with African swine fever, the situation is even worse. So, how would extradition law help? Basically there are some list of merchant in the hand of China who leaves China due to business disputed, bankrupt or any economic related prosecution. In China, they could start the court even with the absence of suspect. So, the court could proceed anytime and enforce any punishment without a lawyer to protect the suspect right. Without extradition law, it doesn't matter if the suspect left China. After the extradition law is passed, China would extradite those wanted list. And those wanted list could pay back some foreign currency in exchange. Though, it is really just sacrificing long term advantage for short term benefit. Both reasons are really dumb but they can't stop. Chinese using nationalism to justify the party existence, since the party make China a strong country. But if it is not, then the party would start falling apart.
mitfahrener 7y ago
HK is part of China. How do you send someone from China to China.
- kzrdude 7y ago
  American Samoa is part of the USA, yet they are not citizens. So there are always more details than just "part of" or not.
- tialaramex 7y ago
  One country. Two systems. The _system_ in Hong Kong is very different. It isn't uncommon to have such internal differences. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is likewise a single sovereign entity, often abbreviated as just "the UK" but for example abortion is _a crime_ in Northern Ireland, whereas it's offered as a normal part of the NHS on the mainland. Likewise Scotland has separate laws even though there's no discernible border, no more than a small street sign saying "You are now entering Scotland".
egao1980 7y ago
How this is worse than US extraditions / kidnapping of foreign nationals abroad? Never mind Assange there are plenty of people arrested outside of US and moved to US prison.
- naringas 7y ago
  the USA ("Western") system has to at least fabricate some charges or destroy the target's reputation. the PRC doesn't seem to have such 'cumbersome' restrictions.
  - egao1980 7y ago
    Tell that to the guys in Gitmo. Though they might be not nice and totally guilty nobody bothered to formally charge them.
    - frozenport 7y ago
      They were really POWs, but the Bush administration had too many legal obstacles to declaring them as such.
    - gamblor956 7y ago
      The guys in Gitmo were captured on the battlefield so the alternative is that they could be dead. But let's focus on the lack of process in taking them captive instead of just killing then.
      - codedokode 7y ago
        There are international treaties about handling prisoners of war. The thing is that US found a loophole not to admit that they are prisoners of war. What US did is similar to what their enemies like Taliban do.
        gamblor956 7y ago
        The US didn't "find a loophole." Prisoner of war protections under international treaties only apply to state participants, meaning members of a state army. Terrorists and other non-sanctioned armed forces are not protected by treaties between states because they are not fighting on behalf of a state. This is a recognized and intended exception to the rules governing POWs.
ddffre 7y ago
Chinese justice just like the justice political prisoners used to received in the USSR.
Maverick4_ 7y ago
On-Off, PR China opened a lots of war fronts all around it's own border plus some optics and postures to counter USA in different continents. But, those seems manufactured from the false perception of it's new found military superiority and firm financial backbone --- but point is, PR China has no practical and real war experience, but simulation and drills. Last time it lost a war with Vietnam (Despite Vietnam was all just finished their war against USA) and get defeated. Few years back, it had almost a war with India in Doklam sector as it allegedly captured Bhutan sovereign territory (and India being it's protector as historical treaties involved into the confrontation) Several months each others army positioned in frontline with 2 minutes call to annihilate each other for a barren inhospitable mountainous position. PR China made a secret truce (as it was a zero sum consequence, had been it triggered as flash point -- both nations would have been lost many young lives as well as collateral damage to both of their cities and developed regions (both side capable to strike each others cities with both conventional warheads as well as Nuke). Under (seems) a tacit understanding both side without insulting each other retreated (Xi-Modi private goodwill and personal chemistry worked there; despites hawks were more interested in a full scale war! Meanwhile, PR China is officially almost in break even point due to President Trump's Trade War. It definitely made PR China more susceptible and venerable than any militaristic adventure by any nation under the sky. Products spiting out of the assembly lines, but no buyers! And no producer ever be interested to increase unsold inventories. Recent motion by CPC through it's proxies in Hong Kong is not more than a strategic move to divert and distract the attention of domestic constituency. PR China is infamous for unilateral obnoxious and self defeating geo political moves (Example - Air Defense Zone Declaration over South China Sea, Tibet, Claims on Far East Russia, Islands of Japan/Philipines and they does those things to test the waters. It was Mao's copy book tactic to claim Big and settle in some discount rather than acceding to others real and factually correct original claim. Another factor, it's foreign reserves depletion and huge stock of FR in Hong Kong, attributed to it's liberal economic model of financial management. Thirdly, 30th anniversary of own miscarriaged suppression of democratic voices both inside in discreet and overt dissidence in Han diaspora all over the world. So, it's not such a long period planning, but contingency to make three destructive vectors which CPC is all awry and confused about. Meanwhile, 300 years of free society habits of Hong Kong in Haka guys seldom domitable and prone to subdued by Red eyes and iron fist --- everything is acceptance and psychological conformation; we are afraid, Hong Kongers would accept Peking aka Beijing's armtwisting and brainwashing progrom. Another important aspect, even Beijing don't want to import free, freedom and liberty obsessed people into it's already passive and conforming 'settled psyches' to get infected by the worldview of democracy. Overall, it's nothing more than a distraction and diversion act -- not calculated in anticipation; but imposed as damage controller in domestic exhibition.

228 points by sexy_seedbox 7y ago

Whatever we think of the mainland Chinese justice system, and there is indeed a lot to be said about it, the current situation is rather strange. Indeed, it seems quite extraordinary that someone could not be sent from one territory of the PRC to another one to face trial.

ksec 7y ago
It is a feature, not a bug. Someone has the great insight to foresee what could happen 30 years ago.
- NotPaidToPost 7y ago
  I thought we could have mature discussions on HN. I was wrong. The current situation made some sense when HK was a colony of the British: The Brits made the law and did not cooperate too much with "the reds". But now, as someone looking at it from abroad, it makes no sense at all. This is not about "foresight" or anything like that. It does not help someone's cause to downvote comments and to refuse to discuss on facts, and to riot. In fact it make people look like "red guards". Edit: This has nothing to do with "one country, two systems". The principle is respected here with HK having to pass specific legislation according to its own legal system in order to allow extradition to mainland China. The point is that it makes no sense to have extradition treaties with, say, the US but not with mainland China for a Chinese territory. The insults and the fact that people now track my comments history to downvote all of them on random topics prove my preceding point about "red guards"... Disgraceful tactics.
  - marcinzm 7y ago
    Hong Kong rejoined China under specific agreements. Those agreements were in place because the people of Hong Kong did not want to becomes just another piece of China. As such they retained high levels of legal, government and economic autonomy. Colloquially it's known as "one country, two systems." So, yes, someone probably foresaw this issue and didn't want Hong Kong to become a puppet of China used as a giant fly swatter after re-unification. You're probably being down voted due to the utter lack of history and context (ie: lack of basic research) you're showing which generally makes intelligent discussions pointless. edit: A example of similar systems in the west are native reservations which enjoy varying levels of autonomy despite being part of the country they're located in.
  - ksec 7y ago
    1. Which part of the discussion were not mature? 2. The situation is not loophole left by the British. But it was specifically left in place so the one country two system would work for the next ( then ) 50 years. To guarantee the certain freedom of the Hong Kong people which was clearly listed out in the Sino-British Joint Declaration. 3. It is not a Riot. ( I am sorry but that has to be one of the most insulting thing ever said ) No one started a Riot, What was once, one of the most peaceful protest. by 1M people, was fired with Rubber Bullet and Later Metal Bullet to eyes and head shot ( Both in ER ), Along with Tear Gas with NO Prior warning, Against a group of people with bare hands and no weapon.
    - luckylion 7y ago
      > 1. Which part of the discussion were not mature? For my personal taste: the "I don't agree with this opinion so I will downvote this comment instead of replying with an argument" part that many users engage in. I see two explanations: infantile "NO NO NO" and malicious "if I downvote this, it will be buried and fewer others will see it". Given the design of the voting and flagging system and the fact that it's not discouraged, it appears that this is a desired behavior.
      - darkpuma 7y ago
        > "I don't agree with this opinion so I will downvote this comment" If that bothers you, then HN is not the site for you. Downvotes for disagreeing has received the thumb of approval from PG[0]. Upvotes are for agree and downvotes are for disagree. On reddit people like to pretend otherwise (even though it's true in practice there as well), but here on HN there are no bones about it. [0] one example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658683 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658683
        NotPaidToPost 7y ago
        Hence the groupthink we see all the time... Not least on such a topic which is 'owned' by extremists who will not tolerate even a shred of non-conformity. It's hypocrisy when mods say otherwise.
  - ksec 7y ago
    >The point is that it makes no sense to have extradition treaties with, say, the US but not with mainland China for a Chinese territory. It also make no sense for Hong Kong to have its own currency, HKD, pegged to USD. Along with its own laws and system. Even driving is on the "wrong" side of the road as one might say. And it is everything about the One Country Two System which is promised and now trying to be broken. You might have a point if this was happening in 2046. >The insults and the fact that people now track my comments history to downvote all of them on random topics prove my preceding point about "red guards"... Disgraceful tactics. HN can downvote comment that is well pass a few hours. You can only upvote pass comments. And since most of your recent comment are about the same topic, may be they just happen to disagree with you.
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> Whatever we think of the mainland Chinese justice system Beijing just unilaterally broke the Hong Kong handover agreement. In that agreement, China explicitly agreed that there would be two systems within PRC territory [1]. There is no way to sue the CPC in a Chinese court to enforce Hong Kong’s rights under the treaty. In Hong Kong (as in Taiwan, Japan, Britain and the U.S.) the government is answerable to the law. In China, it is not. That is the crux of the issue. The way Beijing is cramming down this legislation is, funnily enough, the argument against it. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong

DocTomoe 7y ago

Meanwhile, there is that Chinese Huawei Executive who is being held hostage in Canada as a trading chip in a trade war, waiting for her extradition to the US on the invented charges of having had traded with Iran (which is completely legal in China). If anything, I'd say it is a wonder that China has not started taking US Americans and Canadians hostage for the crime of being US American and/or Canadian.

i_am_nomad 7y ago
China has done precisely that: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/16/canadians-detained-in-china-charged-with-espionage https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/16/canadians-deta...
- ShorsHammer 7y ago
  Somewhat tangential: Do you think there are no spies operating in China whom are known to the current government? Why would China choose some random Westerners over known intel assets while knowing full well the case will appear so prominently on the world stage? Tourism makes up 10% of their economy. Nations tolerate this stuff and are well aware of who is who, it's how it is. Kicking out a known operative means another unknown will replace them. Better the enemy you know and such. There's a recent video from the CIA on the lengths they go to disguise embassy-tasked folk and how they get them out into the _world_. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JASUsVY5YJ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JASUsVY5YJ8
  - some_random 7y ago
    They just execute the spies. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spies-espionage.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spie...
    - close04 7y ago
      Do we know what other countries do in such cases? The US has consistently addressed possible terrorists with black sites or drone strikes (executions). So is it beyond the realm of possibility that at least parts of undercover spy networks are dealt with in similar ways? And is there any expectation that a newspaper would be able to exercise the right to free speech and report on this given that a gag order is enough to prevent any such attempts under the threat of prison time (possibly in one of those black sites)? Countries (especially superpowers) have been known to remove any semblance of due process, freedom, and security in the name of... freedom and security. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act P.S. I expect downvotes for my comment. I don't expect any will be accompanied by any attempts at a counter-argument. And my comment is not about whatabboutism, just that you can't single out someone unless they are actually singular in their actions.

throwaway2048 7y ago

For all the vaunted talk about how the CCP plans in terms of centuries and how they are so much more far sighted than western politicians, the continual abuse of Hong Kong's special status seems extremely short sighted, because it is going to make peaceful re-unification of Taiwan completely impossible.

re-actor 7y ago
I don't think CCP has put on any pretence about desiring peaceful re-unification.
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  Oh, I'm pretty sure they'd take it if they could get it. They just don't see any realistic chance that they could ever get it.
duxup 7y ago
There might be two things at play, the first described in the article that this is really a ploy to get "countries that have extradition treaties with Hong Kong to either renegotiate them successfully " possibly in favour of China. Also Hong Kong's status might just be a constant question that if Hong Kong is part of China but has some local autonomy....why can't other parts of China? Especially if there was an economic crisis and Hong Kong faired better... Easing them in might be secondary to domestic concerns.
- Bakary 7y ago
  These already exist, there are 5 autonomous regions based around minority groups. There's also Macau which has a similar status to Hong Kong even if the system is quite different.
nicolas_t 7y ago
CCP planned in term of decades and were more far sighted than western politicians. This changed with the rise of Xi Jing Ping who is a short sighted petty autocrat but unfortunately extremely good at political maneuvering to concentrate power in his hands and undoing what little checks were instituted by Deng Xiaoping. I had high hopes for China's future back when I lived there but that is no longer the case with the current government.

wiggler00m 7y ago

I asked a Hong Kong lawyer this week about the proposed extradition law. In particular, of the following, who would it apply to: a) Chinese nationals; b) HK nationals; c) foreign nationals. He advised it would apply to all three. Edit: he also said it's not impossible the bill will be withdrawn.

188201 7y ago
Yes, it is true. It is confirmed by pro-China lawyer in HK local newspaper. The prosecution of Huawei CFO make China targeting foreign nationals in Hong Kong for revenge. Moreover, the issue is not only about politics, but also economic. The most concern is about how China could use this to threaten any person including foreign nationals in Hong Kong. Have a business disputed with some Chinese business while in Hong Kong? Then, you could be extradited to China any time soon. It is not safe to do business in Hong Kong anymore. If this bill is passed, then it is expected Hong Kong would be completely replaced by Singapore within some time of period for foreign companies in Hong Kong to leave.
- hyperpallium 7y ago
  Does China still have enough to gain, to make it worthwhile to destroy such an incredibly valuable asset?
  - peteretep 7y ago
    At least some portion of HKG’s loss will be the mainland’s gain, so there’s that to factor in
  - mawbie 7y ago
    > incredibly valuable asset Is it though?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - 188201 7y ago
    I can't really rationalize why China would throw stone on its own feet, but there are two reasons I could think of. One reason could be president Xi just can't back off because Xi is like Kim Jong-un in China. Xi has killed some of his political enemies and throw many of them to jail. If Xi shows any weakness to his internal enemies, he could not live long because he is playing too tough. It's like how a mafia boss works. Another reason is taking back some US dollar from HK reserve. China is facing insufficient foreign currency for importing goods for production, or even food in trade war with US. One example is pork production, which China has large export in the world, but it relied on corn imported from US, so facing increased tax harm pork production in China a lot, and added up with African swine fever, the situation is even worse. So, how would extradition law help? Basically there are some list of merchant in the hand of China who leaves China due to business disputed, bankrupt or any economic related prosecution. In China, they could start the court even with the absence of suspect. So, the court could proceed anytime and enforce any punishment without a lawyer to protect the suspect right. Without extradition law, it doesn't matter if the suspect left China. After the extradition law is passed, China would extradite those wanted list. And those wanted list could pay back some foreign currency in exchange. Though, it is really just sacrificing long term advantage for short term benefit. Both reasons are really dumb but they can't stop. Chinese using nationalism to justify the party existence, since the party make China a strong country. But if it is not, then the party would start falling apart.

mitfahrener 7y ago

HK is part of China. How do you send someone from China to China.

kzrdude 7y ago
American Samoa is part of the USA, yet they are not citizens. So there are always more details than just "part of" or not.
tialaramex 7y ago
One country. Two systems. The _system_ in Hong Kong is very different. It isn't uncommon to have such internal differences. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is likewise a single sovereign entity, often abbreviated as just "the UK" but for example abortion is _a crime_ in Northern Ireland, whereas it's offered as a normal part of the NHS on the mainland. Likewise Scotland has separate laws even though there's no discernible border, no more than a small street sign saying "You are now entering Scotland".

egao1980 7y ago

How this is worse than US extraditions / kidnapping of foreign nationals abroad? Never mind Assange there are plenty of people arrested outside of US and moved to US prison.

naringas 7y ago
the USA ("Western") system has to at least fabricate some charges or destroy the target's reputation. the PRC doesn't seem to have such 'cumbersome' restrictions.
- egao1980 7y ago
  Tell that to the guys in Gitmo. Though they might be not nice and totally guilty nobody bothered to formally charge them.
  - frozenport 7y ago
    They were really POWs, but the Bush administration had too many legal obstacles to declaring them as such.
  - gamblor956 7y ago
    The guys in Gitmo were captured on the battlefield so the alternative is that they could be dead. But let's focus on the lack of process in taking them captive instead of just killing then.
    - codedokode 7y ago
      There are international treaties about handling prisoners of war. The thing is that US found a loophole not to admit that they are prisoners of war. What US did is similar to what their enemies like Taliban do.
      - gamblor956 7y ago
        The US didn't "find a loophole." Prisoner of war protections under international treaties only apply to state participants, meaning members of a state army. Terrorists and other non-sanctioned armed forces are not protected by treaties between states because they are not fighting on behalf of a state. This is a recognized and intended exception to the rules governing POWs.

ddffre 7y ago

Chinese justice just like the justice political prisoners used to received in the USSR.

Maverick4_ 7y ago

On-Off, PR China opened a lots of war fronts all around it's own border plus some optics and postures to counter USA in different continents. But, those seems manufactured from the false perception of it's new found military superiority and firm financial backbone --- but point is, PR China has no practical and real war experience, but simulation and drills. Last time it lost a war with Vietnam (Despite Vietnam was all just finished their war against USA) and get defeated. Few years back, it had almost a war with India in Doklam sector as it allegedly captured Bhutan sovereign territory (and India being it's protector as historical treaties involved into the confrontation) Several months each others army positioned in frontline with 2 minutes call to annihilate each other for a barren inhospitable mountainous position. PR China made a secret truce (as it was a zero sum consequence, had been it triggered as flash point -- both nations would have been lost many young lives as well as collateral damage to both of their cities and developed regions (both side capable to strike each others cities with both conventional warheads as well as Nuke). Under (seems) a tacit understanding both side without insulting each other retreated (Xi-Modi private goodwill and personal chemistry worked there; despites hawks were more interested in a full scale war! Meanwhile, PR China is officially almost in break even point due to President Trump's Trade War. It definitely made PR China more susceptible and venerable than any militaristic adventure by any nation under the sky. Products spiting out of the assembly lines, but no buyers! And no producer ever be interested to increase unsold inventories. Recent motion by CPC through it's proxies in Hong Kong is not more than a strategic move to divert and distract the attention of domestic constituency. PR China is infamous for unilateral obnoxious and self defeating geo political moves (Example - Air Defense Zone Declaration over South China Sea, Tibet, Claims on Far East Russia, Islands of Japan/Philipines and they does those things to test the waters. It was Mao's copy book tactic to claim Big and settle in some discount rather than acceding to others real and factually correct original claim. Another factor, it's foreign reserves depletion and huge stock of FR in Hong Kong, attributed to it's liberal economic model of financial management. Thirdly, 30th anniversary of own miscarriaged suppression of democratic voices both inside in discreet and overt dissidence in Han diaspora all over the world. So, it's not such a long period planning, but contingency to make three destructive vectors which CPC is all awry and confused about. Meanwhile, 300 years of free society habits of Hong Kong in Haka guys seldom domitable and prone to subdued by Red eyes and iron fist --- everything is acceptance and psychological conformation; we are afraid, Hong Kongers would accept Peking aka Beijing's armtwisting and brainwashing progrom. Another important aspect, even Beijing don't want to import free, freedom and liberty obsessed people into it's already passive and conforming 'settled psyches' to get infected by the worldview of democracy. Overall, it's nothing more than a distraction and diversion act -- not calculated in anticipation; but imposed as damage controller in domestic exhibition.