10 ms·

This 9-5 mentality being imposed in a way that if your sleep pattern is an owl, you're kinda ostracized and viewed as an issue you need to fix, has been going o

by Zenst 7y ago

This 9-5 mentality being imposed in a way that if your sleep pattern is an owl, you're kinda ostracized and viewed as an issue you need to fix, has been going on forever. When the crux suggestion from this `research` is to go to bed 2-3 hours earlier and wake up 2-3 hours earlier and presuming the person does not have DSPS (Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome) or other genetic trait that causes this is, and always is, offencive. The way we treat night owls is akin to mental health in the 40's. Not everybody works 9-5, not every job can be fitted into a 9-5. But many of the jobs allocated 9-5 could equally benefit from flexi-time and have those who wake up early come in earlier and those who wake up late, come in later. Covering more hours, and cater for those who are equally not 9-5 people. It's time work hours got some research, not the people being forced into this arbitrary cookie-cutter mentality. Some companies already do flexi-time and cater for such people, but time and time again, the media and research go to mentality is in viewing such peoples as an issue in a way that parallels many forms of negative science we have seen historically upon many differences between humans. People's sleep patterns are not unified, not even binary, and people should be able to find the sleep pattern that works for them and not be forced into all wearing the same dictated sleep pattern. With that, the way to boost wellbeing of night owls is: 1) Stop treating them as an issue but an opportunity and embrace that diversity. 2) See point one and stop repeating the same mistakes with different categorisation.

scardine 7y ago
Well, in my trade (software development) it is becoming irrelevant with more and more companies embracing remote working. I'm a night owl living in Brazil so when I take a job in CT I can sleep 2 hours more and still be seen as an early bird. I can sleep even more if the main office is in the west cost. São Paulo is a huge, sleepless city (10 million citizens), you have excellent 24 x 7 options for almost everything.
Zenst 7y ago
I'd also add that by forcing a 9-5 mentality we create a situation which has everybody traveling to and from work at the same time, yielding delays adding to stress, pollution... Not saying that by solving the 9-5 mentality we will solve climate change, but it sure would be a measurable improvement on that front as well as mental health as a whole. Maybe somebody should research that.
- wwweston 7y ago
  Capitalists: let's use markets to efficiently allocate resources! Also nominal capitalists: let's dictate labor schedules so that everyone has no choice but to simultaneously compete for available transport.
  - jccooper 7y ago
    A sensible outcome if communication and other network losses from lack of co-location outweigh the costs of high peak transportation requirements and the costs of those being under-provisioned. Which was probably very true in the past, and while changing is probably still true.
    - wwweston 7y ago
      Granted, but maybe the most curious thing about it is less the outcome than the mechanism -- there's apparently not an aggregately negotiated process that's market-like for arriving at the schedule for an organization. I suppose I can imagine that perhaps at some point maybe there was a diversity of choices, and perhaps some critical plurality settled around 9-5 external facing availability, and once that happened, others that did the same had an inter-firm communication efficiency advantage, leading to wide adoption, but that's a just-so story rather than a studied opinion. Anyone know the actual history? And that's a more macro scale. Internally, one presumes that either: * It doesn't occur to most management to think about different ways of doing scheduling at all * They've thought about it and it seems that the cost of aggregating an adaptive schedule is larger than the cost of dictating one (especially if most of the latter costs can truly be externalized!) * Real day-to-day and career incentives for management reward 9-5 schedules
      - hinkley 7y ago
        The managers want everything run on their schedule so they can keep an eye on things. That is the process, for better or worse. I've worked at two or three startups (and heard of others) where, when it was time to move to bigger offices, there was a long discussion about moving the company out to the suburbs. Everyone hired on because the job was downtown, except who? Management. Now that we're doing well they want to make their lives easier. It came to some very angry conversations and threats of quitting before they would relent. If memory serves, none of these individuals were of the facilitator school of thought, where the manager's job is to make sure everything is running smoothly.
buildzr 7y ago
I'm not so sure - if it's easy enough for you to adjust your schedule as a "night owl", it's possibly something worth considering. Personally I'm mainly on a night owl schedule because I feel like I get less enjoyment and focus out of the day if I split my free time between morning and evening.
y96V89C668e7Q74 7y ago
Hey, thank you for this, I'm glad someone said this. It sounds like you know a lot about this. Are there any companies known for flexible hours the way that some companies are famous for remote work? As a night person, I've always felt a bit hopeless with fitting into the career world. Even having officially been diagnosed with DSPS I find that few people take it seriously. It's not something I would ever feel comfortable telling a prospective or current employer that I have, as I feel like I'd probably get laughed at and told that it's not real. I've realized that whether or not I believe in DPSD or even call it by that name is irrelevant. What I do know is some things lead to better quality of sleep, better quality work, and better happiness. It's nice to know that the habits mentioned in the article are effective, even though they aren't as good as actual acceptance of the way of being.
- stronglikedan 7y ago
  A fellow night owl friend of mine lives on the East coast and does remote work for a company on the West coast, during their normal business hours. I must admit to a bit of jealously.
  - wool_gather 7y ago
    I have the opposite spatial arrangement, and I'm honestly not sure how long I'm going to be able to keep it up. It can be a serious drag. Although I have rediscovered the glory of naptime.
  - rhino369 7y ago
    I worked on a west coast based team in an east coast office for a while. It was pretty great until I had to work on a project on both coasts. I had calls scheduled anytime from 9am til 8pm.
world32 7y ago
I have also read a study (can find a link if somebody wants it) that observed bushmen in the kalahari (or somewhere like that - mostly untouched by modern civilisation) and found that the distribution of sleeping patterns (i.e. night owls vs early birds) was pretty uniform. They also found that because of this, there was always somebody in the tribe who was awake at any given point. They theorised an evolutionary advantage to this in that there is always somebody awake to keep watch.
- privong 7y ago
  A similar evolutionary argument was put forward in "Why We Sleep"[0] by Matthew Walker. Its mention in the book was less specific, so I'm not sure if it's referring to the same study. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Sleep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Sleep
- jhncls 7y ago
  Maybe you are referring to David Samson's study of the Hadza tribe in Northern Tanzania? "Chronotype Variation Drives Nighttime Sentinel-Like Behaviour in Hunter-Gatherers", 2017. [0] Or in some more entertaining format at Duke University's website [1]. [0] http://dx.doi.org/10.1098/rspb.2017.0967 http://dx.doi.org/10.1098/rspb.2017.0967. [1] https://today.duke.edu/2017/07/live-grandparents-helped-human-ancestors-get-safer-night%E2%80%99s-sleep https://today.duke.edu/2017/07/live-grandparents-helped-huma...
mFixman 7y ago
I disagree with the sense that being a night owl is bad for a 9–5. If you think about it, it's exactly the opposite. Being a night owl means that you wake up late, go straight to work, use up all your energy there, come back home tired, and then you can't have a life other than "go to the pub" or other low-energy activities. Waking up at a reasonable hour means that you can use your energy for useful things before work, which is bad for your company but good for you.
- wool_gather 7y ago
  > at a reasonable hour This is an odd thing to say, since the core point of this entire topic is that "a reasonable hour" differs based on a person's physiology.
  - mFixman 7y ago
    Let's say "at an hour that doesn't make work the first and biggest thing on each weekday".
- Twisol 7y ago
  As someone with a deeply delayed sleep phase, this simply isn't accurate. It doesn't matter when you want me to wake up; I cannot even think of trying to sleep until midnight at the absolute earliest. My natural sleep time is closer to 2am. I don't get the "afternoon slump" until 6pm, a solid four hours after the average (2pm, according to some light searching). I know this is the slump and not simply exhaustion because it's consistently timed even through the weekends. Once I'm through the slump, I'm good to go for another four or five hours, and I do effectively use this time for my own pursuits.
  - 8ytecoder 7y ago
    I don’t think people understand the difference in quality of sleep and so the whole next day for a night owl when they go to bed and wake up at a time that works for them. I have been measuring my sleep for years now. I try to keep early hours and wake up early. I have tried melatonin to bring a rather early sleep schedule ...etc. And yet, my body reverts to a midnight sleep time the first chance it gets. Also, there’s a marked improvement in quality - less movement, lower heart rate, less awake and longer sleep and more wakeful the next morning when I sleep at or after midnight and sleep 8 hours. I do have flexibility at work and yet I feel the shame walking into an office where everyone comes in at 8 and leaves sharp at 4/5. So, I go back to waking up early and feeling tired all day. Now, I have been keeping this tracking for at least 4 years now. I did a 23andMe test recently and according to them my natural wake time is 8.04am. Like everyone else night owls want to be successful and perception matters. So we end up waking up early and fitting in. However, I don’t think it’s good and I hope it changes.
leksak 7y ago
Great post. I've successfully managed living a life with getting up at 5am despite being an individual that, when able, returns to a 2:30 AM sleeping time (and waking up at about 10), but this was primarily to successfully attend my 8-5 job and get a workout in at non-peak hours. But I'm far happier, and more creative, whenever I don't have to fit my life around office hours and can just roll with the ebb and tide of my head.
- blackflame7000 7y ago
  How do you condition yourself to wake up at 5am and not be super tired if you tend to be a night owl?
  - leksak 7y ago
    Wake up at 5AM. Repeat. Never waver. Doesn't matter when you get to bed. Pure exhaustion will put you out eventually.
Swizec 7y ago
You know, I used to think this way too, but then I noticed something: I never have trouble switching timezones. Oh oh I’m a nightowl how will I ever wake up before 9am and go to bed before 3am!? Are you all insane for suggesting this? No way jose Then I travelled to USA, or from usa to Europe. 9 hour time difference. After a week or two I adjusted. Going to bed at 3am and waking up at 9. Hm that’s odd, if I claim I cannot shift my sleep schedule, how did I just do so by 9 whole freaking hours? And it only took 2 weeks. That’s odd So i tried shifting without travel. Bed at midnight, up at 7am. Worked great Now I have time before work to do stuff I otherwise would’ve done after midnight. Except my mind is fresher so I’m more effective about it
- 0815test 7y ago
  It's ironic that this comment is so controversial, when it actually makes a logical argument. "Morning larks" vs. "night owls" is mostly a stereotype - at best, you could call it a matter of lifestyle. Treating it as something fixed and unchangeable is quite ludicrous.
  - Swizec 7y ago
    I mean when you think about it, if our sleep schedules were fixed in stone, moving from West coast to East coast would not be practically possible. You’d be doomed to wake up at noon forever more. You might make that work, but try moving a few timezones further and you’ve pretty much doomed yourself to never participate in society. We know for a fact plenty of people are able to make these transitions. Regular travelers can even do them very quickly. Ergo it should be possible for most people to shift their sleep by a few hours. I think most people just aren’t inconvenienced enough to actually try PS: some research suggests that nightowls are actually more creative in the mornings. Larks are more creative in the evenings. So if you have a creative job, you might in fact benefit from working in your off time
- Zenst 7y ago
  I also travelled to America and was there for 3 weeks, being a night owl means that jet-lag works in your favour initially in this instance, then your natural cycle adjusts around two weeks when your daily routine has stayed the same for all that time and your sleep pattern shifts gradually back to its natural state of being late. I did work out once that if I traveled East at a certain speed that I could maintain a 9-5 lifestyle with ease. Though costs and logistical reasons meant this was just a fun maths exercise at the time, but worked out I'd cycle the globe around every 9 weeks or so (was a while back so might be recall error).
logfromblammo 7y ago
We don't need to be cured; we need to be respected. How would the larks like it if we just stayed up until they were in phase 3 of non-REM sleep and just smothered them all in their beds? That's just as offensive as forcing us to wake up at the same time they do, just because they don't want to wait for us to finish sleeping.
leftyted 7y ago
I think calling this "offensive" is a bit silly. Pushing everything into the box of "marginalized minority oppressed by uncaring majority" is getting old. In our society, waking up early-ish is advantageous. And not just in terms of work. It's nice to be awake in the morning when everything is still. Mornings are peaceful and beautiful. I've always been a "night owl" and I could come in at 10 or 11 and work until 6-7 if I wanted to - no one I work with cares as long as I'm communicative and get things done. But adjusting my sleep schedule and getting in around 8-8:30 (wake at 6:30-7) has improved my quality of life. I'm also most productive before noon. Getting sun seems important. I have a Hacker News Health Theory (TM) about melanin content: why would human skin color vary so reliably based on distance from equator if sun wasn't really, really important? I think that, maybe, getting enough sun is much more important to our health than we realize.
- ScottBurson 7y ago
  > I've always been a "night owl" and I could come in at 10 or 11 and work until 6-7 if I wanted to That's not much of a night owl. My preference would be to work until 1 or 2am, then sleep until 10 or 11. The middle of the night is also peaceful and beautiful.
- Zenst 7y ago
  Yes pushing everything into a box is getting old, bit like sleep patterns being pushed into a box. Who said night owls are the minority when it is not a binary as that. Would 49% be classed a minority compared to 51% or would 1% be more suitable in such binary classifications. The whole minority/majority mentality in itself oversimplifies and as such dismisses many an issue in society. Whilst in many instances you may be right, it is not the case for all instances. Surly it would be far better for all to embrace night owls and with that make morning commutes less stressful, polluting and time saving by forcing some arbitrary time upon the entire populus and in effect forcing those who do not conform to self-medicate, so they can fit in and also join in this mad race to work at the same time as everybody else. You can equally argue that workers in some hemispheres miss out on daylight as they are stuck in an office during 9-5 in the winter when that is the only time the sun is out. Those working later would at least get some sun exposure during their off-peak commute into work as opposed to getting no sun upon their commute into and out of work. Speaking from a UK TZ perspective and winter sunrise/sunset times. I will also say, traveling off-peak is so much quicker, less stressful that the impact upon work is measurable. I'm also a fan of polyphasic sleep and that helps in many situations in which an early meeting/appointment is unavoidable. But gets down to what works best for you, not everybody else and so much more could be solved by changing working hours mentality within companies more than changing the people. Again, thinking better quality of life commutes into work and all those positive side effects that can be gained from embracing differences in sleep patterns over what we have currently.
0815test 7y ago
> When the crux suggestion from this `research` is to go to bed 2-3 hours earlier and wake up 2-3 hours earlier That's a goal, not a suggestion. The suggestions include e.g. avoiding stressors and things that will keep you awake (such as caffeine and bright artificial light) late in the day, while making sure that you're exposed to sunlight early in the morning (even when asleep); also, accept the fact that you'll have trouble falling asleep the first few times you try going to bed earlier in the night, and stick to it anyway. This stuff works, and will shift your sleep-wake cycle backwards making you more of a "morning lark". Of course it comes with tradeoffs too - morning larks will do their best work in the early parts of the day, whereas they might feel very tired and sleepy in the evening and early in the night. Perhaps that's not what you want to be. It's a choice you can make with some discipline though, not something that you're born with!
bryanlarsen 7y ago
There are three types of night owls: - Normals or larks that are currently functioning as night owls because of caffeine, late blue light exposure, lack of sunlight exposure, et cetera - Night owls made much worse because of caffeine etc. - Unaffected night owls who think they are normal. 11PM-7AM sleep is now considered normal. The article refers to the second category. I was the first.
- hinkley 7y ago
  You recognize what category you're in. A lot of people who don't and have 'become' morning people think it's just a matter of discipline.
detcader 7y ago
"Mental health in the 40's" was women who deviated from expectations of public behavior, intercourse and reproduction being placed in institutions and forced to take hallucinogenic drugs. It's alarming to hear that night owls are being treated in this way and it would be a revelation to hear the stories of these people who have been victimized.
senderista 7y ago
It’s hard to keep a night owl schedule when you have kids.
- Zenst 7y ago
  Kids can and will mess with any schedule, but we still love them in the end. Does kinda make you review your own childhood and as you look back upon it with probably the same mentalities your own parents bestowed upon you as a child. All those things they said and as a child you dismissed now ring true.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  Impossible to keep any schedule at times. But what happened for me is just that I can't sleep at night but have to be awake for the kids at certain times; cue chronic sleep deprivation. Kids are older now, so am returning to "normality", hopefully I'll get a job with flexible working where I can work into the night too.
kpU8efre7r 7y ago
I think most night owls aren't as night-owly as they think- they just don't have a consistent and healthy routine. Very few actually have a diagnosed sleep disorder, just poor habits. I was able to program myself to be a morning person with very little up-front effort. Anecdotal but I used to be a night owl and now I've risen at 5am every workday for the past two years. On off days I just set my alarm to go off 7 hours after my head hits the pillow which is only an hour or so later than usual anyway. Just have a routine, any routine.
- siphon22 7y ago
  This is generally my experience as well. I have been a night owl at times, stuck in a loop where I would live during the night and sleep all day. Then I broke it, and became a morning person when that schedule became more convenient(like for work). I also tried polyphasic sleep schedules, where I would sleep multiple times. I've found my body doesn't work well that way though, I prefer to sleep just one time and get all the sleep I need for the rest of the day/night. I definitely prefer the night time for things that involve creativity though. For me, the ideas just flow better at night for some reason.

by Zenst 7y ago

scardine 7y ago

Well, in my trade (software development) it is becoming irrelevant with more and more companies embracing remote working. I'm a night owl living in Brazil so when I take a job in CT I can sleep 2 hours more and still be seen as an early bird. I can sleep even more if the main office is in the west cost. São Paulo is a huge, sleepless city (10 million citizens), you have excellent 24 x 7 options for almost everything.

Zenst 7y ago

I'd also add that by forcing a 9-5 mentality we create a situation which has everybody traveling to and from work at the same time, yielding delays adding to stress, pollution... Not saying that by solving the 9-5 mentality we will solve climate change, but it sure would be a measurable improvement on that front as well as mental health as a whole. Maybe somebody should research that.

wwweston 7y ago
Capitalists: let's use markets to efficiently allocate resources! Also nominal capitalists: let's dictate labor schedules so that everyone has no choice but to simultaneously compete for available transport.
- jccooper 7y ago
  A sensible outcome if communication and other network losses from lack of co-location outweigh the costs of high peak transportation requirements and the costs of those being under-provisioned. Which was probably very true in the past, and while changing is probably still true.
  - wwweston 7y ago
    Granted, but maybe the most curious thing about it is less the outcome than the mechanism -- there's apparently not an aggregately negotiated process that's market-like for arriving at the schedule for an organization. I suppose I can imagine that perhaps at some point maybe there was a diversity of choices, and perhaps some critical plurality settled around 9-5 external facing availability, and once that happened, others that did the same had an inter-firm communication efficiency advantage, leading to wide adoption, but that's a just-so story rather than a studied opinion. Anyone know the actual history? And that's a more macro scale. Internally, one presumes that either: * It doesn't occur to most management to think about different ways of doing scheduling at all * They've thought about it and it seems that the cost of aggregating an adaptive schedule is larger than the cost of dictating one (especially if most of the latter costs can truly be externalized!) * Real day-to-day and career incentives for management reward 9-5 schedules
    - hinkley 7y ago
      The managers want everything run on their schedule so they can keep an eye on things. That is the process, for better or worse. I've worked at two or three startups (and heard of others) where, when it was time to move to bigger offices, there was a long discussion about moving the company out to the suburbs. Everyone hired on because the job was downtown, except who? Management. Now that we're doing well they want to make their lives easier. It came to some very angry conversations and threats of quitting before they would relent. If memory serves, none of these individuals were of the facilitator school of thought, where the manager's job is to make sure everything is running smoothly.

buildzr 7y ago

I'm not so sure - if it's easy enough for you to adjust your schedule as a "night owl", it's possibly something worth considering. Personally I'm mainly on a night owl schedule because I feel like I get less enjoyment and focus out of the day if I split my free time between morning and evening.

y96V89C668e7Q74 7y ago

Hey, thank you for this, I'm glad someone said this. It sounds like you know a lot about this. Are there any companies known for flexible hours the way that some companies are famous for remote work? As a night person, I've always felt a bit hopeless with fitting into the career world. Even having officially been diagnosed with DSPS I find that few people take it seriously. It's not something I would ever feel comfortable telling a prospective or current employer that I have, as I feel like I'd probably get laughed at and told that it's not real. I've realized that whether or not I believe in DPSD or even call it by that name is irrelevant. What I do know is some things lead to better quality of sleep, better quality work, and better happiness. It's nice to know that the habits mentioned in the article are effective, even though they aren't as good as actual acceptance of the way of being.

stronglikedan 7y ago
A fellow night owl friend of mine lives on the East coast and does remote work for a company on the West coast, during their normal business hours. I must admit to a bit of jealously.
- wool_gather 7y ago
  I have the opposite spatial arrangement, and I'm honestly not sure how long I'm going to be able to keep it up. It can be a serious drag. Although I have rediscovered the glory of naptime.
- rhino369 7y ago
  I worked on a west coast based team in an east coast office for a while. It was pretty great until I had to work on a project on both coasts. I had calls scheduled anytime from 9am til 8pm.

world32 7y ago

I have also read a study (can find a link if somebody wants it) that observed bushmen in the kalahari (or somewhere like that - mostly untouched by modern civilisation) and found that the distribution of sleeping patterns (i.e. night owls vs early birds) was pretty uniform. They also found that because of this, there was always somebody in the tribe who was awake at any given point. They theorised an evolutionary advantage to this in that there is always somebody awake to keep watch.

privong 7y ago
A similar evolutionary argument was put forward in "Why We Sleep"[0] by Matthew Walker. Its mention in the book was less specific, so I'm not sure if it's referring to the same study. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Sleep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Sleep
jhncls 7y ago
Maybe you are referring to David Samson's study of the Hadza tribe in Northern Tanzania? "Chronotype Variation Drives Nighttime Sentinel-Like Behaviour in Hunter-Gatherers", 2017. [0] Or in some more entertaining format at Duke University's website [1]. [0] http://dx.doi.org/10.1098/rspb.2017.0967 http://dx.doi.org/10.1098/rspb.2017.0967. [1] https://today.duke.edu/2017/07/live-grandparents-helped-human-ancestors-get-safer-night%E2%80%99s-sleep https://today.duke.edu/2017/07/live-grandparents-helped-huma...

mFixman 7y ago

I disagree with the sense that being a night owl is bad for a 9–5. If you think about it, it's exactly the opposite. Being a night owl means that you wake up late, go straight to work, use up all your energy there, come back home tired, and then you can't have a life other than "go to the pub" or other low-energy activities. Waking up at a reasonable hour means that you can use your energy for useful things before work, which is bad for your company but good for you.

wool_gather 7y ago
> at a reasonable hour This is an odd thing to say, since the core point of this entire topic is that "a reasonable hour" differs based on a person's physiology.
- mFixman 7y ago
  Let's say "at an hour that doesn't make work the first and biggest thing on each weekday".
Twisol 7y ago
As someone with a deeply delayed sleep phase, this simply isn't accurate. It doesn't matter when you want me to wake up; I cannot even think of trying to sleep until midnight at the absolute earliest. My natural sleep time is closer to 2am. I don't get the "afternoon slump" until 6pm, a solid four hours after the average (2pm, according to some light searching). I know this is the slump and not simply exhaustion because it's consistently timed even through the weekends. Once I'm through the slump, I'm good to go for another four or five hours, and I do effectively use this time for my own pursuits.
- 8ytecoder 7y ago
  I don’t think people understand the difference in quality of sleep and so the whole next day for a night owl when they go to bed and wake up at a time that works for them. I have been measuring my sleep for years now. I try to keep early hours and wake up early. I have tried melatonin to bring a rather early sleep schedule ...etc. And yet, my body reverts to a midnight sleep time the first chance it gets. Also, there’s a marked improvement in quality - less movement, lower heart rate, less awake and longer sleep and more wakeful the next morning when I sleep at or after midnight and sleep 8 hours. I do have flexibility at work and yet I feel the shame walking into an office where everyone comes in at 8 and leaves sharp at 4/5. So, I go back to waking up early and feeling tired all day. Now, I have been keeping this tracking for at least 4 years now. I did a 23andMe test recently and according to them my natural wake time is 8.04am. Like everyone else night owls want to be successful and perception matters. So we end up waking up early and fitting in. However, I don’t think it’s good and I hope it changes.

leksak 7y ago

Great post. I've successfully managed living a life with getting up at 5am despite being an individual that, when able, returns to a 2:30 AM sleeping time (and waking up at about 10), but this was primarily to successfully attend my 8-5 job and get a workout in at non-peak hours. But I'm far happier, and more creative, whenever I don't have to fit my life around office hours and can just roll with the ebb and tide of my head.

blackflame7000 7y ago
How do you condition yourself to wake up at 5am and not be super tired if you tend to be a night owl?
- leksak 7y ago
  Wake up at 5AM. Repeat. Never waver. Doesn't matter when you get to bed. Pure exhaustion will put you out eventually.

Swizec 7y ago

You know, I used to think this way too, but then I noticed something: I never have trouble switching timezones. Oh oh I’m a nightowl how will I ever wake up before 9am and go to bed before 3am!? Are you all insane for suggesting this? No way jose Then I travelled to USA, or from usa to Europe. 9 hour time difference. After a week or two I adjusted. Going to bed at 3am and waking up at 9. Hm that’s odd, if I claim I cannot shift my sleep schedule, how did I just do so by 9 whole freaking hours? And it only took 2 weeks. That’s odd So i tried shifting without travel. Bed at midnight, up at 7am. Worked great Now I have time before work to do stuff I otherwise would’ve done after midnight. Except my mind is fresher so I’m more effective about it

0815test 7y ago
It's ironic that this comment is so controversial, when it actually makes a logical argument. "Morning larks" vs. "night owls" is mostly a stereotype - at best, you could call it a matter of lifestyle. Treating it as something fixed and unchangeable is quite ludicrous.
- Swizec 7y ago
  I mean when you think about it, if our sleep schedules were fixed in stone, moving from West coast to East coast would not be practically possible. You’d be doomed to wake up at noon forever more. You might make that work, but try moving a few timezones further and you’ve pretty much doomed yourself to never participate in society. We know for a fact plenty of people are able to make these transitions. Regular travelers can even do them very quickly. Ergo it should be possible for most people to shift their sleep by a few hours. I think most people just aren’t inconvenienced enough to actually try PS: some research suggests that nightowls are actually more creative in the mornings. Larks are more creative in the evenings. So if you have a creative job, you might in fact benefit from working in your off time
Zenst 7y ago
I also travelled to America and was there for 3 weeks, being a night owl means that jet-lag works in your favour initially in this instance, then your natural cycle adjusts around two weeks when your daily routine has stayed the same for all that time and your sleep pattern shifts gradually back to its natural state of being late. I did work out once that if I traveled East at a certain speed that I could maintain a 9-5 lifestyle with ease. Though costs and logistical reasons meant this was just a fun maths exercise at the time, but worked out I'd cycle the globe around every 9 weeks or so (was a while back so might be recall error).

logfromblammo 7y ago

We don't need to be cured; we need to be respected. How would the larks like it if we just stayed up until they were in phase 3 of non-REM sleep and just smothered them all in their beds? That's just as offensive as forcing us to wake up at the same time they do, just because they don't want to wait for us to finish sleeping.

leftyted 7y ago

I think calling this "offensive" is a bit silly. Pushing everything into the box of "marginalized minority oppressed by uncaring majority" is getting old. In our society, waking up early-ish is advantageous. And not just in terms of work. It's nice to be awake in the morning when everything is still. Mornings are peaceful and beautiful. I've always been a "night owl" and I could come in at 10 or 11 and work until 6-7 if I wanted to - no one I work with cares as long as I'm communicative and get things done. But adjusting my sleep schedule and getting in around 8-8:30 (wake at 6:30-7) has improved my quality of life. I'm also most productive before noon. Getting sun seems important. I have a Hacker News Health Theory (TM) about melanin content: why would human skin color vary so reliably based on distance from equator if sun wasn't really, really important? I think that, maybe, getting enough sun is much more important to our health than we realize.

ScottBurson 7y ago
> I've always been a "night owl" and I could come in at 10 or 11 and work until 6-7 if I wanted to That's not much of a night owl. My preference would be to work until 1 or 2am, then sleep until 10 or 11. The middle of the night is also peaceful and beautiful.
Zenst 7y ago
Yes pushing everything into a box is getting old, bit like sleep patterns being pushed into a box. Who said night owls are the minority when it is not a binary as that. Would 49% be classed a minority compared to 51% or would 1% be more suitable in such binary classifications. The whole minority/majority mentality in itself oversimplifies and as such dismisses many an issue in society. Whilst in many instances you may be right, it is not the case for all instances. Surly it would be far better for all to embrace night owls and with that make morning commutes less stressful, polluting and time saving by forcing some arbitrary time upon the entire populus and in effect forcing those who do not conform to self-medicate, so they can fit in and also join in this mad race to work at the same time as everybody else. You can equally argue that workers in some hemispheres miss out on daylight as they are stuck in an office during 9-5 in the winter when that is the only time the sun is out. Those working later would at least get some sun exposure during their off-peak commute into work as opposed to getting no sun upon their commute into and out of work. Speaking from a UK TZ perspective and winter sunrise/sunset times. I will also say, traveling off-peak is so much quicker, less stressful that the impact upon work is measurable. I'm also a fan of polyphasic sleep and that helps in many situations in which an early meeting/appointment is unavoidable. But gets down to what works best for you, not everybody else and so much more could be solved by changing working hours mentality within companies more than changing the people. Again, thinking better quality of life commutes into work and all those positive side effects that can be gained from embracing differences in sleep patterns over what we have currently.

0815test 7y ago

> When the crux suggestion from this `research` is to go to bed 2-3 hours earlier and wake up 2-3 hours earlier That's a goal, not a suggestion. The suggestions include e.g. avoiding stressors and things that will keep you awake (such as caffeine and bright artificial light) late in the day, while making sure that you're exposed to sunlight early in the morning (even when asleep); also, accept the fact that you'll have trouble falling asleep the first few times you try going to bed earlier in the night, and stick to it anyway. This stuff works, and will shift your sleep-wake cycle backwards making you more of a "morning lark". Of course it comes with tradeoffs too - morning larks will do their best work in the early parts of the day, whereas they might feel very tired and sleepy in the evening and early in the night. Perhaps that's not what you want to be. It's a choice you can make with some discipline though, not something that you're born with!

bryanlarsen 7y ago

There are three types of night owls: - Normals or larks that are currently functioning as night owls because of caffeine, late blue light exposure, lack of sunlight exposure, et cetera - Night owls made much worse because of caffeine etc. - Unaffected night owls who think they are normal. 11PM-7AM sleep is now considered normal. The article refers to the second category. I was the first.

hinkley 7y ago
You recognize what category you're in. A lot of people who don't and have 'become' morning people think it's just a matter of discipline.

detcader 7y ago

"Mental health in the 40's" was women who deviated from expectations of public behavior, intercourse and reproduction being placed in institutions and forced to take hallucinogenic drugs. It's alarming to hear that night owls are being treated in this way and it would be a revelation to hear the stories of these people who have been victimized.

senderista 7y ago

It’s hard to keep a night owl schedule when you have kids.

Zenst 7y ago
Kids can and will mess with any schedule, but we still love them in the end. Does kinda make you review your own childhood and as you look back upon it with probably the same mentalities your own parents bestowed upon you as a child. All those things they said and as a child you dismissed now ring true.
pbhjpbhj 7y ago
Impossible to keep any schedule at times. But what happened for me is just that I can't sleep at night but have to be awake for the kids at certain times; cue chronic sleep deprivation. Kids are older now, so am returning to "normality", hopefully I'll get a job with flexible working where I can work into the night too.

kpU8efre7r 7y ago

I think most night owls aren't as night-owly as they think- they just don't have a consistent and healthy routine. Very few actually have a diagnosed sleep disorder, just poor habits. I was able to program myself to be a morning person with very little up-front effort. Anecdotal but I used to be a night owl and now I've risen at 5am every workday for the past two years. On off days I just set my alarm to go off 7 hours after my head hits the pillow which is only an hour or so later than usual anyway. Just have a routine, any routine.

siphon22 7y ago
This is generally my experience as well. I have been a night owl at times, stuck in a loop where I would live during the night and sleep all day. Then I broke it, and became a morning person when that schedule became more convenient(like for work). I also tried polyphasic sleep schedules, where I would sleep multiple times. I've found my body doesn't work well that way though, I prefer to sleep just one time and get all the sleep I need for the rest of the day/night. I definitely prefer the night time for things that involve creativity though. For me, the ideas just flow better at night for some reason.