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Sleep tweaks boost night owls' wellbeing

161 points by seagullz 7y ago

fastcucumber 7y ago
So go to sleep earlier. Cheers BBC
mkagenius 7y ago
Not really sure about the sunlight in the morning. If you can force yourself to a early sleep (either by tiring yourself one day) or slowly shifting it early each day, you will be able to change your sleep cycle.
- Fellshard 7y ago
  At least personally, I have found sunlight makes waking easier, smoother. So it's probably one factor out of several.
dpeck 7y ago
| Wake up 2-3 hours earlier than usual and get plenty of outdoor light in the morning | Eat breakfast as soon as possible | Exercise only in the morning | Have lunch at the same time every day and eat nothing after 19:00 | Banish caffeine after 15:00 | Have no naps after 16:00 | Go to bed 2-3 hours earlier than usual and limit light in the evenings | Maintain the same sleep and wake times every day So basically, stop being a night owl. Great advice.
- accnumnplus1 7y ago
  You beat me to it. Exactly - become a lark.
- world32 7y ago
  Yeah rubbish article.
- koboll 7y ago
  Most people who self-apply the title "night owls" are probably artificially inhibiting their sleep by blue light exposure, so this advice is useful to many.
  - anonu 7y ago
    Is it right to assume that night owls are up in front of a screen?
    - stronglikedan 7y ago
      No, especially considering screens have only been around for a very small fraction of a percentage of time that night owls have, to the point of being negligible to discussion on the topic of night owls.
      - pavel_lishin 7y ago
        It's possible that the prevalence of screens is driving a significant number of people into the same sleeping patterns as natural night owls.
    - AllegedAlec 7y ago
      N == 1, but IME, even before screens were a thing in my house, when I was around eight years old, I still had huge issues sleeping early. I'd regularly lie in bed until one, two AM not being able to fall asleep.
  - modzu 7y ago
    the distinction between larks and night owls is a robust psychological finding that predates iphones; there is some evidence to suggest it is genetic; and night owls represent a significant percentage of the population (about 20%). that isn't to discount the point about blue light exposure.
    - magnamerc 7y ago
      Night owls are absolutely real and they are genetically predisposed. In fact, night owls will always be night owls and there's really nothing you can do about it. Everyone should read Dr. Matthew Walker's book 'Why We Sleep'.
- mabbo 7y ago
  Ignoring the "go to bed" and "wake up" advice, one could be a night owl and still be healthier for following the rest of the advice. I myself used to be much more of a night owl- bed before 11:30 was just not going to happen. My wife is not. When we moved in together, I wanted to match her schedule. I started doing most of the things on this list and it worked for me. I went to bed last night at 10 and got up at 5:30 so I could go to the gym. Me of 10 years ago would have said that was impossible.
  - stronglikedan 7y ago
    You'd also have to ignore the "Exercise only in the morning" advice. Exercising any time of day will keep you just as healthy.
    - JoelMcCracken 7y ago
      I don't have citations, but have read data that supports the idea that exercising in the evening results in higher cortisol levels, and thus lower levels of melatonin in the evenings.
      - stronglikedan 7y ago
        Sure, if you buy into the "you can't be a night owl and be healthy" thing (as this article seems to suggest). I think you can have both. I feel that making people think it's somehow better to exercise only in the morning will discourage some people from exercising daily, which I feel is more important than the time of day.
        ehnto 7y ago
        The grandparent comment is also assuming that you want to sleep in the evening, which means you wouldn't be a night owl so it kind of misses the point. There are still lots of people in this thread assuming that the "problem" that night owls face is that they're not sleeping in the evening, that's not it at all. They're sleeping in their natural cycle, it just doesn't fit with typical modern life. So if exercising in the evening raises cortisol, and makes it hard to sleep for normal people, then that's not going to be a problem from someone sleeping at 4am. I train anywhere from 9pm-1am and always sleep better at what seems to be my natural sleep time, which is around 3-5am.
- kzrdude 7y ago
  It's what happened to me when I stopped using caffeine and started taking sleep seriously. I stopped being a night owl.
- gubbrora 7y ago
  I have found myself to feel much more energetic and happy when I rein in my night owl tendencies.
- bryanlarsen 7y ago
  They shifted study participants sleep time from 2:30AM to midnight. They're still night owls.
- CodiePetersen 7y ago
  Right xD. I was thinking it was going to be advice to be a more effective night owl and still get the rest you need.
- lostmyoldone 7y ago
  I love how the article essentially ends with "These are relatively simple things anyone can do that makes an impact, and that to me is surprising." No, those are not relatively simple things that anymore can do. Like getting that morning sunlight in the winter when sun rises close to 10? Not to mention my ADD causing every single new routine to be a continuous, unabating battle for years, at best! I really wish people would stop assuming that what is simple for them, just might not be it for anyone.
  - 0815test 7y ago
    > Like getting that morning sunlight in the winter when sun rises close to 10? Blue LED's to the rescue! (ha ha only serious)
  - rblatz 7y ago
    As someone that has ADD, do not use it as a crux for you to not improve yourself. It's offensive and in my experience just an excuse people tell themselves to justify being lazy.
    - ultimape 7y ago
      "lazy" > Research on ADHD has particularly emphasized impairments in inhibitory control (Barkley, 1997; Nigg, 2000) and working memory (Castellanos & Tannock, 2002; Martinussen, Hayden, Hogg-Johnson, & Tannock, 2005). Barkley’s (1997) model of ADHD emphasizes inhibitory control (i.e. inhibition of prepotent response, stopping an ongoing response, and interference control) as the primary neuropsychological impairment, which underlies secondary impairments in working memory and related functions https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425416/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425416/ Trouble managing and structuring time, remembering things, paying attention to relevant cues, and avoiding impulsive behavior are some of the defining factors of ADD. Have you considered that others with ADD have more extreme symptoms on a different axis from you, or perhaps their life experience and stress have amplified underlying proclivities? Or maybe they have mutations that make normal medication not effective.
      - 7y ago
- TomK32 7y ago
  Stop being so lefty and get used to everything being right-handed.
- nprz 7y ago
  |Comfortable |Not drinking too much |Regular exercise at the gym, 3 days a week |Getting on better with your associate employee contemporaries |At ease |Eating well, no more microwaved diners and saturated fats |A patient better driver, a safer car
- ScottBurson 7y ago
  I have found that eating dinner as early as possible — anyway, earlier than 8:30 or 9:00, which is my natural tendency — does help. I get an energy burst about an hour after dinner; it's hard (and pointless) to get myself to go to bed until it runs its course, so eating earlier is the only solution.
- hinkley 7y ago
  https://www.reddit.com/r/thanksimcured/ https://www.reddit.com/r/thanksimcured/
- kpU8efre7r 7y ago
  More like be consistent and have a routine. Really complex stuff, I know.
mysterypie 7y ago
> They focused on "night owls", whose bodies drive them to stay up late into the night. The problem for many night owls is fitting into a nine-to-five world. An alternative solution is to go ahead and live your life on the 25 or 26 hour cycle that your "night owl" body demands. You'll need to be single (or partnered with a similar night owl), have light-proof curtains or blinds, and work independently (or remotely for an accommodating company). And probably you'll want to live in a major urban area so you have access to 24-hour restaurants, supermarkets, and other resources when your constantly shifting day/night cycle leaves you awake at night.
- ptah 7y ago
  it looks like you can cut diabetes risk and mental health risk by switching https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43711631 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43711631
  - mysterypie 7y ago
    Interesting quote from your article: > The paper's authors ... said it was likely that people with late body clocks were being harmed by having to adjust their habits to a "morning lark world". Scientists say that about 40% to 70% of a person's circadian rhythm, or body clock, is genetic. Part of it you don't have any control over. In other words, the "night owls" might have health problems because of the effort and stress of trying to keep their body clock in sync with the rest of the world. If they could live a 25 or 26 hour day, they might be just as fit as the 24-hour "morning larks".
    - ptah 7y ago
      possibly yes, but how likely is that to happen? I'm actually a proponent of living in shifts with offices and shops open 24 hours and people being in "office hours" at different times. it would solve a lot of problems with traffic etc.
ptah 7y ago
I found it also helps to go to bed before that late night "second wind" kicks in
- WaltPurvis 7y ago
  True for me. I often get really sleepy around 9-10 PM. When I force myself to go to bed right then, when my eyelids are heavy, I usually sleep through the night (with perhaps a 15-minute semi-awake period in the middle) and wake around dawn feeling well-rested. But if I shrug off my drowsiness, I usually get a second wind around 11 that will keep me going until at least 1 AM, and then the next day I don't feel rested at all.
  - ehnto 7y ago
    I have vastly different values but same effect. If I sleep when I am drowsy I sleep solid for 1 to 3 hours, then I am awake for sometimes 3 hours after that. If I sleep again it's solid until midday, which leaves me waking up at the same time as before except with 3 hours wasted awake in bed in the middle. If I take the second wind I am awake until early morning and then out like a light for a solid 8 hours, again waking at midday. I have tried dozens of possible schedules and I eventually revert to this if given time. When working a 9-5 it inevitably turns into an 11-7 and I am tired all the time regardless.
    - ptah 7y ago
      that reminds me: in the past humans had 2 sleeps and an awake period in the middle. you could try and get up and get some work done in that middle period? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783
      - psalminen 7y ago
        I did that for about 3 months this year. I would go to bed around 6, wake up at 10. Then I would eat, go for a walk, and work on my hobbies/side projects until about 3AM and sleep until 7AM. It was honestly a very refreshing way to live.
neves 7y ago
Well, I don't think these are "simple" tweaks. If you are a single person and must wake up every day at the same hour, won't do anything at night. If you just have time to exercise at evening, you wouldn't exercise anymore.
Zenst 7y ago
This 9-5 mentality being imposed in a way that if your sleep pattern is an owl, you're kinda ostracized and viewed as an issue you need to fix, has been going on forever. When the crux suggestion from this `research` is to go to bed 2-3 hours earlier and wake up 2-3 hours earlier and presuming the person does not have DSPS (Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome) or other genetic trait that causes this is, and always is, offencive. The way we treat night owls is akin to mental health in the 40's. Not everybody works 9-5, not every job can be fitted into a 9-5. But many of the jobs allocated 9-5 could equally benefit from flexi-time and have those who wake up early come in earlier and those who wake up late, come in later. Covering more hours, and cater for those who are equally not 9-5 people. It's time work hours got some research, not the people being forced into this arbitrary cookie-cutter mentality. Some companies already do flexi-time and cater for such people, but time and time again, the media and research go to mentality is in viewing such peoples as an issue in a way that parallels many forms of negative science we have seen historically upon many differences between humans. People's sleep patterns are not unified, not even binary, and people should be able to find the sleep pattern that works for them and not be forced into all wearing the same dictated sleep pattern. With that, the way to boost wellbeing of night owls is: 1) Stop treating them as an issue but an opportunity and embrace that diversity. 2) See point one and stop repeating the same mistakes with different categorisation.
- scardine 7y ago
  Well, in my trade (software development) it is becoming irrelevant with more and more companies embracing remote working. I'm a night owl living in Brazil so when I take a job in CT I can sleep 2 hours more and still be seen as an early bird. I can sleep even more if the main office is in the west cost. São Paulo is a huge, sleepless city (10 million citizens), you have excellent 24 x 7 options for almost everything.
- Zenst 7y ago
  I'd also add that by forcing a 9-5 mentality we create a situation which has everybody traveling to and from work at the same time, yielding delays adding to stress, pollution... Not saying that by solving the 9-5 mentality we will solve climate change, but it sure would be a measurable improvement on that front as well as mental health as a whole. Maybe somebody should research that.
anonu 7y ago
My issue is I get a ton more work done at night when you don't have a million distractions going on: emails, meetings, loud noises, conversations, etc... All of that dissipates or disappears into the late evening - and focusing becomes easier.
js8 7y ago
I am a night owl, and tried to shift the sleep cycle to earlier (get in bed earlier and wake up earlier). However, what I observed (when I went to the bed earlier) was that then I wake up very very early in the morning (around 5), but then after about an hour or two I became very sleepy again. Is this supposed to happen if you try to shift the sleep cycle?
- ehnto 7y ago
  I get that regardless of my schedule, which changes a lot. Between 2 to 4 hours after I wake up I feel like I need to sleep immediately and can barely focus. About an hour later I'm alert again.
- jchanimal 7y ago
  When you start to get enough sleep, it's normal to become biphasic. That is, wake up in the night and go back to sleep. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphasic_and_polyphasic_sleep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphasic_and_polyphasic_sleep
- lostmyoldone 7y ago
  Almost exactly what happens to me the odd periods I manage to sleep early. Fall asleep before 22:30, wake up 04:15-04:30. Then I get a bit spacey between 6-7. After 2230 I don't wake up until about 9
hacknat 7y ago
The only real advice here is: - Exercise only in the morning - Have lunch at the same time every day and eat nothing after 19:00 - Banish caffeine after 15:00 everything else is "stop being a night owl".
- stronglikedan 7y ago
  "Exercise only in the morning" is terrible advice. I cannot wake up one second earlier than I must in order to get to work on time. If I followed that advice, I would never exercise. The best advice is to find time to exercise every day, no matter what time that may be.
  - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
    Don't want to? If we redefine exercise as part of the day's work, then is it better advice?
    - stronglikedan 7y ago
      Not until I get paid cold hard cash to do it. ;-) I'm not saying I don't exercise. I just do it in the evening after work, when I feel it provides a couple of benefits. (1) I do it consistently every day, because I feel more "up to it" at that time. (2) I feel that it helps relieve the stress of my work day, since focusing on my form and nothing else is almost meditative to me. I just feel that making people think it's somehow better to exercise only in the morning will discourage some people from exercising daily, which I feel is more important than the time of day.
  - tbirrell 7y ago
    I am the same way. I have trouble falling asleep (will toss and turn for 45 minutes to 2 hours), so I'm loathe to wake up before I absolutely have to, because once I'm asleep, I want to stay that way. As a result, I just schedule my day so that I work 8 hours, then do everything else. It has its downsides, but its better than everything else I've tried.
  - mi100hael 7y ago
viburnum 7y ago
For me going to bed at 1am or 8pm works, but if I try anything in the middle, I just stay up until 1am.
seba_dos1 7y ago
"Scientists studied 21 "extreme night owls" who were going to bed, on average, at 02:30 and not waking until after 10:00. " I guess that makes me an extremely extreme night owl then.
chadlavi 7y ago
these "tweaks" boil down to "stop being a night owl." If I could wake up hours earlier and make myself go to sleep hours earlier I wouldn't be in this mess, BBC.
glastra 7y ago
Is there any research around that tests whether self-defined "night owls" are immune to the hormonal effects of sunrise and sundown (as visual stimuli)? I once considered myself one, until I started actually rolling the blinds up in the mornings (Spanish blinds block all light) and staying away from blue light in the evenings. Being brought up in a cloudy, rainy town and having a very obstructed view of the outside from my bedroom window didn't help, I must admit. Also I wonder if certain habits and behaviors, like dopamine-induced compulsive social browsing or gaming, food addictions, etc. play a role here.
nr152522 7y ago
A stalk delivered me a child and in one single transformation, I turned from night owl into Super Lark!!
TheGRS 7y ago
This article is kind of dumb, basically saying that you shouldn't be a night owl, but I will admit that my quality of life is improved when I'm in a natural rhythm of going to bed "on time" and waking up early-ish, getting at least 7 1/2 hours of sleep per day. Around 2-3 cups of coffee per day seem fine, anymore and I need to scale it back. One cup doesn't do it for me. I also now get to work early and don't stress if I'm occasionally late. The early bird gets the worm, so no matter how much we'd like to adjust society to be accepting of different sleep schedules, early risers will always have a natural advantage.
daenz 7y ago
I've had sleep problems for as long as I can remember. I self-diagnosed Non-24 Sleep-Wake Disorder, where your body clock is typically slightly longer than a 24 hours, and so you feel tired later and later every day, eventually going to sleep is nearly impossible. It makes keeping to a normal routine extremely difficult. The fix for me was morning blue light lamp, as soon as I wake up, for one hour. And 1.5 hours before bedtime, I take 500mcg melatonin. These 2 things worked like a miracle. I kept a log of doing these things, and the exact time I performed them, for a month. After a month, the habit was there, and I know have a normal sleep pattern, so long as I stick to the light and the supplement. It's had a huge impact on my life. EDIT>> 500mcg, not mg
- balfirevic 7y ago
  I'm in the same situation. What blue light lamp are you using? How did you settle on your current melatonin regime? Also, any other advice that you may have would be appreciated, thanks!
  - daenz 7y ago
    This is the lamp https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079YBGPM5 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079YBGPM5. The important aspect of it is to have it within 12 inches of your face when using it, but not directly in your eyes (can mess with your eyes). I usually have mine in front of my keyboard, tilted up, so the majority of the light is coming in from the bottom of my eyes. As far as melatonin, I have to point out that I edited my post to say 500mcg (0.5mg) not 500mg. I've done some reading that the light doses work very well http://news.mit.edu/2005/melatonin http://news.mit.edu/2005/melatonin. I haven't really tinkered with the dosage much, because the dosage I started with seems to work well. The last thing I will say is that keeping a log is important. I've never been one to keep logs for things, but I knew if I was going to fix this problem and make it a habit, I needed to stick to it rigidly for a month. That's what it took for the habit to form, and I'm glad I did it. Best of luck!
    - theonething 7y ago
      Thank you for the details! Same situation, trouble going to sleep for most of my adult life. Going to give this a shot to see how it works for me.
molbioguy 7y ago
One item mentioned in the article that matches my personal experience is the importance of sleep consistency or regularity. Waking up at the same time and sleeping at the same time each night has been beneficial, even if those regular times are shifted from what the article suggests. There was a study that touched on this [0]. [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-03171-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-03171-4
jechamt 7y ago
To the other night owls out there, I would love to know: -Do you struggle to sleep every day? Or is it only as the work/school/lark-world responsibilities progress through the week? -Would you characterize your difficulty as struggling to sleep or struggling to wake up, or both? -How does this impact your days off (i.e. weekends), and what is the first and last day off typically like in comparison? -Is this the kind of struggle that you manage, but it frustrates you, or has other effects, or is it something that regularly threatens to derail your life? (i.e. late for work or class, or other real-life consequences) -Do you feel like it is something you will always live with, or do you feel that there could be a lifestyle/solution, either involving your change, or accommodating to your current behavior and/or natural inclination? I'm a night owl, and I won't go into detail about my situation with hope to not impact responses too much, but it would help me (and hopefully others!) to understand just how similar/different I may be. Thank you!
lostdog 7y ago
One excerpt from the article [1]: > Individuals were screened for no diagnoses of sleep or neurological disorders via self-report and were not taking any medications that affected sleep, melatonin and cortisol rhythms. I'm really curious if insomnia or DSPD counts as a sleep disorder here. I guess the core point of the study is, if you force yourself to be on a morning schedule for a few weeks and follow basic sleep hygiene, then it will work and you will feel better. I don't know what to take away from this. I already follow their protocol, but my sleep onset is still naturally around 1:30am. For me, when I go to bed earlier, I fall asleep even later than usual, since I just doze for an hour and am even more awake. When I wake up earlier, I tend to fall asleep during the day. (I test negative for sleep apnea). The comments here are pretty split between "I just tried getting up earlier and it worked great!" and "I do all of this and it doesn't work at all," so my experience isn't unusual. It reminds me a lot of comments on anti-depressant efficacy. So I'll probably do the same thing I do every time a study like this comes out: Follow the sleep protocol more carefully for a few weeks, then feel discouraged when it gives no results, then feel even worse from the comments claiming that I am just being lazy. And then finally I will remember that the science on this subject is weak and incomplete, that morning people's unyielding sense of righteousness and morality is based on nothing, and that maybe someday we will discover universal methods of adjusting sleep schedules. [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1389945719301388 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S138994571... and if you cannot access the full text, sci-hub.tw may be helpful
jlarocco 7y ago
I personally enjoy being a night owl. I get plenty of excercise, sunlight, and sleep, and I've never had a problem at any of my workplaces for arriving late (say between 10 and 11) and then working late to compensate. Furthermore, the article is common sense. Obviously, shifting my daily routine 3 hours would shift my daily routine 3 hours, and I'd eventually get used to it, but why would I want to?
danschumann 7y ago
Can someone reply to this comment if they see it in a few weeks and see if it's been working for me? :D
chillytoes 7y ago
I struggled with insomnia for about 3 years before finding something which worked for me: magnesium supplements. Learned about them through a random Hacker News comment.
person_of_color 7y ago
Anything to help STAY asleep in the night? I've lost the ability to sleep in one sitting and it irks me.

161 points by seagullz 7y ago

So go to sleep earlier. Cheers BBC

Not really sure about the sunlight in the morning. If you can force yourself to a early sleep (either by tiring yourself one day) or slowly shifting it early each day, you will be able to change your sleep cycle.

Fellshard 7y ago
At least personally, I have found sunlight makes waking easier, smoother. So it's probably one factor out of several.

dpeck 7y ago

| Wake up 2-3 hours earlier than usual and get plenty of outdoor light in the morning | Eat breakfast as soon as possible | Exercise only in the morning | Have lunch at the same time every day and eat nothing after 19:00 | Banish caffeine after 15:00 | Have no naps after 16:00 | Go to bed 2-3 hours earlier than usual and limit light in the evenings | Maintain the same sleep and wake times every day So basically, stop being a night owl. Great advice.

accnumnplus1 7y ago
You beat me to it. Exactly - become a lark.
world32 7y ago
Yeah rubbish article.
koboll 7y ago
Most people who self-apply the title "night owls" are probably artificially inhibiting their sleep by blue light exposure, so this advice is useful to many.
- anonu 7y ago
  Is it right to assume that night owls are up in front of a screen?
  - stronglikedan 7y ago
    No, especially considering screens have only been around for a very small fraction of a percentage of time that night owls have, to the point of being negligible to discussion on the topic of night owls.
    - pavel_lishin 7y ago
      It's possible that the prevalence of screens is driving a significant number of people into the same sleeping patterns as natural night owls.
  - AllegedAlec 7y ago
    N == 1, but IME, even before screens were a thing in my house, when I was around eight years old, I still had huge issues sleeping early. I'd regularly lie in bed until one, two AM not being able to fall asleep.
- modzu 7y ago
  the distinction between larks and night owls is a robust psychological finding that predates iphones; there is some evidence to suggest it is genetic; and night owls represent a significant percentage of the population (about 20%). that isn't to discount the point about blue light exposure.
  - magnamerc 7y ago
    Night owls are absolutely real and they are genetically predisposed. In fact, night owls will always be night owls and there's really nothing you can do about it. Everyone should read Dr. Matthew Walker's book 'Why We Sleep'.
mabbo 7y ago
Ignoring the "go to bed" and "wake up" advice, one could be a night owl and still be healthier for following the rest of the advice. I myself used to be much more of a night owl- bed before 11:30 was just not going to happen. My wife is not. When we moved in together, I wanted to match her schedule. I started doing most of the things on this list and it worked for me. I went to bed last night at 10 and got up at 5:30 so I could go to the gym. Me of 10 years ago would have said that was impossible.
- stronglikedan 7y ago
  You'd also have to ignore the "Exercise only in the morning" advice. Exercising any time of day will keep you just as healthy.
  - JoelMcCracken 7y ago
    I don't have citations, but have read data that supports the idea that exercising in the evening results in higher cortisol levels, and thus lower levels of melatonin in the evenings.
    - stronglikedan 7y ago
      Sure, if you buy into the "you can't be a night owl and be healthy" thing (as this article seems to suggest). I think you can have both. I feel that making people think it's somehow better to exercise only in the morning will discourage some people from exercising daily, which I feel is more important than the time of day.
      - ehnto 7y ago
        The grandparent comment is also assuming that you want to sleep in the evening, which means you wouldn't be a night owl so it kind of misses the point. There are still lots of people in this thread assuming that the "problem" that night owls face is that they're not sleeping in the evening, that's not it at all. They're sleeping in their natural cycle, it just doesn't fit with typical modern life. So if exercising in the evening raises cortisol, and makes it hard to sleep for normal people, then that's not going to be a problem from someone sleeping at 4am. I train anywhere from 9pm-1am and always sleep better at what seems to be my natural sleep time, which is around 3-5am.
kzrdude 7y ago
It's what happened to me when I stopped using caffeine and started taking sleep seriously. I stopped being a night owl.
gubbrora 7y ago
I have found myself to feel much more energetic and happy when I rein in my night owl tendencies.
bryanlarsen 7y ago
They shifted study participants sleep time from 2:30AM to midnight. They're still night owls.
CodiePetersen 7y ago
Right xD. I was thinking it was going to be advice to be a more effective night owl and still get the rest you need.
lostmyoldone 7y ago
I love how the article essentially ends with "These are relatively simple things anyone can do that makes an impact, and that to me is surprising." No, those are not relatively simple things that anymore can do. Like getting that morning sunlight in the winter when sun rises close to 10? Not to mention my ADD causing every single new routine to be a continuous, unabating battle for years, at best! I really wish people would stop assuming that what is simple for them, just might not be it for anyone.
- 0815test 7y ago
  > Like getting that morning sunlight in the winter when sun rises close to 10? Blue LED's to the rescue! (ha ha only serious)
- rblatz 7y ago
  As someone that has ADD, do not use it as a crux for you to not improve yourself. It's offensive and in my experience just an excuse people tell themselves to justify being lazy.
  - ultimape 7y ago
    "lazy" > Research on ADHD has particularly emphasized impairments in inhibitory control (Barkley, 1997; Nigg, 2000) and working memory (Castellanos & Tannock, 2002; Martinussen, Hayden, Hogg-Johnson, & Tannock, 2005). Barkley’s (1997) model of ADHD emphasizes inhibitory control (i.e. inhibition of prepotent response, stopping an ongoing response, and interference control) as the primary neuropsychological impairment, which underlies secondary impairments in working memory and related functions https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425416/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425416/ Trouble managing and structuring time, remembering things, paying attention to relevant cues, and avoiding impulsive behavior are some of the defining factors of ADD. Have you considered that others with ADD have more extreme symptoms on a different axis from you, or perhaps their life experience and stress have amplified underlying proclivities? Or maybe they have mutations that make normal medication not effective.
    - 7y ago
TomK32 7y ago
Stop being so lefty and get used to everything being right-handed.
nprz 7y ago
|Comfortable |Not drinking too much |Regular exercise at the gym, 3 days a week |Getting on better with your associate employee contemporaries |At ease |Eating well, no more microwaved diners and saturated fats |A patient better driver, a safer car
ScottBurson 7y ago
I have found that eating dinner as early as possible — anyway, earlier than 8:30 or 9:00, which is my natural tendency — does help. I get an energy burst about an hour after dinner; it's hard (and pointless) to get myself to go to bed until it runs its course, so eating earlier is the only solution.
hinkley 7y ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/thanksimcured/ https://www.reddit.com/r/thanksimcured/
kpU8efre7r 7y ago
More like be consistent and have a routine. Really complex stuff, I know.

mysterypie 7y ago

> They focused on "night owls", whose bodies drive them to stay up late into the night. The problem for many night owls is fitting into a nine-to-five world. An alternative solution is to go ahead and live your life on the 25 or 26 hour cycle that your "night owl" body demands. You'll need to be single (or partnered with a similar night owl), have light-proof curtains or blinds, and work independently (or remotely for an accommodating company). And probably you'll want to live in a major urban area so you have access to 24-hour restaurants, supermarkets, and other resources when your constantly shifting day/night cycle leaves you awake at night.

ptah 7y ago
it looks like you can cut diabetes risk and mental health risk by switching https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43711631 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43711631
- mysterypie 7y ago
  Interesting quote from your article: > The paper's authors ... said it was likely that people with late body clocks were being harmed by having to adjust their habits to a "morning lark world". Scientists say that about 40% to 70% of a person's circadian rhythm, or body clock, is genetic. Part of it you don't have any control over. In other words, the "night owls" might have health problems because of the effort and stress of trying to keep their body clock in sync with the rest of the world. If they could live a 25 or 26 hour day, they might be just as fit as the 24-hour "morning larks".
  - ptah 7y ago
    possibly yes, but how likely is that to happen? I'm actually a proponent of living in shifts with offices and shops open 24 hours and people being in "office hours" at different times. it would solve a lot of problems with traffic etc.

ptah 7y ago

I found it also helps to go to bed before that late night "second wind" kicks in

WaltPurvis 7y ago
True for me. I often get really sleepy around 9-10 PM. When I force myself to go to bed right then, when my eyelids are heavy, I usually sleep through the night (with perhaps a 15-minute semi-awake period in the middle) and wake around dawn feeling well-rested. But if I shrug off my drowsiness, I usually get a second wind around 11 that will keep me going until at least 1 AM, and then the next day I don't feel rested at all.
- ehnto 7y ago
  I have vastly different values but same effect. If I sleep when I am drowsy I sleep solid for 1 to 3 hours, then I am awake for sometimes 3 hours after that. If I sleep again it's solid until midday, which leaves me waking up at the same time as before except with 3 hours wasted awake in bed in the middle. If I take the second wind I am awake until early morning and then out like a light for a solid 8 hours, again waking at midday. I have tried dozens of possible schedules and I eventually revert to this if given time. When working a 9-5 it inevitably turns into an 11-7 and I am tired all the time regardless.
  - ptah 7y ago
    that reminds me: in the past humans had 2 sleeps and an awake period in the middle. you could try and get up and get some work done in that middle period? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783
    - psalminen 7y ago
      I did that for about 3 months this year. I would go to bed around 6, wake up at 10. Then I would eat, go for a walk, and work on my hobbies/side projects until about 3AM and sleep until 7AM. It was honestly a very refreshing way to live.

neves 7y ago

Well, I don't think these are "simple" tweaks. If you are a single person and must wake up every day at the same hour, won't do anything at night. If you just have time to exercise at evening, you wouldn't exercise anymore.

Zenst 7y ago

This 9-5 mentality being imposed in a way that if your sleep pattern is an owl, you're kinda ostracized and viewed as an issue you need to fix, has been going on forever. When the crux suggestion from this `research` is to go to bed 2-3 hours earlier and wake up 2-3 hours earlier and presuming the person does not have DSPS (Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome) or other genetic trait that causes this is, and always is, offencive. The way we treat night owls is akin to mental health in the 40's. Not everybody works 9-5, not every job can be fitted into a 9-5. But many of the jobs allocated 9-5 could equally benefit from flexi-time and have those who wake up early come in earlier and those who wake up late, come in later. Covering more hours, and cater for those who are equally not 9-5 people. It's time work hours got some research, not the people being forced into this arbitrary cookie-cutter mentality. Some companies already do flexi-time and cater for such people, but time and time again, the media and research go to mentality is in viewing such peoples as an issue in a way that parallels many forms of negative science we have seen historically upon many differences between humans. People's sleep patterns are not unified, not even binary, and people should be able to find the sleep pattern that works for them and not be forced into all wearing the same dictated sleep pattern. With that, the way to boost wellbeing of night owls is: 1) Stop treating them as an issue but an opportunity and embrace that diversity. 2) See point one and stop repeating the same mistakes with different categorisation.

scardine 7y ago
Well, in my trade (software development) it is becoming irrelevant with more and more companies embracing remote working. I'm a night owl living in Brazil so when I take a job in CT I can sleep 2 hours more and still be seen as an early bird. I can sleep even more if the main office is in the west cost. São Paulo is a huge, sleepless city (10 million citizens), you have excellent 24 x 7 options for almost everything.
Zenst 7y ago
I'd also add that by forcing a 9-5 mentality we create a situation which has everybody traveling to and from work at the same time, yielding delays adding to stress, pollution... Not saying that by solving the 9-5 mentality we will solve climate change, but it sure would be a measurable improvement on that front as well as mental health as a whole. Maybe somebody should research that.

anonu 7y ago

My issue is I get a ton more work done at night when you don't have a million distractions going on: emails, meetings, loud noises, conversations, etc... All of that dissipates or disappears into the late evening - and focusing becomes easier.

js8 7y ago

I am a night owl, and tried to shift the sleep cycle to earlier (get in bed earlier and wake up earlier). However, what I observed (when I went to the bed earlier) was that then I wake up very very early in the morning (around 5), but then after about an hour or two I became very sleepy again. Is this supposed to happen if you try to shift the sleep cycle?

ehnto 7y ago
I get that regardless of my schedule, which changes a lot. Between 2 to 4 hours after I wake up I feel like I need to sleep immediately and can barely focus. About an hour later I'm alert again.
jchanimal 7y ago
When you start to get enough sleep, it's normal to become biphasic. That is, wake up in the night and go back to sleep. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphasic_and_polyphasic_sleep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphasic_and_polyphasic_sleep
lostmyoldone 7y ago
Almost exactly what happens to me the odd periods I manage to sleep early. Fall asleep before 22:30, wake up 04:15-04:30. Then I get a bit spacey between 6-7. After 2230 I don't wake up until about 9

hacknat 7y ago

The only real advice here is: - Exercise only in the morning - Have lunch at the same time every day and eat nothing after 19:00 - Banish caffeine after 15:00 everything else is "stop being a night owl".

stronglikedan 7y ago
"Exercise only in the morning" is terrible advice. I cannot wake up one second earlier than I must in order to get to work on time. If I followed that advice, I would never exercise. The best advice is to find time to exercise every day, no matter what time that may be.
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  Don't want to? If we redefine exercise as part of the day's work, then is it better advice?
  - stronglikedan 7y ago
    Not until I get paid cold hard cash to do it. ;-) I'm not saying I don't exercise. I just do it in the evening after work, when I feel it provides a couple of benefits. (1) I do it consistently every day, because I feel more "up to it" at that time. (2) I feel that it helps relieve the stress of my work day, since focusing on my form and nothing else is almost meditative to me. I just feel that making people think it's somehow better to exercise only in the morning will discourage some people from exercising daily, which I feel is more important than the time of day.
- tbirrell 7y ago
  I am the same way. I have trouble falling asleep (will toss and turn for 45 minutes to 2 hours), so I'm loathe to wake up before I absolutely have to, because once I'm asleep, I want to stay that way. As a result, I just schedule my day so that I work 8 hours, then do everything else. It has its downsides, but its better than everything else I've tried.
- mi100hael 7y ago

viburnum 7y ago

For me going to bed at 1am or 8pm works, but if I try anything in the middle, I just stay up until 1am.

seba_dos1 7y ago

"Scientists studied 21 "extreme night owls" who were going to bed, on average, at 02:30 and not waking until after 10:00. " I guess that makes me an extremely extreme night owl then.

chadlavi 7y ago

these "tweaks" boil down to "stop being a night owl." If I could wake up hours earlier and make myself go to sleep hours earlier I wouldn't be in this mess, BBC.

glastra 7y ago

Is there any research around that tests whether self-defined "night owls" are immune to the hormonal effects of sunrise and sundown (as visual stimuli)? I once considered myself one, until I started actually rolling the blinds up in the mornings (Spanish blinds block all light) and staying away from blue light in the evenings. Being brought up in a cloudy, rainy town and having a very obstructed view of the outside from my bedroom window didn't help, I must admit. Also I wonder if certain habits and behaviors, like dopamine-induced compulsive social browsing or gaming, food addictions, etc. play a role here.

nr152522 7y ago

A stalk delivered me a child and in one single transformation, I turned from night owl into Super Lark!!

TheGRS 7y ago

This article is kind of dumb, basically saying that you shouldn't be a night owl, but I will admit that my quality of life is improved when I'm in a natural rhythm of going to bed "on time" and waking up early-ish, getting at least 7 1/2 hours of sleep per day. Around 2-3 cups of coffee per day seem fine, anymore and I need to scale it back. One cup doesn't do it for me. I also now get to work early and don't stress if I'm occasionally late. The early bird gets the worm, so no matter how much we'd like to adjust society to be accepting of different sleep schedules, early risers will always have a natural advantage.

daenz 7y ago

I've had sleep problems for as long as I can remember. I self-diagnosed Non-24 Sleep-Wake Disorder, where your body clock is typically slightly longer than a 24 hours, and so you feel tired later and later every day, eventually going to sleep is nearly impossible. It makes keeping to a normal routine extremely difficult. The fix for me was morning blue light lamp, as soon as I wake up, for one hour. And 1.5 hours before bedtime, I take 500mcg melatonin. These 2 things worked like a miracle. I kept a log of doing these things, and the exact time I performed them, for a month. After a month, the habit was there, and I know have a normal sleep pattern, so long as I stick to the light and the supplement. It's had a huge impact on my life. EDIT>> 500mcg, not mg

balfirevic 7y ago
I'm in the same situation. What blue light lamp are you using? How did you settle on your current melatonin regime? Also, any other advice that you may have would be appreciated, thanks!
- daenz 7y ago
  This is the lamp https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079YBGPM5 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079YBGPM5. The important aspect of it is to have it within 12 inches of your face when using it, but not directly in your eyes (can mess with your eyes). I usually have mine in front of my keyboard, tilted up, so the majority of the light is coming in from the bottom of my eyes. As far as melatonin, I have to point out that I edited my post to say 500mcg (0.5mg) not 500mg. I've done some reading that the light doses work very well http://news.mit.edu/2005/melatonin http://news.mit.edu/2005/melatonin. I haven't really tinkered with the dosage much, because the dosage I started with seems to work well. The last thing I will say is that keeping a log is important. I've never been one to keep logs for things, but I knew if I was going to fix this problem and make it a habit, I needed to stick to it rigidly for a month. That's what it took for the habit to form, and I'm glad I did it. Best of luck!
  - theonething 7y ago
    Thank you for the details! Same situation, trouble going to sleep for most of my adult life. Going to give this a shot to see how it works for me.

molbioguy 7y ago

One item mentioned in the article that matches my personal experience is the importance of sleep consistency or regularity. Waking up at the same time and sleeping at the same time each night has been beneficial, even if those regular times are shifted from what the article suggests. There was a study that touched on this [0]. [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-03171-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-03171-4

jechamt 7y ago

To the other night owls out there, I would love to know: -Do you struggle to sleep every day? Or is it only as the work/school/lark-world responsibilities progress through the week? -Would you characterize your difficulty as struggling to sleep or struggling to wake up, or both? -How does this impact your days off (i.e. weekends), and what is the first and last day off typically like in comparison? -Is this the kind of struggle that you manage, but it frustrates you, or has other effects, or is it something that regularly threatens to derail your life? (i.e. late for work or class, or other real-life consequences) -Do you feel like it is something you will always live with, or do you feel that there could be a lifestyle/solution, either involving your change, or accommodating to your current behavior and/or natural inclination? I'm a night owl, and I won't go into detail about my situation with hope to not impact responses too much, but it would help me (and hopefully others!) to understand just how similar/different I may be. Thank you!

lostdog 7y ago

One excerpt from the article [1]: > Individuals were screened for no diagnoses of sleep or neurological disorders via self-report and were not taking any medications that affected sleep, melatonin and cortisol rhythms. I'm really curious if insomnia or DSPD counts as a sleep disorder here. I guess the core point of the study is, if you force yourself to be on a morning schedule for a few weeks and follow basic sleep hygiene, then it will work and you will feel better. I don't know what to take away from this. I already follow their protocol, but my sleep onset is still naturally around 1:30am. For me, when I go to bed earlier, I fall asleep even later than usual, since I just doze for an hour and am even more awake. When I wake up earlier, I tend to fall asleep during the day. (I test negative for sleep apnea). The comments here are pretty split between "I just tried getting up earlier and it worked great!" and "I do all of this and it doesn't work at all," so my experience isn't unusual. It reminds me a lot of comments on anti-depressant efficacy. So I'll probably do the same thing I do every time a study like this comes out: Follow the sleep protocol more carefully for a few weeks, then feel discouraged when it gives no results, then feel even worse from the comments claiming that I am just being lazy. And then finally I will remember that the science on this subject is weak and incomplete, that morning people's unyielding sense of righteousness and morality is based on nothing, and that maybe someday we will discover universal methods of adjusting sleep schedules. [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1389945719301388 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S138994571... and if you cannot access the full text, sci-hub.tw may be helpful

jlarocco 7y ago

I personally enjoy being a night owl. I get plenty of excercise, sunlight, and sleep, and I've never had a problem at any of my workplaces for arriving late (say between 10 and 11) and then working late to compensate. Furthermore, the article is common sense. Obviously, shifting my daily routine 3 hours would shift my daily routine 3 hours, and I'd eventually get used to it, but why would I want to?

danschumann 7y ago

Can someone reply to this comment if they see it in a few weeks and see if it's been working for me? :D

chillytoes 7y ago

I struggled with insomnia for about 3 years before finding something which worked for me: magnesium supplements. Learned about them through a random Hacker News comment.

person_of_color 7y ago

Anything to help STAY asleep in the night? I've lost the ability to sleep in one sitting and it irks me.