6 ms·

Toyota announces sustainable vehicle ecosystem [video]

43 points by ajflores1604 7y ago

Animats 7y ago
Is there anything other than this oversimplified Youtube cartoon describing this? Is this a battery swap system, or what? Battery swapping seems to be an obsolete technology. Battery capacities are now big enough, and charging is fast enough, that it's not worth the hassle.
- taneq 7y ago
  It'd be just perfect for Toyota, then, once they give up on Hydrogen, The Fuel Of The Future.
  - jarym 7y ago
    I was going to say this - Toyota gave up on batteries after building the Prius. Their hydrogen fuel cell is clearly not the way the industry is going. So are they going back to batteries, the tech they said would never be commercially viable?
    - solarkraft 7y ago
      If they don't want to die completely, they should probably build BEVs. This seems to be a sign of them slowly realising that.
    - melkiaur 7y ago
      Wait. I thought their hydrogen cars were hybrid cars, just like the prius. Why do you say they gave up on batteries ?
      - glogla 7y ago
        Kinda. H2EV don't "burn" the hydrogen, because fuel cells are much better than engines that burn stuff in cylinders. So you end up with electormotor and fuel cell. And since you can recuperate into fuel cell and fuel cells aren't very good at providing big short peaks of power, it makes sense to add a battery to smooth things out and to store energy when braking. But the battery doesn't need high-capacity, because it's just a temporary store of energy. It's a very different battery technology than what you find in a Tesla or Kia e-Niro or whatever. In the end, Toyota H2EV (Mirai) is basically 1) electromotor from Lexus hybrid 2) battery from Prius 3) Fuel cell.
  - clouddrover 7y ago
    Toyota will do both battery and fuel cell electric vehicles. Hyundai is also doing that: https://www.electrive.com/2019/06/05/hyundai-to-sell-their-fc-drives-to-competitors/ https://www.electrive.com/2019/06/05/hyundai-to-sell-their-f... And Volkswagen is keeping fuel cell cars open as an option: https://www.audi.com/en/experience-audi/models-and-technology/concept-cars/audi-h-tron-quattro.html https://www.audi.com/en/experience-audi/models-and-technolog...
    - glogla 7y ago
      There's a lot of synergy in doing both. Battery EV is high-capacity battery + engine + thermal management system for the battery. Hydrogen EV is fuel cell + low-capacity battery (for smoothing out peaks and recuperation) + engine + thermal management system for the fuel cells. BEV have low price per km (here it's about 1/4 compared to gas cars), but lower range, while H2EV have higher price per km (in Germany where there's actually infrastructure available, its about the same price per km as gas car) but higher range, so it can make sense for some use-cases, like long-range buses or whatever. You could even build Plug-in Hydrogen EV with medium capacity battery and have BEV-like usage where you charge at home but still get 1000 km range if necessary - it seems needlessly complex, but it just means adding bigger battery and charging port to H2EV, so it can make sense.
      - clouddrover 7y ago
        Another potential advantage of fuel cell cars is a lower purchase price. Toyota thinks FCEVs might become cheaper to buy than even ICE cars: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26050/exclusive-toyota-hydrogen-boss-explains-how-fuel-cells-can-achieve-corolla-costs https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26050/exclusive-toyota-hydroge...
        glogla 7y ago
        It might be in the future. Here (EU) and now (2019), they cost as much as BEV, while fuel costs as much as fuel for ICE, giving you the worst of both worlds.
  - adev_ 7y ago
    > It'd be just perfect for Toyota, then, once they give up on Hydrogen, The Fuel Of The Future. Before getting back to Hydrogen when the world realize there is not enough Cobalt and Lithium on Earth for every car.
    - taneq 7y ago
      Cobalt is an engineering problem and on its way to being solved: https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/17/teslas-cobalt-usage-to-drop-from-3-today-to-0-elon-commits/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/17/teslas-cobalt-usage-to-... We're not going to run out of lithium any time soon, current supplies are limited only by the fact that it's only been desirable for a few years. There's a LOT of lithium mining capacity coming online now or in the near future. Hydrogen was a dead end in 2000 and it's only getting deader.
      - adev_ 7y ago
        > Hydrogen was a dead end in 2000 and it's only getting deader Easy sentence with no content. Dead on which aspect ? In Elon Musk propaganda speech ? Hydrogen never was a dead end technically. It's only blocker is cost of generation, cost that goes away with scale and cheaper electricity.
        whitezombie 7y ago
        And the massively expensive catalyst materials. And their pathetic power output. And the fact that despite Hindenburg memes, compressed hydrogen is extremely dangerous. Go look up Thunderfoots video about compressed hydrogen and HFC cars. And before you have a musk fanboy seizure, please note that thunder foot hates Elon musk more than anyone else on YouTube. And also take note of the fact that calling someone a fanboy is not an argument and it doesn’t make you right. Hydrogen cars already require a battery. Inevitably, the battery will get bigger and the fuel cell will get smaller and what do you know, it’s a BEV with a hydrogen range extender just like everyone told you.
        adev_ 7y ago
- stunt 7y ago
  Well, they are still called batteries. So I assume they are still rechargeable and you can charge your battery. I think the idea is to save you time at charging station if you can do a swap and go. + increase the performance life of your car by making it cheap to replace the battery. Unless making ultra fast rechargeable batteries is sustainable, safe, and environment-friendly, Battery swapping is a good option.
  - imeron 7y ago
    Tesla has battery swapping in the Model S. They discontinued it because no one used it. Why? https://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-battery-swapping-plan-isnt-working-out-2015-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-battery-swapping-plan...
    - maccard 7y ago
      I think the answer is in the article in thios case > Plugged into a Supercharger, a Model S battery can be charged to 80% capacity in just 40 minutes, free of charge. On the other hand, a battery swap is by appointment only and could cost the driver between $60 and $80. There's also the question of "where can I swap my battery?". Charging stations are now common enough[0] that it's not a worry for people who would consider an Electric Car. [0] Within reason...
- riffraff 7y ago
  Is charging really fast enough? I do not have the possibility to charge an electric car overnight, because I live in an apartment and the building has no garage. Can I just charge my car before going to work in the morning in 5 minutes, like I do with petrol?
  - clouddrover 7y ago
    Depends on the car. The Porsche Taycan is supposed to be able to charge to 80% state of charge in 20 minutes. And it's supposed to be able to add 180 miles of range in 9 minutes: https://www.drivingelectric.com/porsche/469/new-porsche-taycan-2020-specs-pictures-and-sale-date https://www.drivingelectric.com/porsche/469/new-porsche-tayc...
  - wurst_case 7y ago
    Tldr: sort of. Better answer: it depends on how charged your battery pack is at the time. New Tesla superchargers have been able to charge Model 3s up to 420 mph. That is if the charging continued at that rate for one hour, that battery pack would give you 420 miles of range. But as you charge a battery, the rate at which you charge slows down. Think of it as stuffing a pillow, the more stuffing you have in your pillow, the harder you have to push to cram that stuffing in. In this case voltage is pushing electrical current into your battery. Recently, Tesla has been upgrading their charging stations to have higher voltage which means faster charging. In the attached article you'll see that they say in optimal conditions you'll be able to add 75 miles of range to your battery pack in 5 minutes. To help optimize your battery, a software update 'warms up' your battery pack before you get to the charger as long as you put it in your vehicles map. I'm not sure what warming up means exactly or how heat would help but I'm sure someone else could explain that better than me. So yeah, if you work less than 75 miles away, you could get a quick 5 min boost. But it would be advisable for long term health of your battery pack to charge it up to ~%80 each time. Again, I'm not the guy to explain why that is. So you'd want to plan ahead a bit. If I'm imagining being in that situation where I'm late for work and I don't have enough juice to get there I would put the nearest supercharger in the navigation, fuel up for 5min, and then charge at work probably from a slow charger, and on my way home I'd stop at that supercharger again and top it off for 30min while I got a coffee or groceries (or browsed hacker news). And I'd try not to let that happen again because it could wear out that battery. Sorry for the long reply but I hope this gives you a glimpse of the reality of EV ownership. I'm a prospective owner and have been doing some reading up on what to expect, if anyone has some input I would love to read it. https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging
tomglynch 7y ago
Standardisation is good - if it's adopted by others. Hopefully this one is as I see a need for it. Though, I can also see this happening: "None of the old standards are good enough, let's create a new standard", and now there are N+1 standards.
hybridtupel 7y ago
Looks more like an ad to me.
spectramax 7y ago
First two aspects are good. Battery sharing can really scale well and decrease production costs by standardization. And, a shared vehicle can reduce traffic amongst many other benefits. "Information Sharing" - No thanks. I don't want a shared vehicle to be able to watch me go into my house. The more I see the future of increased connectivity, the more I detest it. I want technology to solve hard problems but without butchering people's right to privacy and undeserved pervasive intrusion in people's lives. I don't want a single IOT device in my house. No IOT locks, bulbs, fridges, coffee makers, speakers and... cars. I am almost angry thinking about the future. The last point almost reads like satire in the video. Also, videos like this are 100% useless. It is fluff but no substance. Give us detailed plans, schedule, specifics on how you'll achieve all this, technology whitepapers. This video is utterly and completely useless.
sjwright 7y ago
That seemed more like a high school project than the output of the world's largest auto maker. I don't understand what they're trying to tell me, other than perhaps "Toyota hired a futurist and an animator and told them to make a YouTube video." Also, can anyone explain the "The Future Is Slow" tagline at the end? It was jarring and made me wonder if the whole thing is supposed to be parody.
whitezombie 7y ago
This is unmitigated bullshit. A huge PR stunt. Sharing batteries doesn’t work. That’s why Tesla dropped it even though the cars are designed to have batteries swapped in minutes. The only way for battery swaps to work is if truly nobody owns their own car. Which brings me to the next point. Nobody wants to share their fucking car in America. Your car is your best friend in 90 percent of the country. Nobody wants dirty strangers fucking up their cars. Nobody wants the bed bugs, scabies, dandruff flakes and all the rest. Not to mention crumbs and garbage. It’s bullshit. There will never be widespread car sharing. People have been stroking themselves to this idea for a Fucking decade. And when they started showing images of the car CATCHING INTRUDERS and opening your door for you, my bullshit alarm rang so loud it fucking exploded. We already depend on a pile of broken bullshit taped together with scotch tape. Taking the disaster that is the IOT and using it to open your door WITH YOUR CAR is a stupid and bad idea and everyone knows it except the idiots at Toyota PR. Toyota has been making the wrong moves for decades. They INSISTED on making the murai even when it was clear that hydrogen wasn’t going to cut it. The EV revolution is here and all Toyota has is their pathetic failed hydrogen vehicle and the rav4 that they have cancelled and hamstrung multiple times. Meanwhile all the other big players have been busy getting pure EVs on the lot. This is solar roadways levels of bullshit!
- pizzabearman 7y ago
  I am actually glad a small portion of the car industry is working an alternative to Battery power. Hydrogen makes sense is some very limited areas right now (long range scenarios), but inefficiency of it makes it very dumb system right now. I could see it making more sense if in the future we would really implement a lot of cheaper electricity power plants (fusion power).
  - schiffern 7y ago
    > I could see it making more sense if in the future we would really implement a lot of cheaper electricity power plants (fusion power). Even in that case, wouldn't the higher-efficiency EV still be cheaper? As a general rule, if the feasibility of any demand-side cleantech depends on power "too cheap to meter" (or something close to it), you're going to have a bad time.
acchow 7y ago
"They can also learn their owners' habits and anticipate peoples' needs - unlocking doors as they approach, reminding them of errands and appointments, and using AI to suggest new destinations and activities to enjoy." What does that have anything to do with a vision based on battery sharing?
agumonkey 7y ago
Any other brand is trying to create a platform like this ? Beside Tesla, obv.

43 points by ajflores1604 7y ago

Is there anything other than this oversimplified Youtube cartoon describing this? Is this a battery swap system, or what? Battery swapping seems to be an obsolete technology. Battery capacities are now big enough, and charging is fast enough, that it's not worth the hassle.

taneq 7y ago
It'd be just perfect for Toyota, then, once they give up on Hydrogen, The Fuel Of The Future.
- jarym 7y ago
  I was going to say this - Toyota gave up on batteries after building the Prius. Their hydrogen fuel cell is clearly not the way the industry is going. So are they going back to batteries, the tech they said would never be commercially viable?
  - solarkraft 7y ago
    If they don't want to die completely, they should probably build BEVs. This seems to be a sign of them slowly realising that.
  - melkiaur 7y ago
    Wait. I thought their hydrogen cars were hybrid cars, just like the prius. Why do you say they gave up on batteries ?
    - glogla 7y ago
      Kinda. H2EV don't "burn" the hydrogen, because fuel cells are much better than engines that burn stuff in cylinders. So you end up with electormotor and fuel cell. And since you can recuperate into fuel cell and fuel cells aren't very good at providing big short peaks of power, it makes sense to add a battery to smooth things out and to store energy when braking. But the battery doesn't need high-capacity, because it's just a temporary store of energy. It's a very different battery technology than what you find in a Tesla or Kia e-Niro or whatever. In the end, Toyota H2EV (Mirai) is basically 1) electromotor from Lexus hybrid 2) battery from Prius 3) Fuel cell.
- clouddrover 7y ago
  Toyota will do both battery and fuel cell electric vehicles. Hyundai is also doing that: https://www.electrive.com/2019/06/05/hyundai-to-sell-their-fc-drives-to-competitors/ https://www.electrive.com/2019/06/05/hyundai-to-sell-their-f... And Volkswagen is keeping fuel cell cars open as an option: https://www.audi.com/en/experience-audi/models-and-technology/concept-cars/audi-h-tron-quattro.html https://www.audi.com/en/experience-audi/models-and-technolog...
  - glogla 7y ago
    There's a lot of synergy in doing both. Battery EV is high-capacity battery + engine + thermal management system for the battery. Hydrogen EV is fuel cell + low-capacity battery (for smoothing out peaks and recuperation) + engine + thermal management system for the fuel cells. BEV have low price per km (here it's about 1/4 compared to gas cars), but lower range, while H2EV have higher price per km (in Germany where there's actually infrastructure available, its about the same price per km as gas car) but higher range, so it can make sense for some use-cases, like long-range buses or whatever. You could even build Plug-in Hydrogen EV with medium capacity battery and have BEV-like usage where you charge at home but still get 1000 km range if necessary - it seems needlessly complex, but it just means adding bigger battery and charging port to H2EV, so it can make sense.
    - clouddrover 7y ago
      Another potential advantage of fuel cell cars is a lower purchase price. Toyota thinks FCEVs might become cheaper to buy than even ICE cars: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26050/exclusive-toyota-hydrogen-boss-explains-how-fuel-cells-can-achieve-corolla-costs https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26050/exclusive-toyota-hydroge...
      - glogla 7y ago
        It might be in the future. Here (EU) and now (2019), they cost as much as BEV, while fuel costs as much as fuel for ICE, giving you the worst of both worlds.
- adev_ 7y ago
  > It'd be just perfect for Toyota, then, once they give up on Hydrogen, The Fuel Of The Future. Before getting back to Hydrogen when the world realize there is not enough Cobalt and Lithium on Earth for every car.
  - taneq 7y ago
    Cobalt is an engineering problem and on its way to being solved: https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/17/teslas-cobalt-usage-to-drop-from-3-today-to-0-elon-commits/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/17/teslas-cobalt-usage-to-... We're not going to run out of lithium any time soon, current supplies are limited only by the fact that it's only been desirable for a few years. There's a LOT of lithium mining capacity coming online now or in the near future. Hydrogen was a dead end in 2000 and it's only getting deader.
    - adev_ 7y ago
      > Hydrogen was a dead end in 2000 and it's only getting deader Easy sentence with no content. Dead on which aspect ? In Elon Musk propaganda speech ? Hydrogen never was a dead end technically. It's only blocker is cost of generation, cost that goes away with scale and cheaper electricity.
      - whitezombie 7y ago
        And the massively expensive catalyst materials. And their pathetic power output. And the fact that despite Hindenburg memes, compressed hydrogen is extremely dangerous. Go look up Thunderfoots video about compressed hydrogen and HFC cars. And before you have a musk fanboy seizure, please note that thunder foot hates Elon musk more than anyone else on YouTube. And also take note of the fact that calling someone a fanboy is not an argument and it doesn’t make you right. Hydrogen cars already require a battery. Inevitably, the battery will get bigger and the fuel cell will get smaller and what do you know, it’s a BEV with a hydrogen range extender just like everyone told you.
        adev_ 7y ago
stunt 7y ago
Well, they are still called batteries. So I assume they are still rechargeable and you can charge your battery. I think the idea is to save you time at charging station if you can do a swap and go. + increase the performance life of your car by making it cheap to replace the battery. Unless making ultra fast rechargeable batteries is sustainable, safe, and environment-friendly, Battery swapping is a good option.
- imeron 7y ago
  Tesla has battery swapping in the Model S. They discontinued it because no one used it. Why? https://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-battery-swapping-plan-isnt-working-out-2015-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-battery-swapping-plan...
  - maccard 7y ago
    I think the answer is in the article in thios case > Plugged into a Supercharger, a Model S battery can be charged to 80% capacity in just 40 minutes, free of charge. On the other hand, a battery swap is by appointment only and could cost the driver between $60 and $80. There's also the question of "where can I swap my battery?". Charging stations are now common enough[0] that it's not a worry for people who would consider an Electric Car. [0] Within reason...
riffraff 7y ago
Is charging really fast enough? I do not have the possibility to charge an electric car overnight, because I live in an apartment and the building has no garage. Can I just charge my car before going to work in the morning in 5 minutes, like I do with petrol?
- clouddrover 7y ago
  Depends on the car. The Porsche Taycan is supposed to be able to charge to 80% state of charge in 20 minutes. And it's supposed to be able to add 180 miles of range in 9 minutes: https://www.drivingelectric.com/porsche/469/new-porsche-taycan-2020-specs-pictures-and-sale-date https://www.drivingelectric.com/porsche/469/new-porsche-tayc...
- wurst_case 7y ago
  Tldr: sort of. Better answer: it depends on how charged your battery pack is at the time. New Tesla superchargers have been able to charge Model 3s up to 420 mph. That is if the charging continued at that rate for one hour, that battery pack would give you 420 miles of range. But as you charge a battery, the rate at which you charge slows down. Think of it as stuffing a pillow, the more stuffing you have in your pillow, the harder you have to push to cram that stuffing in. In this case voltage is pushing electrical current into your battery. Recently, Tesla has been upgrading their charging stations to have higher voltage which means faster charging. In the attached article you'll see that they say in optimal conditions you'll be able to add 75 miles of range to your battery pack in 5 minutes. To help optimize your battery, a software update 'warms up' your battery pack before you get to the charger as long as you put it in your vehicles map. I'm not sure what warming up means exactly or how heat would help but I'm sure someone else could explain that better than me. So yeah, if you work less than 75 miles away, you could get a quick 5 min boost. But it would be advisable for long term health of your battery pack to charge it up to ~%80 each time. Again, I'm not the guy to explain why that is. So you'd want to plan ahead a bit. If I'm imagining being in that situation where I'm late for work and I don't have enough juice to get there I would put the nearest supercharger in the navigation, fuel up for 5min, and then charge at work probably from a slow charger, and on my way home I'd stop at that supercharger again and top it off for 30min while I got a coffee or groceries (or browsed hacker news). And I'd try not to let that happen again because it could wear out that battery. Sorry for the long reply but I hope this gives you a glimpse of the reality of EV ownership. I'm a prospective owner and have been doing some reading up on what to expect, if anyone has some input I would love to read it. https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging

tomglynch 7y ago

Standardisation is good - if it's adopted by others. Hopefully this one is as I see a need for it. Though, I can also see this happening: "None of the old standards are good enough, let's create a new standard", and now there are N+1 standards.

hybridtupel 7y ago

Looks more like an ad to me.

spectramax 7y ago

First two aspects are good. Battery sharing can really scale well and decrease production costs by standardization. And, a shared vehicle can reduce traffic amongst many other benefits. "Information Sharing" - No thanks. I don't want a shared vehicle to be able to watch me go into my house. The more I see the future of increased connectivity, the more I detest it. I want technology to solve hard problems but without butchering people's right to privacy and undeserved pervasive intrusion in people's lives. I don't want a single IOT device in my house. No IOT locks, bulbs, fridges, coffee makers, speakers and... cars. I am almost angry thinking about the future. The last point almost reads like satire in the video. Also, videos like this are 100% useless. It is fluff but no substance. Give us detailed plans, schedule, specifics on how you'll achieve all this, technology whitepapers. This video is utterly and completely useless.

sjwright 7y ago

That seemed more like a high school project than the output of the world's largest auto maker. I don't understand what they're trying to tell me, other than perhaps "Toyota hired a futurist and an animator and told them to make a YouTube video." Also, can anyone explain the "The Future Is Slow" tagline at the end? It was jarring and made me wonder if the whole thing is supposed to be parody.

whitezombie 7y ago

This is unmitigated bullshit. A huge PR stunt. Sharing batteries doesn’t work. That’s why Tesla dropped it even though the cars are designed to have batteries swapped in minutes. The only way for battery swaps to work is if truly nobody owns their own car. Which brings me to the next point. Nobody wants to share their fucking car in America. Your car is your best friend in 90 percent of the country. Nobody wants dirty strangers fucking up their cars. Nobody wants the bed bugs, scabies, dandruff flakes and all the rest. Not to mention crumbs and garbage. It’s bullshit. There will never be widespread car sharing. People have been stroking themselves to this idea for a Fucking decade. And when they started showing images of the car CATCHING INTRUDERS and opening your door for you, my bullshit alarm rang so loud it fucking exploded. We already depend on a pile of broken bullshit taped together with scotch tape. Taking the disaster that is the IOT and using it to open your door WITH YOUR CAR is a stupid and bad idea and everyone knows it except the idiots at Toyota PR. Toyota has been making the wrong moves for decades. They INSISTED on making the murai even when it was clear that hydrogen wasn’t going to cut it. The EV revolution is here and all Toyota has is their pathetic failed hydrogen vehicle and the rav4 that they have cancelled and hamstrung multiple times. Meanwhile all the other big players have been busy getting pure EVs on the lot. This is solar roadways levels of bullshit!

pizzabearman 7y ago
I am actually glad a small portion of the car industry is working an alternative to Battery power. Hydrogen makes sense is some very limited areas right now (long range scenarios), but inefficiency of it makes it very dumb system right now. I could see it making more sense if in the future we would really implement a lot of cheaper electricity power plants (fusion power).
- schiffern 7y ago
  > I could see it making more sense if in the future we would really implement a lot of cheaper electricity power plants (fusion power). Even in that case, wouldn't the higher-efficiency EV still be cheaper? As a general rule, if the feasibility of any demand-side cleantech depends on power "too cheap to meter" (or something close to it), you're going to have a bad time.

acchow 7y ago

"They can also learn their owners' habits and anticipate peoples' needs - unlocking doors as they approach, reminding them of errands and appointments, and using AI to suggest new destinations and activities to enjoy." What does that have anything to do with a vision based on battery sharing?

agumonkey 7y ago

Any other brand is trying to create a platform like this ? Beside Tesla, obv.