11 ms·

the multi-tasking/multi-window looks incredibly complicated, full of hidden gestures/commands that aren't really discoverable

by sylens 7y ago

jordache 7y ago
yeah but once you learn it, you'll retain the knowledge
- stcredzero 7y ago
  yeah but once you learn it, you'll retain the knowledge Pretty much the attitude of people learning Windows or MacOS in the late 90's. ("literacy") It's gone from having to win an audience in the early iOS days, to firmly having the audience in the company's grasp.
  - jordache 7y ago
    what's the solution? not implement multi-finger gestures due to complexity and just omit the feature altogether? I'd rather have those capabilities? My drawing apps on iOS all have tons of multi-touch gestures. I appreciate they are there.
    - stcredzero 7y ago
      what's the solution? Who says the situation needs solving? I'm just providing perspective. I'd rather have those capabilities? My drawing apps on iOS all have tons of multi-touch gestures. I appreciate they are there. That's the same attitude people had about Ctrl and Alt key shortcuts and power user features and function keys.
      - jordache 7y ago
        >Who says the situation needs solving? Of course it needs to be solved. You have finite screen real estate. Lack of physical buttons. Multi-touch gestures is a natural space for user input.
    - ben_w 7y ago
      Making things discoverable and easy to learn is an art in its own right, completely separate to the art of programming.
      - b1daly 7y ago
        Well yeah, but don’t you think this is exceptionally hard with a touch screen? Didn’t microsoft try to do this in Windows 8 with little icons in the corners? The problem is that little icons provide only marginally more information, if at all, than the existence of the corner of the screen. It’s a very hard problem and Apple works on it. They have abandoned previous standards on discoverability because of the inherent limitations of a touch interface on a small screen. Sacrificing discoverability for usability is the right choice. I think one issue is that some UI conventions have not been settled on, so I often have to look up how to do something on iOS. The most recent example of this was “shake to undo.” After looking this up, not only did I learn how to undo typing, I also learned why I would occasionally get these inexplicable warning windows asking if I wanted to undo!
      - Grustaf 7y ago
        Yes and few are better at this than Apple
Aqua_Geek 7y ago
I still don't understand the already-existent gestures on iPad.
valine 7y ago
Honestly that's exactly what the iPad needs. The focus on discoverability has crippled the iPad since the beginning, so its about time Apple started making the iPad faster to use. Software designed to maximize productivity always has a learning curve.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  But this is functionality that normal computers can do in immediately obvious ways. Edit: “immediately obvious” was a bit strong. They can do it in ways that are significantly easier to discover.
  - Jtsummers 7y ago
    Based on my colleagues, nothing about computer interfaces is immediately obvious.
  - minhazm 7y ago
    For example? Keep in mind the iPad has keyboard support can already support most of the common keyboard shortcuts.
  - emsy 7y ago
    Watch my parents use a computer and I'm confident you'll change your mind :)
    - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      Well, I suppose “obvious” is relative. I think an interface that presents you with multiple windows by default, and then lets you drag them, is a lot more discoverable than what the iPad is doing.
      - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
        I agree. This is a challenge with the iOS (and Android) UIs, I think. Mice and trackpads have a more obvious and somewhat richer set of "verbs" for interaction, e.g., right-click versus "try tapping with two fingers," and menu bars make all their commands very easily discoverable in ways that toolbar-only UIs have a lot of trouble duplicating. I'm not sure, though, what a better approach is on the iPad, assuming that we don't just give a menu bar. I'm pretty interested in a lot of these changes; as silly as it may sound, being able to display two documents from the same app side by side on the iPad will alone solve one of my huge frustrations with the system as it is now, and the changes to the Files app sound like they'll be really useful in practice. I know there will be a lot of folks, particularly in the HN crowd, who will be upset that iPads can't do [Insert Thing They Need], but iOS, er, iPadOS is reaching a point where there's very little it can't do that I personally need. (Adding my proviso that "the iPad can't do this thing I need to do the way I'm used to doing it" should not be conflated with "the iPad can't do this thing I need.")
zmb_ 7y ago
The one multi-window functionality I need is the ability have the iPad in portrait mode and split the screen horizontally. That way I could have a book or movie on top and notes on the bottom. It seems that iPadOS still cannot do this very basic thing. It's frustrating beyond belief knowing that this device could be so much more useful with that tiny basic functionality that has existed in GUIs for decades. (And why on Earth does iOS allow me to split a portrait mode vertically, creating two thin strips that are seemingly useless for any work?)
- reaperducer 7y ago
  And why on Earth does iOS allow me to split a portrait mode vertically, creating two thin strips that are seemingly useless for any work? Depends on what work you're doing. I do it all the time. It's especially useful when you're writing something in Notes in one pane and referencing e-mail in another. The bottom half of the screen is the keyboard space.
- zapzupnz 7y ago
  > (And why on Earth does iOS allow me to split a portrait mode vertically, creating two thin strips that are seemingly useless for any work?) Because developers can then present the iPhone interface. > It's frustrating beyond belief knowing that this device could be so much more useful with that tiny basic functionality that has existed in GUIs for decades Other systems have differently-designed interfaces designed for different kinds of interaction. If the iPad interface allowed tiling apps top-and-bottom, the iPhone interface wouldn't be usable because the aspect ratio would be wrong and the iPad interface wouldn't be usable because navigation chrome would take up just about all the screen. I could only see this working if Apple had developers using their iPhone landscape interface on that view, but so many iPhone apps don't have a landscape interface so barely any iPad apps would inherit this.
- stormbeta 7y ago
  Not to mention the inability to split the keyboard - on iPad sized devices, trying to thumb type without a split keyboard is a huge pain in the ass.
laacz 7y ago
When talking about hidden UX, just remember about pull gestures on iPhone. I suppose few more in iPad just adds a little to the pile. * Pull up a little to go home. * Pull up more to get task list. * Pull down from top to get notifications, date and clock. * Pull down from right top corner to get quick controls. * Pull down from middle of the screen to get siri suggestions. * Pull right to see widgets.

the multi-tasking/multi-window looks incredibly complicated, full of hidden gestures/commands that aren't really discoverable

by sylens 7y ago

the multi-tasking/multi-window looks incredibly complicated, full of hidden gestures/commands that aren't really discoverable

jordache 7y ago

yeah but once you learn it, you'll retain the knowledge

stcredzero 7y ago
yeah but once you learn it, you'll retain the knowledge Pretty much the attitude of people learning Windows or MacOS in the late 90's. ("literacy") It's gone from having to win an audience in the early iOS days, to firmly having the audience in the company's grasp.
- jordache 7y ago
  what's the solution? not implement multi-finger gestures due to complexity and just omit the feature altogether? I'd rather have those capabilities? My drawing apps on iOS all have tons of multi-touch gestures. I appreciate they are there.
  - stcredzero 7y ago
    what's the solution? Who says the situation needs solving? I'm just providing perspective. I'd rather have those capabilities? My drawing apps on iOS all have tons of multi-touch gestures. I appreciate they are there. That's the same attitude people had about Ctrl and Alt key shortcuts and power user features and function keys.
    - jordache 7y ago
      >Who says the situation needs solving? Of course it needs to be solved. You have finite screen real estate. Lack of physical buttons. Multi-touch gestures is a natural space for user input.
  - ben_w 7y ago
    Making things discoverable and easy to learn is an art in its own right, completely separate to the art of programming.
    - b1daly 7y ago
      Well yeah, but don’t you think this is exceptionally hard with a touch screen? Didn’t microsoft try to do this in Windows 8 with little icons in the corners? The problem is that little icons provide only marginally more information, if at all, than the existence of the corner of the screen. It’s a very hard problem and Apple works on it. They have abandoned previous standards on discoverability because of the inherent limitations of a touch interface on a small screen. Sacrificing discoverability for usability is the right choice. I think one issue is that some UI conventions have not been settled on, so I often have to look up how to do something on iOS. The most recent example of this was “shake to undo.” After looking this up, not only did I learn how to undo typing, I also learned why I would occasionally get these inexplicable warning windows asking if I wanted to undo!
    - Grustaf 7y ago
      Yes and few are better at this than Apple

Aqua_Geek 7y ago

I still don't understand the already-existent gestures on iPad.

valine 7y ago

Honestly that's exactly what the iPad needs. The focus on discoverability has crippled the iPad since the beginning, so its about time Apple started making the iPad faster to use. Software designed to maximize productivity always has a learning curve.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago
But this is functionality that normal computers can do in immediately obvious ways. Edit: “immediately obvious” was a bit strong. They can do it in ways that are significantly easier to discover.
- Jtsummers 7y ago
  Based on my colleagues, nothing about computer interfaces is immediately obvious.
- minhazm 7y ago
  For example? Keep in mind the iPad has keyboard support can already support most of the common keyboard shortcuts.
- emsy 7y ago
  Watch my parents use a computer and I'm confident you'll change your mind :)
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    Well, I suppose “obvious” is relative. I think an interface that presents you with multiple windows by default, and then lets you drag them, is a lot more discoverable than what the iPad is doing.
    - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
      I agree. This is a challenge with the iOS (and Android) UIs, I think. Mice and trackpads have a more obvious and somewhat richer set of "verbs" for interaction, e.g., right-click versus "try tapping with two fingers," and menu bars make all their commands very easily discoverable in ways that toolbar-only UIs have a lot of trouble duplicating. I'm not sure, though, what a better approach is on the iPad, assuming that we don't just give a menu bar. I'm pretty interested in a lot of these changes; as silly as it may sound, being able to display two documents from the same app side by side on the iPad will alone solve one of my huge frustrations with the system as it is now, and the changes to the Files app sound like they'll be really useful in practice. I know there will be a lot of folks, particularly in the HN crowd, who will be upset that iPads can't do [Insert Thing They Need], but iOS, er, iPadOS is reaching a point where there's very little it can't do that I personally need. (Adding my proviso that "the iPad can't do this thing I need to do the way I'm used to doing it" should not be conflated with "the iPad can't do this thing I need.")

zmb_ 7y ago

The one multi-window functionality I need is the ability have the iPad in portrait mode and split the screen horizontally. That way I could have a book or movie on top and notes on the bottom. It seems that iPadOS still cannot do this very basic thing. It's frustrating beyond belief knowing that this device could be so much more useful with that tiny basic functionality that has existed in GUIs for decades. (And why on Earth does iOS allow me to split a portrait mode vertically, creating two thin strips that are seemingly useless for any work?)

reaperducer 7y ago
And why on Earth does iOS allow me to split a portrait mode vertically, creating two thin strips that are seemingly useless for any work? Depends on what work you're doing. I do it all the time. It's especially useful when you're writing something in Notes in one pane and referencing e-mail in another. The bottom half of the screen is the keyboard space.
zapzupnz 7y ago
> (And why on Earth does iOS allow me to split a portrait mode vertically, creating two thin strips that are seemingly useless for any work?) Because developers can then present the iPhone interface. > It's frustrating beyond belief knowing that this device could be so much more useful with that tiny basic functionality that has existed in GUIs for decades Other systems have differently-designed interfaces designed for different kinds of interaction. If the iPad interface allowed tiling apps top-and-bottom, the iPhone interface wouldn't be usable because the aspect ratio would be wrong and the iPad interface wouldn't be usable because navigation chrome would take up just about all the screen. I could only see this working if Apple had developers using their iPhone landscape interface on that view, but so many iPhone apps don't have a landscape interface so barely any iPad apps would inherit this.
stormbeta 7y ago
Not to mention the inability to split the keyboard - on iPad sized devices, trying to thumb type without a split keyboard is a huge pain in the ass.

laacz 7y ago

When talking about hidden UX, just remember about pull gestures on iPhone. I suppose few more in iPad just adds a little to the pile. * Pull up a little to go home. * Pull up more to get task list. * Pull down from top to get notifications, date and clock. * Pull down from right top corner to get quick controls. * Pull down from middle of the screen to get siri suggestions. * Pull right to see widgets.