13 ms·

Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Firefox

547 points by mhr_online 7y ago

Nursie 7y ago
I have one system I still use chrome on - my late-2013 Macbook Pro. The reason I use chrome as my main browser there is because Firefox and Slack do not seem to be friends on MacOS. I use slack in the browser rather than the native app and FF seems to get copy and paste functionality all messed up. I would use Safari, but some quirk of the office webmail (Outlook of some sort) means that email from Safari gets flagged and blocked as potential spam by an outbound mail server :/ But everywhere else, Android phone included, it's Firefox because they don't pull these kinds of shenanigans.
- zkomp 7y ago
  See this comment a lot but absolutely disagree. Firefox works and is only getting better on MacOS. (And if being friends with MacOS is the point, then why not use Safari, does not get more friendly than that)
  - Nursie 7y ago
    I love FF, really do, but as I said I have two specific issues keeping me on chrome right now. I hope they can be sorted out.
- gshdg 7y ago
  I’ve got the same generation MBP. Why not just use the slack desktop app? I’ve never had a problem running that side by side with Firefox. And performance for both is nearly as good as on my current model laptop at work.
  - Nursie 7y ago
    IIRC when I first tried that about a year and a half ago, it didn't work properly :/
    - gshdg 7y ago
      Huh, personally I’ve never had a problem with slack for desktop.
the_duke 7y ago
Great to see mainstream media picking this up and giving Firefox some exposure. With Microsoft switching to Chromium, Firefox is now the only viable (cross platform) alternative. FF gaining back a solid amount of market share is critical for the browser ecosystem in the future. (Personally I switched back to FF after the first Quantum release, which brought performance back on par with Chrome. On mobile, the ad blocker is even more essential to get somewhat acceptable load times...)
- dijit 7y ago
  I think safari is more cross platform than IE, since you can run safari on macOS and Windows. But IE only runs on Windows. EDIT: I have been informed that it's not cross-platform since 2012. My bad.
  - riamu 7y ago
    Safari is a terrible, Apple-like version of WebKit. The last viable windows version of Safari was abandoned 8 years ago, so please nobody use this browser.
    - jnwkw 7y ago
      Safari is the fastest browser I've ever used on mobile. It also supports ad blocking. Calling it "terrible" simply does not resonate with me. Chrome is slower and Firefox on mobile is a joke.
      - kekebo 7y ago
        If you're on iOS it would make sense since Apple is only allowing it's own webkit as browser engine, forcing chromium and firefox to be disfigured versions of what they are on other systems. When I was working more frontend (~1,5 years ago) no browser would cause more work and trouble for us than Safari on iOS (we didn't have to support IE9 and lower).
        7y ago
easymodex 7y ago
Firefox has always been my weapon of choice, I used both chrome and firefox with a lot of tabs loaded so I can be logged into different accounts on the same Saas. I'm actually switching chrome out with Brave browser, so far it has been a pleasant experience.
- cosarara 7y ago
  Look into firefox containers.
suspectdoubloon 7y ago
A dupe from the other day? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20056864 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20056864
781 7y ago
Google is famous for measuring everything. If you think they did this without extensive testing/polling/... you are naive.
- tjoff 7y ago
  You think they went all in on google+ without extensive research?
jpangs88 7y ago
Does anyone know the status of the Chrome native ad blocker, the one that would block just the "obtrusive" ads? I remember hearing about it a while back and if it comes out with this change I think it would solve the use case of most people. Not that I don't want people to switch to Firefox/other browsers, I just feel like if Google implements their own solution I think most people won't mind...
carlsborg 7y ago
A chunk of users (Linux desktops mainly) are locked into chrome because of h.264 / mp4 video.
- greatquux 7y ago
  Pretty sure Firefox can use this too even though it's a proprietary binary blob.
- shakna 7y ago
  On Linux, I have "OpenH264 Video Codec by Cisco" and "Widevine Content Decryption Module by Google" as Firefox addons. This seems to be the norm [0], as Firefox will download them on-demand so long as the user agrees. [0] https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/enable-drm https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/enable-drm
  - carlsborg 7y ago
    Says here the Cisco codec allows you to use H.264 in WebRTC with gstreamer and Firefox. It does not enable generic H.264 playback, only WebRTC. https://github.com/cisco/openh264/issues/2835 https://github.com/cisco/openh264/issues/2835 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OpenH264 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OpenH264
    - shakna 7y ago
      Because generic support for H264 in Firefox came in Firefox 43, four years ago. If Firefox finds ffmpeg, it uses it.
      - carlsborg 7y ago
        True but it’s a poor experience getting it to work. It breaks every few upgrades, poorly documented and mainly in the the bugtracker, and is unofficial hack because it’s not a licensed decoder.
- ubercow13 7y ago
  Could you elaborate? Firefox doesn't seem to have any problems with h264 to me
GnwbZHiU 7y ago
"For now, Wright thinks people should use Brave instead: “Brave is built upon Chromium so all existing Chrome plugins and even themes work on it. This is perhaps why it's seen an increase in user numbers.”"
tjpnz 7y ago
I switched 6 months ago to Firefox on all my mobile devices. Put simply I need the ability to block ads. A lot has been written on privacy but the immediate issue I was facing was around malware - a lot of it being delivered via Google's own ad networks. There were certain sites (mostly tech related) that I simply couldn't visit anymore due to frequent browser hijacking. Later versions of Chrome for Android shipped with a setting that would prevent some of it but it was disabled by default and hidden well away from the user. It started to feel like Google was not only well aware of the problem but was choosing to be complicit in all of it. I reported the ads but they clearly didn't want to know about it. I would urge to anyone that cares about their own security to make the move to Firefox, and to urge others to do the same (be it family, friends or colleagues).
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
bambax 7y ago
The state of the debate is unsatisfactory. Google employees such as Justin Schuh are aggressively defending the move on tech/security principles and denying commercial motivations, while uBlock Origin dev (Raymond Hill) says the change will cripple or kill uBO on Chrome and evil motives are its raison d'être. It's good that mainstream media articles raise the awareness of the issue, but a good technical discussion by impartial analysts would also help. Is it possible to fix the security issues of the existing webRequest API without deprecating it? Or by replacing it with something safer but just as powerful? There should be a simple answer to those questions. (I'm tempted to side against Google because they keep invoking "performance issues", which is a ridiculous argument: nothing helps Chrome's performance more than efficient ad-blocking. But still, I'd like to know more.)
- roblabla 7y ago
  > Is it possible to fix the security issues of the existing webRequest API without deprecating it? The WebRequest API is not being deprecated though, only the ability to block through it is. And I don't think blocking a request has very negative security implications. It's hard to not attribute malice to this move when the status quo was absolutely fine, and google is raising a strawman to try and justify their changes.
  - noir_lord 7y ago
    They have to raise a strawman though, their cash cow is advertising and often advertising to people who don't want advertising, ublock origin and others allows those people (including me) to block the advertising. To put it in a simple form, I will not use a browser that can't run ublock origin, full stop, I don't care what other features it has, ublock origin is the single killer feature for me.
    - exergy 7y ago
      I think Google may be about to find that a non trivial number of people share that last sentiment.
chris_wot 7y ago
Man, the backlash against Google is extreme. It's much faster than the backlash against Microsoft back in the day - at least, that's my feeling. Note I'm not saying it's not well deserved!
- fouc 7y ago
  The backlash has been happening for awhile now. Lots of concerns about google in the last couple years.
- kstenerud 7y ago
  Actually, it's far more muted than the backlash against Microsoft was, in public as well as by government officials. The memes were far more mainstream in nature [1]. Hell, even my non tech-savvy parents were aware of it and worried by it. In fact, Chrome's success owes a lot to the public backlash and antitrust lawsuits against Microsoft. [1] http://www.tjscafe.com/tjs/gallery/billborg.htm http://www.tjscafe.com/tjs/gallery/billborg.htm
- worble 7y ago
  >It's much faster than the backlash against Microsoft back in the day Fool me once, shame on you...
- simias 7y ago
  I'm worried that this is just "the outrage of the week" and then nothing will change. People are very quick to voice their discontent online these days but they're also very quick to forgive or merely forget. I might be a pessimist but I doubt that this is going to significantly change anything. Now when this change lands if it really turns out that adblocking doesn't work well on Chrome, then things could move.
drevil-v2 7y ago
Google is rapidly becoming persona non-grata in my view. There is something really, for the lack of a better word, scummy about it in the last year or two. We partnered with them on their DialogueFlow platform (voice recognition) for Google Home integration and voice command intent handling and they totally screwed us over. I won't/can't go into the specifics but it was bizarre; we had no recourse except taking a near trillion dollar company to court. We decided it was not worth it and wrote off the cost and took a hit but never again.
- wayoutthere 7y ago
  Totally agreed; even my enterprise clients are wary of signing up with Google. Turns out Google’s support sucks even if you pay them for it; so a lot of them are ditching G-Suite to go back into the Microsoft Office 365 world. They’re an advertising company through-and-through.
- netman21 7y ago
  Last year or two? Read about Google censorship in China. This article is from 2006: http://www.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=3749767 http://www.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=3749767
  - lern_too_spel 7y ago
    Google stopped censoring in China years ago, so in that respect, Google has gotten better. Meanwhile, Apple has handed iCloud keys to the Chinese government to access any Chinese user's data at will.
delhanty 7y ago
Dupe https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20056864 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20056864 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20052623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20052623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20038872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20038872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20050173 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20050173 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20037562 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20037562
- yonkshi 7y ago
  Not only dupe, Forbes also has the most click baity title amongst them all. Forbes is like buzzfeed now
  - teilo 7y ago
    Blame the Forbes Tech Council.
chank 7y ago
Tried out Firefox again a few days ago. Still prefer chrome. If add blocking becomes an issue with chrome, I'll definitely make the switch because of that and just hate it or go back to safari and hate it just as much
- bad_user 7y ago
  What don’t you like about Firefox? Speaking as a FF user I have a hard time using Chrome too. In other words you get used to what you use and FF is a decent option.
  - chapium 7y ago
    I have stuttery performance on mac with firefox.
  - sanxchit 7y ago
    Not the original commenter, but Firefox has noticeably poorer performance on my MacBook pro 2018, especially on react-heavy sites like the AWS Console or Twitch.tv
    - chank 7y ago
      Mostly this, performance is atrocious on a lot of sites I use. I also dislike its history management, download management, auto-complete, search in address bar functionality, pocket integration, and much more. I'm sure if I were forced to spend more time with it I could possibly find configurations to customize all those things in a way I like, but even using it for a few days the easily findable settings weren't flexible enough.
      - mentalpiracy 7y ago
        I realize your comment says you’ve already switched back, but should you ever try Firefox again most of these can be tweaked directly from about:config
ashelmire 7y ago
The title of the article (which is different from the title here, which is merely clickbaity) is misleading, though there is the potential that ad blocking becomes much worse due to the deprecation of the webRequest api mentioned in the article. If that does have a significant impact on ad blocking, I would expect many users (both devs and casual users) to switch to Firefox.
davidgerard 7y ago
by the way - if you want adblocking on Android, Firefox accepts extensions, including uBlockOrigin.
- billysielu 7y ago
  IMO Brave is the best Android browser. Blocks ads by default and performs much better than Firefox.
CoffeeDregs 7y ago
I've sort of switched: mobile is FF; desktop is Chrome. The thing that still gets me with both is that memory usage is -insane- and I cannot figure out why it is so high. After a few days of usage I'll close all but one tab and will have a 4+GB process. Thank you to FF for maintaining AdBlocking but memory usage needs love, too.
Numberwang 7y ago
Too bulky, too slow. No one real is going to switch, only nerds with blinds on their eyes.
ignoramous 7y ago
The article recommends Brave and Pi-Hole, as well. For folks looking for simplest anti ads and tracking browser (for friends and family, for instance) should consider Firefox Focus [0] instead of Brave. It is light and works like a breeze on lowest of configurations. And folks using Android not bothered enough to setup Pi-Hole should consider using Intra with nextdns or adguard-dns [1]. I've installed Intra for friends and family on their phones, on their AndroidTVs... It takes a quick one minute setup and another minute to show them how to use it. Esp, nextdns' analytics dashboard is a real eye-opener for them. When they actually see the results, they start taking notice and are bothered enough to figure out how to blacklist additional domains. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15049171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15049171 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20051049 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20051049
- tfigment 7y ago
  Agree completely for Android. I've used Focus since it came out and set as primary browser because it is so light. It works great from Materialistic (HN Reader) and Reddit App or for one time website browsing. It also allows opening in Firefox or chrome if site is too broken though that is usually ad or captcha related. I setup DNS66 easily and that helped with some ad heavy apps as well. Only issue is it cannot be used with actual VPNs. I open Firefox manually if I want a heavier browser with tabs and ublock or umatrix but focus is usually first.
kerng 7y ago
The big question: Will Microsoft fork or take the change also?
- dictum 7y ago
  Something tells me they'll take the change. https://twitter.com/ericlaw/status/1134573349043081217 https://twitter.com/ericlaw/status/1134573349043081217 https://twitter.com/ericlaw/status/1134909845042335744 https://twitter.com/ericlaw/status/1134909845042335744
The_rationalist 7y ago
All of this "debate" is pretty absurd. Yes the webrequest v3 proposal seems problematic for scripts /malware / crypto / ad / etc blockers. This is consensual. Chromium is open source and has those two main actors: opera and Microsoft. Almost everybody seems to consider chromium in the debate as a proprietary software owned by Google. And thus argue to switch to Firefox. Let's be clear, when you look at the technical, chromium is a far superior browser. Chromium has far more active devs, far more features (look at caniuse.com) and has almost systematically better performance. And it has many others kinds of advantages. All of the stated advantages are sufficent to consider chromium as the best browser. So instead of arguing that opera or Microsoft or simply open source community will simply stay in sync with chromium master but keep the patchs for keeping the current webrequest api. You want people to choose a poorer, less featureful browser which has real consequences on what web devs can offer as user experiences. This is forgive me, dumb. What everybody should ask for is to mozilla to get rational and to migrate Firefox to chromium while backportikng the best parts of gecko to chromium 1) and to ensure the respect of privacy in the chromium source code 2) This would lead us to a web that evolve far more quickly, to the fastest browser and to an implementation which satisfy every interests (the ones of Googles and the one of Microsoft/mozilla) If Google and mozilla disagreed on something, mozilla should maintain a set of patchs for applying their custom changes (a micro fork) That's simple but there's still a long way for the medias and the people to understand that. I would have hoped that hackernews community, wanting to be like the pre-eternal September would debate with intellectual riguour in the common goal of seeking true, sound progress.
- klez 7y ago
  I find parts of your post quite offensive, to be honest, but let's have a debate anyway. The way I see it is that my (and other's) interests are not aligned with yours. You want a web that evolves quickly, I want a web that is not a constantly moving target. You want one web engine implementation to rule them all, I want an open web where standards are respected, not constantly changed by a single conflicted (as in conflict of interests) actor, where multiple implementations can thrive and where users can still expect every website to work independently of the user agent they use. Is this enough for intellectual rigour?
- 7y ago
agentofuser 7y ago
I really want to use Firefox because of Quantum and other Rust goodness, but until they catch up on usability I'm happy to stay with Brave. Tab-to-search is sorely missing in Firefox, and the tab creation and switching experience on Android is awful.
- 713233eb 7y ago
  Tab management is what keeping me from switching to FF on Android. The option to use extensions and to customize the browser to the desktop level is amazing though. I hope they will look into tabs' UX later when more people are going to use it.
timbit42 7y ago
It needs to be dupe'd every day until Chrome is fixed or goes under 50% market share.
- izacus 7y ago
  Can we not turn HN into even more of a political soapbox than it already is? It's fm fine that you have a cause to fight for but this is seriously getting tiring.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  Until what is fixed? Every version of Chrome that exists today supports uBlock Origin.
fulafel 7y ago
Chrome already banned adblocking on mobile, since many years. Interesting (but good!) that this relatively minor api change now gets even mainstream media to barricades.
Maro 7y ago
After the story I installed Firefox. I got it configured, and was happy to see that it's as good as Chrome. For now I'll keep using Chrome, but the moment the adblockers stop working, I'll be on Firefox.
ajnin 7y ago
As the antitrust investigation of Google progresses, they must find a fine line : get as much control as possible of the web while leaving enough margin for competition to avoid an antitrust ruling. That move to limit adblockers might be strategically required from Google at this point, and the fact that they might lose market share an expected result. They've already reached 70% market share, limiting adblockers will allow them to extract more value from their current users and also avoid becoming too obviously hegemonic.
keymone 7y ago
just switched two days ago. it's been nice ten years, see you google. my main hurdle was absence of decent support for multiple isolated profiles in firefox and it's still not great but multi-account containers are good enough for now.
- nsomaru 7y ago
  What limitations have you found with containers? I use them all the time and they work great especially when you set domains to open in a container by default. Did chrome have better support for that?
  - keymone 7y ago
    cmd+t opens new tabs in default profile, i'd like to either be able to assign which profile is default for each window (have a "work" window with some tabs, "personal" window with other tabs, etc) or for container to be inherited from current tab. i've also tried native firefox profiles but they are somehow too isolated. chrome has this behavior where clicking a url outside the browser would open in new tab in most recently used chrome profile window. in firefox it's always the first(?) profile window that you opened.
blisterpeanuts 7y ago
Maybe advertisers need to go back to the drawing board and devise a better way to deliver their message. Ad blockers exist because ads are annoying and even crippling. Google's Adsense (or whatever you call those text ads that appear next to search results) was a reasonable compromise, unobtrusive and often useful, whereas full window timed ads that force you to click the "x", and similar excessively animated distractions and pop-ups, are what motivate people to install add blockers.
Funes- 7y ago
>Another option is using something like Pi-Hole, says Wright. “This works on the DNS level and has blacklists of adverts as well as malicious URLs.” You can also run a ridiculously simple script from time to time (or create a cron job that does it for you, for example) to update your hosts file periodically, using the same blacklists[0]. No extra hardware needed. [0]: https://github.com/StevenBlack/hosts https://github.com/StevenBlack/hosts.
azangru 7y ago
Are there web developers in this thread? The only praise for a browser that I am hearing in this and similar threads is about how a browser is superior for content consumption (browser X is faster, etc.). It’s never about how one browser offers better developer experience than others. And I have not yet found a browser that is nicer to develop in than Chrom(e/ium).
- SimeVidas 7y ago
  Probably, but both Firefox and Safari are continuously making improvements to their devtools. Specifically, Firefox has pretty good tools for debugging layout (incl. CSS Grid) and accessibility (an entire panel in devtools that shows the accessibility tree).
- fernandotakai 7y ago
  i only use firefox for development -- i actually prefer its dev tools to chrome's. also, since i'm the only one on my team that does it, i often get CSS issues that only appear on firefox because the frontend people are using chrome specific hacks.
- Semaphor 7y ago
  Chrome's dev tools are quite a bit faster, but FF's dev tools give a better overview. IMO. In general, I'd say it's mostly personal preference and inertia.
Justsignedup 7y ago
Glad to see people caring. 99% of people don't even know that adblockers exist. Those same people are generally scared of computers. Trust me, this isn't gonna matter. I saw these same arguments during the IE/Firefox war. Didn't matter that much.
- majewsky 7y ago
  > 99% of people don't even know that adblockers exist. How can that be when mainstream publishers complain about 20% and more of users using adblockers?
oedmarap 7y ago
> Another option is using something like Pi-Hole, says Wright. “This works on the DNS level and has blacklists of adverts as well as malicious URLs.” I think nextdns is fantastic for this purpose and has a barrier of entry that makes it usable for non-tech folks as well. I created an account recently and linked my WireGuard server's IP (when connected) to a saved nextdns configuration. Ads/trackers are now blocked on all my devices that use the WG egress when the provided DNS server is set in each peer's conf. This is obvious given the scale of their blocklists, but let me just say the browsing experience and speed boost is utterly phenomenal. Does a better job at blocking than both my old Pi-Hole server and my localhost AdGuard Home daemon. [0] https://nextdns.io https://nextdns.io
ebilodeau 7y ago
The original article has an update (5/30) from a google spokesperson: “Chrome supports the use and development of ad blockers. We’re actively working with the developer community to get feedback and iterate on the design of a privacy-preserving content filtering system that limits the amount of sensitive browser data shared with third parties.” https://9to5google.com/2019/05/29/chrome-ad-blocking-enterprise-manifest-v3/ https://9to5google.com/2019/05/29/chrome-ad-blocking-enterpr...
pelasaco 7y ago
wow, FUD at forbes. I still prefer Chromium than Firefox.
sldjfkdsljffkjd 7y ago
One thing I haven't seen mentioned: Chrome OS. I have two Chrome OS devices that are useless without adblock. They can't handle the real internet. And who would want to buy a Chrome OS device that could? My Chromebox is my most used computer in my house (it powers the living room TV) so this'll be a real inconvenience for my family.
- civility 7y ago
  Newer versions of Chrome OS are able to run Linux in a container. You can install Firefox with the "firefox-esr" package in that Linux. Unfortunately, audio doesn't work yet (at least not on my PixelBook), so it's not really a complete solution, but for (quiet) browsing it does work with uBlock Origin. Apparently Linux audio under Chrome OS is coming soon.
moocowtruck 7y ago
i think its time to replace pichai
Syzygies 7y ago
Being shown ads is a requirement for many web sites. Responding to them is not. The focus of ad blockers is all wrong; the priority should be to appear to see ads without actually seeing them, and to protect privacy. A browser of the future will fail to display ads, while giving no hint of this to the ad source; ads need to be downloaded as usual. A browser of the future will cloak its identity by sandboxing each website, manipulating browser signature and apparent IP address (some variation of VPN services) to destroy tracking. The issue isn't saving resources, it's winning the privacy wars.
InafuSabi 7y ago
I've downloaded firefox ESR and am migrating my important addons to firefox equivalents. Up to now all of them, apart from _authy_ (a crucial one) have native versions. For me extentions like _uBlock Origin BitWarden_ & _LastPass_ are vital Now I have to look if the latest incarnations are not as CPU hungry as the ones that forced me to stop in 2013. If it is good on this ageing #DAW, I have my response to google's FU to us, their users Update: Firefox still uses much more CPU on my machine, that will create a problem when google pushes their crap through our throats
agumonkey 7y ago
talk about branch sawing..
pgt 7y ago
A valuable lesson I learned from @dhh was: never put your customer back in a buying position[^1]. For example, if you discontinue your legacy[^2] 1.0 product, and force them to switch to your shiny/better/faster 2.0 product, when 1.0 was working just fine for them, you are forcing them back into a buying position. And this time, they might choose your competitor. Chrome was way ahead, but by overreaching against ad-blockers, they forced their users back in a buying position, and this time Firefox had gotten way better. Unless Google messed with the status quo, their users would never consider switching. The only thing pushing me toward Fastmail is that Google keeps messing with Gmail/Inbox. This death-cycle seems to be unavoidable for MBA-types who inherit working products, and I bet you could build a business around this idea, or at least design a consistent enterprise takeover strategy. [^1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJkiCpPeYuI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJkiCpPeYuI [^2]: Legacy = any code you can't (safely) change.
cibao 7y ago
Hello everyone, I switched from chrome to Firefox on Friday but on Firefox I see ads by Google click bait Are my settings wrong, or has Google overtaken my PC ️
cibao 7y ago
I switched back to Firefox from Chrome on Friday but I'm still seeing ads by Google on Firefox browser are my settings wrong or has Google overtaken my pc ️
mikewills23 7y ago
be careful of whom you contact to help you, he is a a special hack which have is own ways of hacking that nobody has ever imagine in this hacking world with his spare idea he can hack anything. he is totally secured and your security comes first. Hacking a website is a job for pro like (neogonzalezhacks@gmail.com) or text him +1 773 688 9662 - ANY TYPE LOANS -Database hack. Remove criminal records. facebook hack. -gmail hack -whatsapp hack -tracking calls -online hacking lectures -Cloning of phones -increasing credit cards scores -Twitter hack EMAIL : NEOGONZALEZHACKS@GMAIL.COM

547 points by mhr_online 7y ago

I have one system I still use chrome on - my late-2013 Macbook Pro. The reason I use chrome as my main browser there is because Firefox and Slack do not seem to be friends on MacOS. I use slack in the browser rather than the native app and FF seems to get copy and paste functionality all messed up. I would use Safari, but some quirk of the office webmail (Outlook of some sort) means that email from Safari gets flagged and blocked as potential spam by an outbound mail server :/ But everywhere else, Android phone included, it's Firefox because they don't pull these kinds of shenanigans.

zkomp 7y ago
See this comment a lot but absolutely disagree. Firefox works and is only getting better on MacOS. (And if being friends with MacOS is the point, then why not use Safari, does not get more friendly than that)
- Nursie 7y ago
  I love FF, really do, but as I said I have two specific issues keeping me on chrome right now. I hope they can be sorted out.
gshdg 7y ago
I’ve got the same generation MBP. Why not just use the slack desktop app? I’ve never had a problem running that side by side with Firefox. And performance for both is nearly as good as on my current model laptop at work.
- Nursie 7y ago
  IIRC when I first tried that about a year and a half ago, it didn't work properly :/
  - gshdg 7y ago
    Huh, personally I’ve never had a problem with slack for desktop.

the_duke 7y ago

Great to see mainstream media picking this up and giving Firefox some exposure. With Microsoft switching to Chromium, Firefox is now the only viable (cross platform) alternative. FF gaining back a solid amount of market share is critical for the browser ecosystem in the future. (Personally I switched back to FF after the first Quantum release, which brought performance back on par with Chrome. On mobile, the ad blocker is even more essential to get somewhat acceptable load times...)

dijit 7y ago
I think safari is more cross platform than IE, since you can run safari on macOS and Windows. But IE only runs on Windows. EDIT: I have been informed that it's not cross-platform since 2012. My bad.
- riamu 7y ago
  Safari is a terrible, Apple-like version of WebKit. The last viable windows version of Safari was abandoned 8 years ago, so please nobody use this browser.
  - jnwkw 7y ago
    Safari is the fastest browser I've ever used on mobile. It also supports ad blocking. Calling it "terrible" simply does not resonate with me. Chrome is slower and Firefox on mobile is a joke.
    - kekebo 7y ago
      If you're on iOS it would make sense since Apple is only allowing it's own webkit as browser engine, forcing chromium and firefox to be disfigured versions of what they are on other systems. When I was working more frontend (~1,5 years ago) no browser would cause more work and trouble for us than Safari on iOS (we didn't have to support IE9 and lower).
      - 7y ago

easymodex 7y ago

Firefox has always been my weapon of choice, I used both chrome and firefox with a lot of tabs loaded so I can be logged into different accounts on the same Saas. I'm actually switching chrome out with Brave browser, so far it has been a pleasant experience.

cosarara 7y ago
Look into firefox containers.

suspectdoubloon 7y ago

A dupe from the other day? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20056864 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20056864

781 7y ago

Google is famous for measuring everything. If you think they did this without extensive testing/polling/... you are naive.

tjoff 7y ago
You think they went all in on google+ without extensive research?

jpangs88 7y ago

Does anyone know the status of the Chrome native ad blocker, the one that would block just the "obtrusive" ads? I remember hearing about it a while back and if it comes out with this change I think it would solve the use case of most people. Not that I don't want people to switch to Firefox/other browsers, I just feel like if Google implements their own solution I think most people won't mind...

carlsborg 7y ago

A chunk of users (Linux desktops mainly) are locked into chrome because of h.264 / mp4 video.

greatquux 7y ago
Pretty sure Firefox can use this too even though it's a proprietary binary blob.
shakna 7y ago
On Linux, I have "OpenH264 Video Codec by Cisco" and "Widevine Content Decryption Module by Google" as Firefox addons. This seems to be the norm [0], as Firefox will download them on-demand so long as the user agrees. [0] https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/enable-drm https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/enable-drm
- carlsborg 7y ago
  Says here the Cisco codec allows you to use H.264 in WebRTC with gstreamer and Firefox. It does not enable generic H.264 playback, only WebRTC. https://github.com/cisco/openh264/issues/2835 https://github.com/cisco/openh264/issues/2835 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OpenH264 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OpenH264
  - shakna 7y ago
    Because generic support for H264 in Firefox came in Firefox 43, four years ago. If Firefox finds ffmpeg, it uses it.
    - carlsborg 7y ago
      True but it’s a poor experience getting it to work. It breaks every few upgrades, poorly documented and mainly in the the bugtracker, and is unofficial hack because it’s not a licensed decoder.
ubercow13 7y ago
Could you elaborate? Firefox doesn't seem to have any problems with h264 to me

GnwbZHiU 7y ago

"For now, Wright thinks people should use Brave instead: “Brave is built upon Chromium so all existing Chrome plugins and even themes work on it. This is perhaps why it's seen an increase in user numbers.”"

tjpnz 7y ago

I switched 6 months ago to Firefox on all my mobile devices. Put simply I need the ability to block ads. A lot has been written on privacy but the immediate issue I was facing was around malware - a lot of it being delivered via Google's own ad networks. There were certain sites (mostly tech related) that I simply couldn't visit anymore due to frequent browser hijacking. Later versions of Chrome for Android shipped with a setting that would prevent some of it but it was disabled by default and hidden well away from the user. It started to feel like Google was not only well aware of the problem but was choosing to be complicit in all of it. I reported the ads but they clearly didn't want to know about it. I would urge to anyone that cares about their own security to make the move to Firefox, and to urge others to do the same (be it family, friends or colleagues).

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

bambax 7y ago

The state of the debate is unsatisfactory. Google employees such as Justin Schuh are aggressively defending the move on tech/security principles and denying commercial motivations, while uBlock Origin dev (Raymond Hill) says the change will cripple or kill uBO on Chrome and evil motives are its raison d'être. It's good that mainstream media articles raise the awareness of the issue, but a good technical discussion by impartial analysts would also help. Is it possible to fix the security issues of the existing webRequest API without deprecating it? Or by replacing it with something safer but just as powerful? There should be a simple answer to those questions. (I'm tempted to side against Google because they keep invoking "performance issues", which is a ridiculous argument: nothing helps Chrome's performance more than efficient ad-blocking. But still, I'd like to know more.)

roblabla 7y ago
> Is it possible to fix the security issues of the existing webRequest API without deprecating it? The WebRequest API is not being deprecated though, only the ability to block through it is. And I don't think blocking a request has very negative security implications. It's hard to not attribute malice to this move when the status quo was absolutely fine, and google is raising a strawman to try and justify their changes.
- noir_lord 7y ago
  They have to raise a strawman though, their cash cow is advertising and often advertising to people who don't want advertising, ublock origin and others allows those people (including me) to block the advertising. To put it in a simple form, I will not use a browser that can't run ublock origin, full stop, I don't care what other features it has, ublock origin is the single killer feature for me.
  - exergy 7y ago
    I think Google may be about to find that a non trivial number of people share that last sentiment.

chris_wot 7y ago

Man, the backlash against Google is extreme. It's much faster than the backlash against Microsoft back in the day - at least, that's my feeling. Note I'm not saying it's not well deserved!

fouc 7y ago
The backlash has been happening for awhile now. Lots of concerns about google in the last couple years.
kstenerud 7y ago
Actually, it's far more muted than the backlash against Microsoft was, in public as well as by government officials. The memes were far more mainstream in nature [1]. Hell, even my non tech-savvy parents were aware of it and worried by it. In fact, Chrome's success owes a lot to the public backlash and antitrust lawsuits against Microsoft. [1] http://www.tjscafe.com/tjs/gallery/billborg.htm http://www.tjscafe.com/tjs/gallery/billborg.htm
worble 7y ago
>It's much faster than the backlash against Microsoft back in the day Fool me once, shame on you...
simias 7y ago
I'm worried that this is just "the outrage of the week" and then nothing will change. People are very quick to voice their discontent online these days but they're also very quick to forgive or merely forget. I might be a pessimist but I doubt that this is going to significantly change anything. Now when this change lands if it really turns out that adblocking doesn't work well on Chrome, then things could move.

drevil-v2 7y ago

Google is rapidly becoming persona non-grata in my view. There is something really, for the lack of a better word, scummy about it in the last year or two. We partnered with them on their DialogueFlow platform (voice recognition) for Google Home integration and voice command intent handling and they totally screwed us over. I won't/can't go into the specifics but it was bizarre; we had no recourse except taking a near trillion dollar company to court. We decided it was not worth it and wrote off the cost and took a hit but never again.

wayoutthere 7y ago
Totally agreed; even my enterprise clients are wary of signing up with Google. Turns out Google’s support sucks even if you pay them for it; so a lot of them are ditching G-Suite to go back into the Microsoft Office 365 world. They’re an advertising company through-and-through.
netman21 7y ago
Last year or two? Read about Google censorship in China. This article is from 2006: http://www.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=3749767 http://www.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=3749767
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  Google stopped censoring in China years ago, so in that respect, Google has gotten better. Meanwhile, Apple has handed iCloud keys to the Chinese government to access any Chinese user's data at will.

delhanty 7y ago

Dupe https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20056864 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20056864 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20052623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20052623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20038872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20038872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20050173 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20050173 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20037562 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20037562

yonkshi 7y ago
Not only dupe, Forbes also has the most click baity title amongst them all. Forbes is like buzzfeed now
- teilo 7y ago
  Blame the Forbes Tech Council.

chank 7y ago

Tried out Firefox again a few days ago. Still prefer chrome. If add blocking becomes an issue with chrome, I'll definitely make the switch because of that and just hate it or go back to safari and hate it just as much

bad_user 7y ago
What don’t you like about Firefox? Speaking as a FF user I have a hard time using Chrome too. In other words you get used to what you use and FF is a decent option.
- chapium 7y ago
  I have stuttery performance on mac with firefox.
- sanxchit 7y ago
  Not the original commenter, but Firefox has noticeably poorer performance on my MacBook pro 2018, especially on react-heavy sites like the AWS Console or Twitch.tv
  - chank 7y ago
    Mostly this, performance is atrocious on a lot of sites I use. I also dislike its history management, download management, auto-complete, search in address bar functionality, pocket integration, and much more. I'm sure if I were forced to spend more time with it I could possibly find configurations to customize all those things in a way I like, but even using it for a few days the easily findable settings weren't flexible enough.
    - mentalpiracy 7y ago
      I realize your comment says you’ve already switched back, but should you ever try Firefox again most of these can be tweaked directly from about:config

ashelmire 7y ago

The title of the article (which is different from the title here, which is merely clickbaity) is misleading, though there is the potential that ad blocking becomes much worse due to the deprecation of the webRequest api mentioned in the article. If that does have a significant impact on ad blocking, I would expect many users (both devs and casual users) to switch to Firefox.

davidgerard 7y ago

by the way - if you want adblocking on Android, Firefox accepts extensions, including uBlockOrigin.

billysielu 7y ago
IMO Brave is the best Android browser. Blocks ads by default and performs much better than Firefox.

CoffeeDregs 7y ago

I've sort of switched: mobile is FF; desktop is Chrome. The thing that still gets me with both is that memory usage is -insane- and I cannot figure out why it is so high. After a few days of usage I'll close all but one tab and will have a 4+GB process. Thank you to FF for maintaining AdBlocking but memory usage needs love, too.

Numberwang 7y ago

Too bulky, too slow. No one real is going to switch, only nerds with blinds on their eyes.

ignoramous 7y ago

The article recommends Brave and Pi-Hole, as well. For folks looking for simplest anti ads and tracking browser (for friends and family, for instance) should consider Firefox Focus [0] instead of Brave. It is light and works like a breeze on lowest of configurations. And folks using Android not bothered enough to setup Pi-Hole should consider using Intra with nextdns or adguard-dns [1]. I've installed Intra for friends and family on their phones, on their AndroidTVs... It takes a quick one minute setup and another minute to show them how to use it. Esp, nextdns' analytics dashboard is a real eye-opener for them. When they actually see the results, they start taking notice and are bothered enough to figure out how to blacklist additional domains. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15049171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15049171 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20051049 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20051049

tfigment 7y ago
Agree completely for Android. I've used Focus since it came out and set as primary browser because it is so light. It works great from Materialistic (HN Reader) and Reddit App or for one time website browsing. It also allows opening in Firefox or chrome if site is too broken though that is usually ad or captcha related. I setup DNS66 easily and that helped with some ad heavy apps as well. Only issue is it cannot be used with actual VPNs. I open Firefox manually if I want a heavier browser with tabs and ublock or umatrix but focus is usually first.

kerng 7y ago

The big question: Will Microsoft fork or take the change also?

dictum 7y ago
Something tells me they'll take the change. https://twitter.com/ericlaw/status/1134573349043081217 https://twitter.com/ericlaw/status/1134573349043081217 https://twitter.com/ericlaw/status/1134909845042335744 https://twitter.com/ericlaw/status/1134909845042335744

The_rationalist 7y ago

All of this "debate" is pretty absurd. Yes the webrequest v3 proposal seems problematic for scripts /malware / crypto / ad / etc blockers. This is consensual. Chromium is open source and has those two main actors: opera and Microsoft. Almost everybody seems to consider chromium in the debate as a proprietary software owned by Google. And thus argue to switch to Firefox. Let's be clear, when you look at the technical, chromium is a far superior browser. Chromium has far more active devs, far more features (look at caniuse.com) and has almost systematically better performance. And it has many others kinds of advantages. All of the stated advantages are sufficent to consider chromium as the best browser. So instead of arguing that opera or Microsoft or simply open source community will simply stay in sync with chromium master but keep the patchs for keeping the current webrequest api. You want people to choose a poorer, less featureful browser which has real consequences on what web devs can offer as user experiences. This is forgive me, dumb. What everybody should ask for is to mozilla to get rational and to migrate Firefox to chromium while backportikng the best parts of gecko to chromium 1) and to ensure the respect of privacy in the chromium source code 2) This would lead us to a web that evolve far more quickly, to the fastest browser and to an implementation which satisfy every interests (the ones of Googles and the one of Microsoft/mozilla) If Google and mozilla disagreed on something, mozilla should maintain a set of patchs for applying their custom changes (a micro fork) That's simple but there's still a long way for the medias and the people to understand that. I would have hoped that hackernews community, wanting to be like the pre-eternal September would debate with intellectual riguour in the common goal of seeking true, sound progress.

klez 7y ago
I find parts of your post quite offensive, to be honest, but let's have a debate anyway. The way I see it is that my (and other's) interests are not aligned with yours. You want a web that evolves quickly, I want a web that is not a constantly moving target. You want one web engine implementation to rule them all, I want an open web where standards are respected, not constantly changed by a single conflicted (as in conflict of interests) actor, where multiple implementations can thrive and where users can still expect every website to work independently of the user agent they use. Is this enough for intellectual rigour?
7y ago

agentofuser 7y ago

I really want to use Firefox because of Quantum and other Rust goodness, but until they catch up on usability I'm happy to stay with Brave. Tab-to-search is sorely missing in Firefox, and the tab creation and switching experience on Android is awful.

713233eb 7y ago
Tab management is what keeping me from switching to FF on Android. The option to use extensions and to customize the browser to the desktop level is amazing though. I hope they will look into tabs' UX later when more people are going to use it.

timbit42 7y ago

It needs to be dupe'd every day until Chrome is fixed or goes under 50% market share.

izacus 7y ago
Can we not turn HN into even more of a political soapbox than it already is? It's fm fine that you have a cause to fight for but this is seriously getting tiring.
SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
Until what is fixed? Every version of Chrome that exists today supports uBlock Origin.

fulafel 7y ago

Chrome already banned adblocking on mobile, since many years. Interesting (but good!) that this relatively minor api change now gets even mainstream media to barricades.

Maro 7y ago

After the story I installed Firefox. I got it configured, and was happy to see that it's as good as Chrome. For now I'll keep using Chrome, but the moment the adblockers stop working, I'll be on Firefox.

ajnin 7y ago

As the antitrust investigation of Google progresses, they must find a fine line : get as much control as possible of the web while leaving enough margin for competition to avoid an antitrust ruling. That move to limit adblockers might be strategically required from Google at this point, and the fact that they might lose market share an expected result. They've already reached 70% market share, limiting adblockers will allow them to extract more value from their current users and also avoid becoming too obviously hegemonic.

keymone 7y ago

just switched two days ago. it's been nice ten years, see you google. my main hurdle was absence of decent support for multiple isolated profiles in firefox and it's still not great but multi-account containers are good enough for now.

nsomaru 7y ago
What limitations have you found with containers? I use them all the time and they work great especially when you set domains to open in a container by default. Did chrome have better support for that?
- keymone 7y ago
  cmd+t opens new tabs in default profile, i'd like to either be able to assign which profile is default for each window (have a "work" window with some tabs, "personal" window with other tabs, etc) or for container to be inherited from current tab. i've also tried native firefox profiles but they are somehow too isolated. chrome has this behavior where clicking a url outside the browser would open in new tab in most recently used chrome profile window. in firefox it's always the first(?) profile window that you opened.

blisterpeanuts 7y ago

Maybe advertisers need to go back to the drawing board and devise a better way to deliver their message. Ad blockers exist because ads are annoying and even crippling. Google's Adsense (or whatever you call those text ads that appear next to search results) was a reasonable compromise, unobtrusive and often useful, whereas full window timed ads that force you to click the "x", and similar excessively animated distractions and pop-ups, are what motivate people to install add blockers.

Funes- 7y ago

>Another option is using something like Pi-Hole, says Wright. “This works on the DNS level and has blacklists of adverts as well as malicious URLs.” You can also run a ridiculously simple script from time to time (or create a cron job that does it for you, for example) to update your hosts file periodically, using the same blacklists[0]. No extra hardware needed. [0]: https://github.com/StevenBlack/hosts https://github.com/StevenBlack/hosts.

azangru 7y ago

Are there web developers in this thread? The only praise for a browser that I am hearing in this and similar threads is about how a browser is superior for content consumption (browser X is faster, etc.). It’s never about how one browser offers better developer experience than others. And I have not yet found a browser that is nicer to develop in than Chrom(e/ium).

SimeVidas 7y ago
Probably, but both Firefox and Safari are continuously making improvements to their devtools. Specifically, Firefox has pretty good tools for debugging layout (incl. CSS Grid) and accessibility (an entire panel in devtools that shows the accessibility tree).
fernandotakai 7y ago
i only use firefox for development -- i actually prefer its dev tools to chrome's. also, since i'm the only one on my team that does it, i often get CSS issues that only appear on firefox because the frontend people are using chrome specific hacks.
Semaphor 7y ago
Chrome's dev tools are quite a bit faster, but FF's dev tools give a better overview. IMO. In general, I'd say it's mostly personal preference and inertia.

Justsignedup 7y ago

Glad to see people caring. 99% of people don't even know that adblockers exist. Those same people are generally scared of computers. Trust me, this isn't gonna matter. I saw these same arguments during the IE/Firefox war. Didn't matter that much.

majewsky 7y ago
> 99% of people don't even know that adblockers exist. How can that be when mainstream publishers complain about 20% and more of users using adblockers?

oedmarap 7y ago

> Another option is using something like Pi-Hole, says Wright. “This works on the DNS level and has blacklists of adverts as well as malicious URLs.” I think nextdns is fantastic for this purpose and has a barrier of entry that makes it usable for non-tech folks as well. I created an account recently and linked my WireGuard server's IP (when connected) to a saved nextdns configuration. Ads/trackers are now blocked on all my devices that use the WG egress when the provided DNS server is set in each peer's conf. This is obvious given the scale of their blocklists, but let me just say the browsing experience and speed boost is utterly phenomenal. Does a better job at blocking than both my old Pi-Hole server and my localhost AdGuard Home daemon. [0] https://nextdns.io https://nextdns.io

ebilodeau 7y ago

The original article has an update (5/30) from a google spokesperson: “Chrome supports the use and development of ad blockers. We’re actively working with the developer community to get feedback and iterate on the design of a privacy-preserving content filtering system that limits the amount of sensitive browser data shared with third parties.” https://9to5google.com/2019/05/29/chrome-ad-blocking-enterprise-manifest-v3/ https://9to5google.com/2019/05/29/chrome-ad-blocking-enterpr...

pelasaco 7y ago

wow, FUD at forbes. I still prefer Chromium than Firefox.

sldjfkdsljffkjd 7y ago

One thing I haven't seen mentioned: Chrome OS. I have two Chrome OS devices that are useless without adblock. They can't handle the real internet. And who would want to buy a Chrome OS device that could? My Chromebox is my most used computer in my house (it powers the living room TV) so this'll be a real inconvenience for my family.

civility 7y ago
Newer versions of Chrome OS are able to run Linux in a container. You can install Firefox with the "firefox-esr" package in that Linux. Unfortunately, audio doesn't work yet (at least not on my PixelBook), so it's not really a complete solution, but for (quiet) browsing it does work with uBlock Origin. Apparently Linux audio under Chrome OS is coming soon.

moocowtruck 7y ago

i think its time to replace pichai

Syzygies 7y ago

Being shown ads is a requirement for many web sites. Responding to them is not. The focus of ad blockers is all wrong; the priority should be to appear to see ads without actually seeing them, and to protect privacy. A browser of the future will fail to display ads, while giving no hint of this to the ad source; ads need to be downloaded as usual. A browser of the future will cloak its identity by sandboxing each website, manipulating browser signature and apparent IP address (some variation of VPN services) to destroy tracking. The issue isn't saving resources, it's winning the privacy wars.

InafuSabi 7y ago

I've downloaded firefox ESR and am migrating my important addons to firefox equivalents. Up to now all of them, apart from _authy_ (a crucial one) have native versions. For me extentions like _uBlock Origin BitWarden_ & _LastPass_ are vital Now I have to look if the latest incarnations are not as CPU hungry as the ones that forced me to stop in 2013. If it is good on this ageing #DAW, I have my response to google's FU to us, their users Update: Firefox still uses much more CPU on my machine, that will create a problem when google pushes their crap through our throats

agumonkey 7y ago

talk about branch sawing..

pgt 7y ago

A valuable lesson I learned from @dhh was: never put your customer back in a buying position[^1]. For example, if you discontinue your legacy[^2] 1.0 product, and force them to switch to your shiny/better/faster 2.0 product, when 1.0 was working just fine for them, you are forcing them back into a buying position. And this time, they might choose your competitor. Chrome was way ahead, but by overreaching against ad-blockers, they forced their users back in a buying position, and this time Firefox had gotten way better. Unless Google messed with the status quo, their users would never consider switching. The only thing pushing me toward Fastmail is that Google keeps messing with Gmail/Inbox. This death-cycle seems to be unavoidable for MBA-types who inherit working products, and I bet you could build a business around this idea, or at least design a consistent enterprise takeover strategy. [^1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJkiCpPeYuI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJkiCpPeYuI [^2]: Legacy = any code you can't (safely) change.

cibao 7y ago

Hello everyone, I switched from chrome to Firefox on Friday but on Firefox I see ads by Google click bait Are my settings wrong, or has Google overtaken my PC ️

cibao 7y ago

I switched back to Firefox from Chrome on Friday but I'm still seeing ads by Google on Firefox browser are my settings wrong or has Google overtaken my pc ️

mikewills23 7y ago

be careful of whom you contact to help you, he is a a special hack which have is own ways of hacking that nobody has ever imagine in this hacking world with his spare idea he can hack anything. he is totally secured and your security comes first. Hacking a website is a job for pro like (neogonzalezhacks@gmail.com) or text him +1 773 688 9662 - ANY TYPE LOANS -Database hack. Remove criminal records. facebook hack. -gmail hack -whatsapp hack -tracking calls -online hacking lectures -Cloning of phones -increasing credit cards scores -Twitter hack EMAIL : NEOGONZALEZHACKS@GMAIL.COM