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Have I just become a curmudgeonly old man yelling at kids to stay off my lawn? I mean I don't feel old and out of touch, but something is off? Is everyone else

• nerdponx 7y ago
  No. It's supply-driven demand, propped up by advertising.
  • yesplorer 7y ago
    Virtually every product is supply-driven demand, propped up by advertising. Beyond food, clothing and shelter, everything else is possibly supply-driven demand.
• mdorazio 7y ago
  I’m in the same boat as you, but a bunch of my friends have smart speakers. For them it’s a convenience thing + not caring overly much about privacy. The ability to query google, set timers, and play music hands free outweighs the creepy factor.
  • jhrmnn 7y ago
    This reminds me a bit of the environmental issues. Most of my friends are aware of the impacts of flying (CO2) and buying stuff (waste), but the negative end results of these things are just too distant and abstract for them to voluntarily strip themselves of the convenience they provide. The difference of course being that the privacy issues impact mostly just the individual, while the environmental issues impact all. But the psychology of it seems similar.
    • leetcrew 7y ago
      I think it may be too abstract for humans to understand intuitively, at least until there is some sort of serious concrete consequence that befalls them. we are finally getting to the point where non-tech people understand the importance of strong passwords. they might fail to actually implement strong passwords, but they can easily understand that it would be really bad if a malicious actor gained access to their banking or email account. it's harder to understand how large-scale data collection is bad for you as an individual. privacy-minded people oppose it on principle, but for most it's hard to imagine a severe consequence in the short term. targeted ads can be kind of unnerving, but it doesn't exactly get people quaking in their boots.
      • SantalBlush 7y ago
        The big companies and government know this. So long as they don't publicly abuse everyone's data, people won't see a problem. They're building everyone's trust, and making data collection normal.
    • zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
      > The difference of course being that the privacy issues impact mostly just the individual That misconception is a huge part of the problem. Lack of privacy of society as a whole is way more dangerous than lack of privacy of individuals, because it completely changes the power landscape.
      • jhrmnn 7y ago
        I agree, but these are second-order effects, so that's even more complex than what I wrote about.
• isoprophlex 7y ago
  It would piss me off to no end to have this shit in my home. Electrical mosquito zappers (those battery powered tennis rackets) are very effective in killing silicon without visible external damage. If someone bugged my apartment like that, I'd give em the high voltage treatment. "Maybe it was a lighting strike?"
  • igetspam 7y ago
    This. I will never understand why people opt in to their own surveillance. I typically don't rent but if I bought a home that had this type of spy gear in it, it would be quickly made inoperable. When I sold it, I'd market it as "privacy oriented" and point to the drill holes as upgrades.
    • kalleboo 7y ago
      So I take it you don’t carry a smartphone? Because they all have the exact same assistants built in.
      • yumraj 7y ago
        Not the OP, but they can be disabled in the phone, and many people, like me, have those disabled.
        • kelnos 7y ago
          If you don't trust Apple/Google enough to have one of their standalone assistants in your home, how can you trust them enough to believe disabling the workalike assistant on your phone actually truly disables it?
          • yumraj 7y ago
            Because I expect, even if naively, for things to work as described. If a phone assistant is disabled, I believe it is indeed disabled. If there is a listening device in the home, I expect it to be listening all the time. I don't understand what the confusion is.
• untog 7y ago
  You're asking the wrong crowd here, really. HN is far more aware of privacy issues than the general Echo-buying public. In my experience most people don't think twice about it. That said, I do think twice about it and I have a Google Home. I also have a baby, and it makes it very easy to play music, turn lights on and off etc. without using my hands (which are usually busy). I wish Apple made a HomePod Mini. I trust them far more with my privacy and Siri can do all the things I do with my Google Home anyway. But at this exact point in my life I'm OK with the privacy trade-off of my Google Home.
  • crankylinuxuser 7y ago
    I fail to understand why we should trust apple. By default, we don't really own the device; we rent it from them at purchase prices. I cannot run my own programs. I cannot add my own app store. I cannot do anything unless Apple has explicitly allowed it. And combined with https://variety.com/2019/digital/news/apple-itunes-privacy-lawsuit-1203226708/ https://variety.com/2019/digital/news/apple-itunes-privacy-l... Shows they are willing and able to get in the pool with Google, Amazon, and Facebook. Trust is when I have power, and grant you some of the power because you are a good steward. In this case, Apple has all the power. And they don't trust you with any.
    • bilbo0s 7y ago
      Yeah, but that lawsuit is bogus. Apple gives developers access to my data only if I click to allow that developer access to my data. Which I, personally, almost never do. But if you do that, then yeah, that developer can take your data and do whatever he wants with it. Which is why you shouldn't do that. You're right about one thing though, and that is Apple not trusting me with most powers. They don't trust me, or anyone else with power. I like that stance. I think that should be the default stance of every company that deals with user data. No one gets access to it without the expressed consent of the user. If you're saying that Apple is giving out your data willy nilly the way FB or Google does, you're just wrong. Now of course, that's a completely different issue than trusting Apple. You should trust no one. And neither should Apple. (To be completely frank, Apple shouldn't even trust you.) What people like about Apple is that they hold up their end of the bargain. They trust no one.
• ravenstine 7y ago
  All I want is a thermostat with a better screen and a UI that doesn't require cycling through abbreviated options. Beyond that, I don't want a "smart home", and especially not one connected directly to FAANG. We don't need these devices, and even non engineers aren't exactly clamoring for them. It's more like everyone just likes the novelty of it all, but is generally disappointed when the devices under deliver. People should reject devices from Amazon. As I have mentioned in other HN threads, I am speaking as someone who quit their job to build a business based on Alexa. You have no real control over such devices, they are prone to flipping on randomly, and most of the advantages are in Amazon's favor. One day, these tech companies might become our literal governments. I'm not going to help them do this because controlling my house with my voice is a neat parlor trick.
  • stronglikedan 7y ago
    > a thermostat with a better screen and a UI that doesn't require cycling through abbreviated options. Love my Ecobee.
    • ravenstine 7y ago
      How would you rate it on a scale of "big tech obtrusiveness"? I ask because I've just moved in to a new condo which has ye olde thermostat that I find impossible to program properly, so I'd like to replace it with a modern one, but unfortunately Nest is owned by Google. :( I'd like something that doesn't connect to the cloud.
      • rnicholus 7y ago
        As an owner of an ecobee, I’d say it falls into the category of “ok” overall. The remote sensors feature is neat, but the home IQ calculator is clearly meaningless. They even managed to mess up weather forecasting. It’s functionally reliable, but definitely some disappointments. In short, it does not really benefit from internet access at all. In fact, I may just disconnect it and see if it still serves me well enough.
• tehjoker 7y ago
  They're selling it to landlords as a means of social control dressed up as a feature for tenants. There have already been legal scuffles around landlords using facial recognition to control their buildings more tightly against poor people. Only organizing can help us here.
• _jal 7y ago
  Yeah, this would be a hard no for me, along with smart locks, Chatroulette-cams preinstalled in the shower, windows that can't be covered, and pre-chosen pets. Although the in-apartment "sentiment analysis" that reports back to your landlord is a lovely touch. I don't know what's wrong with people, either.
  • Freak_NL 7y ago
    > […] and pre-chosen pets. How does that work? You get a complimentary pair of guinea pigs upon signing the lease?
    • stronglikedan 7y ago
      > complimentary pair of guinea pigs Yes, as long as you're not in Peru.
      • xkcd-sucks 7y ago
        Then you get a complimentary (to the wine) pair per day
• netwanderer3 7y ago
  When majority of the public cannot perceive any real benefits from a product and yet it's still being pushed and marketed heavily, it just does not make a lot of sense and really goes against all business principles as the goals are obviously misaligned here. You just sort of know there's something behind the product they are not telling you.
• sp332 7y ago
  Amazon has been working very hard to make this seem normal. Their ads make the device seem super innocuous, the industrial design makes it so you'll probably forget it's there most of the time, the website pushes them really hard right at the top, and now this. They try to make sure that the conversations people have about these devices start on a topic other than privacy, and they mostly succeed.
  • wool_gather 7y ago
    Well...yeah. This is basic 101 marketing. You emphasize the good points of your product, like its convenience, and de-emphasize possible concerns and weaknesses. They'd be doing the same whether or not they were trying to become the Panopticon.
    • sp332 7y ago
      I just think it's important not to blame users for being super irresponsible or gullible or plain thoughtless when they're up against a (nearly) trillion-dollar corporation.
• snarf21 7y ago
  I got asked this question by someone at work just yesterday. In the end, it is as simple as do you trust Apple, Google and Amazon? Do you trust that there are enough good people working on these projects to prevent abuse? I have an Alexa in my bathroom. It is convenient to use to listen to music and check the weather while I get ready. If someone at Amazon (or the NSA) wants to listen in on the things that happen in my bathroom, go right ahead. Very little of my life happens within listening of my bathroom. More importantly, I carry a mobile device with listening capabilities and internet connection in my pocket basically at all times. I can turn off Siri or Hey Google but again I have to trust that it really is off. I have to trust that apps like FB or Twitter aren't recording while I use their apps. Additionally, I can't stop all the people around me from having Siri or Hey Google turned on. This doesn't even cover the ability for a 0-day to be exploitable on all handsets and used by a state level actor. I unfortunately think the ship has sailed on complete privacy in today's online world. Everyone is being tracked, today to sell ads but a dystopian future is largely inevitable. Our mobile phones are tracked but also our digital payments and our cars as we go through tolls (or completely if you have on-star or wi-fi cars) and our movements as we use ride-share and even our walking as traffic cameras are extended with facial recognition. The only way out is to be completely off grid in a self-sustaining farm.
  • rapind 7y ago
    Some significant wide spread hacks / ransoms could bring that ship back to port real quick.
  • ryandrake 7y ago
    > I have an Alexa in my bathroom. It is convenient to use to listen to music and check the weather while I get ready. Get ready for your mind to be blown, but I actually managed to do that as early as 1983 with a clock radio plugged into the wall. Plus it didn’t listen to my conversations or send analytics about me to a company either. I think this technology was around even earlier but not sure since I was a kid. We were truly ahead of times back then!
    • ddingus 7y ago
• asdkhadsj 7y ago
  I think I want the services, IF they were useful. Currently they're invasive and not useful. I would love to tinker with an fully offline smart home but it's not something I've invested time into. For me to give up my privacy though I'd need a ton of hugely useful features. Something none of them has. The pointlessness of all the features is why I entirely left Googles ecosystem. I gave up a lot for a really, really dumb interface. If I have to specially craft my conversation with the AI, I don't want to give up my privacy for it.
  • Jorge1o1 7y ago
    I personally get a lot of use out of the devices. “Alexa set a timer for 7 minutes” when your hands are full in the kitchen is really great. Music in the shower without having to fiddle around with my phone is nice too. Turning off alarms from bed without having to fumble around in the mornings is a bit dangerous, but also a real pleasure. With all that said, I still understand why people are concerned about their privacy, but even without other smart devices, the Echo is really quite useful.
    • jfk13 7y ago
      I suppose it's just me, but I find this "music in the shower" use-case a bit mystifying. Do you take such long showers that whatever you started playing before you got in will finish and you'll need to manually start something else? Or are you unable to just relax for a few minutes in relative quiet, with nothing but the noise of the hot water cascading over you?
      • asdkhadsj 7y ago
        I mean, I'd love that if I could do it. I don't always have music in the shower but when I do I quite enjoy it. Unfortunately those verbal AIs do a terrible job at understanding artist names and song names in my experience. Plus I have difficulty remembering exactly what the songs are called lol. Not a great interface for me.
  • kaybe 7y ago
    You can get an open-source version and run it on your own hardware if you really want it. Some examples are here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19806081 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19806081
• brownbat 7y ago
  I like being able to control the lights and temp in my house from anywhere. I like being able to play music with my voice. I use those features pretty regularly. But... I have a phone for these things, and real speakers for the music. So even though I'm not quite as much a privacy hawk, smart speakers still mystify me. They seem like a phone that you can't watch anything on or take anywhere.
• yumraj 7y ago
  For what it's worth, I feel the same way as you - so you're not alone. I keep talking about the privacy issue to whoever will listen, but you're right that it seems most people don't care, even the people who work in the tech industry in the Bay Area. So, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• crucifiction 7y ago
  It is an ROI decision. Almost everyone on the planet now carries around an echo-equivalent in their pocket all day, that also happens to have video, GPS, text and call data, and as such is a far more significant personal privacy concern than a smart speaker in a kitchen. However, most people do so because the benefit outweighs the concern. Same with smart speakers. Whats the difference from having an Alexa and having your phone on the same counter from a privacy concern perspective? It is effectively 0.
  • apazzolini 7y ago
    The difference is I trust Apple to keep my data secure a fuckload more than I trust Amazon.
    • tomc1985 7y ago
      Not to mention Siri can be completely disabled and the iPhone will warn you when the mic is hot
• RugnirViking 7y ago
  For what it's worth, I'm at university and this is a topic i've discussed with friends several times - as far as we are concerned, this feels a product for older people, who have a family.
• anbop 7y ago
  I use the voice activated services a lot. It helps turn off the lights in the house while I am watching my kid so I don’t have to drag her up and down the stairs. It helps maintain lots of timers, and grocery lists, and play music when I’ve got my hands full with my kids. I’ve set up some things to only work when I say “please” and make sure I say thank you to the device every time it does something, to teach manners. My life is pretty pedestrian and my indulgences are simple. I frankly wouldn’t really mind a 24/7 video feed of my house excluding my bedroom and bathroom broadcast publicly.
• RobLach 7y ago
  Anecdotally I’ve noticed that it’s mostly people aged 35+ buying these things whereas millennials and younger people think it’s creepy.
  • skinnymuch 7y ago
    I haven’t come across many if any Normal every day 21+ people finding it creepy. Useless perhaps, but not creepy to point of that’s the reason they won’t buy or use it.
• nradov 7y ago
  Those "time saving" smart home devices are such garbage. We end up wasting more time on technical support and system administration than we save.
• momokoko 7y ago
  I think you are forgetting that with rental properties, the customers are typically the landlords not the tenants. And we know from history that landlords will often install things that their tenants would much rather they didn't. Airbnb hosts are a very large segment of smart home early adopters.