7 ms·

And for those who disbelieve the 'it isn't reliable' story, I've got some worthless evaluation boards you can have where the mini-USB plug will no longer reliab

And for those who disbelieve the 'it isn't reliable' story, I've got some worthless evaluation boards you can have where the mini-USB plug will no longer reliably hold on to a USB cable. Not a data set I realize, but I was glad when people switched to micro which has proven more reliable for me. Of course lightning was better still but alas Apple wasn't going to share that with the world so we have USB C.

pathartl 7y ago
Yeah I recently moved to a Galaxy S10 which is my first device I use on a regular basis that has a USB-C port. The size of the connector, reversible nature, data throughput, and power throughput are excellent. The interconnect itself though leaves a bit to be desired. I still think that lightning is more satisfying from a tactile standpoint. I think USB still has the issue of the floating spade in the female connector. When inserting a cable, I will sometimes catch the spade and I often worry about if this degrades the life of the connector.
- neltnerb 7y ago
  I've found my biggest issue is that over many months it gets a thin film of grime deep inside that I have to pick out with a needle to make it work again properly. Micro and C both, but with C it's way easier to break the contacts while cleaning.
  - chronogram 7y ago
    Try a wooden toothpick instead of a metal needle.
    - virgilp 7y ago
      Wooden toothpicks are often too thick. My swiss army knife has a flat plastic toothpick that seems to have been designed exactly for the job of cleaning USB-C ports: https://i.redd.it/79iesas532521.jpg https://i.redd.it/79iesas532521.jpg
      - martyvis 7y ago
        Cut a corner at an oblique angle and it makes the perfect implement.
      - lpcvoid 7y ago
        Thanks, that is a neat idea! What also works are these plastic cocktail sticks that are used for little appetizers on partys.
      - gumby 7y ago
        If you look at the minutes of the committee meetings you'll see this was an explicit design choice. (Actually I'm kidding, but it would make a funny rumour.) Edit: curse you HN for the otherwise sensible collapsing of blank lines..makes these jokes harder.
  - masklinn 7y ago
    Lightning has the same issue. And while there's more space, the springy pins are also part of the socket rather than the plug so it's a bit iffy.
- GordonS 7y ago
  > The size of the connector, reversible nature The non-reversible nature of USB A connectors drives me crazy - is it only me that ends up turning them and failing at least 3 times before they slot in?!
  - watersb 7y ago
    http://innoculous.com/2016/01/the-quantum-physics-of-usb-plugs/ http://innoculous.com/2016/01/the-quantum-physics-of-usb-plu...
    - GordonS 7y ago
      Haha, love it, it's not just me then!
iforgotpassword 7y ago
I don't have issues believing that, but I still kinda need an ELI5 of why micro is more durable. The accepted answer on SO briefly addresses it but I'm not really any wiser, maybe in part because I'm not a native speaker.
- Kliment 7y ago
  For the mini, the wobbly springy bits are in the device, for the micro the wobbly springy bits are in the cable. The cable is cheaper and easier to replace. The springy bits bend out of shape over time and fail.
  - ChuckMcM 7y ago
    That is an excellent way to put it, I'm going to steal that if you don't mind.
    - Kliment 7y ago
      I don't mind in the slightest. Use any way you please.
  - iforgotpassword 7y ago
    Now that truly qualifies as a concise ELI5. Well done. :-)
  - megaremote 7y ago
    I still don't get this: https://i2.wp.com/www.cheapharddrivesstorage.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/c-appleus-lightning-smartphone-cable-type-_micro-usb-vs-mini-usb-c-appleus-lightning-connector-smartphone-cable-to-hdmi-cables-u-adapters.jpg https://i2.wp.com/www.cheapharddrivesstorage.com/wp-content/...
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      Here is a mini usb socket showing the metal latch that pushes into the plug: https://image.dhgate.com/albu_198781941_00/1.0x0.jpg https://image.dhgate.com/albu_198781941_00/1.0x0.jpg Here is the other side of the micro usb plug, showing the two metal latches that push into the socket: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/OesAAOSwxu5ZF07R/s-l300.jpg https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/OesAAOSwxu5ZF07R/s-l300.jpg And like someone else said, that ain't a micro usb socket in your image.
mc32 7y ago
USB-C usability on laptops for peripherals and especially power is bad. The connectors become loose and come out with little resistance. For charging even barrel connectors were better, but prefer the magnetic connectors.
- aeternus 7y ago
  Magnetic really seems great for connections, I wonder why it isn't used more.
  - mntmoss 7y ago
    With nicer connectors, and non-standard connectors, there's usually additional manufacturing cost involved that makes for expensive plugs and cables. As such the standards get driven by every manufacturer wanting to save a few pennies on I/O, while acknowledging that some applications might prefer quick removal or a secure lock. I have a pair of high-end AKG headphones that uses a "mini-XLR" connection. This is a non-standard variant of the popular 3-pin XLR used throughout pro audio equipment. When the provided cable that converts mini-XLR to 3.5mm TRS started failing, I went onto Amazon and found a generic $11 cable, but within a week of use it became clear that it was poorly made, with a metal cap acting as the only source of strain relief. I've ordered another adapter, one that adapts the plug to 3.5mm without a cable, and it also costs $11. Not as bad cost-wise as some Apple device cables, but fingers crossed.
  - q3k 7y ago
    There being an Apple patent [1] involved doesn't help. [1] - https://patents.google.com/patent/US7311526B2/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US7311526B2/en
    - GuB-42 7y ago
      Apple didn't make the first magnetic connector. It was already common for fondue sets. The patent is about Apple's particular implementation. I suppose it wouldn't be that hard to work around if people really wanted to.
gumby 7y ago
> Of course lightning was better still but alas Apple wasn't going to share that with the world so we have USB C. Apple was a major contributor to the Type C design, and learning from the limitations of lighting were reflected in its design. Like you I really like the small profile of lightning, but the design of the Type C connector does have two important advantages thanks to its shell/shroud design: 1 - The "springy" piece that deforms is the cable not the receptacle. That means when the connection becomes flimsy this is more likely to be the replaceable cables (though some of the cables can be pricy, it's likely still cheaper than replacing the device) 2 - the shroud is ground and is longer than the pins, thus you have a ground connection before you get to any signal or power (like the longer ground pin in UK and Schuko connectors. This doesn't matter much for a USB2 cable but is a safety issue when you have 100W on the cable. And back to Apple: much as lightning is good for them, it isn't really an instrument of MFI enforcement; they can enforce that just as well with type C. They already have type C iPads so I expect they'll gradually abandon lightning. The iPod 30-pin connector lasted about 9 years and lightning is 7 years old so this isn't unreasonable. And I believe it would make the EU happy.
- DannyBee 7y ago
  "Apple was a major contributor to the Type C design" Citation? As far as i know, it was created almost entirely by a team at Google, and the agreement to get Apple on board was to not publicize this fact. Which is really sad, because then John Gruber then went off and credited their work to Apple without bothering to fact check it. IIRC, Apple was not even at the USB meeting where it was first presented. I'm sure post coming on board Apple contributed, but yeah. (Various xooglers and others have confirmed all this publicly now, AFAIK)
  - bigdubs 7y ago
    One interesting data point (though I really don't care where this all leads): 18 of the 79 named engineers worked for Apple. https://www.docdroid.net/uf3z/typec.pdf https://www.docdroid.net/uf3z/typec.pdf My sense is the spec was designed by a consortium and no one company owns it, but I would bet Apple did contribute lessons from lightning to it.
oceanghost 7y ago
To add to your post. I was part of an effort to develop several remote controls for a company. The micro USB was always the first thing that died. Like you, I had a graveyard of broken remotes. Dozens.
kalleboo 7y ago
Oddly enough I've actually had much worse reliability with Lightning than with MicroUSB. Our home has suffered bad from corroded power pins[0]. What happens is you have one lightning cable with a bad contact, and that causes electric arcing to corrode the power pin in the phone, and now the phone will have bad contact with any new cable you bring in, causing arcing on that cable. Now if you have multiple devices in a household sharing the same charging cables, the "plague" spreads. The only solution is to buy all new chargers, iPhones and iPads all at the same time. [0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/lightning-cables-failing-due-to-corrosion/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/lightning-cables-failing-due-t...
- sbierwagen 7y ago
  I would be very surprised if you were getting arc damage with five volts at two amps. More plausible would be some electrochemical/galvanic corrosion effect.
- gowld 7y ago
  Arcing and corrosion isn't contagious. Humidity causes arcing and corrosion; corrosion would prevent arcing for the same reason it would prevent charging -- it increases resistance.
  - kalleboo 7y ago
    Then what IS the explanation for all of our lightning cables quickly developing blackened and pitted power pins? This was the only explanation I could find.
    - jhayward 7y ago
      There were a number of people posting in forums about this back in 2014 or so. Apple even went so far as to contact folks and ask them to send the cables in for analysis. As far as I know, the consensus was that perhaps the port contact spring was failing to maintain a good connection. I don't know what the current status is but it doesn't seem to be an inherent design issue, except for the fact that the port has the springy bits and isn't easily replaced.
rstuart4133 7y ago
> Of course lightning was better still but alas Apple wasn't going to share that with the world so we have USB C. And for me USB-C has been the most unreliable connector by far - I've had more of them fail that any prior sort of USB connector. But that comes with a caveat - it's always the cables that fail. Replace the cable and it's all good again. I'm coming to accept the fact that any USB-C cable used daily will have to be replaced within the year, which is really annoying. The USB micro A connector is far more reliable.

pathartl 7y ago

Yeah I recently moved to a Galaxy S10 which is my first device I use on a regular basis that has a USB-C port. The size of the connector, reversible nature, data throughput, and power throughput are excellent. The interconnect itself though leaves a bit to be desired. I still think that lightning is more satisfying from a tactile standpoint. I think USB still has the issue of the floating spade in the female connector. When inserting a cable, I will sometimes catch the spade and I often worry about if this degrades the life of the connector.

neltnerb 7y ago
I've found my biggest issue is that over many months it gets a thin film of grime deep inside that I have to pick out with a needle to make it work again properly. Micro and C both, but with C it's way easier to break the contacts while cleaning.
- chronogram 7y ago
  Try a wooden toothpick instead of a metal needle.
  - virgilp 7y ago
    Wooden toothpicks are often too thick. My swiss army knife has a flat plastic toothpick that seems to have been designed exactly for the job of cleaning USB-C ports: https://i.redd.it/79iesas532521.jpg https://i.redd.it/79iesas532521.jpg
    - martyvis 7y ago
      Cut a corner at an oblique angle and it makes the perfect implement.
    - lpcvoid 7y ago
      Thanks, that is a neat idea! What also works are these plastic cocktail sticks that are used for little appetizers on partys.
    - gumby 7y ago
      If you look at the minutes of the committee meetings you'll see this was an explicit design choice. (Actually I'm kidding, but it would make a funny rumour.) Edit: curse you HN for the otherwise sensible collapsing of blank lines..makes these jokes harder.
- masklinn 7y ago
  Lightning has the same issue. And while there's more space, the springy pins are also part of the socket rather than the plug so it's a bit iffy.
GordonS 7y ago
> The size of the connector, reversible nature The non-reversible nature of USB A connectors drives me crazy - is it only me that ends up turning them and failing at least 3 times before they slot in?!
- watersb 7y ago
  http://innoculous.com/2016/01/the-quantum-physics-of-usb-plugs/ http://innoculous.com/2016/01/the-quantum-physics-of-usb-plu...
  - GordonS 7y ago
    Haha, love it, it's not just me then!

iforgotpassword 7y ago

I don't have issues believing that, but I still kinda need an ELI5 of why micro is more durable. The accepted answer on SO briefly addresses it but I'm not really any wiser, maybe in part because I'm not a native speaker.

Kliment 7y ago
For the mini, the wobbly springy bits are in the device, for the micro the wobbly springy bits are in the cable. The cable is cheaper and easier to replace. The springy bits bend out of shape over time and fail.
- ChuckMcM 7y ago
  That is an excellent way to put it, I'm going to steal that if you don't mind.
  - Kliment 7y ago
    I don't mind in the slightest. Use any way you please.
- iforgotpassword 7y ago
  Now that truly qualifies as a concise ELI5. Well done. :-)
- megaremote 7y ago
  I still don't get this: https://i2.wp.com/www.cheapharddrivesstorage.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/c-appleus-lightning-smartphone-cable-type-_micro-usb-vs-mini-usb-c-appleus-lightning-connector-smartphone-cable-to-hdmi-cables-u-adapters.jpg https://i2.wp.com/www.cheapharddrivesstorage.com/wp-content/...
  - Dylan16807 7y ago
    Here is a mini usb socket showing the metal latch that pushes into the plug: https://image.dhgate.com/albu_198781941_00/1.0x0.jpg https://image.dhgate.com/albu_198781941_00/1.0x0.jpg Here is the other side of the micro usb plug, showing the two metal latches that push into the socket: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/OesAAOSwxu5ZF07R/s-l300.jpg https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/OesAAOSwxu5ZF07R/s-l300.jpg And like someone else said, that ain't a micro usb socket in your image.

mc32 7y ago

USB-C usability on laptops for peripherals and especially power is bad. The connectors become loose and come out with little resistance. For charging even barrel connectors were better, but prefer the magnetic connectors.

aeternus 7y ago
Magnetic really seems great for connections, I wonder why it isn't used more.
- mntmoss 7y ago
  With nicer connectors, and non-standard connectors, there's usually additional manufacturing cost involved that makes for expensive plugs and cables. As such the standards get driven by every manufacturer wanting to save a few pennies on I/O, while acknowledging that some applications might prefer quick removal or a secure lock. I have a pair of high-end AKG headphones that uses a "mini-XLR" connection. This is a non-standard variant of the popular 3-pin XLR used throughout pro audio equipment. When the provided cable that converts mini-XLR to 3.5mm TRS started failing, I went onto Amazon and found a generic $11 cable, but within a week of use it became clear that it was poorly made, with a metal cap acting as the only source of strain relief. I've ordered another adapter, one that adapts the plug to 3.5mm without a cable, and it also costs $11. Not as bad cost-wise as some Apple device cables, but fingers crossed.
- q3k 7y ago
  There being an Apple patent [1] involved doesn't help. [1] - https://patents.google.com/patent/US7311526B2/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US7311526B2/en
  - GuB-42 7y ago
    Apple didn't make the first magnetic connector. It was already common for fondue sets. The patent is about Apple's particular implementation. I suppose it wouldn't be that hard to work around if people really wanted to.

gumby 7y ago

> Of course lightning was better still but alas Apple wasn't going to share that with the world so we have USB C. Apple was a major contributor to the Type C design, and learning from the limitations of lighting were reflected in its design. Like you I really like the small profile of lightning, but the design of the Type C connector does have two important advantages thanks to its shell/shroud design: 1 - The "springy" piece that deforms is the cable not the receptacle. That means when the connection becomes flimsy this is more likely to be the replaceable cables (though some of the cables can be pricy, it's likely still cheaper than replacing the device) 2 - the shroud is ground and is longer than the pins, thus you have a ground connection before you get to any signal or power (like the longer ground pin in UK and Schuko connectors. This doesn't matter much for a USB2 cable but is a safety issue when you have 100W on the cable. And back to Apple: much as lightning is good for them, it isn't really an instrument of MFI enforcement; they can enforce that just as well with type C. They already have type C iPads so I expect they'll gradually abandon lightning. The iPod 30-pin connector lasted about 9 years and lightning is 7 years old so this isn't unreasonable. And I believe it would make the EU happy.

DannyBee 7y ago
"Apple was a major contributor to the Type C design" Citation? As far as i know, it was created almost entirely by a team at Google, and the agreement to get Apple on board was to not publicize this fact. Which is really sad, because then John Gruber then went off and credited their work to Apple without bothering to fact check it. IIRC, Apple was not even at the USB meeting where it was first presented. I'm sure post coming on board Apple contributed, but yeah. (Various xooglers and others have confirmed all this publicly now, AFAIK)
- bigdubs 7y ago
  One interesting data point (though I really don't care where this all leads): 18 of the 79 named engineers worked for Apple. https://www.docdroid.net/uf3z/typec.pdf https://www.docdroid.net/uf3z/typec.pdf My sense is the spec was designed by a consortium and no one company owns it, but I would bet Apple did contribute lessons from lightning to it.

oceanghost 7y ago

To add to your post. I was part of an effort to develop several remote controls for a company. The micro USB was always the first thing that died. Like you, I had a graveyard of broken remotes. Dozens.

kalleboo 7y ago

Oddly enough I've actually had much worse reliability with Lightning than with MicroUSB. Our home has suffered bad from corroded power pins[0]. What happens is you have one lightning cable with a bad contact, and that causes electric arcing to corrode the power pin in the phone, and now the phone will have bad contact with any new cable you bring in, causing arcing on that cable. Now if you have multiple devices in a household sharing the same charging cables, the "plague" spreads. The only solution is to buy all new chargers, iPhones and iPads all at the same time. [0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/lightning-cables-failing-due-to-corrosion/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/lightning-cables-failing-due-t...

sbierwagen 7y ago
I would be very surprised if you were getting arc damage with five volts at two amps. More plausible would be some electrochemical/galvanic corrosion effect.
gowld 7y ago
Arcing and corrosion isn't contagious. Humidity causes arcing and corrosion; corrosion would prevent arcing for the same reason it would prevent charging -- it increases resistance.
- kalleboo 7y ago
  Then what IS the explanation for all of our lightning cables quickly developing blackened and pitted power pins? This was the only explanation I could find.
  - jhayward 7y ago
    There were a number of people posting in forums about this back in 2014 or so. Apple even went so far as to contact folks and ask them to send the cables in for analysis. As far as I know, the consensus was that perhaps the port contact spring was failing to maintain a good connection. I don't know what the current status is but it doesn't seem to be an inherent design issue, except for the fact that the port has the springy bits and isn't easily replaced.

rstuart4133 7y ago

> Of course lightning was better still but alas Apple wasn't going to share that with the world so we have USB C. And for me USB-C has been the most unreliable connector by far - I've had more of them fail that any prior sort of USB connector. But that comes with a caveat - it's always the cables that fail. Replace the cable and it's all good again. I'm coming to accept the fact that any USB-C cable used daily will have to be replaced within the year, which is really annoying. The USB micro A connector is far more reliable.