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Security Company Building an International Database of Banned Bar Patrons
- koolba 7y ago> When a bargoer visits another PatronScan bar and swipes their ID, their previously flagged transgressions will pop up on the kiosk screen. Unless patrons successfully appeal their status to PatronScan or the bar directly, their status can follow them for anywhere from a couple weeks to a few months, to much, much longer. “Appeal” to a private company to seek what’s effectively forced arbitration only ends one way en masse. This sounds horrible. I hope there’s some legit privacy regulations passed to ban passive practices like this. Scanning an ID locally to check for duplicates that night sounds reasonable. Auto uploading it without notifying patrons to a central DB is not.
- kevin_b_er 7y agoUnder political goals of the removal of regulations and privatization, this will increasingly become the norm. Under private interests, you have no fundamental rights because the writers of founding document of the United States didn't not foresee the level of control the rich and corporate would truly have in this modern era. It offers no protection against abuse by powerful private interests that it does against government.
- fuzz4lyfe 7y ago>because the writers of founding document of the United States didn't not foresee the level of control the rich and corporate would truly have in this modern era They did, that's why they limited the power of the federal government to interstate commerce and defence. It was later generations that decided interstate commerce means activities that take place in a single state[0] and that we should use legal trickery to get around the protections they created. [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn
- mc32 7y agoThat’s a problem. It’s also a problem that for something that can be a violation or misdemeanor can follow you across state and international boundaries... On another note, how are 18 - 20 year olds going to get into bars? I guess the wristband/no drinks will be the norm for them.
- sneak 7y agoUltimately, it is up to the bar to decide whether or not they want to use this system. Their bar, their rules. I show my ID to bouncers, in my hand, to avoid the common practice these days of putting it into a scanner and logging my data. If that’s not good enough for them, I go somewhere else.
- onion2k 7y agoUltimately, it is up to the bar to decide whether or not they want to use this system. Their bar, their rules. How long will it be before company behind it are lobbying cities to make it a license requirement for every bar to use their system?
- droithomme 7y ago> How long will it be before company behind it are lobbying cities to make it a license requirement for every bar to use their system? According to the article, it's zero minutes, because it specifically says they are already doing that lobbying. This won't be just for bars, it'll be for restaurants that serve beer, liquor stores, gas stations, and supermarkets. Any place selling alcohol, cigarettes, spray paint, knives, guns, etc., anything that requires id.
- smelendez 7y ago> Scanning an ID locally to check for duplicates that night sounds reasonable. Potentially? What if a customer leaves and then comes back after a shift change?
- phkahler 7y agoStamp their arm when they exit.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- droithomme 7y agoI don't comprehend this duplicates thing. If your face and body doesn't match the photo and appearance description on the license, then the bouncer should reject you at that point. Using the machine suggests all they are doing is running the scan, pulling your data, and giving a green or red light to enter. So you can be a 16 yr old boy and come in with the id of his 89 yr old great-grandmother and the machine gives a green light because the id isn't fake. Unless the bouncer is looking at the photo. And now you don't need to scan and store for duplicates because the bouncer will catch that you're not the person on the id. Databases, hand stamping, and other methods are all much more complex and less effective and sensible than the bouncer simply checking the id.
- liability 7y agoExactly right. The "duplicate ID" narrative is a BS non-issue being used to pretty up this nonsense with a "think of the children" angle.
- smelendez 7y agoYou could conceivably have a situation where a 21-year-old exits the bar, slips his ID to his similar looking 19-year-old brother or cousin, and gets him into the bar. I'm sure this happens, but I doubt it's really a major problem.
- 7y ago
- _jal 7y agoLook down the road a bit. This is the "social credit system" for western nations forming. I only know how this works in the US, so I'm concentrating on it. Firms like this that succeed will be bought out and rolled in to the existing credit firms as new dimensions. (They already track much more than your credit use - google "experian data services", and substitute the other two in as well.) It is private, so in the US there is little regulation to worry about. And the third-party doctrine means no warrants are required for LEO access. Can you smell the freedom yet?
- trophycase 7y agoThis is the real issue IMO. Any time I see people complain about data breaches or something they seem to be missing the point and diverting away from the true issues
- basementcat 7y agoNo worries. Just don't forget to get your free annual "Drink Establishment Behavior Report" free from Experian/Equifax/TransUnion if you live in New York or California. Alternatively, just pay a low low price of $1 a month for our "Bar Behavior Report" monitoring service!
- metildaa 7y agoR Place in Seattle uses an internet connected ID scanning system. Super sketchy, they do not ask consent to scan or answer any questions about how data is handled. Programs like this will make it much easier to round up LGBTQ people like myself, enabled by shortsighted management of these spaces implementing mass data collection.
- m463 7y agoOne way to weasel out of this is basically the "grocery store loyalty card" method. Instead of discriminating against people, they could pre-select patrons and move the rest to the end of the bar bouncer's line.
- magduf 7y agoI don't see the problem here. Bars presumably are free to use this system or not, and no one really needs to go to bars anyway. This isn't like being prevented from shopping at a grocery store or getting to work. Honestly, if this system ended up causing a bunch of bars to go out of business, I'd be laughing. Maybe people should find a better way to spend their time than getting drunk.
- xvector 7y agoIt is a social credit system. Social credit systems degrade society.
- mymythisisthis 7y agoAgreed that social credit systems degrade society. Did you ever notice that nice restaurants attract nice customers, and that scummy looking places attract scum. we are perfectly adept at governing ourselves already. It's a solution looking for a problem.
- dazzawazza 7y agoIf you think bars are just for people getting drunk then I think you are the one with the problem.
- bluntfang 7y ago>Bars presumably are free to use this system or not, and no one really needs to go to bars anyway. Until insurance premiums require the service if you want to be able to afford to operate a bar.
- jstarfish 7y agoWe now have bars where people can drink and fling axes around indoors. If the insurance premiums weren't high enough to stop that from happening, I don't see abstaining from user tracking keeping anybody's pub out of business.
- 7y ago
- donarb 7y agoThis happens all the time with people who apply for bank accounts. Chex Systems provides a vetting service for banks. If you ever have a checking account closed by the bank, they report you to Chex Systems who then blacklist you for five years from getting another checking account at the 95% of banks which use Chex. No appealing, no explanation, just blacklisting. https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/blacklisted-by-chexsystems-what-to-know/ https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/blacklisted-by-chexs...
- elbasti 7y agoChex is subject to the FCRA, so at the very least one should be able to appeal (Chex) on the basis of inaccurate information, and to get a report from Chex explaining the information they have on you. As well, if a bank denies you a checking account due to a Chex report, the bank is under obligation of letting you know why (again, thanks to the FCRA). Now, this doesn't mean that it's _fair_ (it isn't), but the law does offer you some measure of transparency.
- NullPrefix 7y agoWouldn't be a problem if GDPR worked in US too.
- vorpalhex 7y agoOh great, a private company promising to store my home address and other sensitive personal details in a database. That surely won't get breached at all, ever, in any way, due to terrible malfeasance of even the most basic security principles. Oh, and combined with lobbying cities to force adoption? Realistically, how do we prevent every blockhead with an unsecured database from hoovering up personal information? Can we start instituting major fines and the requirement to carry liability insurance or something?
- astura 7y agoI can't read TFA because it's paywalled, so I don't know if it talks about the information saved, but they don't need your home address, ID number and issuer is all they need to store as far as PII goes and you don't even have to store those directly - you can encrypt them like a password.
- roywiggins 7y agoYou can brute force an ID number a lot easier than a good password.
- NoInputSignal 7y agoI think OP was asking: even though there are best practices to follow when storing PII, how can we trust every private entity that stores our PII to be using those best practices?
- droithomme 7y agoThe article states that they store in their database your "name, gender, date of birth, zip code, and photo", but currently they don't store your address or id number. The information stored though is certainly sufficient to find your street address and a great deal of other information in almost all cases since a full legal name + DoB + zip code match is nearly always a unique identifier. Storing the id photo is fun and no doubt useful for further tracking of the patron using things such as the cameras on the table kiosks. Also the photo has value for sale to other interested parties.
- 7y ago
- ttoinou 7y agoDoes "patron" mean boss or regular clients ?
- analog31 7y agoIn the US, "patron" of a public establishment is a customer.
- AndyMcConachie 7y agoIn this context "patron" means anyone that goes into a bar, basically customers.
- jtuente 7y agoPatron as a boss is a historical meaning that has largely fallen into disuse.
- womitt 7y agoThis practice can only be stopped if people stop attending any bar that uses this company's technology...
- liability 7y agoUnless there is an aggressive public education campaign, most people will likely be ignorant as to the purpose of the card scanning and the privacy risks. Consumer boycotts are very often ineffective and shouldn't be relied on. This may distress libertarians, but regulation is the only real answer.
- sudosteph 7y agoI mean, laws that regulate data privacy for companies like this could probably help too. I dont think its reasonable to allow storing data from scanned legal ids without explicit, written consent from the ID holder to start.
- imglorp 7y agoCasinos do this too, to boot card counters. They're doing license plates and face rec. https://www.onlinecasinoking.com/insights/casino-id-facial-recognition-technology-used-in-casinos/ https://www.onlinecasinoking.com/insights/casino-id-facial-r...
- Hard_Space 7y agoReadable: https://outline.com/CczEzy https://outline.com/CczEzy
- droobles 7y agoCool, I'll skip those bars if I see them using this.
- chronogram 7y agoOn the other hand, I might want to go to those bars.
- benj111 7y agoRight.... I mean I might want to go to a bar that's full of KKK members, because they serve nice beer. I have 2 choices go there for the beer, and perhaps inadvertently support the KKK, or the bars stance on that. Or I could not drink there. That's my choice, I'm not sure I could go to the anti KKK league rally and complain that I want to drink at that bar.
- apacheCamel 7y agoI think the greatest thing about this is the choice. If you don't like this practice, vote with your wallet. If you do, then the same rules apply. I think the biggest issue a lot of people may have is the possibility that the choice aspect is taken away.
- C1sc0cat 7y agoAh you don't know abut the pressure licencing bodies and local politicians can put on land lords. One pub I used to goto was well know as the only pub in town that did not have bouncers at the weekend.
- ashelmire 7y agoMy general rule is to skip bars that have bouncers, because it means they regularly get a shitty (and sometimes violent) crowd.
- noer 7y agoThat's not necessarily the case. A bar that has a bouncer all the time? It might be that they get a shitty crowd, but a lot of times it's just that the bar is too busy for the bartender to remember which patrons they've checked IDs for. The simpler solution is to have someone stand at the door to check IDs so that every one inside has been checked. I worked at a bar that only had a guy outside on Thursday, Friday and Saturday after 9. The rest of the time it was slow enough that the bartender could just check IDs before the customer was served.
- droithomme 7y agoWill also be useful to keep track of who are good tippers. Also with the little video kiosk things they have at the tables, you can serve them targeted ads. Also, keep track of who they are drinking with, this information is worth good money to someone. Also even if they are polite and never cause problems but drink frequently that's helpful information regarding health risks for setting car and health insurance premiums. As well as evidence to police after a fender bender, will definitely want law enforcement to have access to this info. And maybe they checked a box when applying for life insurance saying they didn't drink, but this proves they did - policy is rescinded after filing the claim. Big savings there. Back to that tipping information, maybe they tip people of certain genders and ethnicities higher than others. This could be useful to prove bias in a discrimination lawsuit if they have hiring authority. Few parties dealing with people in any capacity wouldn't want to pay something for access to this really great database.
- exabrial 7y agoAs long as they're compliant with the credit reporting laws in the USA I don't see a problem with this. Under such laws you may see whats in your file, make corrections to it, and there's a expiration policy for negative behavior.
- duxup 7y agoThere seems to be a real business of making "lists" of things and people to accomplish trust related activities. I know a few folks starting / running companies like this based on just scraping facebook profiles or google results. Most of these seem pretty unscientific / dangerous. Everyone wants to be the key-master.
- kypro 7y agoSounds like it could be useful screening data for employers. Would that be legal to do? It does seem we could use some modern privacy laws to prevent this type of thing occurring...
- astura 7y agoWhy would it be useful? Most employers don't care about if their employees are also bar patrons and bars are a place to socialize - going to bars doesn't mean you're a heavy drinker. I frequently go to bars without drinking more than maybe a sip of alcohol. Either I'm the DD or I simply don't feel like drinking that day and my friends wanna meet up, or even if I just want some food. Doesn't apply to me but people go to see the band as well.
- vkou 7y ago> Why would it be useful? Most employers don't care about if their employees are also bar patrons and going to bars doesn't mean you're a heavy drinker. Most don't care about your personal life. But some care incredibly deeply about it. There are Christian employers in Canada and the United States, who will fire you, if they discover that you, say, had pre-marital sex at some point in your life. Others will fire you for undergoing a medical procedure. Do you think bosses like that give two shits about an employee splitting hairs as to what exactly constitutes living in sin?
- tgsovlerkhgsel 7y agoThe "banned patrons" list may be more interesting than the "patrons" list.
- ThrustVectoring 7y agoPrivate Investigators would absolutely love this dataset, since it could include who got ID'd at what bar when. Can definitely piece together places to try to find someone, people they might know, etc.
- ComodoHacker 7y agoSo it ten years we'll have commercial social credit systems, voluntarily accepted.
- kirykl 7y agoI wonder if this is technically a type of defamation. I'd think the tracking company would need to have some degree of proof as to the "bad behavior" they're sharing with it's member bars to hold up in court.
- sailfast 7y agoNot a lawyer, but I could also see this pretty readily thrown out on discrimination grounds. "Hey, why is it that only people of color get thrown out of your bar?" Or, for the company: "Why is your banned list X% this race vs. the norm and can you prove that you are not aiding in large scale discrimination?"
- ThrustVectoring 7y agoIt absolutely can be. Defamation definitions vary by state, but in general it's something like: 1. A false statement 2. Made to a third party 3. About a specific person 4. That causes damages (eg, to their reputation) If they repeat something false, it absolutely is defamation. Damages could be hard to prove or show - perhaps a business meeting at a bar would qualify. Likely way to use this is through sending the company a demand letter basically saying "remove these false statements from your database or I will sue you for defamation."
- gknoy 7y agoIf all they are doing is recording that one was thrown out of a bar, and the reason _the bar_ says it happened, those are all truthful things. They aren't saying you did that, they're saying that _the bar_ said you did that. It seems rotten, but I'm sure that's the kind of loophole they'd use as defense. :)
- ThrustVectoring 7y agoIt's complicated, but this is explicitly not recognized as a defense by courts. If Alice tells me "Bob says that Charlie started the fire", whether or not that statement is defamatory depends on whether or not Charlie actually started the fire, not on what Bob actually said. The more likely legal defense is Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, which shields online service providers for liability for hosting online content from third parties.
- jokoon 7y agoSocial filtering is often heralded as a great thing to improve society so that its citizen can learn to behave. Survival of the fittest in its greatness. Merit is overrated anyway, so all people have left to do with their lives is sorting and filtering people to pretend they can enjoy a better evening.
- siffland 7y agoeveryone must have way more upscale bars than i do. the 8 or so bars in a 5 mile radius from the house dont even have video cameras, let alone care who enters the bar (as long as they are over 21). I can see where this would be helpful, but i can see most small bars not really caring as long as no one starts a fight.
- jancsika 7y agoWhich is safer-- a municipality where the set of violent patrons is distributed across all its bars, or one that creates a huge incentive to cordon off that set of violent patrons into a few "rough neck" bars? Any relevant research on that topic?
- 52-6F-62 7y agoI'm going to guess the proprietors of this company haven't thought that far ahead, and instead are banking on growing large enough, fast enough, that it won't be their problem.
- jancsika 7y agoVery likely. I mean, I certainly wouldn't be writing a comment like that if I were making money off this type of data mining.
- intopieces 7y agoSeason 3 of The Wire is based around this premise.
- circlefavshape 7y agoInternational? I've never seen an ID scanner outside the US
- smn1234 7y agolargely accurate. Some clubs in London with "VIP services" (bottle service) do scan IDs and maintain some database of patrons
- astura 7y agoI saw one attached to a vending machine in Germany. The vending machine sold alcohol and the ID scan was only for alcohol purchases. I live on the East Coast, I've traveled around the country a fair bit, and I go to bars. I've only seen an ID scanner literally once in my life.
- magduf 7y agoCigarette vending machines in Germany are the same way.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- mattnewton 7y agoTo those people saying this is no big deal because your address is public record and has to be shared to buy things: how would you feel if online retailers put together a private list of problem customers who sent a suspicious number of returns, failed deliveries or other signals? Edit because I was too vague: I am saying multiple online retailers collaborating on a list together that bars customers from purchasing/ returning from all of the participating members. I am aware that companies individually fight return fraud using their own private lists and fraud detection software from external companies.
- astura 7y agoThat already exists https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/08/12/retailers-tracking-customers-returns/2642607/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/08/12/ret... Since you asked, my personal opinion is "I don't care."
- mattnewton 7y agoMy understanding is that is a practice of individual retailers, much like bars individually blacklisting patrons. The original article has them making a nationwide database with potential legislative backing, which is different from that usatoday story, because in that story they are talking about the individual practices of retailers and not a coordinated list.
- vokep 7y agoHow would you feel if it was a single system used by all retailers?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- astura 7y ago1) I'm pretty sure it already is. 2) I still don't care. Just my opinion.
- 7y ago
- JoshTko 7y agoThis system is going to be a nightmare to maintain long term due to bad data (GIGO). Imagine a large number of bar employees able to determine who get's a global bar ban. What prevents an employee from inputting all the people they dislike? Seems like a recipe for failure.
- msla 7y agoThis is a case where you hope it flames out in a big, obvious fashion, with lots and lots of false positives, as opposed to being merely kinda bad with a few unlucky saps being barred (or dis-barred, in this case) but the badness never being serious enough to discredit the concept.
- mjparrott 7y agoAnyone else thinking of George bringing the book into the bathroom at the book store, and getting flagged by every book store in New York? haha
- slig 7y agoIIRC, it was the book that was flagged, not him.
- alkonaut 7y agoCould this fly with GDPR in Europe?